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Who Was [Is?] Willie Randall?


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#31 Greg Parker

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 01:15 AM

Greg,

Just a couple of things, as for the employment agency, it was officially called the Gould-Massey Employment Agency. Maybe that might help finding the listing. It began operation in 1958 at the North Ervay address but I don't know if it ever relocated.

Thanks again, James. If you're sure it existed - albeit under a slightly different name and an entirely different location to what Buell said - I have no reason to doubt it. Buell did say he'd gone to a few agencies, so he may have been confused about their various locations. The bottom line though remains... did he actually get the job through them, or as a result of Linnie Mae's list of possibilities? My thinking is - and I speak from experience in the recruitment sector - that a business employing seasonal workers engaged in manual labor - especially given they were so slack they didn't bother with time cards, lunch bells etc would rarely be bothered using an employment agency. Not saying Truly didn't - but it would have been great had someone asked him.

Also Bill Randle's father's name was Alfred and he died in 1976. And amongst all the brothers there was a sister named Dorothy.

Well! That'll teach me (for the umpteenth time!) not to be too quick to jump to concussions in trying to trace family relationships. Can't even recall where I got the info on his father dying in the '90s, but his name being Edward did make sense given that is also William's middle name. When researching the article, I found record of an Edward Randle living in Illinois during early '40s with a partial list of family members named Charlie, Donald and Marvin.

Thanks for correction. Glad I didn't use it.

James



#32 James Richards

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 03:56 AM

Greg,

Alfred Randle (the father) actually lived at 2837 West Shady Grove. He was employed by his son Marvin at the Irving Counter Top Co. as a cabinet maker.

Alfred had a brother named Edward.

The employment agency certainly did exist. It was owned by Louise Gould and Helen Massey.

Cheers,

James

#33 Greg Parker

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 02:41 AM

Greg,

Alfred Randle (the father) actually lived at 2837 West Shady Grove. He was employed by his son Marvin at the Irving Counter Top Co. as a cabinet maker.

James,
a popular street. Oswald cashed a check at Hutch's Grocery Store at 2333, Berry Caster lived at 214 and by August '64, Buell was living in an apartment at 1413.


Alfred had a brother named Edward.

Maybe I found his uncle... but if so, Marvin and Donald must have been staying there on holidays or something.

The employment agency certainly did exist. It was owned by Louise Gould and Helen Massey.

Yes. It's listed in the '64 directory at the address you previously gave. I thought maybe it had a sub-branch in Irving, but nothing at all listed for Shady Grove where Buell placed it. And I still have concerns over why Buell didn't mention Linnie-Mae's help in his job hunting and why Linnie Mae didn't mention he'd actually got the job through an agency and not as a result of her listing it as a possibility.

Some tantalizing tidbits are emerging about the Randles and those behind the Gould-Massey Employment Service. Your input has been much appreciated and helpful in establishing those leads. In fact, you may be able to help further...

Do you know of any links between Massey (or Gould) to members of the Dallas Citizens Council, or to the JBS?

Do you have anything of possible interest on the Borg-Warner Corporation?

Cheers,

James


Edited by Greg Parker, 09 November 2007 - 02:43 AM.


#34 James Richards

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 04:32 AM

Greg,

The only possible connection I have come across is via Ben Cabell, Earle's brother (Ben, amongst other things was a member of the Dallas Citizens Council). Ben Cabell died in 1964.

Ben Cabell's daughter, Sarah, married a man named Thomas Massey. He fits into the Massey family somehow but I have not been able to ascertain how.

I have never really looked at Borg-Warner other than them being named by the Justice Department along with Dresser Industries and Halliburton Co. in a 1961 complaint signed by Robert Kennedy in an antitrust suit alleging monopolistic control of patents on an oil well servicing process.

James

Edited by James Richards, 09 November 2007 - 05:05 AM.


#35 Royce Bierma

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 06:15 AM

While researching on the Mannlicher-Carcano, I came across Warren Commission exhibit CE 1331:

CE 1331

What I found interesting was that the SS was seeking not only records of transactions dealing with Lee Harvey Oswald, but those dealing as well with one Willie Randall. A Google search on "Willie Randall" turned up only references to a jazz musician by that name.





I attempted to search the archives here on the forum for Willie Randall as well, but came up empty handed.

