The Decline in Forum Activity

[Bill Byas]

It has been pointed out that there has been a decline in Forum activity recently. One obvious reason for this is that we have passed the 50^th anniversary of the JFK assassination and there will now be fewer books, videos, conferences to promote. However, what we are seeing is a trend that will increase.

The main reason for this concerns Google.

Your sure the censorship has nothing to do with it?

[David Josephs]

If you are referring to XXXXXX and XXXXXX posted by XXXXXX and XXXXXX

It think if we were to XXXXXXXXX the XXXX and then XXXXX with the source, we could probably XXXXXXXX from now on

[Vince Palamara]

LOL!!

[David Josephs]

On a serious note...

I think those who are informed about the assassination have simply gotten tired of trying to "discuss" the case WCR/HSCA apologists who invade threads with nonsense about rifles and photos and the medical evidence as if it was REAL, AUTHENTIC EVIDENCE of what happened.

Their argument remains: "The wrong puzzle pieces put together upside down gives us a perfectly accurate picture of the assassination" and yet, when asked to turn over a piece and authenticate it...

they get beligerent...

When WE turn over a piece and show how it doesn't even belong in the box - how it has nothing at all to do with an accurate picture of the assassination... we get called kooks and the trolling continues.

DVP's point about a Mauser on the 6th floor...for example...

Tell me though, seriously, YOU don't believe that a Mauser was found on the sixth floor of the Book Depository on Nov. 22 -- do you, Vince?

There are TWO AFFIDAVITS IN ANY FACT which state clearly that the rifle THEY FOUND was a 7.65 Mauser.

TWO AFFIDAVITS from a Deputy Sheriff and a DPD Officer... corroborated by a Detective and the Captain of Homicide....

Any of "YOU" believing it has nothing to do with the evidence and what it says. DVP would have you dismiss these identifications, on a legally binding document, as a "belief" issue as opposed to an evidence issue.

Boone and Weitzman were not duty bound to describe the caliber and make of the rifle they found... that rifle was found on the 6th floor is more than enough...

but they did not stop at "a rifle"... they were very specific, one man selling rifles as a sideline and the other a sheriff with eyes and some level of intelligence.

And they did not wait days, weeks or months... these AFFIDAVITS were written the same day and the next... and signed.

Officially the rifle is found at 1:22... Yet Truly is on the 6th floor in the location where the rifle was found between 1:00 and 1:20.. Truly is on the 6th floor when the rifle is found... Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor.

So once again we are expected to address a WCR apologist over the AFFIDAVITS signed by the two men who found a rifle and identified it specifically as a 7.65 Mauser when as plain as day, the rifle says "Made in Italy" and "6.5"

and then we are told it matches the BYP rifle....

So as a lowly Conspiracy Realist I ... and compare the NARA rifle with the BYP rifle..look for who said what around the time the rifle was found... is there MORE EVIDENCE that the rifle at NARA is NOT the 7.65mm rifle these men are describing?

Yet we need to have this conversation, this "debate" repeatedly since the DVPs of the world want so badly to believe it was Oswald alone, and any evidence pointing in a different direction is purley imagined.

So what's our choice? Let the DVPs spread disinformation about the case as FACT... and try to move on to more productinve activities... or be vigilant enough to counter the DVPs with the same old evidence that has proven Conspiracy from day one... the WCR and HSCA itself... while trying to believe there is not some organized effort to keep the "dabate over conspiracy" alive.

So WHAT to do?

DJ

(ATF AGENT) Ellsworth claims he found the sniper's nest on the sixth floor,

but the "gun was not found on the same floor as the cartridges, but on a lower floor by a couple of city detectives...

I think the rifle was found on the fourth floor."

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/11th_Issue/guns_dp.html

After Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig viewed the sniper's nest, where he saw three spent 6.5 millimeter cartridges, he began to search for a weapon with Boone. "We started toward the northeast corner of the building. There was a stack of boxes at the head of the stairwell and Boone looked into it and said, 'Here it is. Here's the rifle.' We didn't touch it until Captain Fritz and Lt. Day of the Dallas police got there. They took some pictures of the rifle and Day pulled out the rifle and handed it to Captain Fritz, who held it up by the strap and asked if anyone knew what kind of rifle it was. Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman had joined us and Weitzman was a gun buff, and he was very good with weapons. He said, 'It looks like a Mauser.' He walked over to Fritz, and Captain Fritz was holding the rifle up in the air, and I was standing next to Weitzman, who was standing next to Fritz, and we weren't more than 6-8 inches from the rifle, and stamped right on the barrel of the rifle was '7.65 Mauser,' and that's when Weitzman said, 'It is a Mauser,' and pointed to the '7.65 Mauser' on the barrel." [21]

