Jump to content


Spartacus

The (Second?) Rifle


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 David Boylan

David Boylan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 269 posts

Posted 25 May 2004 - 03:51 PM

I consider this one of the most overlooked topics for further research.

1. Where was this rifle found?

2. How did the FBI get Roy Payne's finger prints off it so quickly?

3. Whatever happened to any followup reports?

If anyone has any additional info on this, I'd love to see it.

Here's two affidavits. One by Hathcock, the other by Payne.

DOC #003267

AFFIDAVIT OF RICHARD HATHCOCK

My name is Richard Hathcock. I once owned and operated Allied International Detective Agency. At the time that we're interest in, my offices were at 6715 Hollywood Boulevard in the Outpost Building. About two months before the John Kennedy assassination in Dallas, two men came to see me in my office. One was Jerry Patrick Hemming, who was using the name of Jerry Patrick. The other man was Lorenzo Hall, who like to called Skip Hall, whose real name was Pacillio, which I understand is a Cuban name. These men came to see me one afternoon, stating that they had heard of me because of my many years of undercover investigation of communism on the state college campuses here when I worked for the Hearst chain, and some other activities, anti-communist activities that I had been involved in. They were here, they told me, to raise money with which to buy medicines and equipment, military hardware for a planned invasion of Cuba. That they were going to train troops in Guatemala, which they actually did later. They told me that they were dead broke, and that they were going to be here for two or three weeks, they had some other contacts that they wanted to see, raise money, but meantime they needed a hundred dollars. They wanted to borrow the hundred dollars, and what they had for security was a set of golf clubs and a rifle which was a 30 caliber Johnson, modified to sem-automatic operation, which I believe held nine rounds, and also was equipped with a 30 power Bushnell variable scope. I gave them the hundred dollars, they left the golf clubs and the rifle. For several weeks after that, I saw both men frequently, then my understanding was that Jerry Patrick returned to Miami to set things in operation down there for the planned invasion of Cuba. What they had planned essentially was to blow up some oil storage tanks on the west coast. Lorenzo Hall stayed here, and was in the private eye office very often, almost every day. He told me that both he and Patrick had originally been in Castro's army when they believed that he was really trying to free Cuba from Batista, that they had fought, fought hard, helped to put Castro in power, found out that he was a communist, had no interest in the poeple, and they turned on Castro with the result that both were imprisoned, and sentenced to be shot. Both, through manipulations and through friends managed to escape and get to this country. They showed me lots of photos, gave me documents, and I do believe what they told me about those things. Eventually, as I say, Patrick went back to Miami, and I did not see him after that. Shortly before the assa ssination, if memory serves me correctly, it was no more that ten days before the assassination, Skip Hall and a big, fat Mexican whom I'd never seen before, and whose name I don't recall at this time, but I'm sure the FBI has it, came to see me, told me that they were going to Dallas to pick up some medicines and some other material, they wanted to redeem the rifle. They gave me $50, told me to keep the golf clubs, I got a note signed by Skip Hall that he had picked up the rifle, which I later gave to Jerry Crow, of the FBI. What happened to that rifle, I don't know. Jim Garrison showed me a photo at one time, an 8X10 enlargement, which he said was made by a Dallas Morning News photographer seconds after the killing in Dallas. The photo showed a Dallas detective holding the rifle which was picked up on Dealey Plaza. The rifle looked to me exactly like the one I'd had in my office. I have combed the Warren report stem to stern. I find no mention of that rifle which was picked up on Dealey Plaza. I also found no mention of antoerh rifle found on the second floor of the book depository building. Skip Hall later told me that he had turned that rifle over a doctor friend of his in Miami, Florida. Jerry Patrick told me later that that was a damn lie, that he talked to Hall, and as far as he could find out that was a lie about where the rifle was. But he told me that he had never recovered the rifle. The rifle was in my office all those weeks, and one of the gentlemen who worked with me in the detective business, Roy Payne, who is a gun expert and a gun nut, assembeled and disassembled and reassembled that rifle on numerous occasions. And I'm sure that Mr Payne can tell you a great deal more about the rifle than I can.. The day after John Kennedy was killed in Dallas, I received a phone call from Jerry Crow, an FBI agent here in Los Angeles, who asked if I had an agent working for me who was named Pay Payne, and I said yes. Jerry wanted to know if he could come by the office and see me and Mr Payne, and we arranged for that meeting. It's my opinion that the reason he wanted to see Mr Payne was because Payne's fingerprints undoubtly were all over that rifle from his having handled it many times. It's also my opinion that, unless that particular rifle had been found or in some way involved in this whole thing, that the FBI would have no interest init. And I think that we'd better let Mr Payne pick it up from here.

