David Atlee Phillips And Absolute Power

[Stan Wilbourne]

I've been reading again about David Atlee Phillips' involvement in the assassination of JFK. It seems all but a certainity he was a major player in the orchestration of removing Kennedy from office.

This brings us to another level of the conspiracy. Well beyond Oswald, Ruby, Banister, the Cubans, and all of that. Now, my question is who was above Phillips in the conspiratorial food chain?

I asked this once of Larry Hancock, and he told me -- if I remember correctly -- that he thought it was entirely possible Phillips was acting on his own accord to get rid of John Kennedy. I just have a hard time believing this. It would seem to me that Phillips was acting on orders from those in a positon to protect his ass should any of his involvment come to light.

Now, who would that be? Who had the positon, the power, the inclination in 1963 to go to Phillips and give him the order to begin the process of ridding the country of JFK? I know John Simkin's has written recently that he thought the power of the military industrial complex came to Phillips with this directive.

This also leads to the question did this directive come from inside or outside the government? I know these lines get blurred, but this appears to me to be a crucial question.

I know that the power and riches of Texas oil is brought up again and again as a key to Kennedy's murder. Phillips certainly had ties there. But is there a power greater that moved against John Kennedy?

I remember years ago watching the movie Executive Action. A very small group of powerful men gathered. After many such discussions it is decided, Kennedy must go. Would these types of men have turned to someone like Phillips and ordered him get rid of JFK?

Who are the ruling families of the United States? The power that removed Kennedy wasn't a rogue element or agent of the CIA. It was absolute and knew it. Forty-one years later is a testament to that fact.

Rockefeller? Morgan?

[Larry Hancock]

Stan, I think that I should probably go on record that although there is every evidence that David Phillips was a man who could make his own decisions, was pretty fantically anti-Castro, anti-Communist and anti-JFK I would doubt that he would be a single prime mover behind the conspiracy.

I would say that its possible to make a good case that David Morales, John Roselli and David Phillips were involved in the conspiracy and that if anything Phillips role related more to Oswald and framing Castro while Morales drove the attack itself.

What I was probably trying to say to you is that Phillips can be associated with a lot of movers including very wealthy people in Texas but that personally I can't connect the dots to specifically to invdividuals above the three names above - not in a way to satisfy myself at least.

-- Larry

[Wim Dankbaar]

Stan,

Superiors of David Atlee Philips .... I would have to speculate : Dulles, Fitzgerald, Cabell , LBJ, Nixon, McCloy, Alton Ochsner.

Wim

[John Simkin]

What I was probably trying to say to you is that Phillips can be associated with a lot of movers including very wealthy people in Texas but that  personally I can't connect the dots to specifically to invdividuals above the three names above - not in a way to satisfy myself at least.

Any evidence that Phillips or Morales were connected in anyway with George Brown and the Suite 8F group? The name comes from the room in the Lamar Hotel in Houston where they held their meetings. It was this group that was giving LBJ his orders before 1960. LBJ tried to distance himself from this group when he became vice president. (They had been opposed to this move as they thought it would reduce his power ).

The Suite 8F are discussed in some detail in Dan Briody’s excellent new book, The Halliburton Agenda. As Briody points out, members of this group did very well out of his presidency. For example, George Brown’s company, Brown & Root, was taken over by Halliburton and became the main contractor in Vietnam. This of course was the start of Halliburton’s profitable contracts with the US government.

[Wim Dankbaar]

I found this interesting discussion on Phillips:

http://groups.msn.com/BigDaddysCafe/histor...441271746035795

I am still of the opinion that it will be hard to refute first of all, Phillips' own narcissistic compulsions to place symbolic levels of meanings about Dealey Plaza in his books during his publishing life, and second, to refute and dismiss the presence and complicity in Dealey Plaza -- witting or unwitting -- of men who were part of the core organization for Operation Zapata, and who later were hired on through John Mitchell to serve as Nixon's "plumbers". Phillips close friend was E. Howard Hunt; they both worked with Bernard Barker and Ed Lansdale -- among others -- during the Bay of Pigs invasion. While Phillips insists in "The Night Watch" that he was a CIA "Liberal", these were his friends; he counted members of the Dallas Petroleum Club among his associates ("The Great Texas Murder Trials . . . ", 1979); and he had his own agenda in pushing the assassination. That agenda would only serve to extend the Cold War and the engagement in Vietnam. The thing to remember about Phillips' books is that he lies to the reader in narrative, but attempts to tell something of the truth in symbols, images and allegory.