Boone later testified that Captain Fritz also thought that the gun was a Mauser. [22] Boone testified in two written reports that the gun was a Mauser. Weitzman signed an affidavit the next day stating that the rifle he and Boone had found was a "7.65 Mauser bolt action equipped with a 4/18 scope, a thick leather brownish-black sling on it." [23] Fritz would eventually testify to the Warren Commission that the gun found on the sixth floor was Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano. Weitzman also recanted his belief that the gun was a Mauser, though he was never shown the Mannlicher-Carcano by the Warren Commission to confirm the fact that it was the rifle that he had seen on the sixth floor. An FBI envelope (FBI Field Office Dallas 89-43-1A-122) dated 12/2/1963 that was released in 1995 by the AssassinationsRecord Review Board ARRB had a cover that detailed the contents of the envelope as being a 7.65 mm rifle shell. The shell was allegedly found in Dealey Plaza after the shooting, though nothing was known about this envelope or rifle shell until the release of the 1995 records. The whereabouts of the 7.65 mm rifle shell is unknown. Researcher Anna Marie Kuhns-Walko first reported the envelope. The envelope had the following label: "7.65 shell found in Dealey Plaza on 12/02/1963 ... determined of no value and destroyed."

Arthur Pineda's analysis of photos showing the rifle in Lt. Day's possession seems to heighten the controversy concerning the ammunition clip and the identification of the rifle. Dallas Police Department pictures show Lt. Day dusting a rifle for prints while in the Texas School Book Depository. The photograph shows that the rifle has no ammunition clip. However, another picture of Lt. Day carrying the rifle from the Depository shows a rifle with an ammunition clip "clearly visible protruding from the bottom of the magazine of the rifle." This photo also shows a rifle with sling swivels mounted on the left side of the weapon, "while CE 746 B (a Warren Commission enlargement of CE 133A, which is a photo of Oswald with rifle) clearly shows that Oswald's rifle had the sling swivels on the bottom. The rifle that Lt. Day is carrying simply is not Oswald's rifle." [24]

On the afternoon of the shooting, KBOX, a Dallas television station, broadcast that "a rifle has been found in a staircase on the fifth floor ... Sheriff's deputies identify the weapon as a 7.65 Mauser ... " [25] To add to the confusion WBAP-TV reported that a British Enfield 303 had been found in the Depository. [26]

Dallas police officer Lt. Day took the rifle to police headquarters on Friday afternoon and dictated a detailed report of the weapon's description to his secretary, but the report was never included in the Commission's exhibits. [27] Later that night at a televised press conference, Dallas District Attorney Wade declared that the rifle found in the Depository was a 7.65 German Mauser. [28] Lt. Day released the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to the FBI at 11:45 p.m., November 22, 1963.

The CIA produced a document on the 25th of November 1963 that created more confusion by declaring " ... employed in this criminal attack is a Model 91 rifle, 7.35 caliber, 1938 modification ... the description of a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in the Italian and foreign press is in error. It was a Mauser." [29] Oswald told his inquisitors that he had seen a Mauser in the Texas School Book Depository. On November 20th, Warren Carter, an employee of Southwestern Publishing Company that occupied part of the second floor in the Depository, brought a Mauser rifle and a .22 calibre rifle for his fellow employees to look at, a fact that was verified by numerous Depository employees. [30]

Curiously, Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano clearly has "MADE ITALY" and "CAL 6.5" stamped on the side of the barrel. Though Oswald's rifle was clearly marked, Boone, Weitzman, Craig, and Fritz at one time stated they thought the gun was a Mauser, and Lt. Day's report is not available. Weitzman's description includes the exact calibration of the scope and the color of the sling. Though it is very clear that what the officers thought they had found was a Mauser, the Warren Commission explained away this problem by stating"Weitzman did not handle the rifle and did not examine it at close range... thought it was a Mauser ... [and eventually] police laboratory technicians subsequently arrived and correctly identified the weapon as a 6.5 Italian rifle." [31]

