Jump to content


Spartacus

J. D. Tippit: Was he part of the conspiracy?


  • Please log in to reply
365 replies to this topic

#121 Ron Ecker

Ron Ecker

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4,195 posts

Posted 31 August 2006 - 04:42 AM

James,

There must be some mistake. That looks to me like a picture of George H.W. Bush and William Harvey. (I wonder what they could be talking about.)

Ron

#122 James Richards

James Richards

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,288 posts
  • Location:The Gold Coast, Australia

Posted 31 August 2006 - 06:32 AM

James,

There must be some mistake. That looks to me like a picture of George H.W. Bush and William Harvey. (I wonder what they could be talking about.)

Ron


Funny stuff, Ron. :)

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that Wilson F. Warren on the right in the image below?

James

#123 Steve Thomas

Steve Thomas

    Advanced Member

  • JFK
  • PipPipPip
  • 948 posts

Posted 31 August 2006 - 07:25 PM

Peter,

...and can we pin down which of the 3[!] Tippits on the force Ruby knew by that name....perhaps from one of his staff or friends?


Jack Ruby did not call G.M. Tippit "Slick".

Steve Thomas

#124 Chuck Robbins

Chuck Robbins

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 381 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Southern California
  • Interests:I guess I am pretty boring. Have only a few interests, such as reading trying to learn something new every day, and, of course, trying to find some answers to what happened to our country on 11/22/1963. .
    .

Posted 02 September 2006 - 12:08 AM


In an interview with Chicago attorney Elmer Gertz (who was part of the legal team which won the reversal of the death sentence given to Ruby in 1964), Bernard Gavzer wrote that when Ruby was asked about knowing Tippit, he said, "First of all, there were three Tippits in the police department. The one who was shot I never knew, never heard of. One of the other Tippits I knew."

FWIW.

James

On December 5, 1963, during a telephone interview, Ruby's sister Eva Grant told the New York Herald Tribune that: "Jack knew [Officer Tippit] and I knew him.... Jack called him "buddy." [I've read a single reference, though I cannot currently recall where, that among Tippit's nicknames was "Buddy," giving the Eva Grant quote a slightly different connotation than was inferred by the writer.]

On the same date, Eva Grant told the Boston Globe that: "Jack knew J.D. Tippit - I knew him too. He used to come into both the Vegas Club and the Carousel Club many times. He was a fine man."

Needless to say, Eva Grant's appearance before the Warren Commission saw her saying something else, in order that the Commission could conclude there was no evidence Tippit and Ruby knew each other. To wit:

"Speculation.--Ruby's sister, Mrs. Eva Grant, said that Ruby and Tippit were "like two brothers."

Commission finding.--Mrs. Grant has denied ever making this statement or any statement like it, saying it was untrue and without foundation. Ruby was acquainted with another Dallas policeman named Tippit, but this was G. M. Tippit of the special services bureau of the department, not the Tippit who was killed."


How did Eva Grant recant what she'd told several reporters some months earlier? By confusing the issue by naming all the DPD cops who had a similar name:

Mr. Burleson: Do you know whether or not Jack knew Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mrs. Grant: He said he knew a Tippit but it's like me there was a Tipton, a Tippit, and a Tipin (spelling) p-i-n, and a Tipton, and as far as I was concerned, even when Payton was talking to me, they were all the same man, until much later I found out there are three Tippits, there is a Tipton and a Tipin.


This non-denial response served to confuse more than explain. Unfortunately for Mrs. Grant's credibility, others recalled only too well precisely the same information she's earlier shared with news reporters, only to deny it to the Commission.

For example, here's what the FBI learned from Stella Coffman, Ruby's head waitress from 1948 to 1953 at the Silver Spur: "Officer Tippit had patrolled the area of the Silver Spur, which Jack used to own. He made numerous visits to the club and was a close friend of Jack's."

Here's what Larry Crafard, Ruby's Carousel Club gofer told the Commission about Ruby's response upon learning of Tippit's death: "Ruby said he knew Tippit, and Ruby referred to him by his first name, or a nickname, neither of which I can remember now. He said he knew him quite well. He was definitely referring to J.D. Tippit, the Dallas Police Officer who was shot on the day of the assassination."

Andrew Armstrong, the Carousel Club assistant manager and general factotum, was also present when Ruby learned of Tippit's death, and corroborated Crafard's account:

Mr. Hubert: Did you know Officer Tippit, the man that was shot by Oswald?

Mr. Armstrong: No, sir.

Mr. Hubert: Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew him?