Declare under penalty of perjury that the above three-page affidavit true and correct to the best of my belief and knowledge.

Signed - Richard Hatcock

State of California
County of Los Angeles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DOC # 003264

AFFIDAVIT OF LEROY BARTON PAYNE

My name is Leroy Barton Payne. I was a co-partner, an agent for Allied International Detectives with Dick Hathcock. Our offices at the time of this occurrence were at 6715 Hollywood Boulevard in the outpost building. I have heard and have listened to Mr Hathcock make his statement and I agree with him in every aspect of his statement, and I will, to the best of my recollection, account my experiences with Jerry Patrick and Lorenzo Pacillio, alias Skip Hall or Lorenzo Hall. I first met them when they came into the office on, in the outpost building, and in the description of these two gentlemen, Jerry Patrick was tall, blond, wearing jump boots and the trousers tucked into the top, very much a Joe Palooka type. Skip Hall professed to be an ex-Marine, I believe officer, I'm not sure, at least this is what he told us, small, wiry, dark hair, olive complexion he at one time introduced us to his wife. I do not recall what her name was. They lived in an apartment in, I believe, in Monterey Park, somewhere near the state college campus. They were out here on a speaking and fund raising campaign for going back to Cuba, and as I remember, they were out gathering various types of military accouterments, weapons, medicines, so on and so forth. How they obtained these weapons was not part of any information that was given to either Mr Hathcock or myself. Though they did tell me, or rather Lorenzo Hall did tell me that he had his closet in his apartment full of weapons, and that he was afraid that the FBI was going to come in there and raid the place and take him along, and they were going to have to smuggle them out. And they were getting ready to go to, to go back to Cuba. He drew us a map on an inlet on the shore of south of Havana or near Havana that was the oil storage reservoir and tank farm. It showed on this map the tank farm and several storage docks, and what they had planned on doing was taking a boat to Kingston, Jamaica, refueling, and then going in as frogmen to take satchel charges of plastic explosives and set them on the storage tank farm and the dock area and destroy this to cripple Cuba by getting rid of all of the fuel, oil, gasoline, etc., that was presently sotred for Castro. About I would say, ten days, fifteen days, maybe a month, somewhere along in there, prior to President Kennedy's assassination, here I am fuzzy on the exact period. But Lorenzo Hall and a fat, Mexican fellow came in and redeemed the rifle. Now this rifle I had been told that it would, that it had gone on several Cuban raids in the past, and knowing that it is very easy to modify a weapon such as this to make it full automatic, and that it did have nine rounds in the chamber, nine rounds in the weapon and one in the chamber, making it ten rounds that could be fired automactically, I took the weapon and test fired it, and then pulled it apart to make sure that it had not been tampered with. It had not and was a straight semi-automatic weapon. It was a Johnson semi-automatic 30.06, it had a 30 power variable Bushnell scope, very much like a telephone lens, on a camrea. I would say that this weapon properly sighted in would put a hole in a dime at 500 yards. The bullets would be fired as fast as one could pull the trigger. Ten seconds, ten rounds, or les. They picked this weapon up and signed a note that they had picked it up as I was present in the office when these two gentlemen were there to pick the weapon up. Approximately the next day or two, they left for Miami, and I made the statement to this Lorenzo Hall that, well, we'll be reading about you in the paper. Well, Dick and I went about our business as normal as far as the agency was concerned and didn't really think about them except to say, well, we hadn't heard anything. Five days prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, on a Monday, Mr Patrick, excuse me, Mr Hall, was in Hollywood, California, in front of out building, talking with Mr Hathcock, and I stopped and talked to them, and of course I said, well, why don't you come over and let's go get a cup of coffee, and tell us what happened, and he said, well, no he I've got to make the plane for Dallas. The situation with Mr Pacillio or Mr Hall is that he stated to me when I asked him, well, you know, what happened during the situation we didn't hear anything. He said that the CIA confiscated and arrested everybody at the boat in Miami, and I asked him at the time why didn't he get himself arrested also, and he said, well, he was on the dock and could not, be connected with tthe situation. They didn't have any evidence against him. I'm going to make an assumption now, or a realtively educated assumption. The CIA is not an arrestive body, nor are they an internal United States intelligence agency functional agency. This I did not recall, it just didn't make any sense to me until later. Of course Friday, I believe, November 22, was the assassination that Friday was the assassination at noon in Los Angeles, out time, and the next day I received a telephone call from my business partner Dick Hathcock, telling me that there was a gentleman coming into the office that wanted to talke to us, that gentleman was a special agent of the FBI, a Jerry Crow, who is stall presently with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and at the Los Angeles field Office. Mr Crow came in and I opened the door for him and he showed me his identificaiton, he had a big bundle of papers with him and a large, in a large manilla envelope, and he introduced himself, and I said, "Hi, my name is Roy Payne, come in." I introduced him to Mr Hathcock, my partner, and Mrs Hathcock was there also, and he put his bundle down on the chair in front of the desk and took some papers out and said, "I would like to ask some questions about Skip Hall and Roy Payne," and I said, well, "I'm Roy Payne, why don't you ask me whatever you want to ask." He seeemed rather surprised that I was there. At least that was the impression that I got. We discussed the situation about what had occurred and what has gone on with Jerry Patrick Hemming and SKip Hall, Lorenzo Pacillio, and so on, then I did not see him