But what the officers found may very well have been a Mauser considering what Frank Ellsworth saw in the Depository that day. Ellsworth was an agent of the Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms agency and was in his office not far from the Depository when he was told of the shooting. He ran to the Depository and entered the building with Captain Will Fritz. Ellsworth claims he found the sniper's nest on the sixth floor, but the "gun was not found on the same floor as the cartridges, but on a lower floor by a couple of city detectives... I think the rifle was found on the fourth floor." [32] Ellsworth participated in a second search of the Depository after 1:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963. The gun that was found was an Italian Mannlicher-Carcano hidden behind boxes near the "stairwell back in the northwest corner ... I have the recollection that the position it was in, and where it was found, led to conjecture that as Oswald came down the stairs he probably pitched it over behind these books." [33] Ellsworth has stood by his original assessment of where the Mannlicher-Carcano was found in a 1993 interview with authors Ray and Mary LaFontaine.

The HSCA investigated the misidentification of the rifle and concluded that "many bolt-action rifles are so similar in profile that misidentification may occur." [34]

Jim Garrison investigators interviewed David Kroman, a prisoner of Leavenworth Penitentiaryand an acquaintance of Richard Case Nagell, the ex-C.I.A. agent who has been linked to the assassination through researcher Dick Russell. According to the Garrison investigators, Nagell told Kroman that a right-wing extremist group financed by H.L. Hunt and some Bastista sympathizers had plotted to assassinate Kennedy in Miami in December 1962. As Nagell had told author Dick Russell, the intent of the assassination would be to rationalize an attack on Cuba. Kroman claimed Nagell told him that the plot moved to Dallas where seven men were involved. Oswald was told to bring a Mauser to the Texas School Book Depository on November 21st and leave it at the site of the shooting. To complicate the plot, Oswald was to hand the dismantled Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to a contact on the third floor and leave the building. [35]

And Mr Truly - who is on the 6th floor between 1pm and the finding of the rifle... yet never SEES the rifle being found...

Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the rifle.
Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time?
Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle.
Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the building?
Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building.
Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was found?
Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your talk with Fritz?
Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. While you were on the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. While I was on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you went with Chief Lumpkin to the sixth floor, didn't you?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And what was your purpose of going there?
Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his Irving address, at the suggestion of Chief Lumpkin, who accompanied me.
Mr. BALL. Did you give Captain Fritz this name and address?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had been found?
Mr. TRULY. I don't remember who I learned this from----
Mr. BALL. I didn't ask you that, I'm talking about time only.
Mr. TRULY. That was while I was on the sixth floor is when I learned the rifle was found, but I did not see it.
Mr. BALL. All right. Now, was it before or after you told Captain Fritz the name and address of Lee Oswald, that you learned that the rifle was found?
Mr. TRULY. I can't remember, I believe it was afterwards.
Mr. BALL. You are sure it was after you told Captain Fritz---after what, you tell me?
Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth floor, Captain Fritz was standing in, the area where I later learned they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other men---officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I repeated the words to Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing---I told him what his name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left the sixth floor shortly.
While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and sometime---someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know who it was.
Mr. BALL. About that time?
Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I don'.t recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no occasion to go back up there.
Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address?
Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes. (DJ: Fritz returns to the TSBD and is out front at 12:58)
Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?
Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?
Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock.
Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place.
Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there.
Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after I o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that?
Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1.
Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1?
Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory.
Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed he wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. I don't think so---I don't feel like at was. It could have possibly been so.
Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate?
Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination.
Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes.

[Vince Palamara]

I would also like for Mr. Mack to explain why he wrote in The Third Decade that Gerald Posner "gave history a sham of a book" and pans it..back in 1993? Anything change?

[Vince Palamara]

(oops- this was actually meant for another thread LOL)

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi David Josephs (have to start calling you two Dave1 and Dave2 LOL)

The information pointing at the rifle being found in the TSBD as being a 7.65mm Argentine Mauser carbine is too strong and detailed to simply be dismissed. That being said, I think enough leads to the Mauser have been extinguished to keep anyone from proving, with any degree of certainty, that a Mauser was found and that it was anywhere but the 6th floor.

The rifle being examined on the 6th floor in Alyea's film is, without a doubt, either an M38 or an M91/38 Carcano. To those who believe otherwise, here is the challenge. If not a Carcano, what make and model of rifle is that?