Anyone have a clue why the Secret Service was also interested in Willie Randall, in association with the Mannlicher-Carcano and/or the scope?





Mark, according to CE1799, the postal inspectors, including in particular Harry Holmes, interviewed a Mr. and Mrs. C. P. Schneider of Irving, Texas, in the neighborhood of the Paines and Randles, on November 22, 1963, at 6pm. They said that Mrs. Ed Roberts, i.e.
Dorothy Roberts, told them that "Willie Randle" had driven Oswald to work that morning. She apparently didn't know that it was Wesley Frazier who drove Oswald to work that morning. The Secret Service however took the name Willie Randall and tried to connect it with firearm sales. They should have looked up Buell Wesley Frazier instead.

Roy

Edited by Royce Bierma, 11 August 2008 - 06:17 AM.


#36 Greg Parker

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 06:38 AM

While researching on the Mannlicher-Carcano, I came across Warren Commission exhibit CE 1331:

CE 1331

What I found interesting was that the SS was seeking not only records of transactions dealing with Lee Harvey Oswald, but those dealing as well with one Willie Randall. A Google search on "Willie Randall" turned up only references to a jazz musician by that name.





I attempted to search the archives here on the forum for Willie Randall as well, but came up empty handed.

Anyone have a clue why the Secret Service was also interested in Willie Randall, in association with the Mannlicher-Carcano and/or the scope?





Mark, according to CE1799, the postal inspectors, including in particular Harry Holmes, interviewed a Mr. and Mrs. C. P. Schneider of Irving, Texas, in the neighborhood of the Paines and Randles, on November 22, 1963, at 6pm. They said that Mrs. Ed Roberts, i.e.
Dorothy Roberts, told them that "Willie Randle" had driven Oswald to work that morning. She apparently didn't know that it was Wesley Frazier who drove Oswald to work that morning. The Secret Service however took the name Willie Randall and tried to connect it with firearm sales. They should have looked up Buell Wesley Frazier instead.

Roy


Thanks Roy! Nice job. Randle had left that morning bound for Austin with a fellow employee of his brother's firm named Berry Castor. Maybe Roberts mistook Castor for Oswald?

#37 Royce Bierma

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 02:32 PM

While researching on the Mannlicher-Carcano, I came across Warren Commission exhibit CE 1331:

CE 1331

What I found interesting was that the SS was seeking not only records of transactions dealing with Lee Harvey Oswald, but those dealing as well with one Willie Randall. A Google search on "Willie Randall" turned up only references to a jazz musician by that name.





I attempted to search the archives here on the forum for Willie Randall as well, but came up empty handed.

Anyone have a clue why the Secret Service was also interested in Willie Randall, in association with the Mannlicher-Carcano and/or the scope?





Mark, according to CE1799, the postal inspectors, including in particular Harry Holmes, interviewed a Mr. and Mrs. C. P. Schneider of Irving, Texas, in the neighborhood of the Paines and Randles, on November 22, 1963, at 6pm. They said that Mrs. Ed Roberts, i.e.
Dorothy Roberts, told them that "Willie Randle" had driven Oswald to work that morning. She apparently didn't know that it was Wesley Frazier who drove Oswald to work that morning. The Secret Service however took the name Willie Randall and tried to connect it with firearm sales. They should have looked up Buell Wesley Frazier instead.

Roy


Thanks Roy! Nice job. Randle had left that morning bound for Austin with a fellow employee of his brother's firm named Berry Castor. Maybe Roberts mistook Castor for Oswald?



Greg, thanks. My reading of the exhibit is that Roberts was told that "Randle", which she couldn't spell, or the SS guy spelled phonetically, drove Oswald to the depository that morning. Consequently, the authorities figured Randle, whose first name she got wrong, and whose last name she didn't know was really Frazier, might be an accomplice of Oswald since he, Frazier, drove him to work that morning along with a rifle. The authorities thought they were investigating that young boy(Willie Randall). But why the scope investigation, rather than the rifle. Had someone at the TSBD found a rifle without a scope, or one with a scope that they thought had been purchased separately? Still some questions here to be answered.

Cheers,

Roy

#38 Duke Lane

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 10:42 PM

... What I found interesting was that the SS was seeking not only records of transactions dealing with Lee Harvey Oswald, but those dealing as well with one Willie Randall. ... Anyone have a clue why the Secret Service was also interested in Willie Randall, in association with the Mannlicher-Carcano and/or the scope?

