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Who Instigated the Dallas Trip, and When?


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#1 Ashton Gray

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Posted 22 July 2006 - 06:37 PM

I raised this question in a related thread in the Watergate forum, being posed now as a few related questions: Who first planted the idea of a trip to Dallas and when was it put on the agenda? Where and when did it actually originate?

Please note that this is not a question about any "route change." This has to go back earlier, even earlier than any "route" being planned at all. This is the genesis of the idea for Kennedy to go to Dallas that I'm asking about, and nothing else.

The following is just grabbed from a reply I recently posted to Peter Lemkin in the thread in the Watergate forum, and is included with the caveat that I haven't done any in-depth looking, and am hoping somebody might have, or be able to find, an answer:The one question of whether Kennedy had been set up to go to Dallas prior to 14 October 1963 or not is absolutely crucial. Central. Pivotal. That's the tea party with Ruth Hyde Paine and Marina and Linnie Mae Frazier after which Paine does the set-up for Oswald being hired at the TSBD.

If plans for Kennedy to go to Dallas were made prior to 14 October 1963, that's the end of all "lone assassin" theories. Their dust can be put into an urn and scattered at sea, and the JFK Assassination forum will be entirely deloused of that whole faction of disinformation scum.

There also would be some relevance and point of reference to the "route change" that would then fit into a whole.

We'd also then know that the Paine track will connect with the instigators for the Dallas trip somewhere, somehow, and you're on the hot trail. It might even run into Southwestern as yet another CIA front.

Yet I go to look for that one absolutely crucial piece of information about when and by whom the decision to go to Dallas was made or planted, and can't find it anywhere. It's this giant, yawning, gaping Grand Canyon where an eight-lane highway of crucial information should be. But by God there's 40 million man-hours of arguing over crap that can never possibly have any resolution, specifically because it was set up just that way.

It's Bedlam, just like Watergate was before somebody did an actual timeline of it—only exponentially worse in the JFK assassination case.

I'm willing to bet the farm that the answer to my question can be found in the available literature somewhere, but I'll also predict that the date has been heavily obfuscated, since this is another primary psy-op tool... .
I hope I am very wrong about this and that somebody here does have the answer or a place to look to find it.

Ashton Gray

Edited by Ashton Gray, 22 July 2006 - 07:00 PM.


#2 Ron Ecker

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Posted 22 July 2006 - 07:23 PM

A trip by JFK to Texas was first discussed by JFK, Vice President Lyndon Johnson, and Governor John Connally on June 5, 1963, at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, Texas. (JFK had spoken earlier that day at the Air Force Academy in Colorado.) According to Johnson aide Cliff Carter, who was present during part of this meeting, the first date discussed was August 27, to coincide with Johnson’s birthday. This date was rejected because “it was too close to Labor Day.” (August 27, 1963, was a Tuesday; Labor Day was Monday, September 2, six days later.) Other commitments prevented JFK from going to Texas any sooner than November 21, the date finally set. Originally there were to be visits to Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio, and Houston, all in one day. In September, the White House decided to permit the Texas trip to be extended from the afternoon of November 21 to the evening of November 22, allowing time for a motorcade in Dallas. Connally met with JFK at the White House on October 4 to discuss details of the trip.

Sources: Affidavit of Clifton C. Carter, May 20, 1964, Warren Commission 7:475; Warren Commission Report, p. 29.

#3 Ashton Gray

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Posted 22 July 2006 - 08:08 PM

Outstanding, Ron. Thanks very much.

A trip by JFK to Texas was first discussed by JFK, Vice President Lyndon Johnson, and Governor John Connally on June 5, 1963, at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, Texas. (JFK had spoken earlier that day at the Air Force Academy in Colorado.) According to Johnson aide Cliff Carter, who was present during part of this meeting, the first date discussed was August 27, to coincide with Johnson’s birthday. This date was rejected because “it was too close to Labor Day.” (August 27, 1963, was a Tuesday; Labor Day was Monday, September 2, six days later.)


Any indication in the record at all of which of the three originated the idea, and why?

Other commitments prevented JFK from going to Texas any sooner than November 21, the date finally set. Originally there were to be visits to Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio, and Houston, all in one day. In September, the White House decided to permit the Texas trip to be extended from the afternoon of November 21 to the evening of November 22, allowing time for a motorcade in Dallas.


The "in September" broad stroke is entirely consistent with a constantly repeating pattern when following CIA spoor where crucial dates are made as vague as is possible. So is the generality "the White House." The White House doesn't do anything but stand there and attract tourists.