Further, in the comparison photos of the NARA rifle and the backyartd photo rifle, the only difference between the two is the sling mount rings. The backyard photo is clearly an M38 or M91/38 Carcano. The metal cap on the wooden forestock is very unique and the only reason it appears not to match in both photos is the rifle in the BYP is rotated towards the camera, while the NARA rifle is photographed straight from the side.

While bottom sling mount rings on M38's and M91/38's are extremely rare, they are not unheard of, and some were installed during the manufacture of the rifle. It must be remembered that Italy was at war when the M91/38's were made, and not doing particularly well, at that, and for this reason the correct rifle parts were not always available. Also, following the war, thousands of rifles, in varying states of disrepair, found their way back to Italian arms factories. Many of the more damaged rifles were used for parts to make whole rifles for the surplus market and it is not inconceivable for a bottom sling mount from a Carcano carbine or long rifle to find its way onto a Carcano short rifle.

[David Josephs]

Simple question then Robert...

Given the opportunity to write up whatever they saw, Boone and Weitzman are specific about the Make and caliber of said rifle.... Enough so to sign their names to affidavits... why declare a MAKE and CALIBER when they are present when DAY holds up a M91/38FC, MADE IN ITALY 6.5mm carbine?

If we are going to believe that in 1963 these instruments of evidence were taken MORE seriously than today, in general...

Why is it so easy to dismiss?

Kroman claimed Nagell told him that the plot moved to Dallas where seven men were involved. Oswald (DJ: LEE or HARVEY?) was told to bring a Mauser to the Texas School Book Depository on November 21st and leave it at the site of the shooting. To complicate the plot, Oswald (DJ: LEE or HARVEY?) was to hand the dismantled Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to a contact on the third floor and leave the building

I have NEVER claimed the rifle in Day's hands was a Mauser... I don't think anyone is saying that Robert... what is being said is that RIFLES were in the TSBD that day.

and how THAT rifle gets to THAT spot is anyone's guess.... bringing it up from the 3rd floor is such a stretch?

We have all sorts of people wandering in the TSBD between 12:30 and 1:30... Agree?

We have Sawyer dropping men off on the 4th floor

Baker and Truly

Men coming down the stairs in plainclothes

Men going from the 6th to the 5th floors from the 1st and 2nd... etc....

Do you honestly believe that removing a 7.65 MAUSER from the TSBD between 1:00 and whenever you like was not easily done by either DPD personnel, Sheriffs, ATM, self identified SS agents, etc....

Somehow Monty comes out with a bag we KNOW Oswald did not make... yet THERE it is....

We have a clip somehow JAMMED back into a rifle which obviously does NOT have that clip when Day holds it up, yet does when he is walking on Elm... how did it get there?

Robert - I greatly appreciate you being a voice of reason with regards to rifles, ammunition and their workings..... I disagree with you that the BYP and NARA rifles are the same based on the simple fact that to an item, the physical evidence is designed to implicate Oswald and nothing else... they do not create a web of self reinforcing evidence which SHOULD be the case if Oswald actually did any of this.... the rifle evidence does not even corroborate itself let alone stand on its own.

The FBI created, destroyed and altered enough examples of evidence to render virtually ANYTHING THE FBI TOUCHED useless as evidence related to Dallas that day.

Yet we continue to validate this terible evidence by even acknowledging there is a discussion to be had.

I will post this again and again and again until it sinks in...

DVP - everything you and the other LNers base thier arguments upon is a lie - and it takes WC staff lawyers to inform you about it...

REDLICH is pretty clear here....

Why would he write such a thing to RANKIN no less, in April 1964 ??

We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine

whether the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to

frame 190. We could locate the position on the ground which

corresponds to this frame and it would then be our intent to establish

by photography that the assassin would have fired the first shot at the

President prior to this point. Our intention is not to establish the

point with complete accuracy, but merely to substantiate the

hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole

assassin.

<snip>

I should add that the facts which we now have in our

possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and

Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will

present a completely misleading picture.

Edited January 24, 2014 by David Josephs

[David Von Pein]

There are TWO AFFIDAVITS IN ANY FACT which state clearly that the rifle THEY FOUND was a 7.65 Mauser.

TWO AFFIDAVITS from a Deputy Sheriff and a DPD Officer [it was actually two Dallas County Deputies; neither Boone nor Weitzman were DPD officers]... corroborated by a Detective and the Captain of Homicide....

Any of "YOU" believing it has nothing to do with the evidence and what it says. DVP would have you dismiss these identifications, on a legally binding document, as a "belief" issue as opposed to an evidence issue.

