Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Sean Murphy]

I suspect the man in the film is Lovelady. Baker was at the front steps within what? 20 seconds of the shooting? There's no reason to believe Lovelady had left the stairs by then.

Pat, it would be great to identify Prayer Man as Lovelady but it just isn't possible:

i) The Wiegman film shows that during the shooting Prayer Man is standing beside Lovelady in the very same spot that he will show up in seconds later in the Darnell film.

Wiegman:

Darnell:

ii) By the time the post-shooting Darnell frames are being taken, Lovelady and Shelley have--by their own testimony--left the front entrance and are out on the Elm St. 'island' where they will look back and see Truly and Baker about to enter the front entrance.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Sean Murphy]

In this forum thread, once again, we're treated to people using their vivid imaginations to stamp a specific identity on a fuzzy and very indistinct human being seen in a low-quality film/photo.

How in the world can anyone positively say WHO "prayer man" is here? It's impossible.

But that's just the problem--no-one can say who this man is.

It seems reasonable to assume him a TSBD employee. Yet he's none of the TSBD men we know, from all the pertinent snippets of testimony, to have been on the steps at that time:

• he's not Lovelady
• he's not Shelley
• he's not Frazier
• he's not Otis Williams
• he's not Joe Molina.

Any ideas who he might be, David?

[David Von Pein]

What is fascinating me here is the split second timing that could be involved if that is Oswald in the doorway, within inches of Baker as he rushes by. In the time it would take Baker and Truly to come together, formulate a quick plan, try the elevators, discover they don't work and begin ascending the stairs to the second floor, would Oswald have time to enter the building, go directly to the stairs, climb to the second floor and buy a Coke? That is, if he did buy a Coke. That is something else that never seems to be clear.

I think a better question might be:

Why would Oswald have a desire to follow a policeman into the building and then race upstairs to buy a Coke at that exact moment in time?

The above question is a particularly valid one (even to most conspiracists), since almost all CTers, with the exception of J. Raymond, acknowledge the fact that Oswald was most certainly "involved" in the assassination "plot" in some manner.

In that set of circumstances (with Oswald involved in some plan to kill the President), can anyone imagine LHO wanting to go back inside the building from which shots had just been fired?

Given the make-believe fantasy scenario I just outlined, wouldn't Oswald be much better off just staying outside the building entirely?

In reality, of course, Oswald was inside the building when those Couch (or Darnell?) and Wiegman images were taken. Lee Harvey, at that time, was in the process of hiding his rifle between boxes on the sixth floor and then hurrying down the back stairs after having just fired three shots at the President.

As to the identity of "Praying Man" -- I do not know. But I'm not quite sure why it couldn't be Wesley Frazier. Wesley even stated specifically at the 1986 mock trial that he was standing "back up in the shadows", a few steps behind Lovelady.

BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER'S MOCK TRIAL TESTIMONY

There's also the fact that Oswald told the world that he was INSIDE the building when the shooting took place. Now, yes, Oswald was a world-class xxxx (to be sure), but don't you think that if he had REALLY been "praying man", he would have said he was OUTSIDE the building, on the steps? Wouldn't that TRUTH (if it had, indeed, been the truth) have been so much better for Oswald than the LIE that apparently many conspiracy believers think he told when he said this at 7:55 PM CST on 11/22/63?:

REPORTER -- "Did you shoot the President?"

LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "I work in that building."

REPORTER -- "Were you in the building at the time?"

LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir."

Audio: http://app.box.com/shared/5mto6y3w4k

Or do some conspiracy theorists actually think that being on the steps in front of the building is pretty much the same thing as being INSIDE the Depository Building? In my opinion, that's a silly argument. If someone is standing on those TSBD steps, they are OUTSIDE the building itself. They aren't "inside".

Edited August 18, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Richard Hocking]

In this forum thread, once again, we're treated to people using their vivid imaginations to stamp a specific identity on a fuzzy and very indistinct human being seen in a low-quality film/photo.

How in the world can anyone positively say WHO "prayer man" is here? It's impossible.

But that's just the problem--no-one can say who this man is.

