The mysterious Red Thunderbird at Tippit Shooting Scene

[Robert Howard]

For those of us who have never accepted the Oswald shot Tippit scenario, you might find this interesting.

from maryferrell.org

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...wRec.do?id=9671

"Record: VAGANOV, IGOR VLADIMIRS; "TURK"; JOHN NICHOLSON; KURT KULLAWAY; VINCE CARSON; IGOR BAGANOV

Sources: CD 14, p. 10; CD 105, p. 142; CD 320, SS 745, p. 1 (12/23/63); Esquire Magazine, August 1967; FBI 124-10047-10374; Forgive My Grief II, Jones, p. 123

Mary's

Comments: DOB: 1939/1940 (?) POB: Latvia. 1940-45 lived in Germany. 1948/1949 came to USA. Spoke 4 languages. Employed by General Electric Credit Corp. branch outside Philadelphia. Boss was Joe Hart. Asked GE for transfer to Dallas in October 1963. Wife: Martha. "Married" Anne Dulin Nov. 1963 in South Carolina (?) en route to Dallas with 2-way radio, .38 pistol and rifle in red Thunderbird with white top. Benevides saw red Ford at scene of Tippit slaying. Anne Dulin's stepfather, Stan Cukowski, Village Green, PA HU 5-6321, called Conroe, TX juvenile officer that Vaganov, 25, and stepdaughter headed for Texas in GE auto where Vaganov claimed he had urgent business for next week. Anne's sister, Mrs. Jean Anthis, Conroe, TX, came to Dallas Nov 13-19 to get Anne because Vaganovs had quarrelled but they did not separate. 11/20/63 Vaganov got job at Texas Consumer Finance, 1310 Commerce for 1-1/2 days (Carousel Club is upstairs at 1312-1/2 Commerce)."

If there is anything to this, I would suspect that it also involves the use of Carl Mathers license plates, and maybe more. I dont have the link but to see more on the Mather connection see House Select Committee Assassinations document - 'The Wise Allegation' referencing Wes Wise, who later became the mayor of Dallas, who was a key figure in turning up the Mather story to begin with

Edited February 8, 2006 by Robert Howard

[William Kelly]

For those of us who have never accepted the Oswald shot Tippit scenario, you might find this interesting.

from maryferrell.org

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...wRec.do?id=9671

"Record: VAGANOV, IGOR VLADIMIRS; "TURK"; JOHN NICHOLSON; KURT KULLAWAY; VINCE CARSON; IGOR BAGANOV

Sources: CD 14, p. 10; CD 105, p. 142; CD 320, SS 745, p. 1 (12/23/63); Esquire Magazine, August 1967; FBI 124-10047-10374; Forgive My Grief II, Jones, p. 123

Mary's

Comments: DOB: 1939/1940 (?) POB: Latvia. 1940-45 lived in Germany. 1948/1949 came to USA. Spoke 4 languages. Employed by General Electric Credit Corp. branch outside Philadelphia. Boss was Joe Hart. Asked GE for transfer to Dallas in October 1963. Wife: Martha. "Married" Anne Dulin Nov. 1963 in South Carolina (?) en route to Dallas with 2-way radio, .38 pistol and rifle in red Thunderbird with white top. Benevides saw red Ford at scene of Tippit slaying. Anne Dulin's stepfather, Stan Cukowski, Village Green, PA HU 5-6321, called Conroe, TX juvenile officer that Vaganov, 25, and stepdaughter headed for Texas in GE auto where Vaganov claimed he had urgent business for next week. Anne's sister, Mrs. Jean Anthis, Conroe, TX, came to Dallas Nov 13-19 to get Anne because Vaganovs had quarrelled but they did not separate. 11/20/63 Vaganov got job at Texas Consumer Finance, 1310 Commerce for 1-1/2 days (Carousel Club is upstairs at 1312-1/2 Commerce)."

If there is anything to this, I would suspect that it also involves the use of Carl Mathers license plates, and maybe more. I dont have the link but to see more on the Mather connection see House Select Committee Assassinations document - 'The Wise Allegation' referencing Wes Wise, who later became the mayor of Dallas, who was a key figure in turning up the Mather story to begin with

Robert,

I think Igor Vaganov is the subject of an extensive article in Esquire Mag. and another thread on this forum.

