live camera from 6 - i know you've probably seen it, but...

[David Von Pein]

You're right, I mixed up the windows.

He certainly does not have a lot of room in that corner, and the pipes do not help either.

That's true. It's not exactly a luxury suite at the Conrad Hilton. But he had enough room.

BTW / FWIW....

Prior to this discussion, I don't ever recall any conspiracy theorist utilizing the "He Didn't Have Enough Room To Fire The Shots From The Sniper's Nest" excuse before.

A brand-new theory perhaps? I don't recall ever arguing with anyone about this topic in the past. If I ever have, I've totally forgotten about it.

What will tomorrow's new theory be? I'll just leave it open-ended, as Internet conspiracy theorists invent new (and even lamer) excuses in their perpetual effort to satisfy their intense desire to complete this sentence....

Lee Harvey Oswald could not possibly have shot President Kennedy because....

Edited June 30, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Mark Knight]

You misunderstand my position, Mr. Von Pein.

I'm not saying NOBODY could have fired that rifle from that window at that angle from that spot.

I'm saying that a RIGHT-HANDED SHOOTER couldn't do it. From what I see, there is plenty of room for a left-handed shooter.

Mr. Von Pein...have you ever fired a rifle or a shotgun? If you have, your responses puzzle me...unless you're a left-handed shooter as well.

If you have not...then your responses make a tiny bit more sense.

[Kenneth Drew]

Ever find it odd that, while the Carcano ejects empty cartridges to the right of the rifle, two empty cartridges should end up on the floor to the left of where the rifle would have been for the last two shots?

I don't know why you would say that, Bob. None of the shells are to the LEFT (east) of the window Oswald was shooting from. You can even see the corner of one of the boxes in front of the window in CE510, and all of the shells are to the RIGHT of that box.

You've got the windows mixed up, Bob. You're thinking the window we can see in CE510 is the "shooter's window". But it's not. The shooter's window is the EASTERNmost window, right in front of the box that is just barely visible in CE510.

CE511 (on the right) shows it better. No shells ended up LEFT of the shooter's window....

So, two of them are directly under where the rifle would have had to be. That's his point. It doesn't matter, they were all planted. No one shot from there. Not enough room

[Kenneth Drew]

You're right, I mixed up the windows.

He certainly does not have a lot of room in that corner, and the pipes do not help either.

That's true. It's not exactly a luxury suite at the Conrad Hilton. But he had enough room.

BTW / FWIW....

Prior to this discussion, I don't ever recall any conspiracy theorist utilizing the "He Didn't Have Enough Room To Fire The Shots From The Sniper's Nest" excuse before.

A brand-new theory perhaps? I don't recall ever arguing with anyone about this topic in the past. If I ever have, I've totally forgotten about it.

What will tomorrow's new theory be? I'll just leave it open-ended, as Internet conspiracy theorists invent new (and even lamer) excuses in their perpetual effort to satisfy their intense desire to complete this sentence....

Lee Harvey Oswald could not possibly have shot President Kennedy because....

So just because the WC 'forgot' to mention it must mean he 'really ' did have enough room. I'm sure you're not going to show us a diagram with all the boxes in place and him standing/kneeling in place with his right eye to the scope. I don't know any grown men whose shoulders aren't more than 13 inches across.

[John Dolva]

I started looking at the pipes about 2005 : http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=17adbdbc86f57360fd7c9740d7818da5&showtopic=5308&hl=pipes#entry43841and covered it in a number of other threads till about 2010. Unfortunately the images aren't there but there are some interesting inputs from Tom, GPH, and others. I did have the pipes pretty much located from memory and it seemed to me that to get off three shots as suggested while the target was moving would have been a squeeze. I wouldn't say completely impossible but things would have to be just right. How often does that happen?

[David Von Pein]

I'm not saying NOBODY could have fired that rifle from that window at that angle from that spot.

I'm saying that a RIGHT-HANDED SHOOTER couldn't do it. From what I see, there is plenty of room for a left-handed shooter.

The difference in the amount of space required for a right-handed shooter versus a left-handed gunman would be very minimal. (IMO.)

Also:

If you own Vincent Bugliosi's book "Reclaiming History", go look at the last picture in the 2nd of the 2 photo sections in that book. That picture shows Bugliosi alongside Gerry Spence as they both stand in front of the famous sixth-floor window in the TSBD, with Vince pointing an imaginary gun downward toward the street with his RIGHT arm/hand. Looks like he's got enough room to me without having to smash through the wall.

Of course the conditions in that Bugliosi/Spence photograph are not at all the same as they were when Lee Oswald was firing from his "boxed-in" Sniper's Nest on 11/22/63, and I'm not suggesting for a moment that the conditions are exactly the same. But in a very general "Could a right-handed assassin fit into this space in front of this window?" kind of way, I think that 1986 photo of Bugliosi on the sixth floor serves a marginal purpose.

The same photo can also be found in Bugliosi's 2008 paperback book ("Four Days In November") too, between pages 340 and 341.

