live camera from 6 - i know you've probably seen it, but...

[Glenn Nall]

simply answer a question, David. damn. grow up.

[David Von Pein]

"...can you PROVE that CE567 and 569 are fraudulent pieces of evidence?" -- DVP

Remember lesson 1 in making accusations, Davey? It's not the Defender who has to prove the Accuser wrong, it's the Accuser who has to PROVE his accusations.

We don't HAVE to effin' prove they are fraudulent. YOU have to effin' prove that they're evidence.

why is that so effin' hard to understand???

You're funny, Glenn. You've got everything backwards (as usual).

It's the conspiracy buffs who are always arguing that the various pieces of evidence are fake/phony/planted/manufactured/fraudulent/worthless. Therefore, it's THAT accusation that must be PROVED. And since it's an extraordinary and outrageous accusation (particularly when it involves nearly ALL of the evidence in BOTH murders--JFK's & Tippit's), then the accusation requires an extraordinary amount of proof to back it up.

Thus far, there hasn't been a SLIVER of PROOF that has come forth from the arrogant CT Brigade to prove that ANY piece of evidence was faked---let alone the DOZENS of pieces of evidence the CT Brigade claims was faked.

Try again, Glenn. I need another laugh before supper. And you seem to be making a habit out of impersonating Red Skelton.

Edited June 28, 2015 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

i take the word of people who are not proven hypocrites and liars, D. that's the difference.

I see.

And YOU get to decide who the "proven liars" are, right Glenn?

Edited June 28, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Kenneth Drew]

see?

bob and weave. stick and move.

when a man cannot reason, his only response is a counter-attack.

I still think he has a photo of Specter over his bed.... gotta learn from the best, right?

David... who found these items, when and were they photographed within the limo? or are we supposed to take the SS or FBI's word for it?

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0141b.htm is the "fragment of the nose of a bullet" with CE569 a fragment of the base...

CE568 and 570 are supposedly comparisons of these two fragments to a shot fired from C2766... - Frasier has to explain why they don't match exactly in his testimony...

But the real question is how did FBI Orin Bartlett get it?

For 14-16 hours, no one but the Secret Service and some corpsman named Mills is in contact with this vital piece of evidence.

One wonders how "2 SS agents" becomes the Deputy Chief of the SS and some Navy Corpsman??

This is the same SS where CE399 goes from being NOT the bullet handed over to Rowley by Johnson, to being the bullet Rowley hands to Todd to Frazier...

So we already have a break in CE399's chain which results in it coming into being in the hands of the Chief of the SS...

And now Q2 & Q3 come into being at the hands of the SS and yet again, some corpsman from the Navy (how did he get in on this?)...

Whether Orin delivers what these men provide him is unknowable...

What these men turn over to the FBI liaison Orin Bartlett is also unknowable.

What is knowable is that the SS and FBI have established a history of altering, providing and destroying evidence which could cause them problems...

Tell us why we would EVER believe them related to ANYTHING in this case David, when their evidence to convict is such crap?

Q. When was this examination made?

FRASIER. Between 2 and 4:30 a.m. on November 23, 1963.

Q. That was about 10 hours, 12 hours after the assassination?

A. Yes, sir; 14 to 16 hours.

Q. Fourteen to sixteen hours.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. May I ask, do you know in whose custody the automobile was prior to your examination from the time it was shipped on the airplane?

A. When I arrived there were two Secret Service men present but I do not recall their names. They were introduced to me and they were there during the entire examination but I don't recall their actual names. The car was under guard in the Secret Service garage in Washington, D.C.

Other than that I do not know.

Q. Was this a joint examination by you and by the Secret Se or was the examination made by the FBI?

A. No, sir; by the FBI at the request of the Secret Service who had already examined the interior of the car for personal effects and other items.

Q. Did they certify to you or advise you that the car had been under their custody during this 14- to 16-hour period?

A. I don't recall whether they actually stated that. What they stated was that the car had immediately been flown to Washington and placed in this garage and kept under surveillance the entire time.

Q. Thank you.

During the above examination, two Secret Service Agents noticed two large fragments on the front seat and retrieved them (Q2 and Q3)

CE 567 (Q2), the nose of a WCC/MC bullet, was found on the front seat of the limousine just to the right of the driver by Mr. Paul Paterni, Deputy Chief of the United States Secret Service, late on the 22nd of November while the car was in the Secret Service garage. He then gave it to White House Detail Chief (of the Secret Service) Floyd M. Boring, who gave it to FBI liaison Special Agent Orrin Bartlett, who passed it to FBI Special Agent Frazier at 11:50 p.m. on 22 November, according to records maintained by SA Frazier. This chain of custody is also legally binding.

