Did Lee Harvey Oswald Order The Rifle? The Answer Is Yes

[Ian Lloyd]

The question shouldn't be whether Oswald ordered the rifle, the question should be if and when did he pick it up?

So you seem to accept the fact that Oswald (using his "Hidell" alias) did order the rifle. But you can't envision a situation where Oswald could have merely gone to the post office, handed the clerk the slip he found in his P.O. Box, and then have the rifle package handed to him by the clerk??

That scenario is played out in hundreds or thousands of post offices all over the USA every day.

Plus, let me ask this simple, common-sense question.....

Why would somebody order something by mail-order and have it shipped to their post office box (whether it be a rifle or any other item) and then never go to the post office to pick up the merchandise? Why would anybody do that, Bill?

Ian:

So, let's say he collected a long package from the PO sometime during the day whilst working at JCS - was anyone asked if they saw him carrying a long package into work on any day he worked there (similar to the question raised about him entering the TSBD carrying a long package on the 22nd November 1963)?

Also, 3 little questions:

1. Why was the obvious discrepancy between the advertised rifle length and the length of CE139 never questioned (a response along the lines of "well, they had the rifle used by Oswald to assassinate the President so there was no need to question it." won't do)? Revisiting your question "Did Lee Harvey Oswald order the rifle?" , the answer must therefore be "No" since the rifle found does not match the rifle that was ordered - pretty fundamental really.

2. When was the check cashed, according to the WC records?

3. Did the handwriting experts examine the original documents?

How come not one Post Office employee recalls handing a rifle over the counter to Oswald and taking the balance of payment for the pistol?

You think a clerk should have instant recall regarding every package he/she gives out to every John Doe in Dallas---even after eight months have passed? Come on.

====================

RELATED CAT FIGHT....

JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Von Pein is the prime example of the Warren Commission Crazies or kamikazes. I mean, see there was never any evidence that Oswald ever picked up the handgun used to shoot Tippit at Railway Express. In fact, even more exculpatory, there was never any evidence that the FBI even went there. So how did the transaction happen?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

How about that for sterling logic and razor-sharp evaluation of the evidence against Oswald in the Tippit murder, folks? DiEugenio is much more concerned about the lack of a paper trail that would connect Lee Harvey Oswald to the Smith & Wesson revolver that killed Officer J.D. Tippit than he is about the PROVABLE FACT that Oswald had that very same gun ON HIM (as he was trying to shoot more policemen with it) when he was arrested inside the Texas Theater just a half-hour after Officer Tippit was gunned down.

There are no words left for me to use to describe how utterly preposterous DiEugenio's thinking is regarding this matter concerning Oswald's revolver and the Railway Express.

To DiEugenio, Oswald being caught red-handed with the murder weapon in his very own hands in the movie theater on 11/22/63 is of far less importance than being able to answer the following question --- When and where did Oswald first pick up the revolver after he purchased it by mail order in early 1963?

More revolver chatter:

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/08/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-42.html

[David Von Pein]

RELATED COMMENTS......

While re-reading a few portions of Vincent Bugliosi's book "Reclaiming History" today, I came across something that I don't remember having seen before. This happens to me frequently when revisiting parts of Bugliosi's immense JFK book---I'll find something that seems brand-new, even though I read the book in its entirety years ago.

But this habit of "revisiting" Vincent's book from time to time is usually a worthwhile exercise, because since the book is so large, some stuff in it is bound to be forgotten or overlooked after going through it just once (or even twice).

Here's the interesting segment from today's "re-reading" of page 790 of Bugliosi's tome:

"In a search pursuant to a search warrant by Dallas Police Department detectives of Oswald's belongings in Ruth Paine's garage on November 23, 1963, portions of two Klein's magazine ads for the rifle were found inside a box." -- Vincent Bugliosi; Page 790 of "Reclaiming History"

Sources used by Bugliosi for the above quote:

CD 578, March 7, 1964, FBI Exhibit D-85; and

7 H 195, WCT Richard S. Stovall.

In addition to the sources shown above, one other source concerning this subject that Bugliosi didn't mention is Commission Document No. 7, Page 388.