Mr. Armstrong: He said that he knew Officer Tippit, but from what I gather later on--Mrs. Grant told me it was a different Officer Tippit that he knew. In other words, there was two officers that had the name of Tippit, from what I gather, and Jack said when the news was coming over the radio about the policeman being shot, that it was Officer Tippit; Jack jumped straight up and said, "I know him--I know him." Just like that.


From the foregoing, it seems clear that Ruby knew Tippit reasonably well. His sister told reporters that this was so. Stella Coffman, who'd worked for Ruby a decade earlier at the Silver Spur recalled seeing Tippit there and called him Ruby's "close friend." Ruby's contemporary employees said it was true by Ruby's own spontaneous admission [with Crafard accommodatingly specifying that it was "J.D." and no other Tippit]. Eva Grant's subsequent attempt to persuade Armstrong otherwise, and to obfuscate before the Commission, was a poor attempt to lock the barn door well after the horses had already bolted.


Thank you for posting this information.

Having this kind of information available, for us, as well as for the public at large, is invaluable as it shows that the Ruby-Tippit connection had already been made, until the WC managed to bury the evidence.

Again, evidence, showing the very real possibility of a conspiracy, was countered by having persons change their stories while giving testimony before the commission.

Had this been a real trial, before a real judge, these witnesses would have been challenged by Oswald's defense attorney.

Not being an attorney I cannot say that their testimony would have been impeached, however, at the very least, the question would have been raised as to whether their current testimony, or their prior statements, was the truth.

Perhaps the very act of telling two very different stories was a tactic designed to render these witnesses testimony suspect? Either way it was a win-win proposition for the commission and it's obvious goal of "proving" no connection between Ruby and Tippit.


James,

There must be some mistake. That looks to me like a picture of George H.W. Bush and William Harvey. (I wonder what they could be talking about.)

Ron


Funny stuff, Ron. ;)

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that Wilson F. Warren on the right in the image below?

James


Funny indeed.

The very first thought in my mind when viewing that picture was "Hey!! That's George Bush!".

Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that it IS George Bush....just that it sure looks like GHWB.

#125 William Kelly

William Kelly

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9,151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 September 2006 - 07:26 AM

When I first met the late Larry Harris at one of the early ASK conferences in Dallas, he gave me this timeline, which he later elaborated on. - BK



Tippit Timeline – per Larry Harris.

12:30 pm – JFK Assassinated, Dealey Plaza.

12:35 pm – Oswald leaves the Book Depository, walks two blocks east, gets on a bus going back towards Dealey Plaza. The bus gets stuck in traffic, Oswald gets off bus (taking a transfer ticket). He walks to the Greyhound bus station, flags down a cab, but offers it to a little old lady who declines. He takes the cab to either 500 or 700 block of North Beckley, 3 to 5 blocks past his rooming house, and walks back.

12:45 pm – DPD radio dispatcher (who is J.D. Tippit’s best friend), instructs Tippit (#78 Car #10) to move from South Dallas to central Oak Cliff and be at large for any emergency. (This instruction to Tippit does not appear in a transcript of pertinent 11/22/63 radio transmission prepared by the DPD in December and submitted to the WC. Its omission gives rise to speculation that the 12:45 instruction was subsequently edited into the tapes to provide a legitimate explanation for Tippit being so far from his assigned district at the time of his murder.)

12:54 pm – Oswald arrives at rooming house.

1:00 pm – Dallas PD radio dispatcher calls patrolman Tippit but receives no response.

1:00 pm – Sitting in the living room watching the assassination news on TV, housekeeper Earlene Roberts says hello to Oswald as he goes to his room. She sees a DPD squad car pull up out front, beep its horn twice, then slowly drive away. Oswald ostensibly gets a jacket and revolver, and is not in his room for more than three minutes.

1:03 pm – Oswald leaves rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley

1:03 pm – Tippit stops in the Top Ten record shop on Jefferson Blvd. near the theater and makes a telephone call on the pay phone. He says nothing and hangs up.

1:04 pm – Roberts observes Oswald standing at the bus stop across the street. This bus route would have taken Oswald back to center city Dallas.

1:04 pm – Helen Markham looks at wall clock before leaving her apartment to catch a bus that she usually gets at 1:12pm. (According to a SS reenactment, it takes two minutes thirty seconds to walk from the washateria to the corner of 10th & Patton – 1:04 + 2:30 = 1:06/07pm).

1:07 pm – Markham one block from Jefferson street bus stop.

1:08 pm – Tippit calls the DPD dispatcher, but receives no response. He has encountered and pauses to speak with a white male pedestrian who is walking west on East 10th Street, near Patton. According to the Warren Report, Oswald was walking east on 10th Street. But almost without exception, contemporaneous reports prepared by the Dallas Police, the FBI and SS state the suspect was walking west on 10th and continued in a westerly direction after the shooting.

