Ultimate Sacrifice by Thom Hartmann & Lamar Waldron

[John Simkin]

Anyone read the recently published Ultimate Sacrifice by Thom Hartmann and Lamar Waldron?

Apparently they argue that the Kennedys were secretly working with a high Cuban official (he refuses to name him for "national security" reasons) to topple Castro in a coup and then follow up with a U.S. military invasion of Cuba on Dec. 1, 1963. He further claims that the Mafia penetrated this plot and realizing that the government would do anything to keep it secret, took advantage of this veil of secrecy to kill JFK. In an interview with another researcher McNamara has denied such an invasion was in the works. The authors claim that McNamara was not in the loop. Dick Goodwin has commented “it's crazy to think the Kennedys, who were still riding pretty high after the Cuban missile crisis, would take such a huge political risk on the eve of the 1964 presidential season. JFK was too shrewd to flirt with another Bay of Pigs fiasco.”

[Larry Hancock]

John, my understanding is that the book will be on sale on November 18, the day that Lamar is speaking at the Lancer conference. Lamar is scheduled for a presesentation on Friday afternoon and will be on the authors panel again Sunday evening.

It's also my understanding that the book will be on sale at the conference but of course it will also have very broad commercial availability.

-- Larry

[Ron Ecker]

I look forward to reading this book. And I'll take seriously what it says (perhaps) when I see the authors' cited sources. It just sounds a bit much. The description from Amazon.com:

"Ultimate Sacrifice reveals, for the first time, John and Robert Kennedy's plan for a coup in Cuba on December 1, 1963 — a plan that involved a U.S. military invasion. Unique, distinctly different, and far more advanced than any previously disclosed operation, this plan is corroborated by many declassified military and CIA documents that have never been quoted in any book before. It provides the missing piece of the puzzle regarding JFK's murder, and explains why Bobby Kennedy told close associates that the Mafia was behind his brother's assassination.

The Mafia had managed to infiltrate the Kennedys' intended coup. Ultimate Sacrifice describes and documents an attempt they made to kill JFK in a motorcade several days prior to Dallas. This attempt had more than a dozen parallels to Dallas and was kept out of the press at the time by the Kennedys in order to protect the coup plan.

Building on the work of the seven governmental committees that investigated aspects of JFK's assassination, the four million documents that were declassified in the 1990s, and exclusive interviews with many Kennedy insiders, the authors are able to tell the full story of these incidents."

[John Simkin]

John, my understanding is that the book will be on sale on November 18, the day that Lamar is speaking at the Lancer conference. Lamar is scheduled for a presesentation on Friday afternoon and will be on the authors panel again Sunday evening.

What with Joan Mellen talking about Farewell to Justice, it looks like being a lively conference. Any chance of getting Angel Murgado and Gerry Hemming to join Joan Mellen on the stage (only joking).

Building on the work of the seven governmental committees that investigated aspects of JFK's assassination, the four million documents that were declassified in the 1990s, and exclusive interviews with many Kennedy insiders, the authors are able to tell the full story of these incidents."

Another author is also writing about this subject. The Kennedy insiders are telling him a very different story. The fact that Waldron and Hartmann are unwilling to name the Cuban official clearly undermines their theory. I am sure the documents exist but did JFK really mean to go ahead with this plan or was it another attempt to fool the anti-Castro Cuban community?

[Larry Hancock]

Well I had thought about trying to talk Barr and Billy Sol into an arm wrestling match at the authors tables but perhaps this is all getting too confrontational.

Certainly it promises to be a very lively conference and I'm especially pleased that we have so much participation from historians and political scientists because certainly it is a time for professional balance in dealing with all the new information being brought forth. We have several members of a college historiagraphy class attending and it should be most educational for them!

The on stage schedule has been pretty firmly booked and remained solid for some time but of course there's always ample room for dialog during the break outs and outside the confernce room. There are always a number of lively dialogs going on in various seating areas and around the book sales tables. I expect even more of that this year. Some folks just drop by to chat and the last couple of years I've had a chance to at last say hello to Jack White, got to have dinner together last year which was even better.

-- Larry

[Ron Ecker]

Since I won't be able to go to the conference, perhaps someone can ask this question for me. Why would the Mafia deliberately stop a coup in Cuba, aborting their great hope to get their Havana casinos back, by killing JFK, if he was planning to invade Cuba on Dec 1? (He was planning to invade Cuba with exactly what, even the Sec of D reportedly being out of the loop?) Seems to me that the Mafia would wait a couple of weeks till JFK got rid of Castro for them before bumping off JFK. (It's like my niece said when asked the other day why she wants a book about the Mafia for Christmas. "Because," she said, "they're smart.")

[Gerry Hemming]

Since I won't be able to go to the conference, perhaps someone can ask this question for me. Why would the Mafia deliberately stop a coup in Cuba, aborting their great hope to get their Havana casinos back, by killing JFK, if he was planning to invade Cuba on Dec 1? (He was planning to invade Cuba with exactly what, even the Sec of D reportedly being out of the loop?) Seems to me that the Mafia would wait a couple of weeks till JFK got rid of Castro for them before bumping off JFK. (It's like my niece said when asked the other day why she wants a book about the Mafia for Christmas. "Because," she said, "they're smart.")

