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Danny Arce and the peeing old man


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#1 Mark Valenti

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 05:37 PM

Danny Arce is a guy who warrants further interest. His offers some conflicting statements, he is a less than believable witness and he's the *only* TSBD employee who actually helped a non-employee enter the building just minutes before the assassination. More on him later, but for now, here's a snippet from his WC testimony.



Mr. ARCE. I helped this old man, this gentleman in there.
Mr. BALL. You saw an old man?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. ARCE. Right in front of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. When?
Mr. ARCE. Right, you know, it was before it happened; I don't know.
Mr. BALL. How long before the President went by?
Mr. ARCE. I don't know. I think it was about 10 minutes, some place around there, 15 minutes; I'm not too sure.
Mr. BALL. What about the old man; what was noticeable about him?
Mr. ARCE. Well, he said he had kidney trouble, could I direct him to the men's room and I said I would and I helped him up the steps and walked him into the restroom and I opened the door for him and that's when I went inside to eat my lunch and then I seen him walk out.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him talk to anyone in there?
Mr. ARCE. No; he went straight out.
Mr. BALL. Was he in a car?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah, after I went outside I seen him driving out in a black car.
Mr. BALL. He drove away?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. ARCE. No, never seen him again.


So this old man gets out of his car somewhere near a Presidential parade route and enters the building saying that he has "kidney trouble." Then later, after Arce has finished his lunch, he sees the man driving away, never to be seen again.

In his sworn deposition, Arce says that the man didn't have anything in his hands when he entered the TSBD building. But he doesn't provide a full description of the man's clothing, physical appearance, nor does he state that he followed the man into the building and/or watched what he did once he was in the building. Essentially, Arce says he let this stranger into the building and never thought about him again.

To put on a James Bond thinking cap, anybody can make themselves up to look like an old man.

MV

#2 Robert Howard

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 09:54 PM

Danny Arce is a guy who warrants further interest. His offers some conflicting statements, he is a less than believable witness and he's the *only* TSBD employee who actually helped a non-employee enter the building just minutes before the assassination. More on him later, but for now, here's a snippet from his WC testimony.



Mr. ARCE. I helped this old man, this gentleman in there.
Mr. BALL. You saw an old man?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. ARCE. Right in front of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. When?
Mr. ARCE. Right, you know, it was before it happened; I don't know.
Mr. BALL. How long before the President went by?
Mr. ARCE. I don't know. I think it was about 10 minutes, some place around there, 15 minutes; I'm not too sure.
Mr. BALL. What about the old man; what was noticeable about him?
Mr. ARCE. Well, he said he had kidney trouble, could I direct him to the men's room and I said I would and I helped him up the steps and walked him into the restroom and I opened the door for him and that's when I went inside to eat my lunch and then I seen him walk out.
Mr. BALL. Did you see him talk to anyone in there?
Mr. ARCE. No; he went straight out.
Mr. BALL. Was he in a car?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah, after I went outside I seen him driving out in a black car.
Mr. BALL. He drove away?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. ARCE. No, never seen him again.


So this old man gets out of his car somewhere near a Presidential parade route and enters the building saying that he has "kidney trouble." Then later, after Arce has finished his lunch, he sees the man driving away, never to be seen again.

In his sworn deposition, Arce says that the man didn't have anything in his hands when he entered the TSBD building. But he doesn't provide a full description of the man's clothing, physical appearance, nor does he state that he followed the man into the building and/or watched what he did once he was in the building. Essentially, Arce says he let this stranger into the building and never thought about him again.

To put on a James Bond thinking cap, anybody can make themselves up to look like an old man.

MV

Mark, that information is a new one on me, my first reaction is that it obviously warrants further study, my second reaction is "is there anything about Dealey Plaza 11/22/63, that is not strange?

Edited by Robert Howard, 26 August 2006 - 09:54 PM.


#3 Robin Unger

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 12:42 PM

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Danny Garcia Arce w/m/18 of 1502 Bennett, TA1 3289 who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

I am employed at Texas School Book Depository at 411 Elm. I work all over the building. I was working on the sixth floor all morning. At lunch time at 12:00 noon I went down on the street to see the parade,


While working on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository the only people I saw all morning was [sic] Bill Shelly [sic], Bonnie Ray Williams, Charles Douglas Givens, Billy Lovelady and Jack E. Dougherty.