So now I'll put these questions to the room: who at the White House made or influenced this critical decision, and when "in September"? It's guaranteed to lock like the teeth of a gear into other factors. And I'll bet the farm again that it dovetails with approximately when Buell Wesley Frazier got hired at the TSBD.

Connally met with JFK at the White House on October 4 to discuss details of the trip.


Well, this is perfect. Exactly ten days later, Buell's sister Linnie Mae has a coffee klatch with her neighbors, Ruth Hyde Paine dials a little ringy-dingy, and the next day Oswald is hired at the TSBD.

The "lone assassin theory" nutcases don't even have any toys to pick up before they go home. They just need to report in to their handlers now for a different assignment.

Ashton

#4 John Simkin

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Posted 22 July 2006 - 08:10 PM

A trip by JFK to Texas was first discussed by JFK, Vice President Lyndon Johnson, and Governor John Connally on June 5, 1963, at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, Texas. (JFK had spoken earlier that day at the Air Force Academy in Colorado.) According to Johnson aide Cliff Carter, who was present during part of this meeting, the first date discussed was August 27, to coincide with Johnson’s birthday.


Also at this meeting was Fred Korth. JFK forced Korth to resign at the end of October, 1963, as a result of the emerging TFX/General Dynamics scandal. Don Reynolds gave evidence on this in a private session of the Senate Rules Committee on the day that JFK was assassinated. His evidence included that Johnson got $100,000 for arranging the TFX contract to go to General Dynamics. According to Billie Sol Estes, Cliff Carter was implicated in the assassination of JFK. General Dynamics went on to become one of the three Texas based companies to make their fortunes out of the Vietnam War (Brown & Root/Halliburton and Bell Corporation were the others). All three companies helped to fund LBJ political campaigns. Small world.

#5 Jack White

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 12:28 AM

Outstanding, Ron. Thanks very much.


A trip by JFK to Texas was first discussed by JFK, Vice President Lyndon Johnson, and Governor John Connally on June 5, 1963, at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, Texas. (JFK had spoken earlier that day at the Air Force Academy in Colorado.) According to Johnson aide Cliff Carter, who was present during part of this meeting, the first date discussed was August 27, to coincide with Johnson’s birthday. This date was rejected because “it was too close to Labor Day.” (August 27, 1963, was a Tuesday; Labor Day was Monday, September 2, six days later.)


Any indication in the record at all of which of the three originated the idea, and why?

Other commitments prevented JFK from going to Texas any sooner than November 21, the date finally set. Originally there were to be visits to Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio, and Houston, all in one day. In September, the White House decided to permit the Texas trip to be extended from the afternoon of November 21 to the evening of November 22, allowing time for a motorcade in Dallas.


The "in September" broad stroke is entirely consistent with a constantly repeating pattern when following CIA spoor where crucial dates are made as vague as is possible. So is the generality "the White House." The White House doesn't do anything but stand there and attract tourists.

So now I'll put these questions to the room: who at the White House made or influenced this critical decision, and when "in September"? It's guaranteed to lock like the teeth of a gear into other factors. And I'll bet the farm again that it dovetails with approximately when Buell Wesley Frazier got hired at the TSBD.

Connally met with JFK at the White House on October 4 to discuss details of the trip.


Well, this is perfect. Exactly ten days later, Buell's sister Linnie Mae has a coffee klatch with her neighbors, Ruth Hyde Paine dials a little ringy-dingy, and the next day Oswald is hired at the TSBD.

The "lone assassin theory" nutcases don't even have any toys to pick up before they go home. They just need to report in to their handlers now for a different assignment.

Ashton


Outstanding, Ashton! I have long suspected (along with the late Mary Ferrell)
that BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER knew more than he was telling. The police spent
all night questioning him. I think they gave him a polygraph. But to get to him,
you now have to contend with his babysitter.

Jack

#6 Steven Gaal

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 12:55 AM

DEAR JOHN,Please let me add that an early trip supporter of the JFK/Dallas trip was the CIA connected San Jacinto Foundation. A member of this group was John Mecom SR (mob also). Mr. Mecom and his son Mecom JR (mob also) were both friends of DEMOH. Mecom Sr's lawyer, Ernest Carrere , sat on the board of National American Bank of New Orleans...along with Clem A. Sehrt (later President of Bank)..and Leon Tujague. (you know both Sehrt and Tujague of course). Ernest Carrere also worked for EMPIRE TRUST COMPANY that Jack Crichton also worked for........EMPIRE TRUST ran their own world wide intell service....(would they be in cooperation with CIA ?)...................................THANKS SG see link
http://www.cia-on-ca...g/nsa/nsa2.html

Edited by Steven Gaal, 23 July 2006 - 12:57 AM.