[/quote

----------------------

Ron, John, et al.

Why was "Whiz Kid Mac" out of the loop ?? Why was Rumsfeld out of the loop with "Able-Danger"s" Special Affairs Staff, which was a D.I.A. operation ??!! The D.I.A. reported to the DCI, not to the SecDef. The DIA will now report to DNI Negroponte long before "Rummy" is even hearing rumors or leaks -- "Stove-Pipes" lads, back to the books, Lads.

And as to the Cosa Nostra [which is the term used after "canary Joe's" testimony during September 1963]; total horsexxxx -- and Why ??!! Because this was not a December '63 BOP, it was: as Manuel Ray briefed, and as Jake urged, a long-term LRRP [OSS Det. #101 style Op] and Ray, Rogelio Cisneros [WAR NAME "EUGENIO", not "Eddy Bayo", or some such crap]; get it right Lads. [and girls !!] It was a 1964 pre-election capture of San Julian, Banes, and Cayo Largo [now a tourist resort] !! You might well recall that the nuke tipped "Lunas" were still ensconced at the Soviet Controlled Banes Naval Base, and Krushchov's orders to remove same were being ignored !!

And Manuel Ray, and the other armed raider groups affiliated with J.U.R.E. were sure as hell not going to grant laissaiz passer to the old Lanskey operators once they were in control in Havana !!

This was why Paulino was dispatched down from "Chi-Town" to chat with us during mid-1963, but his suitcases of $100 bills were rejected -- as were his efforts to have "face-time" with Somoza and "Pepe" Figueres. He then turned to attempts at buying up ALL of Rich Lauchli's thousand of automatic weapons, ammo, explosives, etc. -- but Mike McLaney beat him to the punch and brought Rich down into the LA operations, amongst which was the one on his brother Bill's acreage.

BTW, Victor "Papucho" Espinoza, on the list with psycho Herman Koch Gene, Lauchli, et al. was Mike's trusted and loyal right-hand brother !!

Paulino Sierra did get to Fiorini/Sturgis -- and the Rorke/Sullivan flight was financed, not by the owner of the NYC Stork Club, buddy to "Queen" Hoover, nor Claire Luce or Billings; but by Sierra !! Note that SOF/Watergate patsy Fiorini/Sturgis wasn't on the flight to pick up LHO; but a DGI agent was. Capt. Enrique Molina Rivera was scheduled to be killed by "Bayo" after he was repeatedly caught communicating with Havana, and Miami resident DGI & GRU illegals.

I mistakenly cancelled the "neutering" of Molina Rivera, and he went off gleefully with Loran Hall, Aguilar, et al. -- and thereafter conned Seymour and Howard into joining this refreshed DGI "glee club" !!

It was Molina Rivera whom arranged for the 5 Castro aircraft to slip into Cozumel [without flight plans nor payment of fees to R.A.M.S.A.] 2 days before Rorke, et al. arrived from Merida [after putting LHO on a Lode-Star twin (ex-USN WWII PV-2) owned by, and personally used by one Howard "Gomer" Hughes -- and returned to "Lakefront Airport, NO, LA]. From Cozumel, they (Rorke & Sullivan) were [as prisoners] flown directly to my old base [bAM San Julian], and thence on to the Villa Marista in Habana.

Are their corpses kept frozen like Pete Ray's was -- most likely. [i am very sorry, Sherry Sullivan !!]

Molina was photographed going in and out of DIFAR/HQ "Confidential Section" (Vedado) a few weeks later, just before the JFK hit. Further fotos and Intel was given to us at Camarioca [1965 boatlift] by an aide to the Port Director, Tamayo -- who later died with "Che" in Bolivia.

More came out with ex-Fidel VIPs he "bugged-out" during the 1980 "Mariel Boatlift". Fiorini/Sturgis got to Camarioca too late to intercept these packets of pix & docs -- which might well have compromised him for NOT taking my advice as to Molina Rivera being "Castro G-2" !!

Chairs,

GPH

______________________

[Tim Carroll]

It was Molina Rivera whom arranged for the 5 Castro aircraft to slip into Cozumel [without flight plans nor payment of fees to R.A.M.S.A.] 2 days before Rorke, et al. arrived from Merida [after putting LHO on a Lode-Star twin (ex-USN WWII PV-2) owned by, and personally used by one Howard "Gomer" Hughes -- and returned to "Lakefront Airport, NO, LA]. From Cozumel, they (Rorke & Sullivan) were [as prisoners] flown directly to my old base [bAM San Julian], and thence on to the Villa Marista in Habana.

What was it about the Rorke-Sullivan flight that would be worth such an extensive intervention as Castro sending 5 airplanes to Cozumel?

Where was Oswald on his way from when flown into Merida and what would the Hughes connection be to that?