Boone and Weitzman were not duty bound to describe the caliber and make of the rifle they found... that rifle was found on the 6th floor is more than enough...

but they did not stop at "a rifle"... they were very specific, one man selling rifles as a sideline and the other a sheriff with eyes and some level of intelligence.

And they did not wait days, weeks or months... these AFFIDAVITS were written the same day and the next... and signed.

It's truly amazing that there are still people who actually believe the Tom Alyea film is lying to them and that a Mauser was found on the sixth floor instead of the rifle that the Alyea film PROVES was being picked up off the floor by Lieutenant J.C. Day---a Mannlicher-Carcano.

I was recently watching the Alyea portion of Robert Groden's DVD "The Assassination Films" and I heard Groden say something as the Alyea film was being shown on the screen that I had totally forgotten about. Groden claims that Billy Lovelady said at some point after Nov. 22 that he was up on the sixth floor when a rifle was first discovered and that the footage we see in Tom Alyea's film (below) is merely a re-creation. It's all a staged/fake scene of Lt. Day pulling the rifle out from behind the book cartons.

Of course, the person who filmed all that activity which certainly shows a CARCANO and not a MAUSER, Tom Alyea, has never said a word about his footage only depicting a re-creation. So I guess Groden must believe Alyea was really filming the "staged" event much LATER in the day, right? Or did the DPD just happen to have Oswald's Carcano right there with them in the building, in order to plant it behind the boxes at about 1:30 PM and then "stage" the finding of a SECOND rifle. And apparently Will Fritz or J.C. Day must have acted as film directors and told Alyea when to start filming the fake/staged scene.

The whole notion that the police found two rifles on the sixth floor is nothing but the wild imaginings of conspiracy theorists (like Bob Groden). And btw, has anybody ever seen any statement or interview with the late Billy Lovelady which has Lovelady talking about the "staged" rifle scene in Alyea's film?

Or could it be that Lovelady was so certain in his own mind (for whatever reason) that a Mauser really WAS first found in the Depository that when he later saw the Alyea film that shows a Carcano, he (Lovelady) convinced himself that the film must be showing a staged or re-created event--because Lovelady is convinced a Mauser was really found? (Sounds like a plausible scenario to me, if in fact Lovelady ever said any such thing about the Alyea film depicting a "re-creation" of the rifle being found.)

In any event, with or without Bob Groden's and/or Billy Lovelady's silly idea that the footage we see in the above Alyea film depicts a staged or re-created finding of the TSBD rifle, there is ample proof to show that Weitzman's and Boone's initial "Mauser" identification was nothing but a mistake on the part of those Dallas deputies.

First, there's the Alyea film above (which is not showing a Mauser, it's showing a Carcano).

And secondly, there are the later filmed (video) statements made by BOTH Seymour Weitzman (in 1967 on CBS-TV) and Eugene Boone (in 1986 at the mock Oswald trial in London). Both men said that they were mistaken when they said in 1963 the gun found on the sixth floor was a Mauser. Were both of these deputies being coerced by somebody else to say these things on television?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sFRp4I7m5c

Plus, we have these conclusions reached by the HSCA in 1978 regarding the authenticity of the Backyard Photos (are the 20 members of the HSCA's Photographic Panel just making this stuff up out of thin air as part of a continuing cover-up?).....

"The panel detects no evidence of fakery in any of the backyard picture materials." -- HSCA Volume 6, Page 146

And:

"A comparison of the relative lengths of parts of the alleged assassination rifle that is in the National Archives with corresponding parts of what purports to be that rifle as shown in various photographs taken in 1963 indicates that the dimensions of the rifle(s) depicted are entirely consistent. .... A comparison of identifying marks that exist on the rifle as shown in photographs today with marks shown on the rifle in photographs taken in 1963 indicates both that the rifle in the Archives is the same weapon that Oswald is shown holding in the backyard picture and the same weapon, found by Dallas police, that appears in various postassassination photographs." -- 6 HSCA 66

---------------

ADDENDUM:

At another forum.....