Here's another link:

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_...e/rambler3.html

Byrd probably also knew George de Mohrenschildt, David Atlee Phillips and George Bush through the Dallas Petroleum Club.312 In 1945, future club member de Mohrenschildt obtained a masters degree in petroleum engineering after eighteen months at the University of Texas at Austin.313 During that year he was investigated by the FBI and ONI.

http://www.assassinationweb.com/shack3g.htm

Texan George Brown of Brown and Root was LBJ's chief financial sponsor. He also employed, 1958-1963, George DeMohrenschildt, Oswald's "closest friend" for the CIA in Dallas. Previously, DeMohrenschildt had worked for LBJ backer John Mecom. Oil barons Mecom, Murchison, Sid Richardson and H.L. Hunt were all described as his close friends, as well as then-oilman George Bush. These men met at the Dallas Petroleum Club and other private gathering spots. Among their associates were Harold Byrd (owner of the Texas School Book Depository), Dallas Mayor Cabell, Ted Dealey (publisher of the Dallas Morning News), and Abraham Zapruder, who filmed the assassination.

Edited December 20, 2004 by Wim Dankbaar

[Larry Hancock]

No John, not really. Morales connections were primarily to gambling types, first in Havana and then in Vegas. Phillips did have some minor oil connections in Texas where he and his family owned some leases but there's no sign that he was a known quantity in the oil business - what we do know for sure that Phillips did make contacts with people who were willing to make contributions to the Anti-Castro cause. That included Kleberg of King Ranch in Texas and some other individuals in New Orleans. Primarily these were people who had been doing business in Cuba while Phillips was stationed there; there is a list of some of the companies in my 2004 supplement, in the appendix "The WAVE way".

There are some suggestions that Phillips may have approached other people doing off the books fund raising for projects perhaps not on the official CIA task list but that is very speculative at present and again, the individuals would primarily have been those with pre-Castro business holdings in Cuba.

What I was probably trying to say to you is that Phillips can be associated with a lot of movers including very wealthy people in Texas but that  personally I can't connect the dots to specifically to invdividuals above the three names above - not in a way to satisfy myself at least.

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Any evidence that Phillips or Morales were connected in anyway with George Brown and the Suite 8F group? The name comes from the room in the Lamar Hotel in Houston where they held their meetings. It was this group that was giving LBJ his orders before 1960. LBJ tried to distance himself from this group when he became vice president. (They had been opposed to this move as they thought it would reduce his power ).

The Suite 8F are discussed in some detail in Dan Briody’s excellent new book, The Halliburton Agenda. As Briody points out, members of this group did very well out of his presidency. For example, George Brown’s company, Brown & Root, was taken over by Halliburton and became the main contractor in Vietnam. This of course was the start of Halliburton’s profitable contracts with the US government.

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[John Simkin]

No John,  not really.  Morales connections were primarily to gambling types,  first in Havana and then in Vegas.  Phillips did have some minor oil connections in Texas where he and his family owned some leases but there's no sign that he was a known quantity in the oil business - what we do know for sure that Phillips did make contacts with people who were willing to make contributions to the Anti-Castro cause.  That included Kleberg of King Ranch in Texas and some other individuals in New Orleans.  Primarily these were people who had been doing business in Cuba while Phillips was stationed there;  there is a list of some of the companies in my 2004 supplement, in the appendix "The WAVE way". 

Thanks. Any comments on Martin Shackelford's views quoted by Wim:

Texan George Brown of Brown and Root was LBJ's chief financial sponsor. He also employed, 1958-1963, George DeMohrenschildt, Oswald's "closest friend" for the CIA in Dallas. Previously, DeMohrenschildt had worked for LBJ backer John Mecom. Oil barons Mecom, Murchison, Sid Richardson and H.L. Hunt were all described as his close friends, as well as then-oilman George Bush. These men met at the Dallas Petroleum Club and other private gathering spots. Among their associates were Harold Byrd (owner of the Texas School Book Depository), Dallas Mayor Cabell, Ted Dealey (publisher of the Dallas Morning News), and Abraham Zapruder, who filmed the assassination.