In Jan. 1969, Tx Con Finance merged with or became Contran Corporation (2,000 shareholders), with corporate offices at the Fort Worth Club Building, and included officers: G. E. Engleman (Chrmn), H.C. Simmons, (Pres.), W.C. Jay, R. D. Maddox, J.S. Brunson, G.E. Engleman, W.E. GRACE, W.C. Jay, J. Kemmerer, R.D. Maddox, G. R. Simmons, Hl.C. Simmons, S. Stephens, H. Stuth, H.C. White.

[From A Money Tree Grows In Texas By Jas. Walker Davis (Echo House Press) ]

Another red ford in Oak Cliff, I believe, was driven by the guy who told the HSCA about the execution shot, who worked at Baylor Med. as a photographer.

I don't know where you get Carl Mather's plates, as his plates were firmly attached to his two tone 1957 Plymouth, which was positively IDd in Oak Cliff at the time, as reported in the HSCA Wise Allegation, which leads to Collins Radio Company, where the Plymouth should have been parked while Mather was at work.

From the same source:

Collins Radio Compnay (CRI), 1200 N. Alma Rd., Richardson Texas, Officers: A.A. Collins (Pres.), D. H. Foster, R. M. Mathews; Directors: L.M. Craft, J.G. Flynn, Jr., D.H. Foster, A. H. Gordon, T. L. Martin, Jr., J.D. Dyquist, F/.F/ Robinson, W.W. Roodhouse, J.M. Whalen, E. A. Williams.

The Wise Allegation and Carl Mather deserve a separate thread.

BK

bkjfk3@yahoo.com

[Robert Howard]

I don't know where you get Carl Mather's plates, as his plates were firmly attached to his two tone 1957 Plymouth, which was positively IDd in Oak Cliff at the time, as reported in the HSCA Wise Allegation, which leads to Collins Radio Company, where the Plymouth should have been parked while Mather was at work.

I think a more accurate assessment of the situation we are discussing would be who is lying.

The Wise Allegation centered on information submitted by a man named Pate, who was TF White's boss who told KRLD newsman Wes Wise that his mechanic T.F. White saw a 'Red 57 Plymouth 4 door with license plate 'PP 4537' in the parking lot of an El Chico Restaurant (which though no longer in existence was only about one-third to one-half mile away from the Texas Theater, I watched movies in the Texas Theater as a kid and grew up in Oak Cliff) White insisted that the man sitting behind the wheel of the car looked like Lee Harvey Oswald; the man sat in the car for a short while and then 'left at a high rate of speed going west on Davis Street. White provided this information to the FBI. The information you referenced Bill are the Mather's denials.

Wes Wise was involved in this story as a newsman at the time and had dinner with the Mather's. He described Carl as 'too nervous too eat.'

Also, the Mather's and the Tippit's were supposedly friends (High Treason page 276-277) to the point that the family ostensibly 'went by the Tippit home to offer their condolences.'

What is beyond dispute is that someone is not providing factual information. Either White fabricated the number, or the Mather's were lying, the only other possibility is that someone took Mather's license plates that day, used them on another car (that T.F. White witnessed) and then returned them, which I would think is doubtful.

Edited February 8, 2006 by Robert Howard

[Royce Bierma]

I don't know where you get Carl Mather's plates, as his plates were firmly attached to his two tone 1957 Plymouth, which was positively IDd in Oak Cliff at the time, as reported in the HSCA Wise Allegation, which leads to Collins Radio Company, where the Plymouth should have been parked while Mather was at work.

I think a more accurate assessment of the situation we are discussing would be who is lying.

The Wise Allegation centered on information submitted by a man named Pate, who was TF White's boss who told KRLD newsman Wes Wise that his mechanic T.F. White saw a 'Red 57 Plymouth 4 door with license plate 'PP 4537' in the parking lot of an El Chico Restaurant (which though no longer in existence was only about one-third to one-half mile away from the Texas Theater, I watched movies in the Texas Theater as a kid and grew up in Oak Cliff) White insisted that the man sitting behind the wheel of the car looked like Lee Harvey Oswald; the man sat in the car for a short while and then 'left at a high rate of speed going west on Davis Street. White provided this information to the FBI. The information you referenced Bill are the Mather's denials.

Wes Wise was involved in this story as a newsman at the time and had dinner with the Mather's. He described Carl as 'too nervous too eat.'

Also, the Mather's and the Tippit's were supposedly friends (High Treason page 276-277) to the point that the family ostensibly 'went by the Tippit home to offer their condolences.'

