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The Paines


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#1 Tim Gratz

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 11:39 AM

Have we (can we?) conclude that the Paines had to be part of the conspiracy due to their role in getting LHO his job at the TSBD?

Is there a consensus on this? I know we have discussed this in a different thread but I wanted to see if we could "cut to the chase" and reach a consensus on this.

Also, is there any other person who necessarily must have been a conspirator? If so, who, and why?

#2 Antti Hynonen

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 01:52 PM

Tim Gratz Posted Today, 10:39 AM
  Have we (can we?) conclude that the Paines had to be part of the conspiracy due to their role in getting LHO his job at the TSBD?

Is there a consensus on this? I know we have discussed this in a different thread but I wanted to see if we could "cut to the chase" and reach a consensus on this.

Also, is there any other person who necessarily must have been a conspirator? If so, who, and why?


Tim, I don't think the Paine's were 100% innocent, however, I don't think their role had to do with the TSBD. As I see it Lee was looking for a job in many places in down-town Dallas, and along the motorcade route. I think details of the conspiracy and the patsy were concocted after the patsy was in place (IMO).

Edited by Antti Hynonen, 11 February 2005 - 01:56 PM.


#3 John Geraghty

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 02:36 PM

I recall reading an article by Vince Palamara about Ruth Paine and how he had a source who was a friend of Ruth Paines. It was apparently well known in the overseas charity organisation which she was involved with that she was a CIA asset as it was frequent to have an inside person in South American and other war torn areas to keep an eye on any sponsored insurrection.

#4 Nic Martin

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 03:05 PM

I don't think Ruth Paine was near as into it as several researches do - I've spent most of my research time lately reading over her testimonies and comments, and she says she was outside talking to her neighbor when her other neighbor came over and they were talking about LHO's difficulty finding work, and this 2nd neighbor said he heard the TSBD had been hiring, so she called up the TSBD and checked with Roy Truly to see if they were hiring, and if she could get LHO the interview.

So, as much has been made of her getting him the job, it doesn't seem a bit sinister to me.

#5 Guest_Don Jeffries_*

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 03:10 PM

I think the Paines, especially Ruth, were involved in setting Oswald up in some way. Both of them are still alive, and should be among the very first witnesses questioned if there is ever a real investigation into the assassination of JFK.

#6 John Simkin

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 04:33 PM

Have we (can we?) conclude that the Paines had to be part of the conspiracy due to their role in getting LHO his job at the TSBD?

Is there a consensus on this?  I know we have discussed this in a different thread but I wanted to see if we could "cut to the chase" and reach a consensus on this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I do not believe that Ruth Paine was a conspirator. However, like Don I feel that she was used to set up Oswald. It is not a coincidence that both Oswald and Paine were members of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). My research on Paine suggests that Paine was a genuine political activist. This was based on her Quaker beliefs. Since the assassination she has continued this political activity. For example, over the last couple of years she has been working for a Nicaraguan relief group in St. Petersburg, Florida.

Hoover of course hated the ACLU. I doubt very much if the ACLU really represented Oswald’s true beliefs. Nor do I believe he was a genuine member of the Socialist Workers Party, Congress of Racial Equality or the Fair Play for Cuba Committee (all organizations hated by Hoover).

It was George De Mohrenschildt who brought the Oswalds into contact with Ruth Paine. I suspect this was all part of the set-up. The original story was to suggest a left-wing conspiracy to kill Kennedy. However, LBJ was not willing to go along with this and insisted on the lone gunman theory.

Therefore, the original story had to be changed. I imagine Paine was offered the same deal as Marina Oswald. They were told that the FBI had evidence that the two women was involved in the conspiracy to kill JFK. However, this would not used if they were willing to support the Oswald as lone gunman theory. By this time Oswald was dead and they could not do anything to help him. Therefore they agreed the deal.