1:09 pm – (PROBIBLE) Officer Tippit is shot four times by an unidentified white male pedestrian near the intersection of 10th & Patton (none of the four bullets removed from Tippit’s body are traceable to Oswald’s revolver; four shell casings purportedly found at the scene do not match up with the bullets: 3 Western/ 1 Remington bullets as opposed to 2 Western/ 4 Remington shells).

1:10 pm – T. F. Bowley approaches the scene at 10th & Patton in his car; he gets out to assist Tippit and intentionally notes the time by glancing at his wristwatch: 1:10 pm.

1:14 pm – Domingo Benavides, the closest witness to the shooting, was crouched in his pickup truck, fearful of the gunman. He gets out of his truck and tries to assist Tippit before he picks up the radio in Tippit’s patrol car, but he doesn’t know how to use it.

1:15 pm – According to the Warren Commission, a mile away from the rooming house, Dallas policeman J.D. Tippit is shot and killed by Oswald, who flees on foot.

1:17 pm – Oswald, who presumably shot Tippit, makes his way 6/10ths of a mile down Jefferson Blvd., which is the central business district of the Oak Cliff section of Dallas, moving towards the Texas Theater.

1:26 pm – A white jacket, apparently discarded by the suspect, is found on a nearby parking lot by a policeman. A gray jacket is later turned over to the Warren Commission. It bears a laundry tag that has never been identified, and a manufacturer’s tag that indicates it was sold at the Philadelphia Strawbridge & Clothier store.

1: 30 pm – Tippit is pronounced DOA at Methodist Hospital.

1:35 pm – Quoting an eyewitness, a DPD patrolman notifies the radio dispatcher that the suspect has “black, wavy hair” and is armed with a .32 caliber automatic pistol.

1:40 pm – Sgt. Jerry Hill notifies the radio dispatcher that the shell casings at the scene indicated the suspect is armed with a .38 automatic handgun. (When Oswald is arrested at the Texas theater, he is carrying a six shot revolver, not an automatic).

1:40? pm – Oswald ducks into the vestibule of a shoe store, where he was observed by the manager, who thought this suspicious. Police cars go by, Oswald is in the vestibule, walks out and goes into the movie theater without buying a ticket. The shoe salesman talks to the ticket taker and they notify the police. They had heard that a policeman had been shot not far away.

1:45 pm – A hoard of Dallas police officers, a couple of FBI agents and an assistant district attorney all descent on the Texas Theater. They go in, turn up the lights and in some for or fashion, Oswald is brought to the attention of the police. A patrolman approaches Owald. Oswald allegedly strikes a patrolman, McDonald, and then attempts to pull his revolver from the waistband of his pants, attempts to shoot McDonald, the gun misfires, McDonald’s thumb catches the hammer and the gun doesn’t fire. They scuffle with Oswald and arrest him. He says, “I am not resisting arrest, I am not resisting arrest.”

1:50 pm – Oswald arrested inside the Texas Theater, six blocks from where Tippit was shot. Dallas police later said they had no prior knowledge of Oswald, and that his arrest, initially, was unrelated to the JFK assassination. But as officers beat Oswald during his arrest, a witness heard a policeman shout, “Kill the President, will you!” As Oswald is led from the theater, an employee heard an officer remark, “I think we got our man on both counts.” They take him downtown for the Tippit murder and later learn he was employed at the Book Depository, and later that evening he is charged for the murder of Tippit.

7:10 pm – Lee Harvey Oswald is formally charged with the murder of Officer J.D. Tippit. Oswald angrily responds, “That’s ridiculous!”

Edited by William Kelly, 04 September 2006 - 10:48 AM.


#126 Thomas Graves

Thomas Graves

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,983 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:La Jolla, California
  • Interests:Activities of Sicilian-born brothers Anthony and Paul Mirabile (both deceased) in Detroit, Canada, Los Angeles, San Diego, and Tijuana, Mexico

Posted 29 February 2008 - 07:43 AM

Allow me to interject some thoughts here:

[...]


(4) Tippit violated police procedure by “failing to make use of the radio beside him to notify his fellow-officers that he was stopping to question a suspect in the Kennedy assassination”.


That once again assumes that he was stopping a "suspect." There is nothing to support that speculation since he did not radio in. It is only assumed because (i) it is assumed that the man he approached was Oswald, and (ii) that Oswald became a suspect well after the fact.
[...]