What is beyond dispute is that someone is not providing factual information. Either White fabricated the number, or the Mather's were lying, the only other possibility is that someone took Mather's license plates that day, used them on another car (that T.F. White witnessed) and then returned them, which I would think is doubtful.

Robert, as I recall, the plates were traced to Mather, who owned a BLUE 57 four-door. So the only possibility is that someone took Mather's plates off while he was at work, or Mather loaned his plates for the day to the other car. In any case, when Wise visited the Mathers, the wife was calm, but Mather was extremely nervous.

Roy Bierma

[Robert Howard]

Thanks Roy. I got confused by the Red 'Thunderbird' and the Red 'Ford.'

But since Bill mentions Dresser Industries. Has anyone seen the letter dated October 30, 1963 To Neil Mallon of Dresser Industries from Allen Dulles?

The text is below

October 30, 1963

MR. H.N. Mallon

Dresser Industries, Inc.

Republic National Bank Buiding

Dallas, Texas

Dear Neil:

I want to thank you for a delightful evening spent at

your house and the opportunity that I had to get to know your charming bride.

I hope that Clover and I will have an opportunity to entertain you both

here in Washington. Please let us know if you plan to be here.

Sincerely,

Allen W. Dulles

awd:mk

1 - Texas file

1 - chr

As an aside, which I am sure you know, according to the February 26, 1967 edition of the Houston Chronicle in the article

"Secret Use of Public Money: CIA and Foundations," there is a section which reads "The Republic National Bank of Dallas was trustee for another conduit."

Material cited is from 'Oswald's Closest Friend' by Bruce Campbell Adamson.

The Dulles-Mallon letter was an actual copy.

[William Kelly]

I don't know where you get Carl Mather's plates, as his plates were firmly attached to his two tone 1957 Plymouth, which was positively IDd in Oak Cliff at the time, as reported in the HSCA Wise Allegation, which leads to Collins Radio Company, where the Plymouth should have been parked while Mather was at work.

Robert, Before you go off accusing anybody of lying, step back and look what happened. I reviewed this very carefully, rode around Dallas and Oak Cliff with Wes Wise, interviewed him on tape and reviewed the records at the NARA on Mather. Like I said, this deserves a separate thread, but here goes on what you say so far:

I think a more accurate assessment of the situation we are discussing would be who is lying.

The Wise Allegation centered on information submitted by a man named Pate, who was TF White's boss who told KRLD newsman Wes Wise that his mechanic T.F. White saw a 'Red 57 Plymouth 4 door with license plate 'PP 4537' in the parking lot of an El Chico Restaurant (which though no longer in existence was only about one-third to one-half mile away from the Texas Theater, I watched movies in the Texas Theater as a kid and grew up in Oak Cliff) White insisted that the man sitting behind the wheel of the car looked like Lee Harvey Oswald; the man sat in the car for a short while and then 'left at a high rate of speed going west on Davis Street. White

PROVIDED THIS INFORMATION TO WES WISE. White, an elderly mechanic, wrote down the license plate number on a piece of paper. Wise was incredulous, but had to use all the powers of persuasion to get White to give him the paper with the license number on it, which he did. Wise traced the number to Mather, and then passed on the information to the FBI, but kept the paper with the license number on it. Two FBI agents then went to Mather's house in Garland, a blue and white Plymouth with correct license number was in the driveway and Mrs. Mather answered the door. Where was the Plymouth on 11/22/64? At Collins Radio in Richardson, where her husband Carl Mather worked, in the morning. In the afternoon, after the murder of their good friend J.D. Tippit, Carl came home and picked her and the kids up and they went over to Tippits home to pay their respects to Mrs. Tippit. The FBI didn't bother, at least according to the released files, to go over to Collins Radio and check things out, except to have Mather's boss write a letter saying how good Carl Mather was at installing radios on the Vice President's plane.

provided this information to the FBI. The information you referenced Bill are the Mather's denials.

MATHER HAS NEVER DENIED ANYTHING BECAUSE HE'S NEVER BEEN QUESTIONED UNDER OATH BY ANYONE. Mather seems like a good guy who was caught in the crunch. There's no reason to assume anyone is lying.

The make, model and year and license plate number of the car match totally, and it's two tone, blue and white. The "Red" doesn't come into the picture with White describing the car to Wise, but when the FBI write an official report after they interviewed the very nervous White, who Wise had promised wouldn't be bothered by any officials. Instead of interviewing Mather, which they never do, the FBI go after White, intimidate the old man and then the Plymouth suddenly becomes red. Even if White told the FBI red, as Wes Wise speculated to me, perhaps the guy is color blind? He is a mechanic and did get the correct make, model, year and license number of the car. There's no disputing it in my mind, Mather's car was seen at the scene of his friend's murder while he was at work at Collins Radio.