So, we can see HERE that there were two separate clipped portions of two different Klein's magazine advertisements found among Lee Oswald's possessions in Ruth Paine's garage on November 23, 1963, both of which are nearly identical to the order form that Oswald used to order his rifle from Klein's in March of 1963 [seen in CE773 and Waldman Exhibit No. 8].

This particular topic of two nearly identical Klein's order forms being found among Oswald's belongings the day after President Kennedy was assassinated is something I don't recall being discussed too much (if at all) among JFK researchers.

I wonder how the conspiracy theorists who think Lee Oswald never ordered the rifle from Klein's are able to combat this additional "Klein's" evidence that was found in Ruth Paine's garage the day after the assassination?

Do those theorists want to believe that those blank Klein's order forms were planted in Paine's garage in order to help frame Oswald for Kennedy's murder? Or do the CTers who know about this "Klein's" evidence found in Commission Document No. 578 simply shrug it off as being irrelevant and immaterial entirely?

But it is rather revealing to have in evidence those two other "Klein's" order forms, seeing as how Klein's in Chicago is the exact same mail-order company that sent a rifle with the serial number C2766 on it to a post office box in Dallas that was being used at the time by a certain Mr. Lee H. Oswald.

The clippings seen in CD578 provide further physical evidence tying Lee Harvey Oswald to Klein's Sporting Goods.

Footnote/Addendum....

Vincent Bugliosi's verbiage in the quote I cited above isn't quite 100% accurate. Vince says that "portions of two Klein's magazine ads for the rifle were found" in Ruth Paine's garage. (Emphasis added by DVP.)

The words "for the rifle", however, do not apply in that quote, because as we can see in the links I provided earlier, the Klein's clippings are not ads "for the rifle" that Oswald ultimately ended up receiving from Klein's in late March of 1963. The clippings only show two blank Klein's order forms.

So, Mr. Bugliosi has overstated the facts just a little bit in that quote I cited. The proper way for Vince to have said it in his book would have been this way (IMO)....

"In a search pursuant to a search warrant by Dallas Police Department detectives of Oswald's belongings in Ruth Paine's garage on November 23, 1963, portions of two Klein's magazine ads were found inside a box."

I'm sure the discovery of another small error in Vince Bugliosi's book will make some conspiracy theorists jump for joy, because they can now claim once again that Vince deliberately "lied" to his readers on page 790 of "Reclaiming History", with a determined and calculated effort being made by Bugliosi to deceive them.

I, of course, will choose to categorize Vincent's "for the rifle" mistake in a different manner, as I have done when confronted with the "Bugliosi Is A xxxx" brigade in the past as well.

David Von Pein

November 28, 2014

============================

THE KLEIN'S ADS (PART 2)

============================

Edited May 26, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Bruce Fernandez]

Has the issue of the discrepancy in location of the sling mounts between the back yard photo and the weapon found in the SBD been previously reconciled?

[David Josephs]

Kenneth,

CBS-TV (Dan Rather) was identifying the rifle as a "6.5 mm. Italian" gun at about 7:00 PM CST on Nov. 22, only about 6 hours after the assassination. What's so incredibly delayed about that?

Dan Rather didn't say "Carcano", no. But do you now want to say that "6.5mm Italian gun" ISN'T the same as saying "6.5mm Italian Mannlicher-Carcano"?

They are the SAME THING, Ken.

But Rather did try to show what that rifle under Lee's armpit might look like...

Mr. BALL - You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - You mean one end of it under the armpit?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under your arm like that.

Mr. BALL - And he had the lower part--

Mr. FRAZIER - The other part with his right hand.

Mr. BALL - Right hand?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - He carried it then parallel to his body?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right, straight up and down.

Representative FORD - Under his right arm?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Did he come in with anybody?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - He was alone?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; he was alone.

Mr. BALL - Do you recall him having anything in his hand?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.