for quite some time after that. I did, however, find that the FBI, or
someone, was, I can only make assumption, was following me and did tail me for some months after that. I had an ex-brother-in-law who was, and I am not correct with this, he is deceased now, and his was Harvey Berkey, who was the assistant agent in charge of the local field office for the FBI here. In asking or making an attempt to ask Harvey what the heck was going on, Harvey refused to talk to me, and I could not gain entrance to his house, he would not answer the door, nor would his wife nor his children. There was on one occasion, I did run into Harvey Berkey outside of my office with Mr Hathcock, and he did not want to talk to me at all and excused himself and said he had to go. I did, within the week after the assassination of the President, have occasion to go to Palm Springs, I believe it was on a Thursday, and I stayed at a small motel upon entering the town, and about three o'clock in the morning had occasion to see two gentlemen go through my vehicle pretty thoroughly, and they had keys to enter and to go through my car, they went through the glove compartment, I had had evidence prior to that that my vehicle had been entered and searched as well as out offices, which then had been moved to, Allied Detectives moved to 6605 Hollywood Boulevard, on the third floor. We had Suite 310, which covered several rooms, adn we did have a system to show whether our offices had been entered and the file had been searched several times. We feel, or felt that out telephone, both at home, the answering service for the office, and both our
homes had been tapped. This went on for several months. The next night,
Saturday, after the assassination, I had to drive to Santa Maria and was there overnight. There were three vehicles that followed my car up Pacific Coast Highway all the way up to Santa Maria and then again picked me up the next day when I went through several of the small towns in the rural area and up to Highway 99, which is now I-5, and then comeing back the Ridge Route. The same subject vehicles that followed me the next day after the assassination were the same vehicles that I saw in Palm Springs for the a week later, along with the same gentlemen, that were in them. Like I say, this went on for quite some time, two to three months after the assassination. One afternoon, about ten days or two weeks after the assassination, about 4:30 in the afternoon, I received a telephone call at the office from Lorenzo Hall, or Lorenzo Pacillio. I said, "Hey buddy, you better have a lot of witnesses because you were in Dallas at the time of the
assassination,: and he said, "I've got witnesses to prove that I was right in the middle of the lobby of the Hilton Hotel, and a hundred people know I was there, and I was nowhere near where Kennedy was assassinated." When the District Attorney of New Orleans, Jim Garrison, came to California with an order or request for extradition of two gentlemen, one gentleman was from Burbank, the other gentleman was Skip Hall, or Lorenzo Pacillio, the same man, in a newspaper statement that Mr Hall or Mr Pacillo had made, he stated that he had never been in the state of Texas, yet he had told me that he had gone to Texas, that he was leaving that Monday prior to the assassination to go to Dallas, and that he has a hundred witnesses in a hotel to show that he had been in Dallas, Texas, but was nowhere near the assassination site. Let's see here. I have never heard from again this Lorenzo Pacillio, or Lorenzo Hall, he had never made any attempt to contact me or call me, he did tell me at the time of this one phone call, that several attempts had been made on his life, that his car had been boobed once or twice, and it had been blown up. He said someone else who had started the vehicle had been blown up with it. I have no direct knowledge that there was an automobile bombing. I have never pursued the situation. I did on one occasion go and drive out to visit with Jerry Patrick Hemming, who was living somewhere off the San Berardino Freeway, Monterey Park, Montebello, in that specfic area. He discussed with me at the time about turning over the rifle to them and he didn't like the idea that the rifle went down there, since he felt it was his rifle and the golf clubs that were also hocked at that time the original meeting were Lorenzo Pacillio;s, and that the rifle was his, and other than that particular conversation, I have never had any further contact Jerry Patrick, or as I say, no further contact at all with Lorenzo Hall. I understood that he had been living in central California for some period of time, and in a compuound type of area, and operated a bar or a cocktail lounge or a beer bar or tavern in the downtown area. Then I understood later from Dick Hathcock that he is now back down here in Southern California and is living somewhere out in the Monterey Park Montebello area and has been in and out of the hospital once or twice, but other that that I have no direct knowledge to bring situations up to date.