Tim Carroll

[Gerry Hemming]

It was Molina Rivera whom arranged for the 5 Castro aircraft to slip into Cozumel [without flight plans nor payment of fees to R.A.M.S.A.] 2 days before Rorke, et al. arrived from Merida [after putting LHO on a Lode-Star twin (ex-USN WWII PV-2) owned by, and personally used by one Howard "Gomer" Hughes -- and returned to "Lakefront Airport, NO, LA]. From Cozumel, they (Rorke & Sullivan) were [as prisoners] flown directly to my old base [bAM San Julian], and thence on to the Villa Marista in Habana.

What was it about the Rorke-Sullivan flight that would be worth such an extensive intervention as Castro sending 5 airplanes to Cozumel?

Where was Oswald on his way from when flown into Merida and what would the Hughes connection be to that?

Tim Carroll

------------------------------

I have been asked already as to why the hell I am responding to a Lancer, Wim, Weberman type xxxxx.

I still have the original cables which I stole [$20 mordida] from the little RAMSA radio shack back in the bushes on the east side of the Cozumel airstrip.

5 planes, because the Rorke/Sullivan bird was just the first of a group of airplanes scheduled to follow over the next few days !! More importantly, Rorke was connected to "Queen" Hoover (does that term somehow offend you ??!!). Some months previous, Rorke had claimed affiliation with the D.R.E., and was the reason that we took "Chilo" Borja and Joannides to the Hollywood, FL "convention-CON-to-raise-$-and gain fame" -- and threatened Rorke with exposure of the "Les Violins" fiasco [Feb. 1963] should he persist !!

Howard "gomer" Hughes involved ?? Who the hell knows, the Op with the Lode-Star was set up by Moody.

Others going to Cuba via slipping on board the Cubana de Aviacion bird refueling at Merida -- well one was Saul "Saggy" my wiiddle friend. I could give a rat's ass who the others were.

That would be Cmdte. Manuel "Barba Roja" Pineiro [DSE/DGI] NOT Fidel !! 5 airplanes an extensive operation ??!! GET REAL !! That was done every week for commercial purposes, and was sanctioned by the then Governor of Quintana Roo Province, Yucatan State. You know, Lazaro Cardenas, the ex-Communist President of Mexico during the 1930s/early '40s ??!!

Usually, 2 INRA planes were used. When I ran BAM San Julian Air Base [1960] I regularly flew to Cozumel without any flight plan, and fees were waived if I brought some "Abajo - H. Upmann cigars" from the nearby plantation at San Juan y Martinez -- which is a tourist site now. My last gun-running Op was out of Cozumel [Dec. 1958] with the load destined for Cmdte. Dermidio Escalona's Pinar del Rio ("Alzados") Sierra Occidental guerrillas. The load was retrieved by the guerrilla column lead by 1st Lt. Neil McCaulley (US Army Reserve), and who later wrote the best book on Sandino -- whilst professoring at the U. of Florida [Gainesville]; and is now retired and lives nearby.

During 1958, Howard K. Davis lead the first guerrilla/maritime expedition into Pinar del Rio, landing near Las Martinez on the south coast. Because the fishing village destination was call El Corojo", this was later written up in Cuba as the "El Corojo Expedition". Shortly thereafter, Davy started flying loads into Raul Castros "2nd Front - Frank Pais" which was headquartered at Mayari Arriba [La Sierra Cristal]. Davy usually landed at the "Calabasas" dirt strip, and one time had to leave his "Stagger Wing" Beechcraft there -- and Sanjenis or Jorge Sotus later told him that with Batista B-26s & F-47s scouting around, it was claimed that they were forced to burn his bird. Next time in they showed him a melted recip/engine block, and said that was all that was left. ["Calabasa" is Spanyiddish for Pumpkin]

Had Davy left the Presidential Palace once in a while, and gone to the Ciudad Libertad Airbase in Marrianao, Capt. Paul J. Hughes would have shown him his Beechcraft -- with a brand new Rebel Air Force paint job, parked by the control tower. Diaz Lanz had flown it in, and had Capt. Evans Rosales get it painted. However, Davy was "too" close to "interim" President Judge Manuel Urrutia, and was asked to leave Cuba when "Da Judge" fell out of favor with Fidel.

[Christy fondly remember Marrianao, a "burb" of La Habana]

I've never had the heart to tell Davy about his beloved Beechcraft !! Maybe he should sue -- they sell for $300,000 now ??!!

And you have read the already public technique for using the "Merida Switch" -- which I briefed Krulak, Cotrell, et al. on during Feb./ mar. 1963 -- in preparation for JFK's upcoming trip to San Jose Costa Rica.

One of the demands to be made by JFK of Lopez Mateos was that ALL travelers to Cuba via Mexico would be photographed and fingerprinted at both Mex. D.F. and Merida, because some "Progressives" were also using the "Merida Switch" to bypass being identified at Mexico City.

Maybe you should have spent your girly-men magazine allowance on buyring REAL books and documents !!

I am not going to tutor you on much of what is already on the web and/or has been at College Park for years !!

Where was LHO coming from ?? Well, dipsy-doodle -- Weberman got that 10 years ago -- don't you read his "Nodu-Rhoids ??!! He had been picked up by Rorke & Sullivan at "an undisclosed location" near either N.O. or Beaumont, Tex-Ass !!