EDIT --- I just now found the Bugliosi/Spence picture online. Here it is....

Edited June 30, 2015 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

I started looking at the pipes about 2005: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=17adbdbc86f57360fd7c9740d7818da5&showtopic=5308&hl=pipes#entry43841 and covered it in a number of other threads till about 2010. Unfortunately the images aren't there but there are some interesting inputs from Tom, GPH, and others. I did have the pipes pretty much located from memory and it seemed to me that to get off three shots as suggested while the target was moving would have been a squeeze. I wouldn't say completely impossible but things would have to be just right. How often does that happen?

Thanks, John. That's before either of my two stints here at the EF.

It's possible I've discussed the "pipes" with some CTers in past years. I'll have to search my archives for "pipes" and "impossible" and "conspiracy theorists will do anything to keep Oswald out of that Nest".

Edited June 30, 2015 by David Von Pein

[John Dolva]

That shows how his left shoulder is behind the pipes. From memory: it seemed to me that if a right handed shooter was to shoot from there (window half down et.c.) then Brennans testimony is questionable. The shooter would have to shoot, reload, reaquire, shoot etc while moving the body in a too narrow space. ??? I think at about this point I tried to get precise dimensions to create a virtual model but couldn't get any and shelved the study for later. It has remained one of those matters that could be important but with no definite answers. Any 'reconstruction' I've seen seems to studiously avoid dealing with this.

Intentional blindness?

[David Von Pein]

That shows how his left shoulder is behind the pipes.

So? What difference does that make?

Edited June 30, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

I started looking at the pipes about 2005: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=17adbdbc86f57360fd7c9740d7818da5&showtopic=5308&hl=pipes#entry43841 and covered it in a number of other threads till about 2010. Unfortunately the images aren't there but there are some interesting inputs from Tom, GPH, and others. I did have the pipes pretty much located from memory and it seemed to me that to get off three shots as suggested while the target was moving would have been a squeeze. I wouldn't say completely impossible but things would have to be just right. How often does that happen?

Thanks, John. That's before either of my two stints here at the EF.

It's possible I've discussed the "pipes" with some CTers in past years. I'll have to search my archives for "pipes" and "impossible" and "conspiracy theorists will do anything to keep Oswald out of that Nest".

Two stints here at the EF?? What, are you here on assignment or something?

Edited June 30, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Chris Davidson]

You misunderstand my position, Mr. Von Pein.

I'm not saying NOBODY could have fired that rifle from that window at that angle from that spot.

I'm saying that a RIGHT-HANDED SHOOTER couldn't do it. From what I see, there is plenty of room for a left-handed shooter.

Mr. Von Pein...have you ever fired a rifle or a shotgun? If you have, your responses puzzle me...unless you're a left-handed shooter as well.

If you have not...then your responses make a tiny bit more sense.

http://www.filedropper.com/tom_5

Some more from Tom P.

chris

[David Von Pein]

Two stints here at the EF?? What, are you here on assignment or something?

Do you really believe that, Bob?

Edited June 30, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

You put an enormous amount of effort into your "hobby", Dave.

[Kenneth Drew]

I'm not saying NOBODY could have fired that rifle from that window at that angle from that spot.

I'm saying that a RIGHT-HANDED SHOOTER couldn't do it. From what I see, there is plenty of room for a left-handed shooter.

The difference in the amount of space required for a right-handed shooter versus a left-handed gunman would be very minimal. (IMO.)

Also:

If you own Vincent Bugliosi's book "Reclaiming History", go look at the last picture in the 2nd of the 2 photo sections in that book. That picture shows Bugliosi alongside Gerry Spence as they both stand in front of the famous sixth-floor window in the TSBD, with Vince pointing an imaginary gun downward toward the street with his RIGHT arm/hand. Looks like he's got enough room to me without having to smash through the wall.

Of course the conditions in that Bugliosi/Spence photograph are not at all the same as they were when Lee Oswald was firing from his "boxed-in" Sniper's Nest on 11/22/63, and I'm not suggesting for a moment that the conditions are exactly the same. But in a very general "Could a right-handed assassin fit into this space in front of this window?" kind of way, I think that 1986 photo of Bugliosi on the sixth floor serves a marginal purpose.

The same photo can also be found in Bugliosi's 2008 paperback book ("Four Days In November") too, between pages 340 and 341.

EDIT --- I just now found the Bugliosi/Spence picture online. Here it is....

Wait a minute. Bugs is standing where there was a box located. in fact in the very area where he is, there was 4 boxes located. Spence is standing entirely in an area that contained stacks of boxes. Put a scope to Bug's eye and see where the rifle is. But first you have to put him on top of a box that was in that corner. He would've had to shoot straight down if he could even have gotten a shot out the window from there. I'm still saying it is NOT POSSIBLE to shoot a right handed shot from that window to spot X. Note also that the window sash is completely raised, not just half way.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Kenneth Drew

[Kenneth Drew]

Besides that, with a rifle sticking out blazing away, why didn't any of the cameras taking photo's of the assassination get a picture of that rifle sticking out the window.