I declare under penalty of perjury that the above eight-page affidavit is true and correct to the best of my belief and knowledge.

signed LEROY BARTON PAYNE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Extracted from http://www.cuban-exi...50/doc0046.html


It was at Clint Wheat’s house that Hall, Howard, and “Juarito” a.k.a. Celio Castro Alba, picked up a trailer of weapons and a large supply of medical supplies to bring to Miami for anti-Castro activities. According to Howard the weapons consisted of a “. 30 caliber, there was a scope weapon, and there was M-1s, standard M-1 Girands an M-14, modified, strictly semi...” Some of these weapons were supplied by Ergiaga Arms Company owned by Juan Ergiaga, the former top arms ordinance man for Fidel Castro. The trailer carrying these weapons was left at Lester Logue’s house in Dallas on October 10, 1963. Logue, an oil geologist, was a friend of Hall’s. Hall admitted that it was in Logue’s office that he was offered fifty thousand dollars to assassinate JFK but he declined. He added that Lester Logue had nothing to do with the offer and left the room after the offer was made.

Hall and William Seymour traveled from Miami the following week to retrieve the trailer of weapons and medical supplies. It was on this return trip that Hall and Seymour were arrested for drug possession — a bottle of Dexedrine. While in custody, Hall was questioned by an FBI agent whom he identified as “Hostel or something”, a Military Intelligence agent, and a “CIA guy.” The “CIA guy” was probably ATF Agent Frank Ellsworth who was working closely with FBI agent James Hosty and Military Intelligence agent Ed Coyle on a gun smuggling case. He claimed that the MI Agent attempted to recruit him. Hall remained in jail for two days before being released. Hall had called Dr. Robert Morris who in turn called Lester Logue. Logue secured an attorney for Hall.

#2 Lee Forman

Lee Forman

    Super Member

  • JFK
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,047 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New York

Posted 25 May 2004 - 06:35 PM

Hello DBoylan.

Can you post a photo of the weapon?

From what I gathered, the initial report was that a Mauser has been found. Then there were reports of a Winchester, and photos of a British Enfield. There were a number of Mannlicher-Carcanos.

From Crossfire, by Jim Marrs, page 439, "The rifle reportedly belonging to Oswald...found behind some boxes on the 6th floor of the Depository was initially described as a 7.65 German Mauser. It was initially described thusly by Deputy Sheriff E.L. Boone, discover of the rifle, in his report of that day."

"Boone's report is supported by that of Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman. Both lawmen reportedly had more than an average knowledge of weapons."