Go on back to Wim, why don't you. Why is it these Trolls can't ask a civil question without including libelous accusatory statements -- or are you a Weberman lackey hoping to launch a fishing expedition by libeling somebody ??!!

GPH

______________________

[Tim Carroll]

What was it about the Rorke-Sullivan flight that would be worth such an extensive intervention as Castro sending 5 airplanes to Cozumel?

Where was Oswald on his way from when flown into Merida and what would the Hughes connection be to that?

Tim Carroll

Where was LHO coming from ?? Well, dipsy-doodle -- Weberman got that 10 years ago -- don't you read his "Nodu-Rhoids ??!! He had been picked up by Rorke & Sullivan at "an undisclosed location" near either N.O. or Beaumont, Tex-Ass !! Go on back to Wim, why don't you. Why is it these Trolls can't ask a civil question without including libelous accusatory statements -- or are you a Weberman lackey hoping to launch a fishing expedition by libeling somebody ??!!

That's quite a reaction! Anyone can see that I asked two very civil questions and included no accusatory statements, libelous or otherwise.

According to my limited grasp of Hemmingese, the answers seem to be:

1. The use of 5 planes wasn't "extensive" given the circumstance; and

2. Oswald was flown by Rorke and Sullivan to Merida from "an undisclosed location" near either N.O. or Beaumont, TX, and his flight back to N.O. on Howard Hughes' plane was set up by Moody.

Tim Carroll

Edited November 11, 2005 by Tim Carroll

[Gerry Hemming]

What was it about the Rorke-Sullivan flight that would be worth such an extensive intervention as Castro sending 5 airplanes to Cozumel?

Where was Oswald on his way from when flown into Merida and what would the Hughes connection be to that?

Tim Carroll

Where was LHO coming from ?? Well, dipsy-doodle -- Weberman got that 10 years ago -- don't you read his "Nodu-Rhoids ??!! He had been picked up by Rorke & Sullivan at "an undisclosed location" near either N.O. or Beaumont, Tex-Ass !! Go on back to Wim, why don't you. Why is it these Trolls can't ask a civil question without including libelous accusatory statements -- or are you a Weberman lackey hoping to launch a fishing expedition by libeling somebody ??!!

That's quite a reaction! Anyone can see that I asked two very civil questions and included no accusatory statements, libelous or otherwise.

According to my limited grasp of Hemmingese, the answers appear to be:

1. The use of 5 planes wasn't "extensive" given the circumstance; and

2. Oswald was flown by Rorke and Sullivan to Merida from "an undisclosed location" near either N.O. or Beaumont, TX, and was flown back to N.O. by Moody.

Tim Carroll

------------------------------------

"CIVIL QUESTION" MY ASS !!

Why would Angelo be treated as a V.I.P. by Castro and his generals? Why would he be reinstated as a Citizen of the Republic of Cuba? Is it some kind of twisted Hemingwayesque sportmanship, the love and mutual respect for one's foe? Or is there some actual, more sinister relationship underlying the exile community's repudiation of Angelo Murgado?

Tim Carroll

------------------------------------

Why would Angelo be treated......reinstated citizenship........twisted Hemingwayesque......sinister relationship...repudiation...[LHO] flown back by Moody...!!

Amaury is not going to respond to a slur which anybody familiar with the "Queen's English" can interpret as:

Angelo must be a "Fidelista" -- and therefore he is being rewarded for some dark duties which he must have performed for Fidel, maybe even while at RFK's side ??!! Sounds like what a coward-ass Batistiano might mumble tonight !! Or am I the one who has got pissed off because some tree-hugging sissy dared to challenge what the hell an operator has stated ??!!

WWII Marines flying together -- back to Mount Suribachi with veterans of the Imperial Japanese Marines and Army -- to mourn and celebrate the lives of Warriors -- NOT enemies -- Warriors. But how the hell would one expect that a quasi-draft dodging, anti-military sillyvillian pogue, would EVER grasp such a concept ?!.

Warriors returning to Vietnam, walking together with former enemy soldiers -- WARRIORS -- talking about what it was like during specific battles -- having since discovered that they had faced one another -- right there -- in brutal, vicious, and terrifying combat. NOT discussed or even hinted at: the shooting of enemy wounded -- using the night cries of dying boys to suck warriors into a trap !!

But you wouldn't know anything about that.

Which of the Batista thugs has passed onto to your "informant" [if it wasn't you in Miami recently...and I really doubt you have the stones to go there and open your pie-hole] these gems of information ??!!

I expect that one of the non-DGI Batistianos would thuggishly claim that the "Community" has "repudiated" Angelo. Sure thing, and I hope that the Batista loving cowards are claiming this, because it will automatcally serve to enhance Murgado's prestige amongst the REAL Miami Cubans.

Wipe the mascara away and read what I wrote -- Moody supplied the aircraft.....which doesn't prove that he even knew where it was going, nor who might be onboard. In fact, these aircraft are kept by an F.B.O. and leased or rented to qualified pilots who have bona fides, and give a reasonable itinerary, how many days, how many hours [if the bird has no Hobbs Meter], departure, routes, and destinations.