The only person I saw was a real old man, and he had on an old brown suit and a western type hat. I saw this man leave the building and drive off in an old black Buick. This man was not carrying anything in his hands when I saw him.

This man was in the building after lunch. This man left in the car before the President was shot. I didn't see any other people in the building but this old man, other than the people that I named that worked there

#4 Mark Valenti

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 04:44 PM

The only person I saw was a real old man, and he had on an old brown suit and a western type hat. I saw this man leave the building and drive off in an old black Buick. This man was not carrying anything in his hands when I saw him.


Thanks for this - the only version of the affadavit I saw was a truncated one without a physical description.

#5 William Kelly

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 05:24 PM

Is the old man he saw in the brown suit the same old man he let in to use the men's room?

Or is this the man in the brown suit seen on the sixth floor by people outside?

BK

#6 Lee Forman

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 07:36 PM

I've read this incident before several times. It's not like security was tight in the TSBD or anything. As per a Texas forum, it was common for a teacher to have access to the floors on the TSBD that had the textbooks. While the incident is interesting - I don't see that it can go anywhere - unless the old man is some kind of a distraction to allow something else to happen - which is sheer speculation.

Of course, couple this account with a man named Remigio 'CuCu' Arce who may or may not be related to Danny [did anyone ever ask him?]. Or the fact that Danny is packing oysters at Hal Rubensteins and Sons on Pearl Street, while their most common goods for sale appears to have been DPD clothing and related gear.

#7 William Kelly

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 09:09 PM

I've read this incident before several times. It's not like security was tight in the TSBD or anything. As per a Texas forum, it was common for a teacher to have access to the floors on the TSBD that had the textbooks. While the incident is interesting - I don't see that it can go anywhere - unless the old man is some kind of a distraction to allow something else to happen - which is sheer speculation.

Of course, couple this account with a man named Remigio 'CuCu' Arce who may or may not be related to Danny [did anyone ever ask him?]. Or the fact that Danny is packing oysters at Hal Rubensteins and Sons on Pearl Street, while their most common goods for sale appears to have been DPD clothing and related gear.



Lee,

Three incidents come to mind.

The scene in the Godfather, based on the murder of one of the New York Dons, in which the assassin is searched before meeting for dinner with his mark, and gets a gun from the men's room, where it was left earlier by an accomplice. In reality, the inside guy goes to the men's room while the targets are killed by others.

The second thought is from The Day of the Jackal, where the assassin poses as a one-legged, old vet to get access to an apartment with a window view of the scene to get a sniper shot off.

Of course, if the man who entered the TSBD to use the men's room ten to fifteen minutes before the assassination, is the same man in the brown sports coat seen by others in a sixth floor window, standing next to a man with a rifle, then that means something.

BK

#8 Greg Parker

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 12:50 AM

So this old man gets out of his car somewhere near a Presidential parade route and enters the building saying that he has "kidney trouble." Then later, after Arce has finished his lunch, he sees the man driving away, never to be seen again.

In his sworn deposition, Arce says that the man didn't have anything in his hands when he entered the TSBD building. But he doesn't provide a full description of the man's clothing, physical appearance, nor does he state that he followed the man into the building and/or watched what he did once he was in the building. Essentially, Arce says he let this stranger into the building and never thought about him again.

To put on a James Bond thinking cap, anybody can make themselves up to look like an old man.

MV


Mark, read the deposition again. It does not state anything about seeing the old man enter the building.
What it says is, I saw this man leave the building and drive off in an old black Buick. This man was not carrying anything in his hands when I saw him.

He was not carrying anything when he saw him. And when did he say he saw him? As he was leaving...