"...Weitzman wrot in his report: ...the rifle was a 7.65 Mauser bolt action equipped with a 4/18 scope, a thick leather brownish-black sling on it. The rifle was found between some boxes near the stairway. The time the rifle was found was 1:22pm."

"This account was confirmed by Deputy Craig, who told Texas researchers he actually saw the work Mauser stamped on the weapon's receiver."

I have read that the rifle was recovered on the 6th floor, close to the stairs. I have also read that the rifle was recovered from the 4th or 5th floor. I have also read that a rifle was recovered from the roof.

More from Marrs, page 440.

"Even the CIA had doubts as to the true identity of the assassination rifle. Five days after the assassination, in an internal report transmitted from Italy to Langley headquarters, CIA officials noted tht two different kinds of Italian-made carbines were being identified as the single murder weapon. The CIA document stated: "The weapon which appears to have been employed in this criminal attack is a Model 91 rifle, 7.35 caliber, 1938 modification....The description of a 'Mannlicher-Carcano' rifle in the Italian and foreign press is in error."

From "Murder in Dealey Plaza," James Fetzer, 2003, page 63:

"The possibility that the suspect may be using a Winchester rifle is broadcast on Police Band, Channel 2)."

From "Murder in Dealey Plaza," James Fetzer, 2003, page 82:

"...ATF agent Frank Ellsworth, who participates in the second search of the book depository conducted after 1:30pm on this date, according to a Secret Service document, confirms the Mannlicher-Carcano was found by a DPD detective on the 4th or 5th floor or that building, 'not on the same floor as the cartridges.'"

From "Murder in Dealey Plaza," James Fetzer, 2003, page 94:

"Also, about this time [2:00pm] - and according to films taken by what is now known as The Dallas Cinema Associates - another rifle is shown being brought down the east-side fire escape of the TSBD. Lieutenant Carl Day has already brought the Oswald rifle outside at 1:30pm; there are photographs of Day quickly carrying this rifle away, holding it by it's strap. In the DCA film, the policeman holds the rifle up as a crowd gathers to inspect it. This particular rifle has a fairly short stock, a heavy barrel, and a different action from the so-called Oswald rifle. Questioned about the rifle in 1967, authorities said it was a security man's rifle accidentally left there. (The Dalla Police all carried shotguns. The sheriff's office had rifles, but they were of American manufacture. The rifle in the DCA photographs appears to be a Brithish Enfield rifle.)"

Does anyone have these photos available to post?

One further point to note, aside from the clip, the shells themselves, the sites, the strap, the lack of oil on the bag, the length and testimony of Bueller, etc, is that fact that the official Mannlicher Carcano advertisement in the Rifle magazine that LHO saw the gun advertised was swapped, as the one Oswald allegedly ordered was of a different length than the one 'found.' I often wonder whether Oswald ever 'dug up' the one purportedly using in the General Walker incident. Supposedly he had buried it.

Lastly, In a 'Dealey plaza Visitor's Guide,' printed by James Felder, who stations himself on Elm street, there is an interesting analysis by Jack White which I have never seen elsewhere. It consists of 3 separate and distinct photos of the Mannlicher-Carcano.

1. Dallas Police Department photo.
2. National Archives
3. Warren Report

They are three different weapons, as noted by White in a comparison of size of the stock, scope, etc - Maybe Jack White can elaborate on that end.

- lee

#3 James Richards

James Richards

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,288 posts
  • Location:The Gold Coast, Australia

Posted 25 May 2004 - 10:53 PM

Hi David,

Thanks for posting that.

I agree that the whole Loran Hall story in LA with Hathcock is very interesting and might be a vital piece of the assassination puzzle. Given Hall's comments that, he was trying to raise money, wanted an invasion of Cuba, was going to Dallas, is highly suggestive indeed.

WE know that Hall was not highly thought of amongst the No Name Key guys and was just tolerated by most. We know he associated with Manuel Aguilar who most considered to be a double agent. Remember the Tom Dunkin photos? Hall was the only one photographed with Aguilar.

It does make one wonder if Hall was being handled. Add the Odio incident (supposedly in the company of Oswald) which he first admits to and then retracts and Skip is looking vulnerable.