[Shanet Clark]

No John,  not really.  Morales connections were primarily to gambling types,  first in Havana and then in Vegas.   Phillips did have some minor oil connections in Texas where he and his family owned some leases but there's no sign that he was a known quantity in the oil business - what we do know for sure that Phillips did make contacts with people who were willing to make contributions to the Anti-Castro cause.   That included Kleberg of King Ranch in Texas and some other individuals in New Orleans.  Primarily these were people who had been doing business in Cuba while Phillips was stationed there;  there is a list of some of the companies in my 2004 supplement, in the appendix "The WAVE way". 

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Thanks. Any comments on Martin Shackelford's views quoted by Wim:

Texan George Brown of Brown and Root was LBJ's chief financial sponsor. He also employed, 1958-1963, George DeMohrenschildt, Oswald's "closest friend" for the CIA in Dallas. Previously, DeMohrenschildt had worked for LBJ backer John Mecom. Oil barons Mecom, Murchison, Sid Richardson and H.L. Hunt were all described as his close friends, as well as then-oilman George Bush. These men met at the Dallas Petroleum Club and other private gathering spots. Among their associates were Harold Byrd (owner of the Texas School Book Depository), Dallas Mayor Cabell, Ted Dealey (publisher of the Dallas Morning News), and Abraham Zapruder, who filmed the assassination.

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DEAR JOHN

That Indeed appears to be the team in place the second the shot is fired, the Brown Texas team, who are in place and go to work at 12:30 11/22/63...

We are looking for links between this group and David Attlee Philips, who with his partner in WH domestic (US) CIA operations in 1963 Howard Hunt, put together the team exterior to the Texas Building (TBSD).

I think this coordination is very highly placed and while illegal and treasonous, was partially exonerated and qualified by the twenty-fifth amendment. In light of that I look at the Vice President and Cabinet level advisors. SInce the behavior of the Secret Service included dramatic brakings and halts, I look at the role of people around Clarence Douglas Dillon. The Bundys, Robert Lowell, Maxwell Taylor, Marshall Carter, John McCone, John McCloy were evidently satisfied that an effort would not be prevented in the event the incapacity of the commander in chief could be established by secret eavesdopping material. This goes to a tradition in Cold War Counter-Intelligence of doing the damage your enemy seeks to do to yourself, as a pre-emptive mode of power.

By developing material on Kennedy's extra marital affairs and illegal 1960s drug use, for example, a security classification could be lost, even by an elected President, in the Brinksmanship era of the first Pentagon generation.

DeMorenschildt was also a compromising force, a conduit back to the KGB, but he could deliver the Dallas character, while Mr. Giancana, Mr. Trafficante and Mr. Roselli could provide the actual technicians Mr. Phillips and Mr. Hunt (WH DomOps) needed.

For this reason, advance knowledge but not full knowledge of the executive rationale (incapacity) Harvey and Barnes sent an 'abort team' to cover their backs, so JM/WAVE would look alert, knowledgeable and less than treasonous (except for ROSELLI)

[David Boylan]

No John,  not really.  Morales connections were primarily to gambling types,  first in Havana and then in Vegas.  Phillips did have some minor oil connections in Texas where he and his family owned some leases but there's no sign that he was a known quantity in the oil business - what we do know for sure that Phillips did make contacts with people who were willing to make contributions to the Anti-Castro cause.  That included Kleberg of King Ranch in Texas and some other individuals in New Orleans.  Primarily these were people who had been doing business in Cuba while Phillips was stationed there;  there is a list of some of the companies in my 2004 supplement, in the appendix "The WAVE way". 

There are some suggestions that Phillips may have approached other people doing off the books fund raising for projects perhaps not on the official CIA task list but that is very speculative at present and again,  the individuals would primarily have been those with pre-Castro business holdings in Cuba.