Here is a summary of what Arce said, and when:

DPD STATEMENT 22nd Nov63
* working on 6th floor
* lunch at noon, but left 6th floor at 11:50am
* standing on corner of Em & Houston when heard 3 shots fired. Was not with anyone else
* only person seen [who didn't work in building] was old man in old brown suit & western hat as he [old man] was leaving the building prior to the shooting but after lunch
* old man was not carrying anything and drove off in an old black Buick
* saw Oswald on 1st floor at 8:00am and again - this time on 5th floor at 11:50 as coming down for lunch

FBI STATEMENT 18th Feb64
* standing on grassy area directly in front of TSBD when 3 shots fired from direction of railroad tracks near parking lot to the west of the TSBD
* About 45 minutes prior to shooting helped old man up the steps of the TSBD and showed him a public rest room. Old man left about 5 minutes later and drove off in old black Buick with 3 elderly white women.
* The Buick drove north on the service street in front of the TSBD and made a right turn on Elm going west through the underpass
* Old man was feeble, about 80 yo, white, wearing brown suit and light colored western hat, thin build abd about 5' 9"

WC TESTIMONY 7th Apr64
* Worked on 6th floor - floor laying
* Left for lunch at about 11:55am
* Saw Oswald on way down. Thought it was the 5th floor, but could have been 6th.
* Was outside with others, but moved alone to a different location.
* Was outside about 10 minutes before motorcade came along
* First saw the old 10 to 15 minutes before motorcade
* Old man told him he had kidney trouble, and asked to use men's room. Arce then helped him inside and showed him to the restroom, then went to have lunch, after which he saw the man leave. Drove off in a black Buick.

Conclusion: Arce did not help the old man enter, or see or talk to him at the time he entered, as this is absent from his first account. The latter accounts totally screw up times due to trying to accommodate the inclusion of meeting the old man, helping him in etc, in order give the old man a credible reason for being in the building.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't normal police procedure be to publicly request the old man to come forward to make a statement (along with anyone else who may have been in the building that day for whatever reason, up to the time of the assassination)?

#9 Duke Lane

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 08:33 AM

... Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't normal police procedure be to publicly request the old man to come forward to make a statement (along with anyone else who may have been in the building that day for whatever reason, up to the time of the assassination)?

Probably ... but none of them were Lee Harvey Oswald, so why bother? :)

#10 Mark Valenti

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 02:39 PM

Mark, read the deposition again. It does not state anything about seeing the old man enter the building.



* Old man told him he had kidney trouble, and asked to use men's room. Arce then helped him inside and showed him to the restroom, then went to have lunch, after which he saw the man leave. Drove off in a black Buick.

Conclusion: Arce did not help the old man enter, or see or talk to him at the time he entered, as this is absent from his first account. The latter accounts totally screw up times due to trying to accommodate the inclusion of meeting the old man, helping him in etc, in order give the old man a credible reason for being in the building.



Greg,

There's a lot about Danny Arce that is wonky.

#11 Lee Farley

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:11 PM

In November 1963 Danny Arce was interviewed by the Dallas Police. Arce was one of the first individuals to be picked up outside the Texas School Book Depository and he was taken to the station to be interviewed. Therefore the DPD had the perfect opportunity to get the freshest of recollections from him.

In his first day statement Arce claims he saw a "real old man" in the TSBD after he had eaten his lunch. Arce and the other "floor layers" said they left the 6th floor at approximately 11:55 PM. This then puts the stranger in the TSBD about 15-20 minutes prior to the assassination. Arce mentions nothing about helping the stranger into the building. He simply says he saw him in the building and that he saw him leave prior to the motorcade arriving.

http://jfk.ci.dallas...28/2812-001.gif

When Danny Arce appeared before the Warren Commission the counsellor's taking his testimony were not proactive in wanting to to discuss this stranger. It was up to Arce to bring this event up:

Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?
Mr. ARCE. Back inside the building.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in there?
Mr. ARCE. Oh, about 15 minutes and they took us down to city hall to make statements out.
Mr. BALL. Then you made out your statement?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; to the Police Department.
Mr. BALL. Well, just 1 minute, let's see---
Mr. ARCE. I helped this old man, this gentleman in there.
Mr. BALL. You saw an old man?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. ARCE. Right in front of the Texas School Book Depository.