Mr. BALL - Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I can---yes, sir---I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.

Mr. BALL - In other words, your memory is definite on that is it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Or, are you guessing?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I don't think so.

Mr. BALL - You saw him come in the door?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up?

Mr. FRAZIER - I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat.

Mr. BALL - From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way you would measure it?

Mr. FRAZIER - If, if you were going to measure it that way from the end of the seat over toward the center, right. But I say like I said I just roughly estimate and that would be around two feet, give and take a few inches.

Mr. BALL - How wide was the package?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I would say the package was about that wide.

Mr. BALL - How wide would you say that would be?

Mr. FRAZIER - Oh, say, around 5 inches, something like that. 5, 6 inches or there.

Mr. BALL - But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the package?

Mr. FRAZIER - No; he had it cupped in his hand.

Mr. BALL - Cupped in his hand?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Good old Dan, always so helpful.

[David Von Pein]

Why do I call it an Argentine Mauser? For the simple fact that Seymour Weitzman identified the rifle in his statement as a "7.65 Mauser", and the only Mauser on the planet chambered for the 7.65x53mm cartridge just happens to be known worldwide as the "Argentine Mauser".

[...]

Ron Reiland and Bob Clark were obviously the only ones who knew their butts from a hole in the ground when it came to rifles.

Yeah, right. Reiland and Clark got some inaccurate info from either the newswires or from some other source, and that suddenly makes them world-class rifle experts, right? Too funny.

No one had to refer to the rifle as a "7.65 Argentine Mauser". The second they called it a 7.65 Mauser, the only thing it COULD be was an Argentine Mauser.

Ron Reiland refers to the Depository rifle as an "Argentine 6.5 Mauser" in this WFAA-TV audio clip from the afternoon of 11/22/63. He doesn't call it a "7.65" weapon at all:

RON REILAND AUDIO EXCERPT FROM NOVEMBER 22, 1963

So much for Mr. Reiland being one of only two people in Dallas on November 22nd "who knew [his] butt from a hole in the ground when it came to rifles".

Edited May 26, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

You're just like a little kid, Dave, never happy until you get in the last "Nyah! Nyah! Nyah".

[Robert Prudhomme]

Dave

Why not have a go at the other thread? You know, the one you've been ignoring for a few days now.

[David Von Pein]

Ron Reiland refers to the Depository rifle as an "Argentine 6.5 Mauser" in this WFAA-TV audio clip from the afternoon of 11/22/63. He doesn't call it a "7.65" weapon at all:

RON REILAND AUDIO EXCERPT FROM NOVEMBER 22, 1963

So much for Mr. Reiland being one of only two people in Dallas on November 22nd "who knew [his] butt from a hole in the ground when it came to rifles".

You're just like a little kid, Dave, never happy until you get in the last "Nyah! Nyah! Nyah".

[...]

Why not have a go at the other thread? You know, the one you've been ignoring for a few days now.

I was just tying up a loose end regarding this Reiland thing. And you're the one who made this statement yesterday, Bob. Not I. ....

"Ron Reiland and Bob Clark were obviously the only ones who knew their butts from a hole in the ground when it came to rifles."

As for your other thread.....

You haven't proven the SBT is a fallacy. Your charts and schematics don't show JOHN KENNEDY'S skeletal structure specifically. And without knowing every little nuance of John F. Kennedy's body, then your charts might be CLOSE, but they might not be close ENOUGH.

Plus, I've already pointed out about 699 times in the past the absurdity of believing that TWO separate bullets went into JFK's body just A TINY LITTLE BIT, with neither bullet exiting the body....and then....both bullets simply VANISH!

Tell me how that theory passes anyone's laugh test, Bob.

