More Info Needed About A Rare Picture Of JFK

[David Von Pein]

This is not very important really, but I found it interesting nonetheless ---

At Greg Burnham's nicely-laid-out new website and JFK forum, somebody posted the photo below of JFK, which the person posting it says was taken on 11/22/63 during the motorcade through Dallas.

But I am a little skeptical as to whether the picture was taken in Dallas on November 22, mainly because of the shirt and tie being worn by President Kennedy, which do not seem to match the pattern of the tie or the striped shirt that JFK was wearing in Dallas that day.

Here's the picture:

Now it could be that the less-than-perfect nature of the above photo (plus the lighting) are making the stripes in JFK's shirt impossible to see. But I sure don't see any stripes in that shirt when compared to the higher-quality picture below, which was definitely taken at Love Field in Dallas on Nov. 22nd (and the pattern in the tie looks different too):

I'd like to put the top picture on my Photo Gallery website, but I'm just not sure how to label it. I'd like to be able to confirm it was taken on the day of JFK's assassination in Dallas. But I'm just not sure. The person who posted it at Greg Burnham's forum said it was taken in Dallas "on Main Street at Griffin Street" on 11/22/63.

Any photo experts here? What do you think about the shirt and tie issue I raised?

Another comparison pic can be found here -- http://kennedy-photos.blogspot.com/2013/11/kennedy-gallery-370.html

Source for top pic -- http://forum.assassinationofjfk.net/index.php?/topic/27-rare-photo-of-jfk-in-the-dallas-motorcade/

Edited March 21, 2014 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Some follow-up posts from my Facebook discussion regarding this issue.....

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Addendum --- It's a neat (and rare) picture regardless of where it was taken. Not perfect quality, but a nice close-up of a smiling JFK riding in the bubbletop limo (I can tell that by the handholds on the back of the car).

Perhaps somebody can confirm there was a SAVINGS & LOAN building near Griffin & Main in Dallas in Nov. '63 (or confirm there WASN'T such a "LOAN" building that can be seen in the background of the photo)?? Too bad we can't see who else is in the back seat with the President.

MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

The stripes in the Dallas shirt are very prominent and easily seen. For sure we would see some sign of stripes if there were some. I don't see any at all. Plus the design of the tie looks different too. And shouldn't there be a motorcycle somewhere? Instead I see people running.

CHRIS SIMONDET SAID:

It's a print owned by the International Center of Photography - photographer unidentified - here it is uncropped:

And here's a fairly high-resolution detail of the photo:

Although it's already clearly not Dallas, we can add that there are no SS agents hanging off the side of the Queen Mary - that might help narrow things down.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, Chris. But it doesn't appear that enough of the SS follow-up car is visible in order to determine whether any agents are riding the running boards. I'd be very surprised if there were NO agents on the running boards on the left side of the SS car, regardless of the location of the motorcade.

But if it's not Dallas, I'm wondering where Stan Wilbourne (who posted the picture at Burnham's site) got the specific info about the picture being taken at Main & Griffin in Dallas? That's mighty specific info. ~shrug~

CHRIS SIMONDET SAID:

I'd put money on the caption being from here: http://www.rsvlts.com/2013/11/21/john-f-kennedy-rare-photos/

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, Chris. But the caption is messed up then, because the caption for each photo applies to the pic ABOVE the caption, which means the "Griffin & Main" reference is referring to the Cecil Stoughton pic above the caption. The mystery photo in question actually has this caption (so it still says it's Dallas on 11/22) --- "22 November 1963 Bystander snaps the Presidential motorcade in Dallas, Texas."

[...]

But actually, if we can determine that the "mystery" pic wasn't taken in Dallas on 11/22, then it really could conceivably have been taken during any one of dozens of motorcades JFK rode in from June '61 through Nov. '63. (It had to be after June 15, 1961, though, because that's when the "bubbletop" Lincoln car first arrived in Washington to serve as JFK's main limo.)

[...]

I wonder if this tie (below) could be the same one seen in the mystery picture? This photo below was taken at about 10:30 AM on 11/21/63, probably just a matter of minutes before JFK left for his trip to Texas. Whether JFK changed clothes before departing, I haven't the foggiest:

[...]

How about this to add to the shirt mystery --- I just dug up this photo (below) of JFK in Fort Worth just after his parking lot speech on 11/22/63, and I sure don't see any stripes in this shirt either. And this is definitely Nov. 22.

However, it is possible that JFK changed his shirt after this pic was taken, because I know he changed his suit coat because it was raining when Kennedy made his parking lot speech at the Hotel Texas, and I'm almost certain he changed into a dry coat before giving his Chamber of Commerce speech in the ballroom at the hotel. So, it could be he changed his shirt too (and perhaps his tie as well), which would explain why he has on what seems to be a plain white shirt at 9 AM on 11/22, but had on a striped shirt in Dallas.

However, if he DIDN'T change shirts, then this would have to be the same striped shirt we see him wearing at Love Field in those HQ pics I posted earlier:

[...]

I don't think these ties are the same at all, but it's interesting that JFK seems to be wearing ties that are KIND OF similar in design--i.e., no stripes or solid lines to positively distinguish a particular tie from another one:

Edited March 21, 2014 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

An addendum (of sorts) that was posted at Greg Burnham's forum (in the same thread about the "mystery photo" of JFK).....

CHRISTINA GILL SAID:

Another thing that is haunting about that day was the fact that LBJ's limo is flanked by Secret Service protection. There are agents standing on those platforms on his car. You almost can't see him. However the exact opposite is true for President Kennedy's car. So like you said he was isolated and he was driven right into an ambush. There is so much about this that makes me angry.

DAVID VON PEIN SAYS:

Christina obviously is confused, because there are certainly no SS agents standing on platforms of LBJ's car in Dallas. Nor, in fact, are there any SS agents standing on platforms outside the SS follow-up car behind Johnson either. The agents are all inside a regular four-door hardtop sedan.

Christina must think that JFK's Queen Mary/Halfback Secret Service follow-up Cadillac is the same car which contains Lyndon Johnson. Why she thinks that is anyone's guess.

Source Post -- http://forum.assassinationofjfk.net/index.php?/topic/27-rare-photo-of-jfk-in-the-dallas-motorcade/#entry270

Edited March 21, 2014 by David Von Pein