When Arce is asked about the timeframe concerning seeing the stranger by Joseph Ball he backs up his 1963 statement:

Mr. BALL. How long before the President went by?
Mr. ARCE. I don't know. I think it was about 10 minutes, some place around there, 15 minutes; I'm not too sure.

Now, between the first day statement he gave to the Dallas Police and his Warren Commission testimony he, along with a large proportion of the TSBD employees, was interviewed by the FBI. Arce story now changes and he allegedly tells the FBI that he saw the "stranger" 45 minutes before the assassination and he now describes further interactions with this man that are absent from his 11-22-63 statement:

"On the morning of 11-22-63 about 45 minutes before the arrival of the President's motorcade I met an elderly white man at the entrance of the building who asked me to direct him to a rest room. I helped this man up the steps of the Depository Building and showed him a public rest room."

http://www.aarclibra...H22_CE_1381.pdf



The Warren Commission has access to this FBI statement and they had the witness under oath sat in front of them. During his testimony the witness completely contradicted what was written in that FBI report concerning the time he saw this man and he was also reaffirming what he said in his 1963 statement.

Did they bring the FBI report up with him? No.
Did they question Arce about the discrepancy? No.
Did they ask him why he said one thing in November 1963, something completely different to the FBI in March 1964 and that he was now saying what he originally said when he was first interviewed? No.
Did they later contact the FBI and ask them what the hell was going on? No.

Not only did they not bring it up or question the witness about the big difference in timeframe but they actually used the contradictory information from the FBI document in the final Warren Commission Report. This was after the actual witness had sat in front of them and flat out told them something completely different from what they eventually wrote:

"Only one employee saw a stranger whom he described as a feeble individual who had to be helped up the front steps of the building. He went to a public restroom and left the building 5 minutes later, about 40 minutes before the assassination."

Absolutely unbelievable. Completely corrupt.

There are some major problems concerning this event and the manner in which the Warren Commission eventually wove it into their narrative. When Arce was first interviewed an hour or two after the assassination he mentions nothing about helping the stranger into the TSBD. He states in his affidavit that he saw the man in the building after he had eaten lunch and he saw the man leave. If this is true then it cannot have happened 40-45 minutes before the assassination because he and the others claimed they did not leave the sixth floor until 11:55 AM or 12:00 PM. If Arce helped the man inside the building then Arce himself had to be outside so this happening 40-45 minutes prior to the assassination is nonsense. Are the Warren Commission really claiming that Arce was outside the TSBD at 11:45 AM saw an old man after he'd eaten his lunch, helped him inside to use the lavatory, sat and ate another lunch, watched the old man leave, then went back upstairs to the sixth floor before making his way straight back down in the great elevator race to eat a third lunch and finally going outside to watch the motorcade? Because that's what would have had to have happened if we use a 45 minute timeframe whilst taking into account the rest of Arce's recollections.

Why all the BS? What were they hiding? Was all of this done to simply undermine Arnold Rowland or was something else happening?

What is interesting concerning Danny Arce and how his story was documented is the fact that his 11-22-63 handwritten statement that he produced for the Dallas Police is written across five pages and pages four and five are supplemental to the first three.

The vast majority of Arce's handwritten statement is contained on pages 1, 2 & 3. Pages 4 and 5 have been written separately to the other three. In the first three pages there is the story of Arce seeing the stranger in the building. Nowhere in sight on pages 1-3 is any mention of Lee Oswald. Pages 4 and 5 however are specifically about Oswald.

Page 4 states:

"There was another employee that I saw named Lee Oswald. He was on the first floor of the building when I saw him [inserted - at 8:00 am]. He is the same man I saw police bring into the Homicide Bureau about 2:00 PM."

Instinct tells me the 8:00 AM was inserted into the handwritten affidavit under duress. Without the 8:00 AM insert it reads like Arce last saw Oswald on the first floor. I believe that is why the next page was added.