Single-Bullet-Theory.blogspot.com/#Debating-The-SBT

----------------

Edited May 26, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Steven Gaal]

http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.com/2009/11/who-bought-guns.html

==

Purchasing the Rifle

---------------------------------------
It has long been held that a key piece of evidence in the guilt of Lee Oswald is documentation that he bought a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle and the .38 pistol. In his possessions was a found a receipt dated March 12, for the money order he allegedly used to purchase the rifle (no receipts were ever found for the pistol in his belongings). The purchase amount was $21.45. This was for one rifle with a four power scope, but no clip or bullets. The letter had a postmark of 10:30 AM. So, Oswald had a window of 8:30 AM to 10:30 AM to purchase the money order and mail it off.

One important fact to remember is Oswald’s post office box was authorized for his name only. He ordered everything under his alias, A. Hidell. Any piece of mail coming to his box with the alias would be marked “addressee unknown, return to sender.” Keep this in mind for as we shall see later, the box plays an important role in Oswald’s acquiring of the weapons.

Another hitch is that Oswald’s work records show he was employed that morning at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovell with no absences. The nearest post office was 11 blocks away. A long walk back and forth for a man with no car. Even more curious is the postmark date has zone 12 listed on it. Zone 12 was roughly two miles away in downtown Dallas. Since it was established that the money order was purchased in zone 3, who would buy a money order at one office and then travel two miles to another one to mail it? Plus, Oswald didn’t have the time even if he had a friend to drive him there and back.

The order arrives at Klein’s Sporting Goods in Chicago the next morning and was sent via Airmail. Very good for pre-FedEx days! Kline’s reportedly deposited the money order in its bank account on March 13. However, under closer inspection the money order is missing many of the bank routing stamps which would show its path through the banking system. Only the endorsement stamp of Klein’s is there; it’s missing the stamps from the First National Bank of Chicago, the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, and finally, the Federal Postal Money Order Center in Kansas City. None of those three routing stamps are on the back of the money order. The stamps have to be there to show that each bank pays only once, if not you have a mess on your hands. Other money orders that Oswald bought, such as the ones he used to pay off his State Dept. loan, all have these routing stamps. So this is most unusual and never investigated by the Warren Commission, the FBI, or any other agency. It certainly gives weight to the idea that Oswald’s payment never made it through the banking system.

One problem with case and which is largely ignored, was in the spring of 1963 Klein’s only selling the 36” model of the Mannlicher-Carcano. This is clearly shown in ads they had running in various sporting magazines. The rifle found on the sixth floor near the sniper’s nest was a the 40” model. Kline’s was not selling that model in March of 1963.

Adding to that, the FBI went through Klein’s microfilm records and found no sale of a Mannlicher-Carcano with a serial number of C2766 for March of 1963 or any month in that year. They went back a year and never found one sold with that matching serial number in 1962 either. It seems to have disappeared from the inventory.

However, there are several accounting records with the amount of $21.45 listed. One entry is for March, 1963, but another for February 15th. One is listed under the heading, “checks.” But checks are a different type of financial instrument than a money order and should not be listed under that heading. There is also a listing for “other banks” but what banks are those? There is no serial numbers identified for the amount of $21.45. It could be C2766 or somebody else’s order. It should be noted that Klein’s went out of business in 1973 and it’s remaining financial records were destroyed. Also, many accounting records on microfilm disappeared while in FBI custody (Armstrong, p.475).

What is known is Klein’s received a shipment of rifles (carton #3766) and Mannlicher-Carcano, C2766, in that shipment. Also, it was stated by Louis Feldsott, President of Crescent Firearms (wholesaler) in a sworn affidavit to the Warren Commission that he found a record of a sale of a Mannlicher-Carcano, C2766 to Klein’s Sporting Goods, Inc., for June 18, 1962.

Affidavit of Louis Feldsott, President of Crescent Firearms.

June of 1962 is an important date. It’s the same month Oswald, his wife and child, traveled back to the USA from the Soviet Union. His DOD ID card expires that year (sidebar–his mother’s tax returns are sealed from 1956, ending in 1962.). Apparently, one must conclude that somebody created false paperwork to connect Oswald to the rifle, from Klein’s Sporting Goods accounting to bogus money order missing it routing track.

