Did Oswald order the Rifle: Almost Certainly Not

[David Von Pein]

Jim,

Nothing you have ever said knocks down the case against Lee Oswald murdering both JFK and Officer Tippit. Because in order for Oswald to be innocent of BOTH of those crimes, as you (incredibly) do believe, then we'd have to believe that literally ALL of the many pieces of evidence that incriminate Oswald are fake or fraudulent pieces of evidence. And that notion is, of course, just plain ridiculous.

And now, Jim, you seem to think that after a relatively brief examination into the Manson case, you have discovered things that rip apart the whole "Helter Skelter" case that Vincent Bugliosi worked on for over a year between late 1969 and January of 1971.

Your arrogance is staggering, James.

And as far as the JFK case goes, as I said before (and it's probably even more accurate today, with Jim DiEugenio entertaining the idea of even more conspiracy theories in his head since I wrote this 1.5 years ago)....

"I can add dozens of additional outrageous things to the list [below], but I'll stop at those twenty-two items for now. And yet despite [that] laundry list of silliness, James DiEugenio is still held in high esteem by many people when it comes to his evaluation of the evidence and his assessment of the facts concerning the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Unbelievable." -- David Von Pein; January 4, 2013

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-81.html#The-Stupid-Things-James-DiEugenio-Believes

Edited July 10, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

Slightly off topic, Davey but, you never did explain to me how the Magic Bullet made it through JFK's neck without going through a vertebra.

Now, back to Jim and the rifle!

[Greg Parker]

Well, Vince says that there were two Klein's magazine ads found at the Paine household, specifically in the garage. And he pretty much leaves it at that.

Smart move Vince. I never said Vince was dumb. Now let us explain why he does not tell the whole story about this "discovery". Which Martha Moyer did tell in her fine article "Ordering the Rifle."

First of all, the DPD said they found this on the 23rd. Which is the day Harry Holmes sent his secretary out to find ads for Klein's in magazines. He said he found two, American Rifleman and Field and Stream. Which, no surprise, is where the two ads the DPD say they found came from.

Except, what Vince does not say is that there were two differing stories as to where the ads are found. The one Vince uses says that the ads were found in a small box in Ruth's garage marked "miscellaneous photos and maps". Hmm. The ads were neither maps nor pictures. They were literally ads.

Why does Vince use this source? Because as Martha notes, the other one is even worse. This source says--please sit down before you read this:

The ads were found on the bedside table in Marina's bedroom!

Jim, I would say it's more likely Vince didn't use that source because it's uncorroborated hearsay from Judy Bonner.

Yep, Oswald kept those ads for about 8 months. He then transported them from apartment to apartment to apartment to apartment, even to New Orleans and back. He then left them at the Paine garage, but took them out the night before he shot Kennedy. He then was looking at them in bed while watching TV with Marina. He fell asleep, and on the day he was going to kill Kennedy, he forgot to pick them up and left them in plain sight. Right before he picked up the rifle he had ordered from them, and used to kill Kennedy!

LOL ROTF

Well, that must have been what Judy wanted everyone to believe!

Can you believe this stuff? Apparently Vince did. And so does his acolyte Von Pein. Any objective jury would be sitting there with mouths agape if any prosecutor had the chutzpah to present this nuttiness to them. But there's more.

These cut out ads were not on the DPD inventory assembled for the FBI on the 26th. Nor according to Martha, are they on the original DPD inventory. And guess what, when Curry published his book in 1969, he used a different ad. From which he omitted credit, which he did not usually do. And when Gary Savage did his book, in the 90's, he used an ad from Guns and Ammo to show how Oswald ordered the rifle. Needless to say, Adrian Alba handed over about five magazines he said could have been used to the FBi on the 23rd. All three of the above plus two more.

In other words, the DPD, Holmes and the FBI were hunting down any and all magazine ads after the fact. Anything to convict Oswald. And they got plenty of them.