It seems reasonable to assume him a TSBD employee. Yet he's none of the TSBD men we know, from all the pertinent snippets of testimony, to have been on the steps at that time:

• he's not Lovelady
• he's not Shelley
• he's not Frazier
• he's not Otis Williams
• he's not Joe Molina.

Any ideas who he might be, David?

If you look closely at the picture/film clip, there is a tall man with dark hair standing at the top of the steps (shadow area) in the center of the stairway where the rail is. This is exactly where Frazier claimed he stood in his WC testimony. Frazier was just over 6' tall.

[Sean Murphy]

As to the identity of "Praying Man" -- I do not know. But I'm not quite sure why it couldn't be Wesley Frazier. Wesley even stated specifically at the 1986 mock trial that he was standing "back up in the shadows", a few steps behind Lovelady.

BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER'S MOCK TRIAL TESTIMONY

It's not Frazier, David. His WC testimony unequivocally puts him by the centre rail, not over by the wall.

Now, do you

• agree that it is reasonable to assume that Prayer Man is a TSBD employee?
• have any idea which TSBD employee he might be?

Edited August 18, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[David Von Pein]

It's not Frazier, David. His WC testimony unequivocally puts him by the centre rail, not over by the wall.

Oh sure. That center rail is MILES from where "Praying Man" is saying grace.

[Sean Murphy]

It's not Frazier, David. His WC testimony unequivocally puts him by the centre rail, not over by the wall.

Oh sure. That center rail is MILES from where "Praying Man" is saying grace.

Oh dear. Let's have a look at what Wesley actually said, shall we?

Mr. BALL - When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

Question for you, David: who would you say is closer to the wall--Lovelady or Prayer Man?

Edited September 6, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Martin Hinrichs]

In reality, of course, Oswald was inside the building when those Couch (or Darnell?) and Wiegman images were taken. Lee Harvey, at that time, was in the process of hiding his rifle between boxes on the sixth floor and then hurrying down the back stairs after having just fired three shots at the President.

It was Malcolm Couch and Dave Wiegman who filmed the Elm street sequence close to the shots.

Darnell started to film later capturing the Elm spectators.

Wiegman started to film approx 4 seconds before the headshot and Couch roughly some 10 sesonds after.

Your point is valid and what you wrote is good.

To me, it is very strange, while reading the testimony of Couch, that he did not record the crime scene even when knowing it.

He was hinted by Jackson to look up to the TSBD because Jackson saw a rifle.

Couch did and confirmed to saw the rifle.

Then Couch searched for his camera on the footroom of the car with success, beginning to film the Grassy Knoll???¿¿¿

That makes zero sense to me.

To see a rifle after hearing shots and then to neglect the source?

No go for a camera man.

This is a good example of guided testimonies of the WC.

Martin

[David Von Pein]

Question for you, David: who would you say is closer to the wall--Lovelady or Prayer Man?

Is it okay with you if I just pretend that the films are fakes? (That explanation usually works for the conspiracy theorists. Maybe I should try that approach more often and see how far it gets me.) :-)

[Sean Murphy]

Question for you, David: who would you say is closer to the wall--Lovelady or Prayer Man?

Is it okay with you if I just pretend that the films are fakes? (That explanation usually works for the conspiracy theorists. Maybe I should try that approach more often and see how far it gets me.) :-)

Question for you, David: who would you say is closer to the wall--Lovelady or Prayer Man?

[David Von Pein]

Your point is valid and what you wrote is good.

To me, it is very strange, while reading the testimony of Couch, that he did not record the crime scene even when knowing it.

He was hinted by Jackson to look up to the TSBD because Jackson saw a rifle.

Couch did and confirmed to saw the rifle.

Then Couch searched for his camera on the footroom of the car with success, beginning to film the Grassy Knoll???

That makes zero sense to me.

To see a rifle after hearing shots and then to neglect the source?

No go for a camera man.

This is a good example of guided testimonies of the WC.