Page 5 states and is written sideways with a doodle drawn in the top left corner:

"I also saw him on the 5th floor as we were leaving for lunch at 11:50 AM."

http://jfk.ci.dallas...01/0132-001.gif Page 1
http://jfk.ci.dallas...01/0132-002.gif Page 2
http://jfk.ci.dallas...01/0132-003.gif Page 3
http://jfk.ci.dallas...01/0132-004.gif Page 4
http://jfk.ci.dallas...01/0132-005.gif Page 5

According to the duties report of Detective W. E. Potts who took the statements of both Danny Arce and Jack Dougherty he didn't start speaking with either of the TSBD employees until after 2:00 PM on November 22. He finished with the statements at 2:40 PM. So, if the statement was taken in one sitting then the Dallas Police were specifically concentrating on Oswald with other witnesses as soon as Oswald arrived, under arrest, at City Hall.

Although I have spoken about the FBI statement taken from Arce on March 18, 1964 where the timeframe of seeing the "stranger" in the TSBD suddenly changed from 10 or 15 minutes before the assassination to 45 minutes before the assassination, Arce was in fact interviewed by the FBI on November 22nd, 1963. He was interviewed by SA's Robert Lish and Gaston Thompson. What did Arce have to say about the TSBD stranger he saw that he had, an hour and a half after the assassination, spoken to the Dallas Police about? According to the statement, Arce said nothing. Not a word.

http://www.maryferre...41&relPageId=29

Why is all of this important? I brought it up recently on a JFK Lancer thread that was discussing how conspirators would manage to keep Oswald inside the TSBD between 12:15-12:30 PM that afternoon. A couple of researchers were discussing the possibility of an Oswald contact being used inside the TSBD to ensure Oswald stayed inside the building and there was a debate as to how a stranger would get in without being noticed.

Well, for all intents and purposes, a stranger did get in. An old man got in. Or someone playing the part of an old man got in. Not only did a stranger get in but the Dallas Police did nothing to investigate it. They were only interested in Oswald as the assassin no sooner than when they first stepped foot inside City Hall with him. The FBI did nothing with the information the Dallas Police recorded in Arce's affidavit and there is nothing in their 11-22-63 statement that addresses the stranger.

When the FBI next got hold of Arce in March, 1964, Arce's story mysteriously changes and the the old man is being helped inside the building while Arce is supposed to be working. They never challenge Arce on the discrepancy.

When Arce appears before the Warren Commission he testifies that the stranger was seen 10 or 15 minutes before the assassination. The Commission ignores it and instead use the information in the March FBI interview.

Something stinks here. Not least the complete contradictions Arce has to come up with once his story has changed in the presence of the FBI to incorporate him assisting the old man inside the building to a "public rest room" that didn't exist. There were no public rest rooms in the TSBD. How did Arce see this guy and nobody else?

What is going on here and why did the Warren Commission see fit to lie about it in the final report? Were they simply trying to undermine Arnold Rowland by getting Arce to embellish his story to make the old guy appear completely benign?

Let's not forget that if Arce's original statement is true then we have a stranger in the TSBD at the exact same time the whereabouts of Oswald is not 100% nailed.

In 1978 Danny Arce left us with another jigsaw piece when he reviewed his original statements from the 1960's. On the HSCA document he completes he ticks the box that says "The statements I have read do not fully and/or accurately reflect my recollections of events. I would like to add the following:"

Arce then writes "The incident surrounding the elevator situation is not very clear. What I recall is the following: Before lunch period we went down on the East End Elevator. At that time Lee Oswald asked to ride with us. He came down in the elevator with us and we let him off on the 4th or 5th floor. Can't remember."

The amount of subterfuge, contradictions, falsehoods, changes in story, and outright lies told by Roy Truly, Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, Charles Givens, Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams, James Jarman, Jack Dougherty and Danny Arce are completely and utterly staggering. The more I look into this case and the more convinced I become that the assassination COULD NOT have happened the way that it DID HAPPEN without collusion from some of the TSBD employees. Some before the event and some after the event.

The stranger is in the building is at the exact time that Oswald is "missing." An employee said he saw the stranger in the building and he saw him leave in a black car 10 or 15 minutes before the assassination and Lee Bowers sees a man driving around and out of the railroad car park in a black car 10 minutes before the assassination with a "mike or telephone" up to his mouth.