The DEA & FAA published a finding years ago that over 4,000 pilots had died [of various causes, usually by crashes] while attempting to smuggle dope into the U.S. -- between 1970 and 1990. I knew a few dozen of them, and in some cases was paid by family of doper associates to do search & rescues all over the Bahamas, Puerto Rico, Jamaica, DomRep, etc., etc.! And in rare cases, the doper pilots had a "front-man" pilot -- paid to either "position" the bird at a jump-off strip in the Caribbean; or at an airport in the northern states. The innocent owner or F.B.O. never suspects that his bird would be going south. And in fact, many insurance contracts required that: [especially w/ the "fave" Cessna 210 "Centurion"] the flight would never go near the southern states !!

Figured out what an "F.B.O." is yet ??!! Fixed Based Operator, licensed by the FAA to hangar, repair, maintain, lease/rent aircraft owned by other parties. Sometimes they use "lease-backs" -- but the use of an FBO limits the time an expensive bird just sits in a hangar -- NOT paying for itself !!

Moody's son monitors this Forum. Would you like to accuse he or his father, of some sinister scheme involving either framing LHO or murdering JFK -- or both??!!

Why would Artime accept Batistianos "who hated him" into the ranks of 2nd Naval Guerrilla. First, because some CIA straight-leg/REMF/coward-ass pogue ordered it. And I wouldn't be at all shocked that the orders originated with a mole missed by JJA. NOT that the REMF was a mole, because the moles always dupe and use the coward-ass REMFs, and without even kissing them when they are done -- not even a "reach-around" !!

Artime was a weird Catholic dude, who like weenie-wagging "fairy" Ferrie, always wanted to be a Catholic Priest. Maybe not even a pedaphile priest ??!! He was very forgiving, just like the REMFs at JM/WAVE who allowed that operation to be totally penetrated by moles -- most of whom turned out to be Batistianos !!

Artime forgave those Batistianos who coward-ass surrendered to the enemy without firing one shot. Fidel's Milicianos laughed their asses off for months after the BOP, retelling the stories of Batistiano (mercenary worms -- gusanos mercenarios) screaming and crying: "don't shoot...don't shoot...we surrender...smell my gun...I never fired it..!!"

["No tires....no tires...halto el fuego...nos rendimos...huele my "hierro"...huele mi fusil..yo no he tirado ni una bala...!!]

Out of respect for the dead and the surviving heroes, like the Sherman Tanker ("The Egg"), and hundreds of others -- they opted to spare the widows, children, extended families, and the honorable name of the Brigade -- by refusing to disclose anything untoward.

Even De Torres was suspected of having been turned, but the CIA explained that he had obviously fooled the DGI with some "dangling". De Torres' clique, well catch the next Lineas Aereas De Chile down to Santiago de Chile. Hook a ride about 76 miles south to the "NAZI/Kraut" compounds where the ODESSA folks retire [and drink Bock Beer and fine wines] -- and ask him youself. BTW, don't forget GEICO !!

I do believe that a dominatrix like Ninoschka would claim title to that "clique" -- not Roberto !!

Back in 1975 I paid a now well know DGI asset for photos, which had been taken all over both the Monkey Point and El Tortuguero bases, including clear shots of ALL of the leadership, and the CIA and Pentagon pogues who touristed on by, enroute to the whorehouses in San Jose'.

124 photos, and just cost me a $100 bill. Donated them to Bob Brown during a visit to the SOF office on Arapahoe in Boulder -- just in case he ever did HIS long awaited CIA "expose'". Sometimes I think that he has given that up, and I might as well ask for the spy pics backs.

Since few former Fidel [or any anti-Batista Rebels] were ever employed by JM/WAVE, its easy to guess that the majority of moles were Batistianos. At least the ones who later got on CMQ/TV in Havana and said so !!

You might be near my brother's office in Diamond Bar -- drop me a line, and maybe I can convince him to get your mind right !!

GPH

______________________

[Thomas H. Purvis]

What was it about the Rorke-Sullivan flight that would be worth such an extensive intervention as Castro sending 5 airplanes to Cozumel?

Where was Oswald on his way from when flown into Merida and what would the Hughes connection be to that?

Tim Carroll

Where was LHO coming from ?? Well, dipsy-doodle -- Weberman got that 10 years ago -- don't you read his "Nodu-Rhoids ??!! He had been picked up by Rorke & Sullivan at "an undisclosed location" near either N.O. or Beaumont, Tex-Ass !! Go on back to Wim, why don't you. Why is it these Trolls can't ask a civil question without including libelous accusatory statements -- or are you a Weberman lackey hoping to launch a fishing expedition by libeling somebody ??!!

That's quite a reaction! Anyone can see that I asked two very civil questions and included no accusatory statements, libelous or otherwise.

According to my limited grasp of Hemmingese, the answers appear to be:

1. The use of 5 planes wasn't "extensive" given the circumstance; and

2. Oswald was flown by Rorke and Sullivan to Merida from "an undisclosed location" near either N.O. or Beaumont, TX, and was flown back to N.O. by Moody.

Tim Carroll

------------------------------------

"CIVIL QUESTION" MY ASS !!