I had never really thought of it from that perspective before, Martin. Not a bad point. But, on the other hand, we must consider other things too -- the fact that Couch was riding in a moving car as he filmed. I guess he could have jumped out of the camera car [as Wiegman did] and rush inside the TSBD to film in there or film the upper floors of the building where he saw the gun. But in the latter possibility, Couch knew the gun had already been pulled back inside, so he might have thought "What's the point of filming an empty window?" (even Dillard wasn't fast enough with his camera to capture the gun or the assassin in the window, and he snapped his picture just seconds after Bob Jackson shouted "There's the rifle!").

Plus, Couch could easily see that a lot of confusion was taking place near the Grassy Knoll (the direction his camera car was taking him anyway), so what was he supposed to do under those circumstances? He merely filmed what was handy to film at that chaotic moment, and he'd already passed the Depository.

And this quote of yours, Martin, is not an accurate (or fair) remark at all:

"This is a good example of guided testimonies of the WC." -- M. Hinrichs

How do I know it's not a fair statement? Because we don't need to rely ONLY on what Mal Couch told the Warren Commission months after the assassination. Fortunately for us, we've got the audio of Couch saying that he saw the rifle sticking out of the "fifth or sixth floor" window of the TSBD. And he said that on live WFAA-Radio within just an hour or two of the shooting on November 22nd. Listen to him say it below:

DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com/MAL COUCH

BTW, after Couch's camera car went under the Triple Underpass, he did jump out of the car and run back to the Depository:

Mr. BELIN - Did you take any pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself?

Mr. COUCH - Not of the south side at the moment. After we went, say, 50 to 75 feet on down Elm, uh - we began to hang on because the driver picked up speed. We got down under the - I think there's three trestles there, three crossings underneath the - uh - at the very bottom of Elm Street -

Mr. BELIN - Is that what they call the triple underpass?

Mr. COUCH - Right. And - uh - I think, as I recall, right after we made the turn on Elm, one or two of the fellows jumped out. But after we got all the way down underneath the three trestles we finally persuaded the driver - who wasn't to anxious to stop - to stop and - uh - we all jumped out. And I ran, I guess it was about 75 yards or a little more back up to the School Depository Building and took some sweeping pictures of the crowd standing around. I didn't stay there long.

Edited August 18, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Richard Hocking]

It's not Frazier, David. His WC testimony unequivocally puts him by the centre rail, not over by the wall.

Oh sure. That center rail is MILES from where "Praying Man" is saying grace.

Oh dear. Let's have a look at what Wesley actually said, shall we?

Mr. BALL - When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

Question for you, David: who would you say is closer to the wall--Lovelady or Prayer Man?

Correct you are, Sean.

BWF was precise in describing his position at the center rail and locating both Shelley and Lovelady to his right, closer to the wall.

On another note, Prayer Man has a body posture that could also be construed as nervous or anxious (clasping his hands together, as opposed to leaving his arms calmly at his sides). He has also chosen a location in a dark corner of an alcove of a buiding. There is an old concept in Psychology called Protection Motivation Theory. If an individual perceives a possible threat to their well-being, they will seek out a secure location. If someone wanted to watch the motorcade go by, but was also aware there was a possibility of bullets being fired at the Limo, the alcove in the entrance to the TSBD might be a reasonable viewing location. Not proposing this as a theory. Just a passing thought.

At any rate, I like the ring of "Prayer Man" and will continue to use it to reference this individual.

[Sean Murphy]

Yes, Richard, BWF's own testimony rules him out as Prayer Man. Looks like David lacks the grace to admit he was wrong.

I agree with you that Prayer Man's position--a pretty dreadful vantage point--is curious.

Curious also that Billy Lovelady's position in Altgens and Wiegman is that bit further from the western side wall than it was just seconds before in Hughes.

What happened?

Looking closely at a terrific gif Gerda Dunckel put together from the Hughes film, which covers the turn of the Presidential limousine onto Elm Street, are we seeing Lovelady being distracted by something just behind him to his right?

Might this something be the arrival of Prayer Man out onto the front steps?

And might Prayer Man's arrival help account for the nudging of Lovelady ever so slightly east?