I suppose it is possible that just before Ruth and Marina die they will reveal what happened. However, I suspect they will prefer to go to their death with their secret. After all, it does not reflect too well on them (although their behaviour is fully understandable).

#7 Shanet Clark

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 07:08 PM

The Paines, like Marina and Lee, were under pressure from a hazy counter-espionage force after Lee returned from Minsk with the elite Russian wife, Marina.

George Baron DeMorenschildt played both (or all) sides.

He was a conduit into the White Russian reaction, and all these activities were known to be possibly penetrated by the KGB.

Epstein shows DeMorenschildt as MARINA's principle handler, because of her GRU/KGB family connections...

The Paine's leftist enrollment must be viewed skeptically because of the high degree of infiltration anf infestation-- with corporate ties to Bell Helicpter, Paine was mixed of loyalties.

Certainly John is right that it is more realistic to see veiled and delayed pressure than explicit and early pressure, but the level of government and Soviet co-operation going on inside the PAINE DEMORENSCHILDT OSWALD extended family is unknown, but it is obvious that there were files and covert domestic programs tied to the shadowy force, DEMORENSCHILDT.

#8 Chris Cox

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 09:00 PM

ah, John don't rely on those deathbed confessions as I've mentioned, just a set up for disappointment. Researchers may have to rely on what's published.

"Mrs. Paine's Garage" should be mentioned here. It's a little book a LNer-ish book, but something strange happens in the course of telling Ruth's story. The author admits that Michael may have more to say that he zigzagged around in first place. He saw the backyard photos in LHO apartment and mentioned something was "wierd" about LHO to a co-worker or some such. Perhaps this book is Ruth's last jab at her husband at large, but it is compelling. Neither may know the other in this mess, one is lead to belive.

The Paines were a nouveau couple. Like the DeMorenschildts, not at all "regular" 1950s Americans. That is a clue to their involvement, witting or un-witting. These "outsiders" had the exposure that perhaps made them great "insiders."

From the book you'll see that Ruth was unconventional. She taught Russian during the cold war and wished to go to USSR. What a person to connect the returning Oswalds to. Michael worked in military intel projects--a frustrated inventor. Both had a deep lineage. Ruth travelled from Naushon Island (famous in its own right) to meet the next chapter in her life with Oswald.

Later, she left Michael and travelled by sailboat on the intracoastal with her kids. A Bohemiana to an extent. Not a victim at all but a strong woman while Michael tries to work out his life and trade in counterculture crafts.

The book is a good glimpse at a couple that had only a part in the mission of LHO. It is what they know.

#9 Ron Ecker

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 11:53 PM

LNers like to argue that the way Oswald got a job at the TSBD is further proof of no conspiracy. Oswald wouldn’t have been working there, we are supposed to believe, if Mrs. Randle had not mentioned to Ruth Paine that Oswald might get a job there.

Let’s suppose for a moment that Ruth Paine wanted an excuse to refer Oswald to the TSBD. Someone could have told her, for example, to get Oswald a job at the TSBD, but to make it look like it wasn’t her idea, it was someone else’s and thus purely coincidental to the subsequent turn of events.

All Ruth Paine had to do in such a case was get in a conversation with Mrs. Randle and the others about where Oswald might find work. They gave her a list of places, and the TSBD was bound to be included sooner or later, particularly since Mrs. Randle knew that Wesley Frazier had recently been hired there. (Ruth Paine even put a restriction on which places could be mentioned, as it couldn't be a place that would require Oswald driving to work.) All Ruth Paine had to do was sit there until the TSBD was mentioned, and her mission was accomplished.

It is also worth noting that Ruth Paine in her WC testimony misrepresented what Mrs. Randle actually said:

Mrs. PAINE - And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked.