CE 569 (Q3), the base of a bullet (brass jacket only), was found on the floor between the right front seat of the limousine and the right front door by Chief Hospital Corpsman Thomas G. Mills of the U.S. Navy, who was assigned to the White House doctor’s office. Corpsman Mills gave it to FBI liaison Special Agent Orrin Bartlett, who passed it to FBI Special Agent Frazier at 11:50 p.m. on 22 November, according to records maintained by SA Frazier.

During the above examination, two Secret Service Agents noticed two large fragments on the front seat and retrieved them (Q2 and Q3) let's see DJ, where could those fragments have come from? Using the illogical argument that a rifle fired 3 shots from the snipers nest, which one of those bullets fragmented and left two pieces laying on the front seat? Could it have been from the first one that missed everything? While it was flying over the limo(if it did) did some fragments fall off into the front seat? I'm going with NO on that one. Second shot, hit JFK in back (LOL) and went through him and Connally and never went near the front seat. So we have to go with a NO on that one. That leaves one more, according to Nutters this one went into JFK's head and didn't come out, so none of those went near the front seat. So we have a NO on that one. So where oh where did those fragments come from on the front seat on the car with no holes in the front seat that they could have come through. Well DVP, your turn.

[Kenneth Drew]

or are we supposed to take the SS or FBI's word for it?

Yes, we are.

What else CAN we do with respect to CE567/569, or ANY other piece of evidence for that matter? We must always take somebody's "word" for everything. Since neither you nor I were there in the White House garage when the two front-seat bullet fragments were found by the Secret Service, then we are forced to either "take somebody's word" for the details surrounding the discovery of those fragments (and the ballistics tests that were performed on them by the FBI), or we must just throw up our hands and say (as you seem to be saying) -- I have no idea whether anybody is telling us the truth about these bullet fragments; therefore, I can't use those fragments at all when trying to solve JFK's murder.

But, of course, ANY piece of evidence COULD conceivably be planted or switched. But why would I go down that "Planted" path when I also know that there is so much other C2766 rifle evidence found elsewhere---in the hospital and in the TSBD? And neither the FBI nor the Secret Service collected any of the Depository C2766 evidence. The DPD and Dallas Sheriff's officers found and collected all that TSBD evidence.

So, should I pretend there was some kind of amazing "Let's Frame Oswald" like-mindedness occurring between the SS, FBI, and the Dallas local police on November 22?

Why on Earth would anyone believe such craziness?

There is just too much evidence--which all points to Oswald's gun--to conclude anything other than this:

Rifle C2766 was the weapon that killed John F. Kennedy.

I'm not like the CTers. I don't automatically think J. Edgar and his employees were trying to frame a man for murders he never committed. YMMV (and obviously does).

Well DVP, see my previous question. Which bullet did the two fragments come from and when did they get there? And since you're 'taking their word' for it, you can take mine: The two fragments just magically appeared during the search in the White House garage. And fortunately they were marked "CE2766 fragments-11/22/63" so no one had to take anyone 'word' for it, they came labeled.

[Kenneth Drew]

DVP, I don't really expect an answer, but just draw us a diagram of the path to the seat of the front seat of the limo that those fragments took from the snipers nest and which of the shots did they come from and how do you know which bullet they were a fragment of and where did the rest of the bullet go after shedding these fragments. I'd like some real detail on this starting with "this bullet, the _________one fired by LHO from the snipers nest is flying toward the limo and then____________________________resulting in these two fragments being in the front seat of the limo with no evidence, including no holes through the back of the front seat..... Ok, take it from there DVP You may use 'common sense' on this one.
.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Kenneth Drew

[Glenn Nall]

yeah, and take my word for it, David - Connally has not reacted to a bullet wound the same time K has.

take my word for it.

[David Von Pein]

yeah, and take my word for it, David - Connally has not reacted to a bullet wound the same time K has.

Oh yes he has -----> Single-Bullet-Theory.blogspot.com

Edited June 28, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Kenneth Drew]

yeah, and take my word for it, David - Connally has not reacted to a bullet wound the same time K has.

Oh yes he has -----> Single-Bullet-Theory.blogspot.com

That link is to a DVP site, kinda useless.

[Glenn Nall]

yeah, and take my word for it, David - Connally has not reacted to a bullet wound the same time K has.

Oh yes he has -----> Single-Bullet-Theory.blogspot.com

That link is to a DVP site, kinda useless.

of course it is. you don't think i'm reading his stuff, do you?

i have great copies of the frames, great software and two eyes. i can see the same frames he's going to mark up with circles and arrows (remember Alice's Restaurant?) all on my own, and contrary to what he says he thinks, can make up my own mind. as i have.

and unless the forgers fixed it so that C looks to be unharmed when K is holding his throat, he's not. he testified to it and the film shows it.

D think he has some credibility. I think his bosses need to find a new patsy.

[Glenn Nall]

and why are you afraid of taking my word for it, anyway, D?

you're saying JEH is more trustworthy than I AM?

you're saying that there are some people whose word we should choose not to take...? really?

