Six Things Made To Order For Lee Harvey Oswald

[David Von Pein]

But DVP,

I ask for your orientation.

Do you believe Marina's husband killed JFK and work backward from that belief?

Or do you start from the fact JFK was killed and work forward?

Via either method, one irrevocable conclusion becomes very plain --- Marina's husband killed two people on November 22nd.

The only way to avoid that conclusion is to just ignore all the evidence. (IMHO.)

[Guest Mark Valenti]

But given Oswald's last attempt to ditch America for yet another hostile nation--Castro's Cuba--via LHO's Mexico excursion in Sept. '63, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that Mr. Oswald was in love with the good ol' USA.

He didn't have to want to dry hump the Grand Canyon in order to not "hate" the US as you claimed. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

As for his Martello statement, I'd be happy to track down statements of yours that you have made over the past few years that you would reasonably explain you didn't really mean literally.

[David Von Pein]

He didn't have to want to dry hump the Grand Canyon in order to not "hate" the US as you claimed. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

I agree. But I think in Oswald's case, the truth rests more with Oswald wanting to GET OUT of the United States and abandon American life than it does with him wanting to sing the Star Spangled Banner every day.

He wants to go to Russia (of all places)!

He wants to go to Cuba (again--of all places)!

And you think THAT'S a man who is deeply fond of the USA?

Edited April 26, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Larry Hancock]

I certainly would not portray Oswald as totally entranced with the American experience...still, he had come to prefer it to Russia and who knows how his idealism might have fared in Cuba. We do know that he

agreed to tell the FBI if he was approached by foreign agents (in his first post Russian interview) and that he did proactively contact the FBI in New Orleans. No doubt we would disagree on how many of

his actions might have been driven by other agendas, I'd just say his behavior was often situational. He was an American, looking for something better than the established American experience - which

was a bit bleak from his position in life - and pretty clearly looking for adventure along with that. I just don't see any solid proof that deep in his gut he "hated" America, nor JFK for that matter.

[Guest Mark Valenti]

I'm not going to land on the side of glorifying LHO, but I do believe that his actions (absent whatever took place on 11.22.63) were in a long-standing tradition of seeking, rebelling, insisting, haranguing and hoping that runs deep in the American character (as well as in all progressive people around the globe).

[Ron Ecker]

The seventh thing made to order for Lee Harvey Oswald was the Warren Commission Report, which encompasses the six things on 11/22/63 and of course omits any number of other things about the assassination that don't fit the order.

[B. A. Copeland]

But David, given Armstrong's proving the broken chain of custody of the rifle, from order to shipment, you honestly believe somehow it still ended up with LHO?

MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS. Neither the FBI nor Warren Commission explained why Oswald ordered a 36" rifle, which Klein's had in stock, but received a 40" rifle, which Klein's did not have in stock. They never explained how Lee HARVEY Oswald was able to pick up a package from the post office that was addressed to "A. Hidell." According to postal regulations a letter or parcel addressed to anyone other than the box hold would be stamped "addressee unknown" and "returned to sender." They never explained why or how Oswald was able to pick up a package that contained a firearm from the post office without filling out postal form 2162, required to be filled out by both the shipper and the receiver of a firearm. They never asked Klein's nor the post office for a copy of this form, which was required to be kept by the post office for 4 years. They never explained where or how Oswald acquired an ammunition clip or ammunition for the rifle. The FBI never explained what happened to the Klein's microfilm. The FBI never explained what happened to the original records they confiscated from Crescent, Harborside, Rupp, and Lifschutz. The FBI never explained what happened to the rifle (C2766) sold by Crescent to Klein's on June 18, 1962. Could this rifle (C2766), shipped to an individual whose name was known only to the FBI, have been the rifle found by the Dallas Police on the 6th floor of the TSBD.

SUMMARY OF C2766. Louis Feldsott gave his company's original records relating to a Mannlicher Carcano rifle, serial number C2766, to the FBI. Feldsott/Crescent sold this rifle to Klein's Sporting Goods on June 18, 1962. Klein's re-sold this rifle to an individual who's identity would have appeared on their original records (microfilm), but all original records relating to this rifle disappeared while in FBI custody. The only Mannlicher Carcano rifle ever seen by the public with serial number C2766 was found on the 6th floor of the TSBD on 11/22/63, was in FBI custody on 11/23/63, and is now at the National Archives.