EDIT: Arce's story embellishments actually started with the FBI on December 19th, 1963:

http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=340782

Edited by Lee Farley, 07 January 2013 - 09:24 PM.


#12 David Andrews

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 11:24 PM

How do we know for sure it was No. 1 ? :sun

#13 Thomas Graves

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:12 AM

In November 1963 Danny Arce was interviewed by the Dallas Police. Arce was one of the first individuals to be picked up outside the Texas School Book Depository and he was taken to the station to be interviewed. Therefore the DPD had the perfect opportunity to get the freshest of recollections from him.

In his first day statement Arce claims he saw a "real old man" in the TSBD after he had eaten his lunch. Arce and the other "floor layers" said they left the 6th floor at approximately 11:55 PM. This then puts the stranger in the TSBD about 15-20 minutes prior to the assassination. Arce mentions nothing about helping the stranger into the building. He simply says he saw him in the building and that he saw him leave prior to the motorcade arriving.

http://jfk.ci.dallas...28/2812-001.gif

When Danny Arce appeared before the Warren Commission the counsellor's taking his testimony were not proactive in wanting to to discuss this stranger. It was up to Arce to bring this event up:

Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?
Mr. ARCE. Back inside the building.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in there?
Mr. ARCE. Oh, about 15 minutes and they took us down to city hall to make statements out.
Mr. BALL. Then you made out your statement?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; to the Police Department.
Mr. BALL. Well, just 1 minute, let's see---
Mr. ARCE. I helped this old man, this gentleman in there.
Mr. BALL. You saw an old man?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. ARCE. Right in front of the Texas School Book Depository.

When Arce is asked about the timeframe concerning seeing the stranger by Joseph Ball he backs up his 1963 statement:

Mr. BALL. How long before the President went by?
Mr. ARCE. I don't know. I think it was about 10 minutes, some place around there, 15 minutes; I'm not too sure.

Now, between the first day statement he gave to the Dallas Police and his Warren Commission testimony he, along with a large proportion of the TSBD employees, was interviewed by the FBI. Arce story now changes and he allegedly tells the FBI that he saw the "stranger" 45 minutes before the assassination and he now describes further interactions with this man that are absent from his 11-22-63 statement:

"On the morning of 11-22-63 about 45 minutes before the arrival of the President's motorcade I met an elderly white man at the entrance of the building who asked me to direct him to a rest room. I helped this man up the steps of the Depository Building and showed him a public rest room."

http://www.aarclibra...H22_CE_1381.pdf



The Warren Commission has access to this FBI statement and they had the witness under oath sat in front of them. During his testimony the witness completely contradicted what was written in that FBI report concerning the time he saw this man and he was also reaffirming what he said in his 1963 statement.

Did they bring the FBI report up with him? No.
Did they question Arce about the discrepancy? No.
Did they ask him why he said one thing in November 1963, something completely different to the FBI in March 1964 and that he was now saying what he originally said when he was first interviewed? No.
Did they later contact the FBI and ask them what the hell was going on? No.

Not only did they not bring it up or question the witness about the big difference in timeframe but they actually used the contradictory information from the FBI document in the final Warren Commission Report. This was after the actual witness had sat in front of them and flat out told them something completely different from what they eventually wrote:

"Only one employee saw a stranger whom he described as a feeble individual who had to be helped up the front steps of the building. He went to a public restroom and left the building 5 minutes later, about 40 minutes before the assassination."

Absolutely unbelievable. Completely corrupt.

There are some major problems concerning this event and the manner in which the Warren Commission eventually wove it into their narrative. When Arce was first interviewed an hour or two after the assassination he mentions nothing about helping the stranger into the TSBD. He states in his affidavit that he saw the man in the building after he had eaten lunch and he saw the man leave. If this is true then it cannot have happened 40-45 minutes before the assassination because he and the others claimed they did not leave the sixth floor until 11:55 AM or 12:00 PM. If Arce helped the man inside the building then Arce himself had to be outside so this happening 40-45 minutes prior to the assassination is nonsense. Are the Warren Commission really claiming that Arce was outside the TSBD at 11:45 AM saw an old man after he'd eaten his lunch, helped him inside to use the lavatory, sat and ate another lunch, watched the old man leave, then went back upstairs to the sixth floor before making his way straight back down in the great elevator race to eat a third lunch and finally going outside to watch the motorcade? Because that's what would have had to have happened if we use a 45 minute timeframe whilst taking into account the rest of Arce's recollections.