That they did. This is also possibly the source of confusion over what size to make the planted bag...

Only Vince would leave all that detail out. And only DVP would make like a parakeet and mimic it without pointing out any of the problems with it.

I wouldn't say "only" Vince. Nor is DVP the only parakeet singing from someone else's error ridden songbook. Mostly in duets.

[David G. Healy]

Given all of the evidence presented HERE, plus adding in just a small amount of common sense to go with it, can any reasonable person really come to a conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald did not own and possess Rifle #C2766 (CE139) in the year 1963?

I'll answer that last question myself -- No, they cannot.

Lots more Rifle Talk below.....

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/mannlicher-carcano.html

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/09/lee-harvey-oswalds-rifle.html

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-591.html

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/11/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-852.html

the old drown CT's in absolute WCR, LHO did it all by his lonesome nonsense, eh, Davey?

Listen, I'd like to see you deal with money order problem(s). The how, where and timing re LHO mailing the money order for the alleged rifle. Who deposited the money order? 24 hours for the money order to get (Dallas-Chicago) to Klein's? 1963? How? Explain, please!

Get the lone nut minion's busy proving the rifle was actually received by and handled by LHO....

Edited July 10, 2015 by David G. Healy

[James DiEugenio]

Boooooh-yaaaaaaah!

Welcome back.

Thanks David.

I didn't like DVP calling me a clown. He seems to forget what I did to him over RH and the 25 things Vince misrepresented when he said he would not.

Edited July 10, 2015 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

24 hours for the money order to get (Dallas-Chicago) to Klein's? 1963? How? Explain, please!

Do you know what he said to me once on this one?

It was air mail.

I said how do you think they sent mail over 700 miles back then? By truck? Carrier pigeon?

​Almost everything is sent air mail today. I mean I sent a letter to someone about 200 miles away from me. That was transported by plane.

But it was not just 24 hours to Klein's. It was actually then deposited into their account. But see, Klein's hand sorted all deposits by currency and also geography before it was deposited. And only then was it deposited.

That is why I call it the SR 71 money order. Stan Dane marked up a great cartoon about this on Greg's site. He should post it here.

Edited July 10, 2015 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

BTW, I should add more about how we know Belin was part of the deception.

See, when Belin was examining Holmes he had him read into the record the Field and Stream ad.

The problem with that was that this ad was about a 40.2 inch 7 lb rifle.

Which was not the rifle Belin said Oswald ordered. That was a 36 inch, 5 lb rifle.

Now in the WR, they don't show you the alleged ad Oswald used to order the rifle.

Why the negative template? Because the WC knew this would lead skeptical people to ask some serious questions about whether or not Oswald ordered the 40.2 inch rifle. Which the WC says he did not.

Also, when Belin questioned William Waldman of Klein's, he asked him what the internal code number C20-T749 meant. When Waldman got out one introductory sentence, Beln stopped him. He then went off the record. There was no further discussion of that code. Because it referred to a 36 inch rifle not in evidence.

As VB said this indicates, "Consciousness of guilt."

In this case, it indicates the WC lawyers really were accessories after the fact.

Edited July 10, 2015 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Another indication that the money order was created after the fact is this:

The total deposits for that day came to $13, 827.98.

When Belin was examining Waldman he asked him to point out the 21.45 deposit on the deposit slip. And there is such a notation there.

But it appears under the first column, which is headed "Checks other Chicago Banks".

The problem is: Oswald sent a money order, and it was not from a Chicago bank. That particular 21.45 deposit in the ONLY deposit for that amount in the four page summary.

And this First National Bank of Chicago deposit slip is dated 2/15/63.

[James DiEugenio]

Let us return to Harry Holmes.

And how much the WC needed him.

Holmes told the WC that the money order had been issued early on the morning of March 12, 1963. (WC Vol. 7 p. 295)

There is no indication on the money order that such was the case. It was stamped on that day. But how could one determine what time of day it was stamped?