__________________________________________

Duke,

I think it's logical to assume that Tippit had gotten out of his car to either 1) talk with a friend, 2) talk with or shoot a co-conspirator, or 3) have a conversation with another policeman (whose patrol car was seen, by a neighbor, in the driveway which was blocked by Tippits's patrol car; see Dixie Dea's post #12 this thread). I can't imagine a policeman getting out of his patrol car to 1) question/arrest any kind of suspect without calling the dispatcher first, or 2) to get out of his patrol car to "shoot the breeze" with a complete stranger.

Personally, I like George B.'s scenario (presented in post #18 this thread) in which I think he suggests that Tippit was shot by another policeman (or someone posing as a policeman?), and that LHO's identification was planted at the scene of the murder, thereby killing two birds with one stone: 1) framing LHO, and 2) drawing attention away from DP where the real assassins were covering their tracks/escaping.

FWIW,
--Thomas
__________________________________________

Edited by Thomas Graves, 29 February 2008 - 02:01 PM.


#127 Duke Lane

Duke Lane

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Universally loved and admired for his keen wit, sharp intellect, loathsome egoism, and awe-inspiring self-delusion, Lane studies the JFK assassination from afar, offers few opinions, and generally keeps to himself.

Posted 29 February 2008 - 04:26 PM

Duke,

I think it's logical to assume that Tippit had gotten out of his car to either 1) talk with a friend, 2) talk with or shoot a co-conspirator, or 3) have a conversation with another policeman (whose patrol car was seen, by a neighbor, in the driveway which was blocked by Tippits's patrol car; see Dixie Dea's post #12 this thread). I can't imagine a policeman getting out of his patrol car to 1) question/arrest any kind of suspect without calling the dispatcher first, or 2) to get out of his patrol car to "shoot the breeze" with a complete stranger.

Personally, I like George B.'s scenario (presented in post #18 this thread) in which I think he suggests that Tippit was shot by another policeman (or someone posing as a policeman?), and that LHO's identification was planted at the scene of the murder, thereby killing two birds with one stone: 1) framing LHO, and 2) drawing attention away from DP where the real assassins were covering their tracks/escaping.

FWIW,
--Thomas
__________________________________________

Thomas, I have to disagree with your interpretation of George's hypothesis, in which he posits that Tippit was part of the plot, etc., and I don't see where he posited "killing two birds with one stone," although I certainly recall that I have made that suggestion.

Let's just pretend the following:

Officer Tippit was part of the assasination and his job was to get LHO out of town to the Red Bird Airport. For the cover of LHO he took a second uniform so it would look like two cops which was the normal case.

The plan was changed an LHO was given the signal by the police car that honked twice in front of his room. This change of course could have been the plan right from the beginning but was not told to everybody. The signal made LHO nervous so he took his weapon with him when going to the meeting point of plan B the Texas theater.

Tippit was waiting for Oswald but he did'nt show up, so Tippit rushed to the Top Ten Record Shop to make a phone call but could not reach anybody, so he went back to the streets desperatly looking for Oswald.

„Professor Bill Pulte has a possible explanation for Tippit's erratic movements in the final minutes of his life. Hel explained that Tippit's movements are consistent with the actions of a man frantically looking for someone."

Tippit spotted a police car between 404 and 410 East Tenth Street. He pulls back and parks the car. After a short argument he got shoot and Oswalds ID is placed at the murder scene. Now the have a reason to charge LHO with murder of a police officer and he will be arrested. There might be a little chance that Oswald get shoot during the attempt of arresting but there are further plans that bring up Ruby.

Oswald meanwhile a little late due to the traffic problems on his way home, rushes to the Texas theater and forgets to buy a ticket. Because of the shooting in the neighbourhood a man running is always suspicious so he's reportet to the police.

So Tippit's part was never more than being the victim of Oswald[,] kind of the patsy of the patsy.

This scenario is rife with other issues, some of which I'd pointed out, and while I'd typically be wont to point them out, I have neither the time nor inclination to do that at this very moment. But let it be said that there is plenty of evidence to suggest - if not actually prove - that the "killing two birds with one stone" scenario is, at the very least, plausible if not entirely factual. I don't believe Tippit was cognizent of it in any way at all.

#128 William Kelly

William Kelly

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9,151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 February 2008 - 07:10 PM

Duke,

I think it's logical to assume that Tippit had gotten out of his car to either 1) talk with a friend, 2) talk with or shoot a co-conspirator, or 3) have a conversation with another policeman (whose patrol car was seen, by a neighbor, in the driveway which was blocked by Tippits's patrol car; see Dixie Dea's post #12 this thread). I can't imagine a policeman getting out of his patrol car to 1) question/arrest any kind of suspect without calling the dispatcher first, or 2) to get out of his patrol car to "shoot the breeze" with a complete stranger.