[Robert Prudhomme]

I think that this does put Oswald outside as the "prayer man". He said that he went outside to see what all the excitement was (not to watch the parade). This would mean, in my opinion, that he just stepped outside to see why there was so much moving about, running, etc., then back in the building and on to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get a coke. and, it my remembrance as well that Officer Baker wrote that LHO had a coke in his hand and that part was later marked out.

Hello Mr. Adams

I have heard before, as you stated, that Oswald said he went outside to see what the excitement was all about following the shots, but I have never been able to find the source of this. Do you know when and to whom he was supposed to have said this?

More specifically, did Oswald actually refer to the excitement as being the commotion following the assassination? He may have been referring to the crowd outside the TSBD seeing JFK coming down Houston St. and the resulting elevation in excitement.

What a pity Oswald never lived to stand trial.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Martin Hinrichs]

Your point is valid and what you wrote is good.

To me, it is very strange, while reading the testimony of Couch, that he did not record the crime scene even when knowing it.

He was hinted by Jackson to look up to the TSBD because Jackson saw a rifle.

Couch did and confirmed to saw the rifle.

Then Couch searched for his camera on the footroom of the car with success, beginning to film the Grassy Knoll???

That makes zero sense to me.

To see a rifle after hearing shots and then to neglect the source?

No go for a camera man.

This is a good example of guided testimonies of the WC.

I had never really thought of it from that perspective before, Martin. Not a bad point. But, on the other hand, we must consider other things too -- the fact that Couch was riding in a moving car as he filmed. I guess he could have jumped out of the camera car [as Wiegman did] and rush inside the TSBD to film in there or film the upper floors of the building where he saw the gun. But in the latter possibility, Couch knew the gun had already been pulled back inside, so he might have thought "What's the point of filming an empty window?" (even Dillard wasn't fast enough with his camera to capture the gun or the assassin in the window, and he snapped his picture just seconds after Bob Jackson shouted "There's the rifle!").

Plus, Couch could easily see that a lot of confusion was taking place near the Grassy Knoll (the direction his camera car was taking him anyway), so what was he supposed to do under those circumstances? He merely filmed what was handy to film at that chaotic moment, and he'd already passed the Depository.

And this quote of yours, Martin, is not an accurate (or fair) remark at all:

"This is a good example of guided testimonies of the WC." -- M. Hinrichs

How do I know it's not a fair statement? Because we don't need to rely ONLY on what Mal Couch told the Warren Commission months after the assassination. Fortunately for us, we've got the audio of Couch saying that he saw the rifle sticking out of the "fifth or sixth floor" window of the TSBD. And he said that on live WFAA-Radio within just an hour or two of the shooting on November 22nd. Listen to him say it below:

DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com/MAL COUCH

BTW, after Couch's camera car went under the Triple Underpass, he did jump out of the car and run back to the Depository:

Mr. BELIN - Did you take any pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself?

Mr. COUCH - Not of the south side at the moment. After we went, say, 50 to 75 feet on down Elm, uh - we began to hang on because the driver picked up speed. We got down under the - I think there's three trestles there, three crossings underneath the - uh - at the very bottom of Elm Street -

Mr. BELIN - Is that what they call the triple underpass?

Mr. COUCH - Right. And - uh - I think, as I recall, right after we made the turn on Elm, one or two of the fellows jumped out. But after we got all the way down underneath the three trestles we finally persuaded the driver - who wasn't to anxious to stop - to stop and - uh - we all jumped out. And I ran, I guess it was about 75 yards or a little more back up to the School Depository Building and took some sweeping pictures of the crowd standing around. I didn't stay there long.

Good points again David.

Couch was in Camera Car 3. The last camera car in that motorcade.

Yes, the car did move. Is that a problem for a camera man in an open automobile?

He can switch the perspective very easy.

Sure, it is an unfortune that we can't see what Couch thinked.

But his action is still not locical to me.

David, i believe Couch. I believe that there was a rifle in the sixth floor.

I'am sure a shot or more come from this direction.

Maybe even Oswald.

But he was obviously distracted by a last shot form the grassy knoll.

That makes sense.

best to you

Martin