Wes Wise was involved in this story as a newsman at the time and had dinner with the Mather's. He described Carl as 'too nervous too eat.'

CBS "investigate" the situation and two producers sat down with Wise and Mr. and Mrs. Mather to hash out a contract for Mather's story to be in a CBS special, and apparantly they were paid, because Mrs. Mather's name is listed in the credits, but there was nothing about this story in the Dan Rather "documentary."

Also, the Mather's and the Tippit's were supposedly friends (High Treason page 276-277) to the point that the family ostensibly 'went by the Tippit home to offer their condolences.'

THIS COMES FROM THE FBI REPORT ON THEIR VISIT TO THE MATHER HOME, SEEING THE CAR IN THE DRIVEWAY, TALKING TO MRS. MATHER AND THEN NOT DOING ANYTHING ELSE.

What is beyond dispute is that someone is not providing factual information. Either White fabricated the number, HOW COULD WHITE FABRICATE A LICENSE NUMBER THAT MATCHES THE LICENSE OF THE VICTIM'S FRIEND? THERE ARE NO POSSIBLE ODDS ON THIS. IT CANNOT BE A COINCIDENCE.

or the Mather's were lying, MATHER HAS YET TO BE PROPERLY QUESTIONED UNDER OATH. HOPEFULLY BOTH WISE, AND HIS LITTLE NOTE FROM MR. WHITE AND MATHER WILL BE CALLED TO TESTIFY BEFORE THE GRAND JURY AS FRIENDLY MATERIAL WITNESSES.

the only other possibility is that someone took Mather's license plates that day, used them on another car -THAT HAPPENS TO BE A 1957 TWO TONE PLYMOUTH? (that T.F. White witnessed) and then returned them, which I would think is doubtful. ME TOO.

IN ANY CASE, I don't think the case of Mather's car in Oak Cliff should be confused with the movements of the red cars in the same hood.

And Robert, what happened to your report on the Paines? I was looking forward to that.

And Where does DRESSER come in again. I didn't mention them, you did.

Bill Kelly

Bkjfk3@yahoo.com

[Robert Howard]

I don't know where you get Carl Mather's plates, as his plates were firmly attached to his two tone 1957 Plymouth, which was positively IDd in Oak Cliff at the time, as reported in the HSCA Wise Allegation, which leads to Collins Radio Company, where the Plymouth should have been parked while Mather was at work.

Robert, Before you go off accusing anybody of lying, step back and look what happened. I reviewed this very carefully, rode around Dallas and Oak Cliff with Wes Wise, interviewed him on tape and reviewed the records at the NARA on Mather. Like I said, this deserves a separate thread, but here goes on what you say so far:

I think a more accurate assessment of the situation we are discussing would be who is lying.

The Wise Allegation centered on information submitted by a man named Pate, who was TF White's boss who told KRLD newsman Wes Wise that his mechanic T.F. White saw a 'Red 57 Plymouth 4 door with license plate 'PP 4537' in the parking lot of an El Chico Restaurant (which though no longer in existence was only about one-third to one-half mile away from the Texas Theater, I watched movies in the Texas Theater as a kid and grew up in Oak Cliff) White insisted that the man sitting behind the wheel of the car looked like Lee Harvey Oswald; the man sat in the car for a short while and then 'left at a high rate of speed going west on Davis Street. White

PROVIDED THIS INFORMATION TO WES WISE. White, an elderly mechanic, wrote down the license plate number on a piece of paper. Wise was incredulous, but had to use all the powers of persuasion to get White to give him the paper with the license number on it, which he did. Wise traced the number to Mather, and then passed on the information to the FBI, but kept the paper with the license number on it. Two FBI agents then went to Mather's house in Garland, a blue and white Plymouth with correct license number was in the driveway and Mrs. Mather answered the door. Where was the Plymouth on 11/22/64? At Collins Radio in Richardson, where her husband Carl Mather worked, in the morning. In the afternoon, after the murder of their good friend J.D. Tippit, Carl came home and picked her and the kids up and they went over to Tippits home to pay their respects to Mrs. Tippit. The FBI didn't bother, at least according to the released files, to go over to Collins Radio and check things out, except to have Mather's boss write a letter saying how good Carl Mather was at installing radios on the Vice President's plane.

provided this information to the FBI. The information you referenced Bill are the Mather's denials.