Why all the BS? What were they hiding? Was all of this done to simply undermine Arnold Rowland or was something else happening?

What is interesting concerning Danny Arce and how his story was documented is the fact that his 11-22-63 handwritten statement that he produced for the Dallas Police is written across five pages and pages four and five are supplemental to the first three.

The vast majority of Arce's handwritten statement is contained on pages 1, 2 & 3. Pages 4 and 5 have been written separately to the other three. In the first three pages there is the story of Arce seeing the stranger in the building. Nowhere in sight on pages 1-3 is any mention of Lee Oswald. Pages 4 and 5 however are specifically about Oswald.

Page 4 states:

"There was another employee that I saw named Lee Oswald. He was on the first floor of the building when I saw him [inserted - at 8:00 am]. He is the same man I saw police bring into the Homicide Bureau about 2:00 PM."

Instinct tells me the 8:00 AM was inserted into the handwritten affidavit under duress. Without the 8:00 AM insert it reads like Arce last saw Oswald on the first floor. I believe that is why the next page was added.

Page 5 states and is written sideways with a doodle drawn in the top left corner:

"I also saw him on the 5th floor as we were leaving for lunch at 11:50 AM."

http://jfk.ci.dallas...01/0132-001.gif Page 1
http://jfk.ci.dallas...01/0132-002.gif Page 2
http://jfk.ci.dallas...01/0132-003.gif Page 3
http://jfk.ci.dallas...01/0132-004.gif Page 4
http://jfk.ci.dallas...01/0132-005.gif Page 5

According to the duties report of Detective W. E. Potts who took the statements of both Danny Arce and Jack Dougherty he didn't start speaking with either of the TSBD employees until after 2:00 PM on November 22. He finished with the statements at 2:40 PM. So, if the statement was taken in one sitting then the Dallas Police were specifically concentrating on Oswald with other witnesses as soon as Oswald arrived, under arrest, at City Hall.

Although I have spoken about the FBI statement taken from Arce on March 18, 1964 where the timeframe of seeing the "stranger" in the TSBD suddenly changed from 10 or 15 minutes before the assassination to 45 minutes before the assassination, Arce was in fact interviewed by the FBI on November 22nd, 1963. He was interviewed by SA's Robert Lish and Gaston Thompson. What did Arce have to say about the TSBD stranger he saw that he had, an hour and a half after the assassination, spoken to the Dallas Police about? According to the statement, Arce said nothing. Not a word.

http://www.maryferre...41&relPageId=29

Why is all of this important? I brought it up recently on a JFK Lancer thread that was discussing how conspirators would manage to keep Oswald inside the TSBD between 12:15-12:30 PM that afternoon. A couple of researchers were discussing the possibility of an Oswald contact being used inside the TSBD to ensure Oswald stayed inside the building and there was a debate as to how a stranger would get in without being noticed.

Well, for all intents and purposes, a stranger did get in. An old man got in. Or someone playing the part of an old man got in. Not only did a stranger get in but the Dallas Police did nothing to investigate it. They were only interested in Oswald as the assassin no sooner than when they first stepped foot inside City Hall with him. The FBI did nothing with the information the Dallas Police recorded in Arce's affidavit and there is nothing in their 11-22-63 statement that addresses the stranger.

When the FBI next got hold of Arce in March, 1964, Arce's story mysteriously changes and the the old man is being helped inside the building while Arce is supposed to be working. They never challenge Arce on the discrepancy.

When Arce appears before the Warren Commission he testifies that the stranger was seen 10 or 15 minutes before the assassination. The Commission ignores it and instead use the information in the March FBI interview.

Something stinks here. Not least the complete contradictions Arce has to come up with once his story has changed in the presence of the FBI to incorporate him assisting the old man inside the building to a "public rest room" that didn't exist. There were no public rest rooms in the TSBD. How did Arce see this guy and nobody else?