Larry,

If memory serves me, wasn't William Trull associated with the King Ranch? Trull was reportedly Paulino Sierra's entree into certain circles when Sierra first started his new anti-Castro organization (JGCE).

Dave

[Alan Kent]

Searching up a chain of command for orders or approval for many of the early '60's activities of Phillips (or several other suspect movers in this case) is akin to trying to grip Jello. In 1963, Phillips flitted from Mexico City to Washington to JM Wave, wearing several hats. It is arguable that his nominal superiors (Win Scott and Desmond Fitzgerald) frequently had little knowledge of his contacts and day-to-day movement. He apparently enjoyed a great deal of autonomy, and free-lanced often.

It is well to remember that, at the height of the Cuban Missile crisis, Phillips (as Maurice Bishop) authorized Alpha 66 raids on Russian installations that could well have had catastrophic results. I doubt that Phillips superiors would have signed off on these inflammatory actions at that time.

During the early 1960's, arguably the height of the cold war, operators such as Phillips and Bill Harvey had frighteningly long leashes and associated with and encouraged criminally violent, ideologically motivated men.This dynamic led, I believe, to the "Phase One" plotting against Kennedy.

[Larry Hancock]

Dave, Trull was indeed a friend of the King ranch folks and we now know that it was they who introduced him to Sierra after a meeting with him. Apparently it was felt that Sierra needed an American who was a good talker to assist and they thought Trull would serve that role.

Given this thread it is also worth noting that we now have documents that show that Phillips was very well entrenched with a lot of the old school Cuban and American businessmen who very much wanted access to Cuba again. This involved not only the King Ranch folks but the Freeport Sulpher people (Phillips was introduced to them and apparently traveled to New Oreleans for meetings) as well as the whole Lobo sugar axis of companies in New York. The range of Phillips connections is extremely impressive. I think it is probably worth pointing out though that he does not have seemed to be spending all that much time in Florida in 1963 and that others had much more direct contact with Cuban exiles, both pro and anti-Kennedy during 1963. Much more on that will come out in print this fall it appears. I'm certainly not writing Phillips out of the whole equation but I've also come to feel that it would indeed not be as simple a matter as he, by himself, inciting a plot to kill the President.

No John,  not really.  Morales connections were primarily to gambling types,  first in Havana and then in Vegas.   Phillips did have some minor oil connections in Texas where he and his family owned some leases but there's no sign that he was a known quantity in the oil business - what we do know for sure that Phillips did make contacts with people who were willing to make contributions to the Anti-Castro cause.   That included Kleberg of King Ranch in Texas and some other individuals in New Orleans.  Primarily these were people who had been doing business in Cuba while Phillips was stationed there;  there is a list of some of the companies in my 2004 supplement, in the appendix "The WAVE way". 

There are some suggestions that Phillips may have approached other people doing off the books fund raising for projects perhaps not on the official CIA task list but that is very speculative at present and again,  the individuals would primarily have been those with pre-Castro business holdings in Cuba.

Larry,

If memory serves me, wasn't William Trull associated with the King Ranch? Trull was reportedly Paulino Sierra's entree into certain circles when Sierra first started his new anti-Castro organization (JGCE).

Dave

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[James Richards]

Given this thread it is also worth noting that we now have documents that show that Phillips was very well entrenched with a lot of the old school Cuban and American businessmen who very much wanted access to Cuba again. This involved not only the King Ranch folks but the Freeport Sulpher people (Phillips was introduced to them and apparently traveled to New Oreleans for meetings) as well as the whole Lobo sugar axis of companies in New York. (Larry Hancock)

Hi Larry,

I found it interesting that one of the Bay of Pigs planners and advocate for the assassination of Castro, Arleigh Burke (below), was on the Board of Directors for Freeport Sulphur.

Do you give any credibility to the possibility that John Roselli was receiving money in the early days of Castro assassination plans from Freeport Sulphur?

James

[Larry Hancock]

James, I've never seen anything to indicate that Roselli was connected

to Freeport, much less taking money from them. His money was

virtually all from deal making within the LA and Vegas venues.

Not that he didn't have connections in New Orleans but if Freeport was one of

them it would be news...