(It should be noted the original money order was found in the National Archives by one of the employees there, Robert Jackson. Jackson was never interviewed by the FBI in regards to how he found it. How it made it there is unknown. Oswald’s receipt was found in his personal possessions but that is suspect because of the all the difficulties already mentioned.)

The Controversy With Post Office Delivery
It’s been implied by some researchers, such as John Armstrong (Harvey and Lee) that Oswald’s P. O. Box was authorized for his name only and any mail arriving with another name, in this case his Hidell alias, would result in a return to sender. This makes getting his gun shipment to him problematic to say the least. The Warren Commission knew this and simply stated in the final report that, “It is not known whether the application for post office box 2915 listed ‘A. Hidell’ as a person entitled to receive mail at this box.” They had the original application, published in evidence volume 19, page 286. While it lists Lee Oswald as the applicant there is no authorization for mail under his name only.

There are other issues at play to further complicate this besides the mail box. One of the postal regulations at the time required that anybody purchasing a firearm had to fill out and sign a 2162 form. Not only the buyer but the seller as well. This form was to be kept on file for four years. This form was never found on either end, from buyer or shipper. The FBI never requested it and Klein’s never volunteered a copy. Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes told the Warren Commission that it basically didn’t matter than Oswald could have received the rifle under his alias. Interestedly, Holmes had been monitoring Oswald’s mail for up to a year since he was receiving subversive materials in the mail (i.e., FPCC and other communist literature) but couldn’t tell the Warren Commission that Oswald had received a package with a gun in it. Why didn’t he know? Oswald’s box was basically flagged. Oddly, Holmes apparently never mentioned that Oswald would have to have filled out the aforementioned 2162 form if that were the case.

All indications are that Oswald did not pick up the rifle package at the Post Office in Dallas. There is no paperwork to prove it and no witnesses to the fact.

The Smith And Wesson Pistol
If the weirdness with rifle is not enough, enter the .38 caliber pistol that Oswald allegedly used to kill Dallas police officer J. D. Tippet. Sold from Seaport Traders, Oswald took order of a snub nosed Smith &Wesson .38. Before he could order it he would be required under Texas law to get a “certificate of good character” from either the Justice of the Peace or a District Court Judge. This would be hard to do since he was ordering the pistol under his Alek Hidell alias. Imagine applying for a certificate verifying your character using a phony name! Apparently, he never did. The certificate would have to shown to the shipper before the firearm was released to the buyer.

Like the Mannlicher-Carcano, there is not a lot of solid documentary proof that Oswald bought the pistol. There is one invoice (#70638) saying the gun was shipped COD via Railway Express Agency to a A. J. Hidell. This particular invoice is a copy--the original was never obtained by the FBI. It also states that it was shipped to his post office box address which of course can’t be done and was shipped to REA office for pick-up. The FBI could have checked the bank records of both Seaport Traders and REA but never did.

When a shipment would arrive at REA it was common procedure to send a postcard alerting the buyer the gun had arrived. Once again, since Oswald had a post office box authorized in his name only, he would never have seen the postcard. It would have been marked “returned to sender” like his rifle should have been. Researcher John Armstrong looked into this in great detail and found that a phone call would determine if an order arrived at REA. No ID was required to show up and pay the COD charge and retrieve the package. Anybody could have appeared at the office and paid for the pistol.

There are no receipts of any kind that were found in Oswald’s personal belongings. No invoices, no postcard alerting the arrival of the shipment, no receipt for paying of COD charges...nothing. Oswald obtained a leather holster and bullets for it but no receipts for any of those items either.