Mark, according to CE1799, the postal inspectors, including in particular Harry Holmes, interviewed a Mr. and Mrs. C. P. Schneider of Irving, Texas, in the neighborhood of the Paines and Randles, on November 22, 1963, at 6pm. They said that Mrs. Ed Roberts, i.e. Dorothy Roberts, told them that "Willie Randle" had driven Oswald to work that morning. She apparently didn't know that it was Wesley Frazier who drove Oswald to work that morning. The Secret Service however took the name Willie Randall and tried to connect it with firearm sales. They should have looked up Buell Wesley Frazier instead.

Thanks Roy! Nice job. Randle had left that morning bound for Austin with a fellow employee of his brother's firm named Berry Castor. Maybe Roberts mistook Castor for Oswald?

Greg, thanks. My reading of the exhibit is that Roberts was told that "Randle", which she couldn't spell, or the SS guy spelled phonetically, drove Oswald to the depository that morning. Consequently, the authorities figured Randle, whose first name she got wrong, and whose last name she didn't know was really Frazier, might be an accomplice of Oswald since he, Frazier, drove him to work that morning along with a rifle. The authorities thought they were investigating that young boy (Willie Randall). But why the scope investigation, rather than the rifle. Had someone at the TSBD found a rifle without a scope, or one with a scope that they thought had been purchased separately? Still some questions here to be answered.

Well, clearly Linnie May's husband could as easily gone by "Willie" as Bill or William, and Dorothy Roberts said that Linnie May - along with Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald - had made a habit of coming over to her house fairly frequently. If the Schneiders merely repeated the story Roberts had told them - complete with the name that either or both Dorothy and/or Linnie Mae called Linnie Mae's husband, there you have that; "Randle," of course, has the same phonetic sound as "Randall."

I agree that it makes sense that "Willie Randall" would be investigated as a possible accomplice, but it doesn't make sense that postal folks didn't go the extra step in determining where this "Willie Randle" lived and interview him, even if only to get his name spelled correctly! Being aware of Buell Frazier, it also doesn't make sense that, if they were going to gain an interest in investigating "Willie Randle" whom Oswald had driven to work with, that they didn't also have an interest in investigating Frazier along the same lines. Or perhaps they had, and figured they'd follow up on this "new" fellow!

More suprising, however, is the bland acceptance of Martin Retting's pronouncement that, although he had sold a quantity of scopes to Dave's House of Guns at 2544 Elm Street in Dallas, "Klein's Sporting Goods would be the logical place of business that Oswald would have purchased the gun sight as well as the gun." What would make a mail order location in Chicago more "logical" for a Dallasite to do business than a place in Dallas?

As to:

... Yet here's the affidavit of David Goldstein, owner of Dave's House of Guns: http://mcadams.posc....ny/goldst_d.htm. Funny that Dave WASN'T ASKED about the MC or any Jap riflescope at all...but was ONLY questioned about Oswald's handgun. That might just indicate that the FBI really didn't WANT Dave Goldstein's answers about the MC or the riflescope on the record.

... it might be noted that Goldstein was interviewed "within 10 days of the assassination," i.e., on or before December 2, 1963; Retting wasn't interviewed until December 3, 1500 miles away, and by agents of a different agency. If there is anyone who would expect the Secret Service to relay the results of an interview to the FBI a day or two before the Secret Service interview took place has not had much experience in dealing with either the US Government or with reality; to expect it to be relayed to the proper persons within days or even weeks after the event is itself unrealistic.

Edited by Duke Lane, 11 August 2008 - 10:52 PM.


#39 Mark Knight

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 04:56 AM

Duke, I wasn't aware that the FBI wasn't allowed to make a follow-up interview after learning of the SS info about the riflescope.

My bad. I thought that a follow-up interview with Goldstein, in light of the fact that Klein's and Dave's House of Guns--located mere blocks from where Oswald worked--were the two PRIMARY customers for the particular riflescope found on the Carcano, would be appropriate. Especially if the TRUTH was what was being sought.

I stand corrected. I guess I watch too much TV, where law enforcement is allowed, or even encouraged, to do follow-up interviews. Sorry if my fantasies intruded on the WC investigation realities.