The FBI/Warren Commission wants us to believe, with no original documents, that "Oswald/Hidell" purchased this rifle in March, 1963. But the only original documentation relating to a Mannlicher Carcano with serial number C2766 was the rifle sold to Klein's on June 18, 1962 by Crescent. The identity of the person who purchased C2766 from Klein's was likely found by the FBI on the Klein's microfilm. But the identity of this person was hidden, all original records relating to C2766 were destroyed by the FBI, and blame was placed on Oswald--the chosen "patsy."

Then there's that insane long travel that would be necessary on a day where he is proven to have been working at the time. I mean....you honestly believe it still?:

MAIL ORDER RIFLE. According to the Warren Commission Lee HARVEY Oswald left his job at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall during the morning of March 12, walked 11 blocks to the downtown post office, purchased a postal money order, and then mailed his order for the rifle to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago before returning to work. But the letter was postmarked 10:30 am, and company time records show that Oswald never left his job. He worked continuously from 8:00 am through 12:15 pm on 9 different printing jobs.

The Warren Commission never pointed out that the envelope, time stamped 10:30 am, was not mailed from the downtown post office where the money order was purchased. It was stamped and mailed in "zone 12," which was several miles west of the downtown post office and across the Trinity River. In order for this letter to have reached Chicago the following day, it would have to have been picked up by a mail carrier sometime after 10:30 am, delivered to the Industrial Station post office in zone 7, and then sorted and bagged into an airmail pouch. And the airmail pouch would have to have been delivered by another mail carrier to Love field and then placed aboard an aircraft prior to it's 12 o'clock noon departure.

If we are to believe the Warren Commission, then we believe that Oswald skipped work for an undetermined period of time on the morning of March 12, walked 11 blocks to the post office, purchased a postal money order, traveled several miles across the Trinity River in order to mail the letter, and then returned to his job unnoticed. And then, if we believe the Warren Commission, this letter was picked up by a mail carrier sometime after 10:30 am in zone 12, delivered to the post office in zone 7, sorted and placed into an airmail pouch, transported to the Love Field Airport, and loaded aboard the last flight to Chicago before the plane departed at noon. This money order was allegedly received by Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago the following morning, was included with over a thousand other mail orders from around the country, and then deposited into Klein's bank account. If this sounds a little far-fetched, believe me, it gets better.

Surely....to anyone open-minded enough I guess....this just reeks of something very suspicious...if not wrong IF Armstrong has presented a solid case here. I must also admit, that, perhaps for you and those who hold so strongly to the "LHO did it" theory, the ARRB really wasn't a very big deal (especially the medical evidence, which, in your mind I assume?, proves LHO even had help at Bethesda), nothing new that would counter the "LHO did it" theory arose as far as evidence yes? I mean what do you even say about Gerald Ford literally admitting he moved a wound on a diagram to seemingly fit with what was established officially? So many questions...

(source: http://harveyandlee.net/Guns/Guns.html)

(P.S - I 'seemingly' cherry picked the medical and rifle order evidence because I was actually reading about these very two aspects of the case and have been for about a week now and, happening across this topic, I decided I'd present this evidence to someone who strongly believes in LHO's guilt and who, without question or objection, accepts the WC's conclusions.)

Edited April 27, 2015 by B. A. Copeland

[David Von Pein]

B.A. Copeland,

Do you believe this document below is really a fake document? Because if you don't, then Klein's positively shipped Rifle C2766 to Oswald/"Hidell" on 3/20/63 (regardless of the fact Oswald had actually ordered from a coupon advertising a 36-inch gun)....



Waldman No. 7 pictured above sinks every conspiracist who has ever uttered these words:

"Lee Harvey Oswald never ordered any rifle from Klein's and was never shipped any rifle by Klein's."

Edited April 27, 2015 by David Von Pein

[David Josephs]

Funny thing

The name Lee Harvey Oswald does not appear on this order

A C20-T750, a 36" carbine with a scope did not exist at Kleins. That order was never shipped.

Where is the evidence that the $1.50 in postage was ever sent on?

What happened to the C2766 rifle Feldscott says was shipped to Klein's in June 1962 right after the ads for a C20-T750 had been running a couple of months and they needed rifles to fulfill C20-T750 orders thru Feb 1963?

Why is there no federal banking stamp on the back of the MO?