I guess we can only speculate what his role potentially was. If I was a betting man, and I am, I would put a lazy fifty on Hall being the one Oswald was going to meet at the Texas Theater.

Loran Hall and Manuel Aguilar attached below.

James

#4 Bernice Moore

Bernice Moore

    Super Member

  • JFK
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,932 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Canada

Posted 25 May 2004 - 11:47 PM

Lee:
Here is a photo of the three rifles.......

#5 Bernice Moore

Bernice Moore

    Super Member

  • JFK
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,932 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Canada

Posted 25 May 2004 - 11:55 PM

Here's a good photo of the Rifle with Day.

For some info on the rifles...and other research go to.....

http://www.jfkresear...eehomepage.com/

Edited by Bernice Moore, 26 May 2004 - 12:24 AM.


#6 Antti Hynonen

Antti Hynonen

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 955 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Helsinki, Finland
  • Interests:JFK assassination debate

Posted 26 May 2004 - 08:49 AM

Now, this regarding the rifles may be pretty evident to all...
...however, I offer my opinion and believe me, I'm not a rifle expert.

A quick look at the three rifles posted by Bernice and comparing them to the rifle carried out by Lt. Day, I would say that Day is carying the "Archives" rifle. The scope and bolt sticking out would support this.

According to the photos available definitely not the DPD rifle. I wonder how this ties in with the rifle theories and photos of the other rifles around.

Antti

#7 David Boylan

David Boylan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 269 posts

Posted 26 May 2004 - 01:34 PM

Lee,

Maybe James has a picture of Gerry with his rifle.

James,

Hall also associated with Enrique Molina Rivera. Molina was supposedly the third person on the plane with Rorke and Sullivan when it disappeared.

Hall knew of Oswald and admitted to going to "harrass" him with a Cuban friend, most likely Nico Crespi. There are some indications that Crespi was affiliated with JURE.

Hall's early connections where with the far right. He was a member of the JBS and would give speeches to various rightist groups, especially if they had money. It was Jose Norman of the American Committee to Free Cuba that gave the check to Hall to retrieve the rifle. Hall ran Guy Gabaldon's campaign. Reportedly, Gabaldon had an apartment in Mexico City.

A likely senario as to why Hall, Howard and "Juarito" left the trailor of rifles in Dallas (why not just continue on to Miami?) was to have them converted to full automatic. Who was doing this at this time and who came to the attention of Hosty(FBI), Ellsworth (ATF) and Coyle (MI) shorlty after Hall's return visit to Dallas and his subsequent arrest? John Mason. What was Hall doing? Getting weapons for an invasion of Cuba. What was Msson selling besides weapons? Information about an invasion of Cuba scheduled for the end of November.

Dave

#8 James Richards

James Richards

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,288 posts
  • Location:The Gold Coast, Australia

Posted 27 May 2004 - 12:09 AM

Hi David,

Thanks for that, very interesting indeed. I believe you are spot on with Crespi and I think there is little doubt he was connected to JURE. I also think you are correct when it comes to Masen.

War hero Gabaldon is a fascinating character. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Billy Seymour come on board the anti-Castro crusade after a speech Gabaldon gave in Arizona in early 1962? I'm a bit fuzzy about that and for the moment can't locate the details in my poorly organized notes.

I have a few images of Gerry Hemming with rifles but none of them being with the Johnson. Anyway, below is an image of some of the weaponry used on No Name Key.

James

#9 James Richards

James Richards

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,288 posts
  • Location:The Gold Coast, Australia

Posted 27 May 2004 - 01:13 AM

While we are the subject of Loran Hall, I thought I would take this opportunity to post a never before published photograph of the man in question. I've heard of people sleeping with a gun under their pillow but this is taking the relationship to extremes. :hotorwot

James

#10 James Richards

James Richards

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,288 posts
  • Location:The Gold Coast, Australia

Posted 27 May 2004 - 07:56 AM

According to the photos available definitely not the DPD rifle. I wonder how this ties in with the rifle theories and photos of the other rifles around.

Hi Antti,

Here is a shot of the DPD rifle.