Personally, I like George B.'s scenario (presented in post #18 this thread) in which I think he suggests that Tippit was shot by another policeman (or someone posing as a policeman?), and that LHO's identification was planted at the scene of the murder, thereby killing two birds with one stone: 1) framing LHO, and 2) drawing attention away from DP where the real assassins were covering their tracks/escaping.

FWIW,
--Thomas
__________________________________________

Thomas, I have to disagree with your interpretation of George's hypothesis, in which he posits that Tippit was part of the plot, etc., and I don't see where he posited "killing two birds with one stone," although I certainly recall that I have made that suggestion.

Let's just pretend the following:

Officer Tippit was part of the assasination and his job was to get LHO out of town to the Red Bird Airport. For the cover of LHO he took a second uniform so it would look like two cops which was the normal case.

The plan was changed an LHO was given the signal by the police car that honked twice in front of his room. This change of course could have been the plan right from the beginning but was not told to everybody. The signal made LHO nervous so he took his weapon with him when going to the meeting point of plan B the Texas theater.

Tippit was waiting for Oswald but he did'nt show up, so Tippit rushed to the Top Ten Record Shop to make a phone call but could not reach anybody, so he went back to the streets desperatly looking for Oswald.

„Professor Bill Pulte has a possible explanation for Tippit's erratic movements in the final minutes of his life. Hel explained that Tippit's movements are consistent with the actions of a man frantically looking for someone."

Tippit spotted a police car between 404 and 410 East Tenth Street. He pulls back and parks the car. After a short argument he got shoot and Oswalds ID is placed at the murder scene. Now the have a reason to charge LHO with murder of a police officer and he will be arrested. There might be a little chance that Oswald get shoot during the attempt of arresting but there are further plans that bring up Ruby.

Oswald meanwhile a little late due to the traffic problems on his way home, rushes to the Texas theater and forgets to buy a ticket. Because of the shooting in the neighbourhood a man running is always suspicious so he's reportet to the police.

So Tippit's part was never more than being the victim of Oswald[,] kind of the patsy of the patsy.

This scenario is rife with other issues, some of which I'd pointed out, and while I'd typically be wont to point them out, I have neither the time nor inclination to do that at this very moment. But let it be said that there is plenty of evidence to suggest - if not actually prove - that the "killing two birds with one stone" scenario is, at the very least, plausible if not entirely factual. I don't believe Tippit was cognizent of it in any way at all.



I think it is possible that the Dallas DA, having released more wrongfully convicted prisoners than any other DA in the country, will have to solve some of those crimes in which previous DAs got the wrong man.

Among the legally unresolved, unsolved cold case homicides in the Dallas DA files are JFK and JD Tippit.

It would be easier for the Dallas DA to solve the Tippit murder than JFK, and if in fact they are both attributable to one killer - that would make it a Spree Killing - more than one crime in more than one location - as well as a political assassination.

While the JFK assassination might be beyond the capabilities of a county prosecutor to solve, the killing of a cop is not.

Bill Kelly

#129 Robert Howard

Robert Howard

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,678 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 March 2008 - 02:38 AM

Duke,

I think it's logical to assume that Tippit had gotten out of his car to either 1) talk with a friend, 2) talk with or shoot a co-conspirator, or 3) have a conversation with another policeman (whose patrol car was seen, by a neighbor, in the driveway which was blocked by Tippits's patrol car; see Dixie Dea's post #12 this thread). I can't imagine a policeman getting out of his patrol car to 1) question/arrest any kind of suspect without calling the dispatcher first, or 2) to get out of his patrol car to "shoot the breeze" with a complete stranger.

Personally, I like George B.'s scenario (presented in post #18 this thread) in which I think he suggests that Tippit was shot by another policeman (or someone posing as a policeman?), and that LHO's identification was planted at the scene of the murder, thereby killing two birds with one stone: 1) framing LHO, and 2) drawing attention away from DP where the real assassins were covering their tracks/escaping.

FWIW,
--Thomas
__________________________________________

Thomas, I have to disagree with your interpretation of George's hypothesis, in which he posits that Tippit was part of the plot, etc., and I don't see where he posited "killing two birds with one stone," although I certainly recall that I have made that suggestion.

Let's just pretend the following:

Officer Tippit was part of the assasination and his job was to get LHO out of town to the Red Bird Airport. For the cover of LHO he took a second uniform so it would look like two cops which was the normal case.

The plan was changed an LHO was given the signal by the police car that honked twice in front of his room. This change of course could have been the plan right from the beginning but was not told to everybody. The signal made LHO nervous so he took his weapon with him when going to the meeting point of plan B the Texas theater.