----------------------------------------------

In Summary
Here are the major points covered:

•Post office box address only authorized for his name Lee Oswald. Anything sent with another name (as the rifle allegedly was) would be marked return to sender.
•Money Order not marked with proper routing stamps proving his path through the banking system.
•Work records at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovell show Oswald was employed at the time the MO was allegedly purchased and mailed.
•No finger prints found on the MO or the order coupon.
•MO eventually found in the National Archives in Washington, DC rather than the final resting place in Kansas City, MO.
•No 2162 form ever found from the buyer or the shipper.
•Oswald ordered the 36” model but apparently possessed the 40” model not for sale at Klein’s Sporting Goods at the time of sale.
•Klein's financial records did not list a sale of a rifle with C2766 in March of 1963 but instead, June of 1962–when Oswald could not possibility have ordered it and spent part of that month out of the country.
•No “certificate of good character” acquired for use in receiving the .38 handgun.
•Both the rifle and pistol are different models than the ones he ordered.
How do we resolve all of this? Evidently, somebody else bought the guns and fabricated a false paper trial linking it all to Oswald. The missing routing stamps on the back of money order indicate that it was most likely never deposited in Klein’s bank account and even the VP of the company could not verify it was deposited. Oswald’s work records show he never left work the morning of March 12 when he is supposed to have mailed the order to Klein’s for the rifle. When means he couldn’t have done it. In regards to the .38 revolver, that is even more murky and nearly undocumented. Only one receipt is in existence and it is a copy. Oswald himself may not have been aware of the set up that was going on behind his back. If he did he never told a soul. The guilty man has been framed once again.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Sources: Newman, John, Oswald and the CIA; Armstrong, John, Harvey and Lee; McKnight, Gerald, Breach of Trust; Warren Commission Report; Douglass, James, JFK and the Unspeakable; www.ctka.net (Probe Magazine article archive); www.history-matters.com

Edited May 26, 2015 by Steven Gaal

[Robert Prudhomme]

Just watch the other thread and it will all be explained.

No, it does not show JFK's anatomy specifically but, know what, Dave? Every human is pretty much the same under the skin, and a dissection of JFK's neck would reveal things almost identical to what is seen in those diagrams.

However, even if JFK had some freakish vertebral structure in his neck, it really makes no difference. The angles involved are so extreme, we could even sacrifice a few degrees, and the SBT would still be an impossibility.

[David Von Pein]

Just watch the other thread and it will all be explained.

No, it does not show JFK's anatomy specifically but, know what, Dave? Every human is pretty much the same under the skin, and a dissection of JFK's neck would reveal things almost identical to what is seen in those diagrams.

However, even if JFK had some freakish vertebral structure in his neck, it really makes no difference. The angles involved are so extreme, we could even sacrifice a few degrees, and the SBT would still be an impossibility.

So you say.

Just one more conspiracy theorist/hobbyist (this time by the name of Robert Prudhomme) trying to disprove what is quite obviously the truth --- i.e., a single bullet travelled completely through JFK's body (just like the autopsy doctors said in their report), with that bullet then going on to hit the person sitting IN FRONT of the President.

Doesn't that little "coincidence" ever cause you pause and want to re-think the SBT, Bob? I mean, this "coincidence":

JFK is hit in the UPPER BACK by a bullet.

and

John Connally is ALSO hit by a bullet in his UPPER BACK too. And Connally is hit at nearly the very same instant that Kennedy is also hit.

That little "BOTH VICTIMS ARE STRUCK IN THEIR RESPECTIVE UPPER BACKS AT ALMOST AN IDENTICAL TIME" coincidence doesn't mean a thing to you, does it, Bob?

I wonder why not.

Edited May 27, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

Well, if you're so sure of yourself, go over to the other thread and have me a medical debate.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Or, are you....chicken?

[David Von Pein]

A reprise....

Doesn't this little "coincidence" ever cause you pause and want to re-think the SBT, Bob?:

JFK is hit in the UPPER BACK by a bullet.

and

John Connally is ALSO hit by a bullet in his UPPER BACK too. And Connally is hit at nearly the very same instant that Kennedy is also hit.

That little "BOTH VICTIMS ARE STRUCK IN THEIR RESPECTIVE UPPER BACKS AT ALMOST AN IDENTICAL TIME" coincidence doesn't mean a thing to you, does it, Bob?

I wonder why not.

Edited May 27, 2015 by David Von Pein