Mrs. Randle in her WC testimony is emphatic that she did not know if there was a job available at the TSBD or not. It’s almost as if she wants the WC to know that Paine was lying. Here’s the exchange:

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, we didn't say that he might get a job, because I didn't know there was a job open. The reason that we were being helpful, Wesley had just looked for a job, and I had helped him to try to find one. We listed several places that he might go to look for work. . . .
Mr. BALL. And then you also mentioned the Texas Book Depository?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I didn't know there was a job opening over there.
Mr. BALL. But did you mention it?
Mrs. RANDLE. But we said he might try over there. There might be work over there because it was the busy season but I didn't have any previous knowledge that there was any job opening.

Note that Mr. Ball twice asks Mrs. Randle if she mentioned the TSBD, and both times Randle doesn’t answer the question. It’s quite possible that Ruth Paine mentioned it first, e.g. “What about the Texas School Book Depository?” In any case, the argument that Ruth Paine supposedly got the idea of Oswald applying at the TSBD from Mrs. Randle proves nothing at all, as it could have been totally an act of manipulation by Paine, with Paine going so far as to misrepresent under oath what was said.

Ron

#10 Jim Root

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 01:32 AM

Tim

It is my belief that the November 4, 1963 note that Agent Hosty sent to the FBI was read in Helms office within the week....before the route was established. It is also my opinion that Oswald's work location would only provide a conspiracy cover if someone/group already was aware of the Walker incident and that it could be tied to Oswald. While we know that Mrs. Paine was involved in "helping" Oswald get a job at the TSBD it does not prove that she was a part of a conspiracy.

For myself I tend to search for explanations that reduce the number of people involved rather than easily accepting explanations that require expanding the numbers of people potentially involved in a conspiracy. Each additional member of a conspiracy is an additional potential leak and for 40+ years the smoking gun has not been uncovered "beyond a reasonable doubt" (leading me to believe this "club" was rather exclusive).

Jim Root

#11 Tim Gratz

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 05:09 AM

To Jim:

I agree that it is likely the conspirators limited the number of participants to prevent leaks. We all know the intelligence principles of "compartmentialization" and the "need to know".

Your reply goes back to the issue of whether the parade route was brought to go by the TSBD or whether LHO was brought (given a job) on the parade route. A fairly significant question, to be sure. If the parade route was brought to LHO, the obvious implication (which I am sure you accept) is that one of the conspirators was within the government, and placed highly enough to influence the choice of the parade route. You seem to be suggesting Richard Helms. I have several comments. First, what evidence at all do you have that Helms saw a copy of the parade route? Second, what evidence do you have that Helms, directly or indirectly, participated in the selection of the parade route? If his participation was indirect, whom do you believe he used as his agent? Third, re the entire theory that the parade route was brought by LHO's place of employment, what if LHO had accepted employment not even close to the parade route? (Obviously, such jobs were available.) If LHO was being set up as the patsy for a number of months, didn't the conspirators need a way to control his place of employment?

And of course with respect to the possible involvement of Helms, I go back to my argument on a different thread that if LHO was an asset of U.S. intelligence, that tends to exclude from the conspiracy those within the CIA who would have been aware of LHO's links to U.S. intelligence, which presumably would include Helms.

I think it more likely that LHO was deliberately placed in a job that was at least likely to be on the parade route. If so, that suggests some type of involvement by Mrs. Paine.

I agree with Don Jeffries that if there can be yet another investigation, the Paines ought to be the first witnesses closely examined. As we all know, Ruth Paine's testimony also helped to inculpate LHO after his death, which might also be part of the conspiracy.

#12 Mike Perez

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 04:32 PM

I believe the Paines were the CIA handlers for the Oswalds (notice the plurals).
I think both Michael and Ruth were making reports about Lee and Marina's should we say progress. Lee especially was being led down a path for some type of special ops from the moment he got into the Marines. That special ops was finally determined sometime in late October or early November of 63. The Paines were involved but I don't think they really knew that the ultimate and final outcome would be the assassination of the President. I think Ruth was more involved than Michael because she had more contact and was better able to report on the actions of both Marina and Lee. Remember at the time of the assassination Michael and Ruth were separated, as were the Oswalds. I don't remember reading anything about Michael coming to visit Ruth, But it is mentioned everywhere that Lee was coming to visit Marina and the children.