-- Larry

Given this thread it is also worth noting that we now have documents that show that Phillips was very well entrenched with a lot of the old school Cuban and American businessmen who very much wanted access to Cuba again.  This involved not only the King Ranch folks but the Freeport Sulpher people (Phillips was introduced to them and apparently traveled to New Oreleans for meetings) as well as the whole Lobo sugar axis of companies in New York.   (Larry Hancock)

Hi Larry,

I found it interesting that one of the Bay of Pigs planners and advocate for the assassination of Castro, Arleigh Burke (below), was on the Board of Directors for Freeport Sulphur.

Do you give any credibility to the possibility that John Roselli was receiving money in the early days of Castro assassination plans from Freeport Sulphur?

James

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[James Richards]

James, I've never seen anything to indicate that Roselli was connected

to Freeport, much less taking money from them. His money was

virtually all from deal making within the LA and Vegas venues.

Not that he didn't have connections in New Orleans but if Freeport was one of

them it would be news... (Larry Hancock)

Larry,

I mentioned it because and I am going on memory here, that a contact (can not recall his name) of Andrew Sciambra told him that a Mr. Wight of Freeport Sulphur contacted him regarding an assassination attempt against Castro.

A Charles Wight was a director of Freeport Sulphur.

In Peter Wyden's 'Bay of Pigs - The Untold Story', John Roselli told his Cuban contacts that he represented Wall Street money men who amongst other things, had nickel interests in Cuba.

Freeport Nickel Company was a subsidiary of Freeport Sulphur. Given that Roselli was the one approached for the early Castro assassination plots, Freeport Sulphur may have been one of the early benefactors?

A few leaps of faith required but worth pondering I believe.

James

[Larry Hancock]

James, I'm not sure I can leap all that way with you but I do know the following:

1) Many of the companies operating in Cuba, Freeport and King Ranch among them, were coerced by Castro for donations - it went as far as kidnapping personnel and holding hostages. The point man for the collection efforts worked thorugh New York and eventually defected via New York and became a very active anti-Castro leader....eventually commanding the Tejuna III which was obtained in New Orleans, funded out of Texas and coordinated by CIA. Introductions were made via the Lobo network out of NYC which I referenced earlier. Gets complex but I try to deal with it in a couple of appendices which will be in my second edition.

2) Bishop (Phillips) always used the cover of representing a group of businessmen whose interests were either threatened or taken over by Castro, I think that was a pretty simple and standard ploy and there was plenty of press around over the expropriation of American business to make it stick and to lend some names which could be implied. Seeing Roselli use the same line would be no great surprise, its either that or say that he is representing the syndicate (poor taste and maybe dangerous since its clear that he and Giancana were not acting with syndicae approval) or the CIA (even poorer taste and frowned on by his real employers).

There is absolutely no doubt from the paper trail that there was an axis of American companies serving as a peripheral (one step removed) network which aided and in many cases funded moves against Castro which could be deniable by the CIA. Fellow travelers is one way to think of it but these guys had clout and no problems about using people....its clear that some folks who thought they were working for the US government or CIA were recruited and paid by this network. It takes the concept of fronts and covers way beyond what my simple mind can handle...

-- Larry

James,  I've never seen anything to indicate that Roselli was connected

to Freeport, much less taking money from them.  His money was

virtually all from deal making within the LA and Vegas venues. 

Not that he didn't have connections in New Orleans but if Freeport was one of

them it would be news... (Larry Hancock)

Larry,

I mentioned it because and I am going on memory here, that a contact (can not recall his name) of Andrew Sciambra told him that a Mr. Wight of Freeport Sulphur contacted him regarding an assassination attempt against Castro.

A Charles Wight was a director of Freeport Sulphur.

In Peter Wyden's 'Bay of Pigs - The Untold Story', John Roselli told his Cuban contacts that he represented Wall Street money men who amongst other things, had nickel interests in Cuba.

Freeport Nickel Company was a subsidiary of Freeport Sulphur. Given that Roselli was the one approached for the early Castro assassination plots, Freeport Sulphur may have been one of the early benefactors?

A few leaps of faith required but worth pondering I believe.

James

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