I'll go sit in the corner now.

#40 Duke Lane

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Posted 12 August 2008 - 07:05 AM

Duke, I wasn't aware that the FBI wasn't allowed to make a follow-up interview after learning of the SS info about the riflescope. ... Especially if the TRUTH was what was being sought.

I stand corrected. I guess I watch too much TV, where law enforcement is allowed, or even encouraged, to do follow-up interviews. Sorry if my fantasies intruded on the WC investigation realities. I'll go sit in the corner now.

TV is a perfect world. The truth is that we only hope that law enforcement (and intelligence) agencies are sharing information and garnering new leads in faster, more efficient ways. A whole new bureaucracy was invented, as a matter of fact, to ensure that entrenched, territorial bureaucracies would interact (or, to be generous, would interact better) with other entrenched, territorial bureaucracies ... that as a reaction to the fact that, as late as September 11 2001, those bureaucracies were not playing well together in the sandbox.

Call it what you will: an "intelligence failure" or simple inter-service rivalry, but it's been there for years. The murder of a president didn't change it, any more than the desire to keep 220 floors of American businesses from crumbling down prevented it. Hopefully, reality will take a lesson from TV.


As I'd pointed out, the Dave's interview was done by the FBI in Dallas within 10 days of the assassination; the Retting interview was conducted by the USSS in Los Angeles a day or two later. Those reports were not emailed to headquarters, subjected to rules-based computer logic, and disseminated to agencies with a need to know over a high-speed secure connection. They filtered their ways through the respective field offices of each agency, evaluated by the SAIC, compiled into larger reports and transmitted in printed form to the respective headquarters, where they were probably copied and circulated and compiled again into even larger reports, approved and eventually forwarded to the Warren Commission, which received similar voluminous reports from both agencies and others (and at least one envelope from CIA).

How many hundreds if not thousands of cubic feet of documents was it that were eventually filed? A typical "banker's box" file is only two cubic feet. We're talking about more paper than you and I could read together in a year, and the WC did it in about three months. Efficiently, you think?

(If decades-later experience is any indicator, the "need to know" was determined by the simple principle that select people within an agency had one, but nobody from another agency did. Maybe, just maybe, we're getting past that syndrome now, and probably only reluctantly, at the lower levels anyway.)

Thus, when the WC got these reports - many of several hundred pages each - someone had to go through them and evaluate the material within. Chances are that this was not one person, and that every word written was not read. It's a reasonable presumption that one person might've read the FBI report (which might have reached the WC as late as February or March; remember, they didn't really even open their doors until late January) while another read the USSS report.

Their job - as in any bureaucracy or even a large company - is to cull important things out for the bosses, the busy counsel and assistant counsel who were already working on the skeleton of the Commission's Report and planning their depositions; it wasn't Arlen Specter and Joe Ball going through all that raw material, and damned sure Hale Boggs and Earl Warren weren't burning the midnight oil looking for anomalies like this for FBI investigation.

Assume for the moment that the guy reading the USSS report might actually have known about - or even read - the FBI report on Dave's, or vice versa. Did he think it was important? Did he bring it to anyone's attention? Certainly, he was in no position to tell Hoover and his FBI to send someone out to Dave's to re-interview anybody. But let's say that he got somebody's attention: it undoubtedly went up the line for evaluation (and, presumably, approval) and added in to the batch of stuff that the WC needed to get or wanted to bring up with either agency, most likely the FBI. That meeting was going to be next week.

In the meanwhile, more reports had come in, other questions had arisen, and maybe that question about the scope wasn't that big of a deal anyway since we already know that Oswald had gotten the rifle from Klein's, and the USSS's interviewee - an expert in the field, after all - had speculated that the "most logical" place he'd have gotten the scope was from Klein's, so since it was possible - and logical - that must be the way it happened. File this, willya?

(Or maybe J. Edgar just didn't think it was important and it didn't get done.)

That's not the kind of reality they depict on TV, but it is a reality.

Um ... you didn't really buy that "Truth is our only client" hooha, did you? Remember, as counsel learned more about what had happened from interviewing witnesses, they were admonished that "it's time to be closing doors, not opening them." The truth was not going to keep them waiting past election time, and that's all there was to that. They barely made it.

Let me know how the view is. :ice

:lol:




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