Tippit was waiting for Oswald but he did'nt show up, so Tippit rushed to the Top Ten Record Shop to make a phone call but could not reach anybody, so he went back to the streets desperatly looking for Oswald.

„Professor Bill Pulte has a possible explanation for Tippit's erratic movements in the final minutes of his life. Hel explained that Tippit's movements are consistent with the actions of a man frantically looking for someone."

Tippit spotted a police car between 404 and 410 East Tenth Street. He pulls back and parks the car. After a short argument he got shoot and Oswalds ID is placed at the murder scene. Now the have a reason to charge LHO with murder of a police officer and he will be arrested. There might be a little chance that Oswald get shoot during the attempt of arresting but there are further plans that bring up Ruby.

Oswald meanwhile a little late due to the traffic problems on his way home, rushes to the Texas theater and forgets to buy a ticket. Because of the shooting in the neighbourhood a man running is always suspicious so he's reportet to the police.

So Tippit's part was never more than being the victim of Oswald[,] kind of the patsy of the patsy.

This scenario is rife with other issues, some of which I'd pointed out, and while I'd typically be wont to point them out, I have neither the time nor inclination to do that at this very moment. But let it be said that there is plenty of evidence to suggest - if not actually prove - that the "killing two birds with one stone" scenario is, at the very least, plausible if not entirely factual. I don't believe Tippit was cognizent of it in any way at all.



I think it is possible that the Dallas DA, having released more wrongfully convicted prisoners than any other DA in the country, will have to solve some of those crimes in which previous DAs got the wrong man.

Among the legally unresolved, unsolved cold case homicides in the Dallas DA files are JFK and JD Tippit.

It would be easier for the Dallas DA to solve the Tippit murder than JFK, and if in fact they are both attributable to one killer - that would make it a Spree Killing - more than one crime in more than one location - as well as a political assassination.

While the JFK assassination might be beyond the capabilities of a county prosecutor to solve, the killing of a cop is not.

Bill Kelly

I apologize if someone has already posted this information and/or the link.
It is very pertinent to this thread, if it hasn't been mentioned or discussed previously....If it has.......apologies.
http://www.maryferre...amp;relPageId=1

It is Fenton and Kelly's 10/24/77 interview with William Mentzell regarding his activities at the time he heard of Pres. Kennedy's assassination and the immediate aftermath regarding the death of Officer J.D. Tippit.

Edited by Robert Howard, 01 March 2008 - 02:42 AM.


#130 Duke Lane

Duke Lane

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Universally loved and admired for his keen wit, sharp intellect, loathsome egoism, and awe-inspiring self-delusion, Lane studies the JFK assassination from afar, offers few opinions, and generally keeps to himself.

Posted 01 March 2008 - 05:31 AM

I think it is possible that the Dallas DA, having released more wrongfully convicted prisoners than any other DA in the country, will have to solve some of those crimes in which previous DAs got the wrong man.

Among the legally unresolved, unsolved cold case homicides in the Dallas DA files are JFK and JD Tippit.

It would be easier for the Dallas DA to solve the Tippit murder than JFK, and if in fact they are both attributable to one killer - that would make it a Spree Killing - more than one crime in more than one location - as well as a political assassination.

While the JFK assassination might be beyond the capabilities of a county prosecutor to solve, the killing of a cop is not.

Bill Kelly

:rolleyes: Congratulations on the change of heart. You must've been reading up on my old posts, and decided that I wasn't nuts after all.

The shootings are not attributable to one killer as far as can be ascertained. If you've got more than pure guesswork to suggest that they are, I'm reasonably confident that there is a grand jury out there - even of one's own making, if that could be accomplished - that would be willing to entertain it.

#131 Duke Lane

Duke Lane

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Universally loved and admired for his keen wit, sharp intellect, loathsome egoism, and awe-inspiring self-delusion, Lane studies the JFK assassination from afar, offers few opinions, and generally keeps to himself.

Posted 01 March 2008 - 05:53 AM

I apologize if someone has already posted this information and/or the link.

It is very pertinent to this thread, if it hasn't been mentioned or discussed previously....If it has.......apologies.
http://www.maryferre...amp;relPageId=1

It is Fenton and Kelly's 10/24/77 interview with William Mentzell regarding his activities at the time he heard of Pres. Kennedy's assassination and the immediate aftermath regarding the death of Officer J.D. Tippit.

It is indeed quite pertinent that W.D. Mentzel was the only DPD patrol officer who was assigned to be on duty that day was also the only DPD officer assigned to be on duty who was at lunch in the same patrol district where a fellow officer was gunned down, and which fellow officer was in Mentzel's patrol district (supposedly) precisely because Mentzel was not available and DPD was "short of resources" in Oak Cliff at the time and hence had to call Tippit from his patrol district to cover for Mentzel, uh, in the event an assassin fled south out of downtown.