ROB CAPRIO SAID:

Quite a few in the police department and D.A.'s office said the rifle was a 7.65 Mauser when the alleged murder weapon was STAMPED "MADE ITALY" and "6.5 CAL". This means if the WC and its current day defenders are correct quite a few people could NOT read rudimentary English. How likely do you think this is?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Rob,

Anyone who repeated the "7.65 Mauser" identification was simply repeating the incorrect assumptions that were uttered by Eugene Boone and Seymour Weitzman. Very few people at the DPD actually examined (up close) the detailed markings on the weapon. I think that is fairly obvious.

A false piece of information can, as you know, spread like wildfire.

Plus, there were a variety of TV and radio reports [some of which can be seen in the video below] that incorrectly labelled the rifle found on the sixth floor as all kinds of different types of weapons -- such as an Argentine Mauser, a German Mauser, a Japanese rifle, and a British .303 rifle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHeTQjxkxTs

Also See:

JFK Archives / Assassination Arguments (Part 591)

Edited January 26, 2014 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi David J.

Well, you make very good points. You are quite correct in saying there is a powerful case for Boone and Weitzman (and Roger Craig) having seen a rifle other than a Carcano; specifically a 7.65mm Argentine Mauser carbine. I'm not disagreeing with that. What I am saying is that any evidence supporting this, outside of their affidavits, has been very neatly disposed of. Just to be fair, it should be noted that the 7.65 A.M. has a built-in, protruding box magazine that looks remarkably similar to the Carcano. If I could c/p on this forum, I would post a photo for you. As the 7.65 A.M. and the 6.5 Carcano were both imports and likely not as common as other rifles, I could see someone with a passing acquaintance with both rifles confusing the two.

Also, I am not saying that the rifle in the NARA photo and the rifle in the backyard photo are the same rifle. However, both rifles are either M38 or M91/38 Carcanos. Despite what appears to be a bottom sling mount ring on one rifle, there is no doubt as to the make and model.

I'm not trying to start an argument with you over this, Dave, but I think you should be aware that, while I will support good evidence of a conspiracy, I will come down hard on anything I consider junk evidence, as it is junk and does nothing to further our cause. I am referring specifically to those who think they have seen a rifle other than a Carcano in the Alyea film because of what appears to be a square trigger guard. A serious researcher, believing this, would have established just what the make and model of the rifle actually was, if not a Carcano, before announcing to the world they had found "new" evidence of conspiracy.

[Pat Speer]

I find one of the images above most interesting. It is the one entitled "Day hold rifle" "no clip". Where did you get this from? Can you post the entire photo?

I've seen a number of photos of Day holding the rifle, but don't remember ever noticing the smudged prints on the trigger guard before.

Edited January 25, 2014 by Pat Speer

[David Von Pein]

....

Edited January 25, 2014 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

https://Facebook.com/groups/449371715190297/

IN A DISCUSSION AT FACEBOOK, MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

I noticed Boone, at the mock trial, said he learned the rifle was a Carcano only after the FBI had their hands on it and said it was a Carcano. He did not know Lt.Day was parading the rifle in front of the press telling them it was an Italian rifle made in 1940 on the early evening of 11-22-63...I guess.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

As far as I know, Lt. J.C. Day of the DPD never uttered a word while parading around holding the rifle over his head at 6:15 PM on November 22. Day was never interviewed by the press. He merely carried the gun in silence.

As I said in one of my forum posts recently, I don't think very many people at the DPD had an up-close look at the rifle at all on Day #1. Lt. Day, in fact, *might* have been the only person who had a really good look at it (and perhaps Captain Fritz too, who we can see via Tom Alyea's film was examining the gun up close in the TSBD).

But it was Lt. Day who took possession of the gun inside the TSBD, and it was Day who carried it out of the building, and it was Day who then locked it up in a lock box at City Hall for a few hours while he went back to the Depository to take pictures.

Lieutenant Day then went back to City Hall and started examining the rifle in greater detail. Then, close to midnight, he was told to stop working on the rifle and to turn it over to Vincent Drain of the FBI, which he did.

Ergo, the initial incorrect reports coming from Dallas County Deputies Weitzman and Boone became the "facts" as far as many people (and reporters thirsty for details) were concerned. It wasn't until the next day (Saturday, the 23rd) that the reports started coming in that the rifle wasn't a Mauser, but an Italian Carcano.

MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

I've seen a couple clips of the rifle traveling through the DPD, but never see the whole thing like I wish we did. When asked what kind of rifle it was, Day said, "6.5, apparently made in Italy 1940".

I [saw] it aired, and heard him say it on a CNN show called "The Assassination of President Kennedy" on 11-21-13.