What is going on here and why did the Warren Commission see fit to lie about it in the final report? Were they simply trying to undermine Arnold Rowland by getting Arce to embellish his story to make the old guy appear completely benign?

Let's not forget that if Arce's original statement is true then we have a stranger in the TSBD at the exact same time the whereabouts of Oswald is not 100% nailed.

In 1978 Danny Arce left us with another jigsaw piece when he reviewed his original statements from the 1960's. On the HSCA document he completes he ticks the box that says "The statements I have read do not fully and/or accurately reflect my recollections of events. I would like to add the following:"

Arce then writes "The incident surrounding the elevator situation is not very clear. What I recall is the following: Before lunch period we went down on the East End Elevator. At that time Lee Oswald asked to ride with us. He came down in the elevator with us and we let him off on the 4th or 5th floor. Can't remember."

The amount of subterfuge, contradictions, falsehoods, changes in story, and outright lies told by Roy Truly, Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, Charles Givens, Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams, James Jarman, Jack Dougherty and Danny Arce are completely and utterly staggering. The more I look into this case and the more convinced I become that the assassination COULD NOT have happened the way that it DID HAPPEN without collusion from some of the TSBD employees. Some before the event and some after the event.

The stranger is in the building is at the exact time that Oswald is "missing." An employee said he saw the stranger in the building and he saw him leave in a black car 10 or 15 minutes before the assassination and Lee Bowers sees a man driving around and out of the railroad car park in a black car 10 minutes before the assassination with a "mike or telephone" up to his mouth.

EDIT: Arce's story embellishments actually started with the FBI on December 19th, 1963:

http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=340782


Maybe the decrepit old man was E Howard Hunt. He was said to have been a master of disguises...

--Tommy :sun

#14 Lee Farley

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:55 AM

I’m not going to sit here and try to guess who this “old man” was. Doing so is a completely futile exercise.

My point is very simple; the Warren Commission and the FBI lied about this event and it is another very blatant example of how they used information they had collected in a completely corrupt and unconscionable manner to suit their own purposes.

Danny Arce’s story changed when he was in the hands of the FBI. Either wittingly or unwittingly he changed the timeframe that he saw this stranger in the building to make it less problematic for the official story and he added information about helping this man inside to use a “public restroom.”

When the FBI recorded that Arce saw this man “45 minutes” before the assassination it was not an error or a typo or a misinterpretation. They interviewed Arce about this twice. He was interviewed by them on December 19th, 1963, and then again on March 18th, 1964. On both occasions Arce allegedly said he saw this man in the building 45 minutes before the assassination. In December ‘63 the FBI wrote “45 minutes” and in March ’64 they wrote “forty-five” minutes.

This is completely at odds with both Arce’s first day affidavit when he stated he saw the man in the building after lunch and his testimony where he sat and told Joseph Ball that he saw the stranger in the building 10-15 minutes before the assassination.

Joseph Ball had all of Arce’s statements. In fact the March, 1964, FBI interviews of all TSBD employees were conducted at the behest of Wesley Liebeler. Upon hearing Danny Arce under oath reaffirm his 11-22-63 statement that he saw the old man in the building 10-15 minutes before the assassination, did Joseph Ball say, “Hang on a minute there, Amigo. We have here a couple of interviews you gave to the FBI in December of last year and one from March this year where you say something completely different. What going on here, friend? Did you tell the FBI you saw this man 45 minutes before the assassination?”

Hoever, Counselor Ball thought nothing of pulling out Jack Dougherty’s FBI statement when he was giving his testimony the day after Arce had given his:

Mr. BALL - When you talked to the FBI men, I've got a statement here dated the 19th of December 1963, a statement from Special Agent William O. Johnson, and he reports that you told him that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald at approximately 8 a.m. when he, Oswald, arrived.
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - That you saw Oswald again at approximately 11 a.m. on the sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - But you didn't see him again after that, is that your testimony?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Is that the truth?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.

The FBI and the Warren Commission were once again hiding something that I believe was very important.

#15 Greg Wagner

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:20 PM

Two interesting Arce photo comparisons, courtesy of James Richards' collection.

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