(Incidentally, is anyone aware of an officer being assigned to "remain at large" anywhere north, east or west of downtown in case an assassin decided to flee in one of those directions, or in case "any emergency [might] come in?")

Truth is, if one examines the transcripts of Channel One, Mentzel was indeed sent to investigate an accident in approximately the same location of Davis as he stated ... but was ordered to do so after the "citizen" call by T.F. Bowley had already been made; that is, "officer down in Oak Cliff" ... "officer here in Oak Cliff" ... "officer in Oak Cliff, go investigate an accident instead." 10-4.

Of course, we still have yet to mention that there was another DPD patrol in Oak Cliff immediately before the Tippit shooting who not only did NOT later report that he had been in that section of town, but also did not apparently respond to the Tippit shooting, and would have been highly suspect for having done so since his patrol area was some 10 miles away, and he did report that he never left his district and spent the aftermath conducting a "roadblock," which one supposes Mentzell might've been ordered to do (or done on his own, since nobody else was apparently ordered to do so either).

That third officer was last heard of as he reported being in Oak Cliff less than 30 seconds before Tippit himself was assigned to go there because DPD was "short of resources" in that area.

Thanks for the doc, Robert; I'd never seen that before. Self-serving prevarication, if you ask me. Mentzell is, I understand, deceased at this time, and fully intends to remain so.

#132 Thomas Graves

Thomas Graves

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,983 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:La Jolla, California
  • Interests:Activities of Sicilian-born brothers Anthony and Paul Mirabile (both deceased) in Detroit, Canada, Los Angeles, San Diego, and Tijuana, Mexico

Posted 01 March 2008 - 10:52 AM

Duke,

I think it's logical to assume that Tippit had gotten out of his car to either 1) talk with a friend, 2) talk with or shoot a co-conspirator, or 3) have a conversation with another policeman (whose patrol car was seen, by a neighbor, in the driveway which was blocked by Tippits's patrol car; see Dixie Dea's post #12 this thread). I can't imagine a policeman getting out of his patrol car to 1) question/arrest any kind of suspect without calling the dispatcher first, or 2) to get out of his patrol car to "shoot the breeze" with a complete stranger. [emphasis added 1:52 AM California time 3/01/08 by Thomas Graves]

Personally, I like George B.'s scenario (presented in post #18 this thread) in which I think he suggests that Tippit was shot by another policeman (or someone posing as a policeman?), and that LHO's identification was planted at the scene of the murder, thereby killing two birds with one stone: 1) framing LHO, and 2) :hotorwot drawing attention away from DP where the real assassins were covering their tracks/escaping.

FWIW,
--Thomas
__________________________________________

Thomas, I have to disagree with your interpretation of George's hypothesis, in which he posits that Tippit was part of the plot, etc., and I don't see where he posited "killing two birds with one stone," although I certainly recall that I have made that suggestion.

Let's just pretend the following:

Officer Tippit was part of the assasination and his job was to get LHO out of town to the Red Bird Airport. For the cover of LHO he took a second uniform so it would look like two cops which was the normal case.

The plan was changed and LHO was given the signal by the police car that honked twice in front of his room. This change of course could have been the plan right from the beginning but was not told to everybody. The signal made LHO nervous so he took his weapon with him when going to the meeting point of plan B the Texas theater. [emphasis added by Thomas Graves]

Tippit was waiting for Oswald but he did'nt show up, so Tippit rushed to the Top Ten Record Shop to make a phone call but could not reach anybody, so he went back to the streets desperatly looking for Oswald.

„Professor Bill Pulte has a possible explanation for Tippit's erratic movements in the final minutes of his life. Hel explained that Tippit's movements are consistent with the actions of a man frantically looking for someone."

Tippit spotted a police car between 404 and 410 East Tenth Street. He pulls back and parks the car. After a short argument he got shoot and Oswalds ID is placed at the murder scene. Now the have a reason to charge LHO with murder of a police officer and he will be arrested. There might be a little chance that Oswald get shoot during the attempt of arresting but there are further plans that bring up Ruby.

Oswald meanwhile a little late due to the traffic problems on his way home, rushes to the Texas theater and forgets to buy a ticket. Because of the shooting in the neighbourhood a man running is always suspicious so he's reportet to the police.

So Tippit's part was never more than being the victim of Oswald[,] kind of the patsy of the patsy.