Mike

#13 Jim Root

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 11:43 PM

Tim

While Helms is more than an interesting character I do not make him out to be the "big fish." I continue to believe that the trail leads to Maxwell Taylor. The work by Jefferson Morley proves that information about Oswald was making it to the Office Richard Helms but I do not rule out the possibility that that information would also have made it to the ultimate head of Military Intelligence (the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Taylor). But the Army Intelligence file on Oswald has been destroyed....suspicious in itself.

Chester Victor Clifton, Jr.l, senior military aide to President John F. Kennedy, would be in a position to influence the motorcade. Appointed to this position by Taylor, Clifton was in the motorcade on November 22, 1963. It is also interesting to point out that Clifton's first commanding officier, upon graduation from West Point , was Edwin Walker.

The other piece of the puzzle that I believe is important, whoever planned the route past where Oswald was working would also need to be familiar with and suspect that the attempted assassination of Walker could be attributed to Oswald. I believe this narrows the focus substanially.

Jim Root

#14 Mark Stapleton

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 03:45 AM

Tim

While Helms is more than an interesting character I do not make him out to be the "big fish."  I continue to believe that the trail leads to Maxwell Taylor.  The work by Jefferson Morley proves that information about Oswald was making it to the Office Richard Helms but I do not rule out the possibility that that information would also have made it to the ultimate head of Military Intelligence (the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Taylor).  But the Army Intelligence file on Oswald has been destroyed....suspicious in itself.

Chester Victor Clifton, Jr.l, senior military aide to President John F. Kennedy, would be in a position to influence the motorcade.  Appointed to this position by Taylor, Clifton was in the motorcade on November 22, 1963.  It is also interesting to point out that Clifton's first commanding officier, upon graduation from West Point , was Edwin Walker.

The other piece of the puzzle that I believe is important, whoever planned the route past where Oswald was working would also need to be familiar with and suspect that the attempted assassination of Walker could be attributed to Oswald.  I believe this narrows the focus substanially.

Jim Root

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Jim,

I agree Max Taylor would have been in a great position to organise it all. But I've read elsewhere that he was a personal friend of the Kennedys. Is this not the case? What do you think about the guilt or otherwise of his predecessor, Lyman Lemnitzer?

#15 Pat Speer

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Posted 22 March 2005 - 12:46 PM

I think Oswald set himself up. If not the TSBD he would have found another "room with a view" over the parade route. Some guys are just lucky that way.

As for the Paine's, I suspect Ruth was probably for real, but that Michael has a secret or two. It just seems a little suspicious to me that

1. He had a Minox camera.
2. He moved out just when Marina needed a place to stay, and returned right after the asassination. He paid for Marina's room and board and never complained.
3. He suddenly remembered Oswald showing him the backyard photos thirty years after the fact.
4. He was the one who returned Marina's records to the de Mohrenschildts. When the de Mohrenschildts returned from Haiti they looked through the records and voila, a backyard photograph, dated and everything. Michael Paine spent the evening of the 23rd, the day Stovall etc. found the photographs, at the police station being questioned separate from his family. They may have questioned him about his cameras, so they could establish which one was Lee's to better fake a photo. Or perhaps Paine himself planted the photos--he spent the night with Ruth on the 22nd. Something about his relationship to the photos just isn't right. I still haven't completely figured it out. I mean, would you let a commie who poses with rifles stay in your house every week-end rent free?
5. He regularly discussed politics with Oswald and took him to an ACLU meeting.
6. He admitted moving the blanket which supposedly held Oswald's rifle numerous times, and yet swore he never looked inside. Moreover, he claimed he thought it was camping equipment. How? And why, when he knew from the backyard photos Oswald had a rifle?

SUBPOENA MICHAEL PAINE




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