Why would Angelo be treated as a V.I.P. by Castro and his generals? Why would he be reinstated as a Citizen of the Republic of Cuba? Is it some kind of twisted Hemingwayesque sportmanship, the love and mutual respect for one's foe? Or is there some actual, more sinister relationship underlying the exile community's repudiation of Angelo Murgado?

Tim Carroll

------------------------------------

Why would Angelo be treated......reinstated citizenship........twisted Hemingwayesque......sinister relationship...repudiation...[LHO] flown back by Moody...!!

Amaury is not going to respond to a slur which anybody familiar with the "Queen's English" can interpret as:

Angelo must be a "Fidelista" -- and therefore he is being rewarded for some dark duties which he must have performed for Fidel, maybe even while at RFK's side ??!! Sounds like what a coward-ass Batistiano might mumble tonight !! Or am I the one who has got pissed off because some tree-hugging sissy dared to challenge what the hell an operator has stated ??!!

WWII Marines flying together -- back to Mount Suribachi with veterans of the Imperial Japanese Marines and Army -- to mourn and celebrate the lives of Warriors -- NOT enemies -- Warriors. But how the hell would one expect that a quasi-draft dodging, anti-military sillyvillian pogue, would EVER grasp such a concept ?!.

Warriors returning to Vietnam, walking together with former enemy soldiers -- WARRIORS -- talking about what it was like during specific battles -- having since discovered that they had faced one another -- right there -- in brutal, vicious, and terrifying combat. NOT discussed or even hinted at: the shooting of enemy wounded -- using the night cries of dying boys to suck warriors into a trap !!

But you wouldn't know anything about that.

Which of the Batista thugs has passed onto to your "informant" [if it wasn't you in Miami recently...and I really doubt you have the stones to go there and open your pie-hole] these gems of information ??!!

I expect that one of the non-DGI Batistianos would thuggishly claim that the "Community" has "repudiated" Angelo. Sure thing, and I hope that the Batista loving cowards are claiming this, because it will automatcally serve to enhance Murgado's prestige amongst the REAL Miami Cubans.

Wipe the mascara away and read what I wrote -- Moody supplied the aircraft.....which doesn't prove that he even knew where it was going, nor who might be onboard. In fact, these aircraft are kept by an F.B.O. and leased or rented to qualified pilots who have bona fides, and give a reasonable itinerary, how many days, how many hours [if the bird has no Hobbs Meter], departure, routes, and destinations.

The DEA & FAA published a finding years ago that over 4,000 pilots had died [of various causes, usually by crashes] while attempting to smuggle dope into the U.S. -- between 1970 and 1990. I knew a few dozen of them, and in some cases was paid by family of doper associates to do search & rescues all over the Bahamas, Puerto Rico, Jamaica, DomRep, etc., etc.! And in rare cases, the doper pilots had a "front-man" pilot -- paid to either "position" the bird at a jump-off strip in the Caribbean; or at an airport in the northern states. The innocent owner or F.B.O. never suspects that his bird would be going south. And in fact, many insurance contracts required that: [especially w/ the "fave" Cessna 210 "Centurion"] the flight would never go near the southern states !!

Figured out what an "F.B.O." is yet ??!! Fixed Based Operator, licensed by the FAA to hangar, repair, maintain, lease/rent aircraft owned by other parties. Sometimes they use "lease-backs" -- but the use of an FBO limits the time an expensive bird just sits in a hangar -- NOT paying for itself !!

Moody's son monitors this Forum. Would you like to accuse he or his father, of some sinister scheme involving either framing LHO or murdering JFK -- or both??!!

Why would Artime accept Batistianos "who hated him" into the ranks of 2nd Naval Guerrilla. First, because some CIA straight-leg/REMF/coward-ass pogue ordered it. And I wouldn't be at all shocked that the orders originated with a mole missed by JJA. NOT that the REMF was a mole, because the moles always dupe and use the coward-ass REMFs, and without even kissing them when they are done -- not even a "reach-around" !!

Artime was a weird Catholic dude, who like weenie-wagging "fairy" Ferrie, always wanted to be a Catholic Priest. Maybe not even a pedaphile priest ??!! He was very forgiving, just like the REMFs at JM/WAVE who allowed that operation to be totally penetrated by moles -- most of whom turned out to be Batistianos !!

Artime forgave those Batistianos who coward-ass surrendered to the enemy without firing one shot. Fidel's Milicianos laughed their asses off for months after the BOP, retelling the stories of Batistiano (mercenary worms -- gusanos mercenarios) screaming and crying: "don't shoot...don't shoot...we surrender...smell my gun...I never fired it..!!"

["No tires....no tires...halto el fuego...nos rendimos...huele my "hierro"...huele mi fusil..yo no he tirado ni una bala...!!]

Out of respect for the dead and the surviving heroes, like the Sherman Tanker ("The Egg"), and hundreds of others -- they opted to spare the widows, children, extended families, and the honorable name of the Brigade -- by refusing to disclose anything untoward.