#7 Jack White

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 01:04 AM

DEAR JOHN,Please let me add that an early trip supporter of the JFK/Dallas trip was the CIA connected San Jacinto Foundation. A member of this group was John Mecom SR (mob also). Mr. Mecom and his son Mecom JR (mob also) were both friends of DEMOH. Mecom Sr's lawyer, Ernest Carrere , sat on the board of National American Bank of New Orleans...along with Clem A. Sehrt (later President of Bank)..and Leon Tujague. (you know both Sehrt and Tujague of course). Ernest Carrere also worked for EMPIRE TRUST COMPANY that Jack Crichton also worked for........EMPIRE TRUST ran their own world wide intell service....(would they be in cooperation with CIA ?)...................................THANKS SG see link
http://www.cia-on-ca...g/nsa/nsa2.html

Thanks, Steve! Nice to hear from you!

You know of course...TUJAGUE (pronounced TOO-JACK) was a New Orleans
employer of Lee Harvey Oswald. (See Harvey and Lee by Armstrong).

Jack

Edited by Jack White, 23 July 2006 - 01:04 AM.


#8 John Dolva

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 01:28 AM

a question:: In Theodore Soerensens 'Kennedy' a luncheon in the White House is mentioned (p372) where the publisher of Dallas News demanded 'a man on horseback to lead this nation'. This is presented as a sign of hate for Kennedy.

In white supremacy lore 'the man on horseback (in shining armour)' is an anticipated, looked for 'Leader'. In the prewar (US entry) this was suggested to be Charles Lindbergh. Given the rhetoric of the times, could this have been Walker in the sixties?

Kennedy was not one to shirk confronting his enemies. He was by this time already sparring with the John Birch Society.

Given that throwing down the gauntlet to Kennedy could assure an acceptance of a Dallas trip, my question is to see if anyone knows the date of this luncheon?

Given the context of the telling in 'Kennedy' it would appear to be in '63.

Edited by John Dolva, 23 July 2006 - 01:29 AM.


#9 James Richards

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 01:29 AM

DEAR JOHN,Please let me add that an early trip supporter of the JFK/Dallas trip was the CIA connected San Jacinto Foundation. A member of this group was John Mecom SR (mob also). Mr. Mecom and his son Mecom JR (mob also) were both friends of DEMOH. Mecom Sr's lawyer, Ernest Carrere , sat on the board of National American Bank of New Orleans...along with Clem A. Sehrt (later President of Bank)..and Leon Tujague. (you know both Sehrt and Tujague of course). Ernest Carrere also worked for EMPIRE TRUST COMPANY that Jack Crichton also worked for........EMPIRE TRUST ran their own world wide intell service....(would they be in cooperation with CIA ?)...................................THANKS SG see link
http://www.cia-on-ca...g/nsa/nsa2.html


John Mecom Jr. was a director and shareholder in the companies, Hidden Lake Corp. and New Orleans Property Incorporated. A partner in both these concerns was Berald Sonnor who had a record of forming partnerships with individuals who were also business associates of Carlos Marcello.

Mecom was also close friends with brothers James and Anthony Moran, owners of the La Louisiana Restaurant in the French Quarter of New Orleans. The brothers were the sons of Diamond Jim Moran who boxed professionally and was a bodyguard for Huey Long. Carlos Marcello was also associated with the Moran brothers socially and financially.

FWIW.

James

#10 Dawn Meredith

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 09:44 AM

[quote name='Ashton Gray' date='Jul 22 2006, 07:37 PM' post='69796']
I raised this question in a related thread in the Watergate forum, being posed now as a few related questions: Who first planted the idea of a trip to Dallas and when was it put on the agenda? Where and when did it actually originate?


Ashton:

"Governor Connolly stated that the trip originated in talks held in1962 and again in1963. (4H163) "
HSCA from Lawson, Belford to Gary Cornwell and Ken Klein (05-31-77 28 pages (180-10093-10320
Agency file no. 001511)

I got this last nite, but was too tired to go on the forum, and see this morning that there is a lot of good information here.