Why was it found in VA and not KS?

How, if there is no specific evidence of what Rupp took out of Harborside to send to Kleins, can you connect a rifle from Rupp thru Kleins and to Oswald when all the orders from that time period are gone?

Why is there no proof that Oswald or Hidell ever got the rifle from the Post Office or that it ever arrived at a post office?

Why wont the FBI or Kleins let us see another order for C20-T750 to see what was shipped?

Why has not a single person EVER come forward claiming to have ordered a C20-T750 36" scoped carbine and say they got the same rifle Oswald used? That would be pretty exciting and there should be tens if not a hundred of these floating around...?

What about the rest of the inventory from that shipment... did the FBI ever check the remaining stock to see if the other 99 rifles were also 40" FC rifles and not TS and/or where they were shipped?

When the rifle is supposedly in New Orleans on Sept 23, 1963 with the rest of the Oswald belongings and Ruth takes Marina and childred back to Irving... they see the loading and unloading of her car and repeatedly tells us that she does not see that rifle until shown to her on at the DPD. Did he take it with him to Mexico? to Odio? was it ever seen at the Paine house? No.

So what happened to it? How did it get from Magazine to Irving?

When he arrived at the TSBD - where do you say he put the rifle to retrieve it later?

http://www.ctka.net/2014/The%20evidence%20is%20the%20conspiracy.html you might want to read thru this... if he had a plan THIS is the plan he had to follow...

When did he have time to disassemble the rifle?

Make the paper bag?

Get the bag home - (he only asks Wesley for a ride Thursday afternoon)

Get the rifle into the bag before going to sleep at 9pm?

Get the rifle and bag in the morning?

Get a 34" piece of rifle into a 27" bag with clip, bullets, and trigger mechanism - and still not leave a trace inside said bag?

Mr. Pein... your attempts at offering WCR evidence and WCR conclusions with the same tired old fraudulent evidence from 50 years ago is terribly lame for someone with your skills.

Fashion a paper as I did at that link that illustrates the PLAN your Lone Nut had to employ to accomplish this amazing feat. PROVE he did it since he is INNOCENT until proven guilty...

No one including you have been able to offer a convincing argument supported by facts which is not destroyed just by looking at the Evidence of the Conspiracy left behind.

Posting a single doc and proclaiming King of the Hill is premature Dave... even you can follow that. Post an argument that isn't so easily pulled apart... you have all the evidence - same as I do...

If you;re going to waste our time and offer an argument - can you at least make it worth looking at?

[David Von Pein]

Therefore, David J., you think KLEIN'S SPORTING GOODS of Chicago, Illinois, played a large part in the "plot" to frame Lee Oswald. Is that correct?

You do realize how goofy that accusation is, don't you David?

And why would anybody think it strange that the name "Lee Harvey Oswald" doesn't appear on Waldman 7 when Oswald used his alias Hidell to order the rifle? Should Klein's have shipped the gun to "Oswald" even though the name on the order form said "Hidell"?

Video regarding the rifle and Klein's:

Edited April 28, 2015 by David Von Pein

[B. A. Copeland]

Dave that doesn't answer the questions that must all be taken into account with Waldman 7. I mentioned that facts stated above and I'll toss in a comment made by Dave Josephs in another topic that enhances my point I think:

Without the "HIDELL & Oswald's POBox" and the "C2766/VC836" all we have is the order coupon and envelope and the HSCA telling us what it can.

Surely there are still microfilm records of the orders from that year unless destroyed... ANY order for C20-T50 should shed light on what was happening at KLEINS with those orders...

Finally Paul... KLEINS was accepting and shipping orders for C20-T750 since Feb/Mar 1962... yet there are no records of them receiving any TS rifles to fulfill these shipments, only FC rifles delivered in Feb 1963.

I've asked DVP who cannot respond... asked every LNer WCR apologist I know to tell us what KLEINS was doing with these TS orders...

One would think if KLEINS had established shipping the 40" rifle in it's place, the FBI would LOVE to have a few examples to support their case.... not only no such luck, but the one batch of orders that are most meaningful

are no longer accessible...

S.O.S.D.D

DJ

(source: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21008)

The entire rifle ordering case and the alleged evidence proving LHO ordered it stand or fall together. If you show me Waldman and an honest and impartial jury observes the extreme problems with the First National Bank of Chicago and/or the Fed. Reserve Bank regarding the FBI (+ the problem stated above about his alleged travel to purchase a money order, etc, when he's proven to be working that day)... could a verdict of guilty still be applied?