This scenario is rife with other issues, some of which I'd pointed out, and while I'd typically be wont to point them out, I have neither the time nor inclination to do that at this very moment. But let it be said that there is plenty of evidence to suggest - if not actually prove - that the "killing two birds with one stone" scenario is, at the very least, plausible if not entirely factual. I don't believe Tippit was cognizent of it in any way at all.


_____________________________________

Hi Duke,

Sorry I didn't give you credit for the part marked with :hotorwot , above.

So, two birds were killed by having probable conspirator Tippit killed by someone and having that someone leave LHO's identification at the scene of the murder, thereby: 1) framing LHO, and 2) drawing attention away from Dealy Plaza.

In so many words George B. says that conspirator Tippit was set up to be a victim in order to frame LHO. George's theory that the change in plans could itself have been the plan and some of the "conspirators" (i.e. patsies) were not told about this ahead of time sounds very plausible to me and it's obvious to me that he's referring to both Tippit and LHO. The theory that Tippit was shot by another policeman or someone posing as a policeman is also very plausible, imho.

I never meant to suggest that Tippit was aware that a co-conspirator was going to kill him.


--Thomas
_____________________________________

Edited by Thomas Graves, 01 March 2008 - 02:14 PM.


#133 Duke Lane

Duke Lane

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA
  • Interests:Universally loved and admired for his keen wit, sharp intellect, loathsome egoism, and awe-inspiring self-delusion, Lane studies the JFK assassination from afar, offers few opinions, and generally keeps to himself.

Posted 01 March 2008 - 03:41 PM

Sorry I didn't give you credit for the part marked with :hotorwot , above.

So, two birds were killed by having probable conspirator Tippit killed by someone and having that someone leave LHO's identification at the scene of the murder, thereby: 1) framing LHO, and 2) drawing attention away from Dealy Plaza.

In so many words George B. says that conspirator Tippit was set up to be a victim in order to frame LHO. George's theory that the change in plans could itself have been the plan and some of the "conspirators" (i.e. patsies) were not told about this ahead of time sounds very plausible to me and it's obvious to me that he's referring to both Tippit and LHO. The theory that Tippit was shot by another policeman or someone posing as a policeman is also very plausible, imho.

I never meant to suggest that Tippit was aware that a co-conspirator was going to kill him.

--Thomas

No, I definitely don't see the preparational exchanges going down anything like, "OK, JD, you go over to Oak Cliff when we tell you, and Bob will be along shortly to kill you." "Uh, yeah, sure, Jim. Now what time do you figure I should be there?" "Hey, don't sweat it. Wait till ol' Park's in position - he'll radio it in, then ol' Jack'll send you in, and 15 minutes later, well, you won't feel a thing." "Sure, Jim, you can count on me!" ...

Someone unwitting can hardly be called a "probable conspirator," and there's no evidence to suggest, much less prove, that JD was sent into Oak Cliff to "do" anything but die, no call to "pretend" anything simply for the sake of pretending. Getting LHO "out of town to the Redbird airport" is pure speculation, as is that LHO was walking to Jack Ruby's apartment (why do that when he was going to get a ride?) to grab enough pocket change to spend a lifetime in Mexico.

JD was a "part of the conspiracy" only inasmuch as the conspirators' plans called for killing a cop to get the rest of DPD out of Dealey Plaza, for no other crime could have diverted the Department's attention - exactly as Tippit's shooting did - than killing a cop. The shooting (if not murder) of a second cop in the theater was supposed to be LHO's death sentence, but unfortunately (tho' not for Nick McDonald), it misfired ... while in another cop's grip.

#134 J. Raymond Carroll

J. Raymond Carroll

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, New York
  • Interests:https://www.facebook.com/search/me/friends/photos-of

Posted 01 March 2008 - 05:16 PM

The shooting (if not murder) of a second cop in the theater was supposed to be LHO's death sentence, but unfortunately (tho' not for Nick McDonald), it misfired ... while in another cop's grip.


Did McDonald invent the "misfire" to make himself look like a hero?

That inference could be drawn from the expert testimony of Cortland Cunningham.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Officer McDonald's statement that the primer of one round was dented on misfire: as far as you can tell, could this statement be confirmed?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; we found nothing to indicate that this weapon's firing pin had struck the primer of any of these cartridges.

#135 J. Raymond Carroll

J. Raymond Carroll

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,447 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, New York
  • Interests:https://www.facebook.com/search/me/friends/photos-of

Posted 01 March 2008 - 08:02 PM

While it can't be proven, I've always suspected that ..... even his gun was fixed so as to not fire.


Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I personally have fired this weapon numerous times, as well as Special Agents Robert Frazier and Charles Killion. At no time did we ever attempt to fire this weapon that it misfired. It operated excellently and every time we have tried to fire it, it has fired.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users