Dawn

#11 Ashton Gray

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 06:48 PM

"Governor Connolly stated that the trip originated in talks held in1962 and again in1963. (4H163) "
HSCA from Lawson, Belford to Gary Cornwell and Ken Klein (05-31-77 28 pages (180-10093-10320
Agency file no. 001511)

I got this last nite, but was too tired to go on the forum, and see this morning that there is a lot of good information here.


Thanks, Dawn. I saw the information you posted in the related thread in the Watergate forum, too. Thanks for that, too. I hope you'll get an opportunity to post it in this thread.

The phrase "talks held in 1962 and again in 1963" is the exact kind of very intentional inexactness that so blurred the Watergate landscape for decades that nothing could be brought into focus until the key events were tracked down hard and very accurately timelined.

The same thing applies to the Kennedy assassination, but cubed. The amount of dispersal on all of it is an amazing thing to watch. It's going to go right on flying outward in thousands of different direction at once, too, until somebody gets deadly serious about timelining it. It would take a lot of work, but probably fewer man hours than are expended in this one forum alone in a month or two on wholly irrelevant and wholly unresolvable minutiae.

It is to weep.

Ashton

#12 Brendan Slattery

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 07:22 PM

Well, this is perfect. Exactly ten days later, Buell's sister Linnie Mae has a coffee klatch with her neighbors, Ruth Hyde Paine dials a little ringy-dingy, and the next day Oswald is hired at the TSBD.

The "lone assassin theory" nutcases don't even have any toys to pick up before they go home. They just need to report in to their handlers now for a different assignment.

Ashton


Welcome to Buff Land, where a coincidence is never a coincidence. Should Mrs. Paine file her defamation suit in her state or yours, Ashton?

#13 Michael Hogan

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 07:51 PM

Ashton,

If you have not already done so, I am sure you would enjoy reading John Armstrong's Harvey & Lee. (Subtitle: How the CIA framed Oswald)

Armstrong's well documented book contains nearly 1000 pages and covers much more than just the two Oswalds. Almost the entire book is written in timeline form, and that's the main reason I think you might find it compelling reading.

Mike Hogan

#14 Ashton Gray

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 07:54 PM



Well, this is perfect. Exactly ten days later, Buell's sister Linnie Mae has a coffee klatch with her neighbors, Ruth Hyde Paine dials a little ringy-dingy, and the next day Oswald is hired at the TSBD. ...


Welcome to Buff Land, where a coincidence is never a coincidence.


The problem with you "coincidence" jockies is that you never seem to notice when you're suddenly caught trying to ride six related "coincidences" at once. You're already stretched so thin on this one concatenation of events that you're see-through.

Should Mrs. Paine file her defamation suit in her state or yours, Ashton?


Well, Brendan, if Mrs. Paine thinks she can prevail on a claim that "dials a little ringy-dingy" is defamation, I'd say she should file it in the state of hysteria.

No matter where she might file, discovery would be a fiesta.

Ashton Gray

#15 Ashton Gray

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Posted 23 July 2006 - 08:06 PM

Ashton,

If you have not already done so, I am sure you would enjoy reading John Armstrong's Harvey & Lee. (Subtitle: How the CIA framed Oswald)

Armstrong's well documented book contains nearly 1000 pages and covers much more than just the two Oswalds. Almost the entire book is written in timeline form, and that's the main reason I think you might find it compelling reading.

Mike Hogan


Thanks very much, Michael. Unfortunately, despite a brief flurry of hit-and-miss forays into this forum, I'm going to continue to concentrate the little time I have on the Watergate work, at least until the series of articles I'm working on there is completed. I definitely intend to get to the book you cited as soon as I can, but I'm far behind the curve on the JFK assassination, and have too many other obligations to have time to do what I think needs to be done on it.

I am, though, about to post one more post in this forum (in a new topic) going directly to the subject of timelines and the importance I think should be placed on getting a thorough one done on the JFK assassination. That isn't even to suggest that the book you recommend is somehow wanting, because I simply don't know, not having read it. It sounds like it would be an invaluable resource. (But I do have to add that I have a gut feeling that if it had fully done the job of a timeline, we wouldn't all be here right now. That also could be dead wrong.)

In any case, if I can figure out how and it's kosher, I'm going to add an attachment of a timeline database template to the message in new topic I'm going to start, in the hopes that somebody will pick it up and do something useful with it. I've made just a few entries from the information in this very thread to get it rolling, but for some time I'm simply not going to be able to approach it further.

Thanks again very much for the reference. I look forward to finally carving out time to read it.

Ashton




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