In the case (what I strongly perceive) against LHO, one cannot ever merely rely on photographs to prove a case, especially in the matter regarding his guilt. Context is key and there are many evidential and rationally justifiable reasons to believe that much of the photographic record indicating LHO's guilt has been either suspiciously fabricated, altered, destroyed or all the above.

Could we really bring into court Oswald's "purchasing" such a weapon when we have a very distinct problem with the financial 'chain of custody' as it were, of the finances allegedly used to pay for the rifle? Case in point:

Robert Wilmouth, Vice President of the First National Bank of Chicago was interviewed by the FBI on 11/23/63, but was never asked if the unpaid $21.45 postal money order was deposited to his bank. Wilmouth told the FBI that a postal money order, after deposit to his bank, would have been sent to the Federal Reserve Bank and then sent to the US postal processing center in Kansas City. He told the FBI that the Federal Reserve Bank would be able to identify the money order by number. It would have been easy for the FBI to ask the Federal Reserve Bank to identify the $21.45 postal money order by the number that appeared on the FNB of Chicago deposit, but they never asked and for a very good reason. The unpaid postal money order (shown above) was never endorsed by the FNB of Chicago, never routed to the Federal Reserve Bank and never endorsed by the Federal Reserve Bank. The Federal Reserve Bank would not have a copy of this or any unpaid money order.

I ask you humbly, after reading and studying the above and finding it to be factual (does actually Waldman 7 utterly crush Armstrong's presented evidence or anyone who espouses the conspiracy theory of events?)......would the case for LHO ordering said rifle suffer or not? Would copies of copies, etc, be accepted into court to prove LHO's guilt?

[David Von Pein]

But, B.A., do you really think Klein's is a co-conspirator in this thing? Really?

If so....for what possible purpose? Coerced by the FBI to do so?

Or don't you consider that a valid question for me to ask?

Edited April 28, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Jon G. Tidd]

Questions about the order form:

[1] Were such blank forms intended to be filled out, at least in part, by the purchaser?

[2][a] Was the form in question, Waldman 7, filled out in part by an individual employed by Klein's? If so, what part(s)?

[3[ If the answer to [2][a] is yes, who was that individual, and was he or she interviewed by the Warren Commission?

[David Von Pein]

Jon,

Waldman #7 is an internal Klein's form. The customer never sees that form at all. It's generated by Klein's after they receive the order form in the mail from the customer.

From 7 H 366...

DAVID BELIN -- "Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is."

WILLIAM J. WALDMAN -- "This is a copy made from our microfilm reader-printer of an order received by Klein's from a Mr. A. Hidell, Post Office Box No. 2915, in Dallas, Texas. I want to clarify that this is not the order, itself, received from Mr. Hidell, but it's a form created by us internally from an order received from Mr. Hidell on a small coupon taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine."

7 H 366:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0187b.htm

I do wonder why William Waldman refers to Hidell as "Mister"? The order coupon that Oswald mailed to Klein's says simply "A. Hidell", which could be a female ordering the gun for all Klein's knew at the time in March 1963. (Although I suppose it might be a bit unusual for a woman to be ordering firearms from Klein's Sporting Goods; but it certainly could happen.)

Obviously, though, Mr. Waldman would have later become aware that "A. Hidell" was, in fact, Lee Harvey Oswald, who was, of course, a "Mister". But I just wanted to put that out there before a conspiracist jumps all over Waldman for improperly addressing Hidell as "Mr. A. Hidell".

Perhaps some CTers think that the "Mister" indicates William Waldman had advanced knowledge of who "Hidell" was prior to Waldman's Warren Commission session and, therefore, Waldman was part of the alleged "plot" to frame "Mr. Hidell". I've never heard that theory---but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it resides in some CTer's mind right now.

[NOTE -- Edited by DVP to correct error in Waldman's testimony above that appears on the McAdams/Marquette website. There's a chunk of Waldman's testimony omitted on the McAdams page for some reason. The above testimony is taken directly from 7 H 366 as it appears on Rex Bradford's "History Matters" site.]

Edited April 28, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Jon G. Tidd]

Thanks, DVP.