Even De Torres was suspected of having been turned, but the CIA explained that he had obviously fooled the DGI with some "dangling". De Torres' clique, well catch the next Lineas Aereas De Chile down to Santiago de Chile. Hook a ride about 76 miles south to the "NAZI/Kraut" compounds where the ODESSA folks retire [and drink Bock Beer and fine wines] -- and ask him youself. BTW, don't forget GEICO !!

I do believe that a dominatrix like Ninoschka would claim title to that "clique" -- not Roberto !!

Back in 1975 I paid a now well know DGI asset for photos, which had been taken all over both the Monkey Point and El Tortuguero bases, including clear shots of ALL of the leadership, and the CIA and Pentagon pogues who touristed on by, enroute to the whorehouses in San Jose'.

124 photos, and just cost me a $100 bill. Donated them to Bob Brown during a visit to the SOF office on Arapahoe in Boulder -- just in case he ever did HIS long awaited CIA "expose'". Sometimes I think that he has given that up, and I might as well ask for the spy pics backs.

Since few former Fidel [or any anti-Batista Rebels] were ever employed by JM/WAVE, its easy to guess that the majority of moles were Batistianos. At least the ones who later got on CMQ/TV in Havana and said so !!

You might be near my brother's office in Diamond Bar -- drop me a line, and maybe I can convince him to get your mind right !!

GPH

______________________

Gerry;

You bring forth a point which appears to have escaped many.

Those familiar with the invasion are fully aware of how Fidel's forces constantly referred to many of the 2506 members as "worms"/aka "gusanos".

What many have either forgotten, or else were never aware of is the fact that LHO utilized the exact same term in one of his letters to the FPCC, when referring to his NO encounter.

Therefore, one should question exactly who it would be that was giving LHO his "spanish" language lessons in which a form of tree worm had become synonomous with the name applied to the 2506 members by Castro.

Tom

[Tim Carroll]

Why would Angelo be treated......reinstated citizenship........twisted Hemingwayesque......sinister relationship...repudiation...[LHO] flown back by Moody...!! Amaury is not going to respond to a slur which anybody familiar with the "Queen's English" can interpret as: Angelo must be a "Fidelista" -- and therefore he is being rewarded for some dark duties which he must have performed for Fidel, maybe even while at RFK's side ??!! ... Which of the Batista thugs has passed onto to your "informant" [if it wasn't you in Miami recently...and I really doubt you have the stones to go there and open your pie-hole] these gems of information ??!!

I didn't mean anything all that negative by the use of the term Hemingwayesque; I simply find the concept of a warrior's respectfulness for a foe to be extremely rare in matters of international relations. I love Hemingway, personally.

Wipe the mascara away and read what I wrote -- Moody supplied the aircraft.....which doesn't prove that he even knew where it was going, nor who might be onboard.... Moody's son monitors this Forum. Would you like to accuse he or his father, of some sinister scheme involving either framing LHO or murdering JFK -- or both??!!

Trying to be as precise as possible, I went back and edited my post almost an hour before Gerry responded. The screen does need constant refreshing to be current. But in this case I had already corrected my wording to read that Oswald's "flight back to N.O. on Howard Hughes' plane was set up by Moody."

You might be near my brother's office in Diamond Bar -- drop me a line, and maybe I can convince him to get your mind right !!

That's a very kind offer, but Diamond Bar is near Chino, a prison town in Southern California. I live in Chico, a little college town north of Sacramento.

Tim Carroll

[Gerry Hemming]

Why would Angelo be treated......reinstated citizenship........twisted Hemingwayesque......sinister relationship...repudiation...[LHO] flown back by Moody...!! Amaury is not going to respond to a slur which anybody familiar with the "Queen's English" can interpret as: Angelo must be a "Fidelista" -- and therefore he is being rewarded for some dark duties which he must have performed for Fidel, maybe even while at RFK's side ??!! ... Which of the Batista thugs has passed onto to your "informant" [if it wasn't you in Miami recently...and I really doubt you have the stones to go there and open your pie-hole] these gems of information ??!!

I didn't mean anything all that negative by the use of the term Hemingwayesque; I simply find the concept of a warrior's respectfulness for a foe to be extremely rare in matters of international relations. I love Hemingway, personally.

Wipe the mascara away and read what I wrote -- Moody supplied the aircraft.....which doesn't prove that he even knew where it was going, nor who might be onboard.... Moody's son monitors this Forum. Would you like to accuse he or his father, of some sinister scheme involving either framing LHO or murdering JFK -- or both??!!

Trying to be as precise as possible, I went back and edited my post almost an hour before Gerry responded. The screen does need constant refreshing to be current. But in this case I had already corrected my wording to read that Oswald's "flight back to N.O. on Howard Hughes' plane was set up by Moody."

You might be near my brother's office in Diamond Bar -- drop me a line, and maybe I can convince him to get your mind right !!

That's a very kind offer, but Diamond Bar is near Chino, a prison town in Southern California. I live in Chico, a little college town north of Sacramento.

Tim Carroll

------------------------------

Never spent much time in northern CA., save for USMC winter training at "Pickle Meadows" just west of Bishop. A favorite place was Lone Pine, and when very young always passed through there after buying Silver Dollars at the old cow Town Carson City - Quaint Capitol.