I recorded it and just watched it again.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I don't recall that clip with Lt. Day saying something to the press. I wonder if I have it in my video collection? I'm not sure, but I'm sure going to look for it. Thanks, Michael. And my apologies for saying that Lt. Day never spoke to the press in the DPD corridors. I guess you just proved me wrong in that regard. Thank you.

MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

Why that is not included in the clips of this historic event, I do not understand.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Perhaps it is buried in my collection someplace. I don't know. But thanks for the info nonetheless.

Edited January 25, 2014 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

https://Facebook.com/groups/449371715190297/

IN A DISCUSSION AT FACEBOOK, MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

I noticed Boone, at the mock trial, said he learned the rifle was a Carcano only after the FBI had their hands on it and said it was a Carcano. He did not know Lt.Day was parading the rifle in front of the press telling them it was an Italian rifle made in 1940 on the early evening of 11-22-63...I guess.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

As far as I know, Lt. J.C. Day of the DPD never uttered a word while parading around holding the rifle over his head at 6:15 PM on November 22. Day was never interviewed by the press. He merely carried the gun in silence.

As I said in one of my forum posts recently, I don't think very many people at the DPD had an up-close look at the rifle at all on Day #1. Lt. Day, in fact, *might* have been the only person who had a really good look at it (and perhaps Captain Fritz too, who we can see via Tom Alyea's film was examining the gun up close in the TSBD).

But it was Lt. Day who took possession of the gun inside the TSBD, and it was Day who carried it out of the building, and it was Day who then locked it up in a lock box at City Hall for a few hours while he went back to the Depository to take pictures.

Lieutenant Day then went back to City Hall and started examining the rifle in greater detail. Then, close to midnight, he was told to stop working on the rifle and to turn it over to Vincent Drain of the FBI, which he did.

Ergo, the initial incorrect reports coming from Dallas County Deputies Weitzman and Boone became the "facts" as far as many people (and reporters thirsty for details) were concerned. It wasn't until the next day (Saturday, the 23rd) that the reports started coming in that the rifle wasn't a Mauser, but an Italian Carcano.

MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

I've seen a couple clips of the rifle traveling through the DPD, but never see the whole thing like I wish we did. When asked what kind of rifle it was, Day said, "6.5, apparently made in Italy 1940".

I [saw] it aired, and heard him say it on a CNN show called "The Assassination of President Kennedy" on 11-21-13.

I recorded it and just watched it again.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I don't recall that clip with Lt. Day saying something to the press. I wonder if I have it in my video collection? I'm not sure, but I'm sure going to look for it. Thanks, Michael. And my apologies for saying that Lt. Day never spoke to the press in the DPD corridors. I guess you just proved me wrong in that regard. Thank you.

MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

Why that is not included in the clips of this historic event, I do not understand.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Perhaps it is buried in my collection someplace. I don't know. But thanks for the info nonetheless.

I watched the CNN program he mentions, and can verify that the quote of Day is accurate.

[David Von Pein]

Thanks, Pat.

I just did a little digging into my video archives and verified for myself that at least one TV network (CBS) was most definitely identifying the assassination weapon as a 6.5-millimeter Italian rifle as of approximately 7:00 PM (Dallas time) on Friday, November 22nd.

In the video clip below, which was aired live on CBS-TV on the evening of 11/22/63, Dan Rather of CBS News clearly calls the rifle being held up by Lt. J.C. Day an "Italian 6.5-millimeter" gun. We can't hear Lt. Day say anything; we only hear Rather's narration in this clip, but it is clear from the video that Lt. Day definitely is speaking to the members of the press at the crowded City Hall. He's probably identifying the rifle in just the manner confirmed by Michael Giampaolo and Pat Speer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC6xhg_nTvw

So the conspiracy theorists who continue to say that everybody on radio or television was labelling the murder weapon as a Mauser all the way through Day 1 (November 22nd) are proven wrong (just as I was proven wrong on this issue too) by the above video alone. And if CBS was reporting that the assassination weapon was a 6.5mm. Italian rifle during the evening of November 22nd, you can bet that most of the other TV and radio networks were reporting the very same thing at that same time as well.

Thanks again to Michael and Pat. Your confirmation of Lt. Day's statements in the 2013 CNN program prompted me to dig further myself. And the digging paid off. Much obliged.

Edited January 25, 2014 by David Von Pein