[Kenneth Drew]

Well DVP we're still waiting for you to tell where the fragments came from and how they got on the drivers seat. Is there a reason, other than you don't have a clue, that you don't answer?

[David Von Pein]

Well DVP we're still waiting for you to tell where the fragments came from and how they got on the driver's seat. Is there a reason, other than you don't have a clue, that you don't answer?

That's an easy one ----

The fragments got into the front seat of SS-100-X by way of Lee Oswald firing a bullet into John Kennedy's head at Zapruder Frame 313. The majority of that bullet was not recovered. Two fragments, however, continued forward after exiting President Kennedy's cranium and ended up in the front seat of the car. It's likely that one of those two fragments struck the windshield, resulting in the lead that was found on the glass; while the other fragment likely hit the chrome topping, resulting in the dent seen there.

But if I had said "I don't know" to Ken's question above, would that mean that I should automatically believe the FBI's Bob Frazier was a l-i-a-r when he said this to the WC? The added emphasis provided by DVP.....

Mr. EISENBERG - Now finally in the category of bullets and bullet fragments, I hand you what is apparently a bullet fragment, which is in a pill box marked Q-3, and which, I state for the record, was also found in the front portion of the President's car, and I ask you whether you are familiar with this item, marked Q-3?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; this was submitted to me as having been found beside the front seat of the automobile.

Mr. EISENBERG - Your mark is on that fragment?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, it is.

Mr. EISENBERG - When did you receive that fragment, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER - At 11:50 p.m., November 22, 1963, from Special Agent Orrin Bartlett, our liaison agent with the Secret Service, in the FBI laboratory.

==================

(I wonder why we can't write out the word "l-i-a-r" in our EF posts anymore? It gets changed automatically to "xxxx". Is that a new restriction? I sure don't remember that restriction being in place yesterday. EF must be getting ideas from Duncan MacRae's forum.)

Edited June 29, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Kenneth Drew]

or are we supposed to take the SS or FBI's word for it?

Yes, we are.

What else CAN we do with respect to CE567/569, or ANY other piece of evidence for that matter? We must always take somebody's "word" for everything. Since neither you nor I were there in the White House garage when the two front-seat bullet fragments were found by the Secret Service, then we are forced to either "take somebody's word" for the details surrounding the discovery of those fragments (and the ballistics tests that were performed on them by the FBI), or we must just throw up our hands and say (as you seem to be saying) -- I have no idea whether anybody is telling us the truth about these bullet fragments; therefore, I can't use those fragments at all when trying to solve JFK's murder.

But, of course, ANY piece of evidence COULD conceivably be planted or switched. But why would I go down that "Planted" path when I also know that there is so much other C2766 rifle evidence found elsewhere---in the hospital and in the TSBD? And neither the FBI nor the Secret Service collected any of the Depository C2766 evidence. The DPD and Dallas Sheriff's officers found and collected all that TSBD evidence.

So, should I pretend there was some kind of amazing "Let's Frame Oswald" like-mindedness occurring between the SS, FBI, and the Dallas local police on November 22?

Why on Earth would anyone believe such craziness?

There is just too much evidence--which all points to Oswald's gun--to conclude anything other than this:

Rifle C2766 was the weapon that killed John F. Kennedy.

I'm not like the CTers. I don't automatically think J. Edgar and his employees were trying to frame a man for murders he never committed. YMMV (and obviously does).

Rifle C2766 was the weapon that killed John F. Kennedy. But you don't ever expect anyone to ever be able to prove that. right?

[Kenneth Drew]

Well DVP we're still waiting for you to tell where the fragments came from and how they got on the drivers seat. Is there a reason, other than you don't have a clue, that you don't answer?

And if I say "I don't know", does that mean that I should automatically believe the FBI's Bob Frazier was a xxxx when he said this to the WC? The added emphasis provided by DVP.....

Mr. EISENBERG - Now finally in the category of bullets and bullet fragments, I hand you what is apparently a bullet fragment, which is in a pill box marked Q-3, and which, I state for the record, was also found in the front portion of the President's car, and I ask you whether you are familiar with this item, marked Q-3?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; this was submitted to me as having been found beside the front seat of the automobile.

Mr. EISENBERG - Your mark is on that fragment?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, it is.

Mr. EISENBERG - When did you receive that fragment, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER - At 11:50 p.m., November 22, 1963, from Special Agent Orrin Bartlett, our liaison agent with the Secret Service, in the FBI laboratory.

Mr. EISENBERG - And the last bullet fragment you examined, Exhibit 567, when did you receive that?

Mr. FRAZIER - It was received at the same time from Special Agent Bartlett.

Mr. EISENBERG - Did you examine both at that time, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; beginning the following morning, November 23.

Not one word of that information would ever be heard by a jury. They offer absolutely no proof of any of it. They did not, and can not say how any of the fragments got where they are. They can't say when any of those bullets were ever fired by 2766. But other than those minor details.................