Chino is an air show town for me. I flew my warbird there a one time, and also did some sky diving there.

De Torres set up a lot of hits, and the problem was that they mostly favored Fidel's people. He approached me to take out Torriente for $25K, but I said that domestic work on noncombatants wasn't my line -- and moreover, I questioned exactly what was, and who had, the beef against this guy ??

He did NOT call Sylvia ever, and Angelo never hinted at same. Mellen alleges that the call was made behind Murgado's back. Who is the source. Not one of the compartmented guys & gals on the Odio matter have ever talked to anybody, save their "cutouts" to RFK's teams. These folks refused to discuss these matters with anybody else but me [and on a limited basis]. They didn't even want to speak with others they knew or suspected to be amongst the compartmented elements. And they dogmatically and absolutely refused to talk to talk to any reporter, writer -- even if the party was from the CIA/I.G.s office, and especially not with any CIA elements !!

So where does this "Bernie called back to Sylvia" really come from ??!!

The inside scoop of Sylvia, et al. and especially any relationship with a young priest -- can't be clearly answered, not by her or the others. And moreover, she wouldn't be interested in finding out either !! Even when people believe that they are participating in something patriotic and noble -- when the final results are kept secret, most non-operators feel used -- and/or betrayed. They have a hard time grasping that it is safer for all concerned -- NOT to know intricate details. However, they sure as hell feel that it is not normal when when the "Mushroom" syndrome arrives.

De Torres taking on a JFK type task, not likely -- even if it was a logistics, commo, or coordinator tasking, he likes living too well -- and he would avoid an Op which either might go sour, or as happens in the drug trade, you expect to be paid in Silver [Plata] but in the end you are paid in Plomo [lead] !!

When an asset doesn't have a clue as to what is really going on, later on and down the road, they lose interest in finding out !! Discovering that you have been "used" is a bitter experience.

[Twyman shed tears when he got that kind of feeling about me and the teams -- while I thought he was trying to say: "...welcome home soldier...you've earned it" -- but that just wasn't the case at all !!]]

Mellen wouldn't take NO for an answer, and just couldn't [or wouldn't] comprehend that most of these folks have no interest in rehashing the unknown/uncertain past. This is primarily due to a fear that: they will be linked to something bad, or worse, discover that they had been used like a goat. And they sure as hell don't want those close to them to discover their past [good or bad]. It causes rifts, jealousies, and recriminations within the extended family -- especially when there exist distinct opposing beliefs.

Angelo is of the same mindset as the rest, and if I hadn't believed that it was time to set history straight, and give some overdue credit -- I would have never pounded him to open up just a little bit. Only on two occasions has he ever done so. Now look at what the response has been. A bunch of "Bookies"; who have never been there nor done that. "Talking the Talk, without ever having even been close to The Walk !!"

Don't bother asking a veteran grunt; they don't talk "outside of class" -- and operators -- If you ever find a real one, he/she won't be a conversant one.

That is just the way it is -- I learned that at a very young age, and have since instilled much of it in my kids.

Most of what is in print, including what is at NARA is "Legend" and "backstop" files !! CYA flows through the blood of the Intel Community -- when it clots, we get 9/11s !!

'Nuff said,

GPH

__________________________

[Don Bohning]

Anyone read the recently published Ultimate Sacrifice by Thom Hartmann and Lamar Waldron?

Apparently they argue that the Kennedys were secretly working with a high Cuban official (he refuses to name him for "national security" reasons) to topple Castro in a coup and then follow up with a U.S. military invasion of Cuba on Dec. 1, 1963. He further claims that the Mafia penetrated this plot and realizing that the government would do anything to keep it secret, took advantage of this veil of secrecy to kill JFK. In an interview with another researcher McNamara has denied such an invasion was in the works. The authors claim that McNamara was not in the loop. Dick Goodwin has commented “it's crazy to think the Kennedys, who were still riding pretty high after the Cuban missile crisis, would take such a huge political risk on the eve of the 1964 presidential season. JFK was too shrewd to flirt with another Bay of Pigs fiasco.”

It is quite obvious to me that the person he refers to is Rolando Cubela, with whom Nestor Sanchez was meeting in Paris on Nov. 22, 1963, to give him a poison pen as part of a coup plot against Castro. I rather doubt the rest of the thesis that the Mafia penetrated the plot and took advantage of this veil of secrecy to kill JFK. That sounds like a real stretch to me.

I have a bit of a problem with those people who think the Kennedys were planning another invasion: At the same time I have no doubt they were hoping to provoke an uprising that would create the conditions for an invasion under Mongoose, or the subsequent covert program - and particularly the Artime autonomous group which operating from Costa Rica and Nicaragua. [Despite what some accounts say was code-named Second Naval Guerrilla, both Rafael Quintero, Artime's deputy, and Sam Halpern, executive assistant to Desmond Fitzgerald, the head of the Cuba task force at the time, both told me they never heard of.]

As I recall, Gus Russo's book, Live by The Sword, also claims - as I recall without going back to look for it - that Kennedy was planning another invasion, coming to that conclusion by selectively citing from a declassified document by Robert McNamara.