MATHER HAS NEVER DENIED ANYTHING BECAUSE HE'S NEVER BEEN QUESTIONED UNDER OATH BY ANYONE. Mather seems like a good guy who was caught in the crunch. There's no reason to assume anyone is lying.

The make, model and year and license plate number of the car match totally, and it's two tone, blue and white. The "Red" doesn't come into the picture with White describing the car to Wise, but when the FBI write an official report after they interviewed the very nervous White, who Wise had promised wouldn't be bothered by any officials. Instead of interviewing Mather, which they never do, the FBI go after White, intimidate the old man and then the Plymouth suddenly becomes red. Even if White told the FBI red, as Wes Wise speculated to me, perhaps the guy is color blind? He is a mechanic and did get the correct make, model, year and license number of the car. There's no disputing it in my mind, Mather's car was seen at the scene of his friend's murder while he was at work at Collins Radio.

Wes Wise was involved in this story as a newsman at the time and had dinner with the Mather's. He described Carl as 'too nervous too eat.'

CBS "investigate" the situation and two producers sat down with Wise and Mr. and Mrs. Mather to hash out a contract for Mather's story to be in a CBS special, and apparantly they were paid, because Mrs. Mather's name is listed in the credits, but there was nothing about this story in the Dan Rather "documentary."

Also, the Mather's and the Tippit's were supposedly friends (High Treason page 276-277) to the point that the family ostensibly 'went by the Tippit home to offer their condolences.'

THIS COMES FROM THE FBI REPORT ON THEIR VISIT TO THE MATHER HOME, SEEING THE CAR IN THE DRIVEWAY, TALKING TO MRS. MATHER AND THEN NOT DOING ANYTHING ELSE.

What is beyond dispute is that someone is not providing factual information. Either White fabricated the number, HOW COULD WHITE FABRICATE A LICENSE NUMBER THAT MATCHES THE LICENSE OF THE VICTIM'S FRIEND? THERE ARE NO POSSIBLE ODDS ON THIS. IT CANNOT BE A COINCIDENCE.

or the Mather's were lying, MATHER HAS YET TO BE PROPERLY QUESTIONED UNDER OATH. HOPEFULLY BOTH WISE, AND HIS LITTLE NOTE FROM MR. WHITE AND MATHER WILL BE CALLED TO TESTIFY BEFORE THE GRAND JURY AS FRIENDLY MATERIAL WITNESSES.

the only other possibility is that someone took Mather's license plates that day, used them on another car -THAT HAPPENS TO BE A 1957 TWO TONE PLYMOUTH? (that T.F. White witnessed) and then returned them, which I would think is doubtful. ME TOO.

IN ANY CASE, I don't think the case of Mather's car in Oak Cliff should be confused with the movements of the red cars in the same hood.

And Robert, what happened to your report on the Paines? I was looking forward to that.

And Where does DRESSER come in again. I didn't mention them, you did.

Bill Kelly

Bkjfk3@yahoo.com

The article on Ruth and Michael Paine is not going to be finished in the next couple of day's as I am juggling about 5 things right now, but will be worth the wait. On Dresser I simply confused Collins with Dresser. On your response to my post I think you really come off like an old grouch, I didn't have access to the information you had and I stand by my comments, as they were presented at the time.

[William Kelly]

The article on Ruth and Michael Paine is not going to be finished in the next couple of day's as I am juggling about 5 things right now, but will be worth the wait. On Dresser I simply confused Collins with Dresser. On your response to my post I think you really come off like an old grouch, I didn't have access to the information you had and I stand by my comments, as they were presented at the time.

Jeze, Robert,

That's the worst thing I've ever been called, an old grouch. But after putting so many years into something it's hard to have it trivialized into an internet forum thread. My purpose is to keep the record as accurate as possible, especially on matters that I am familiar with. When the ARRB was established I decided early on to focus my research on four people - Jim Braden, Arthur Young, Luis Angel Castillo and Carl Mather. I give you and everybody access to everything I've learned, if asked. I think your research is right on, and you are on the right track. People have said that I've accused Carl Mather and Jim Braden and others of all sorts of things, when in fact I am depending on them to be good, honest people who also want to set the record straight. Maybe I am an old grouch. Sorry to disapoint you, as you're the one who convinced me to join this forum in the first place.

BK