But the envelope had a postmark from that morning.

So Holmes came through again for the WC.

Guess what: Belin never asked Holmes how he knew the time of day of the issuance of the money order.

Yawn.

Edited July 10, 2015 by James DiEugenio

[David Von Pein]

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Jimmy Orr, in your experience [as a USPS employee for more than 30 years], in general, how long does it take an air mail letter to go from Dallas, Texas, to Chicago, Illinois (provided the letter was mailed no later than 10:30 AM local Dallas time)? Thanks.


JIMMY ORR SAID:

David,

Cancelled in Dallas by 10:30 AM and flown to Chicago that afternoon. Arrival for mail processing at a Chicago General Mail Facility during the early morning hours of the 13th and on the street for delivery to Klein's that same day. Makes perfect sense considering the volumes handled in 1963.

More....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html

Edited July 10, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Brad Milch]

I'm inclined to believe that Oswald's work records are bogus. If he was being run by an intel organization, such an organization could easily leave a false work history trail to be found after Lee Oswald was murdered & removed from the game IMHO. Why an Intel organization? Who else but Intel could create false work attendance & payroll records? Certainly not a legit business (like Coke or Sears, for example) could have a person working somewhere other than that company.

Some have postulated that one of Oswald's co-workers could have obtained the money order for Lee Oswald & mailed it after the fact with or without Oswald's knowledge. Something along the lines of: (co-worker speaking): "Hey Lee, I'm heading up to the P.O. to buy some money orders. Want me to pick you up one?" Something along those lines. The good Samaritan could have picked up TWO money orders; bringing one back to lee Oswald at work & mailing the other off for a rifle without Lee's knowledge or consent. Who knows? Maybe Oswald was told to order the rifle as part of a sting operation?

Jim, it's great to see you back! I have all your books, CTKA analysis & review articles, YouTube & Black Ops interviews. Nothing VB or DVP has ever published has ever impressed me. I think J.E. Hoover described the evidence best to LBJ. Hoover said the evidence 'wasn't very good'. Those that season it, polish it or apply lipstick to it do not take away what Hoover said about it; they just cause me to buy longer waders when stepping in the snake oil.

After the fact creations are a part of life in the military. One of my commanders in Germany had people scattered all over the country; some in secret missions. Army regulations dictated each person had to qualify on their individual assigned weapons (usually M-16, .45 cal pistol) plus run a physical training test annually. This created a logistics & cost nightmare. A commander not in compliance could be removed. The solution:

phony records created & maintained by the company's Training NCO.

One advantage VB & others who have passed on that were interested or personally connected to the JFK case have in common over us mortals is that they all know exactly what happened & who was involved. According to my religious upbringing, we all will know the full truth once we punch out of this earthly time clock for good.

Best wishes & with the highest respect to Jim,

Brad

Edited July 10, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Tom Neal]

we'd have to believe that literally ALL of the many pieces of evidence that incriminate Oswald are fake or fraudulent pieces of evidence. And that notion is, of course, just plain ridiculous.

And of course we ALL know that JEH's FBI never framed anyone...

Keep up the GREAT stuff, Jim!

Tom

[David Von Pein]

You're going to need WAY more than just J. Edgar in this frame-up, Tom. You're going to need Fritz and Curry and many others from the DPD. And you'll need the Secret Service too. Plus the Dallas Sheriff's office.

As another LNer succinctly put it....

"[it was] either Oswald alone, or thousands working to make it look like Oz did it alone." -- Bud; January 19, 2007

[David Andrews]

"[it was] either Oswald alone, or thousands working to make it look like Oz did it alone." -- Bud; January 19, 2007

It didn't take thousands. It took a few dozen careerists, and thousands who feared them to look the other way.

Want proof of the psychology? Look at this recession we're in.

[Jim Hargrove]

Go, Jim, go!!! Great to see you back here!!!