Interesting side note to this photograph is the identikit image on the far right. Who on earth is that supposed to be of?

James

#11 David Boylan

David Boylan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 269 posts

Posted 27 May 2004 - 02:04 PM

James,

I'm not sure about Seymour's reason for joining up with Hall but that sounds likely.

Nice picture of Hall. Is that a smile on his face or is he just happy..... :hotorwot

"...you just don't sit down and say, well, let's have an assassiantion - it takes a sequence of things to happen." --Loran Hall to Howard Weisberg

Dave

#12 Lee Forman

Lee Forman

    Super Member

  • JFK
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,047 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New York

Posted 28 May 2004 - 04:52 AM

For what it's worth, I noted that the Johnson is pretty unique looking. This is the 1941 version, but there isn't much difference in the later model.

Specifications for the US Rifle, Johnson Model 1941

Caliber: .30
Cartridge: 30-06 or 7mm
Length: 45.87 inches
Unloaded Weight: 9.5 pounds
Barrel: 22 inches
Rifling: 4 grooves, right hand twist
Magazine: 10 rounds rotary (fixed)
Muzzle Velocity: 2,770 fps
Operation: Recoil, semi-automatic
Effective Range: N/A

Sights:
Post aperture with protective ears
Front-blade w/protecting ears
Rear- Aperture

Manufacturers:
Taft-Pierce Company, Woonsocket, Rhode Island
Marlin Firearms, New Haven, Connecticut
Johnson Automatics Incorporated, Cranston, Rhode Island

#13 James Richards

James Richards

    Super Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,288 posts
  • Location:The Gold Coast, Australia

Posted 28 May 2004 - 07:01 AM

Hi Lee,

Thanks for the image. The Johnson was a very good rifle. Along with the M1 Garand, I have noticed that it was a favored weapon of the militant exiles.

Below is a shot of Virgilio Gonzalez (foreground) using a Johnson. This photograph was taken at one of the sniper camps in 1963. Gonzalez was a member of the Bayo-Pawley mission and went on to fame and fortune a decade later as one of the Watergate burglars.

James

Edited by James Richards, 28 May 2004 - 07:02 AM.


#14 Lee Forman

Lee Forman

    Super Member

  • JFK
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,047 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New York

Posted 28 May 2004 - 05:47 PM

http://www.guardian....,206574,00.html

Alistair Cooke
Friday November 22, 1963

"In an upper room, whose open window commanded the route of the Presidential motorcade, the Servicemen found the remains of a fried chicken and a British .303 rifle with a telescopic sight. Alongside it lay three empty cartridges. Later, the police said they had also discovered a German Mauser gun."

I don't mean for this to be as ironic / humorous as it appears - I just cut and paste.

http://www.african-h...m/303_rifle.htm

"The comb of the .303 rifle butt is too low anyhow, but adding a scope greatly magnifies this deficiency. If you wish to rapidly reload, don’t bother your head about trying to find spare magazines - the Lee was not meant to work this way, and spare mags have a habit of shedding their rounds anyhow. Rustle up a couple of clips, and all will be well. You will probably be surprised how fast a Lee can be reloaded with a clip. So were the German infantry in 1914. I have frequently wished that firearms could talk - the next time you handle an old, common-or- garden Lee-Enfield, I will be surprised if you do not find yourself wishing this as well, as you try and imagine where this venerable old artifact has been, who has held it and what it has done."

http://www.reloadben...idges/303b.html

"Even though the .303 British was once available in the Winchester Model 1895 lever action rifle, few American hunters had ever heard of it until dozens of foreign governments dumped their obsolete military rifles into the U.S market during the 1950's and 1960's. At that time, Lee-Enfield rifles brought as much as $24.95 on the war surplus market, which was most tempting to the chap trying to squeeze a deer rifle into a growing family's budget. Ballistically, the .303 British is quite similar to the .30-40 Krag."

Multiple models of a .303, so I'm posting the one that was specifically developed for sniping.

- lee

#15 Chris Newton

Chris Newton

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 336 posts
  • Location:Florida, USA
  • Interests:JFK Assassination - Theory &amp; Research<br>Military History<br>Computer Science<br>Photography

Posted 28 May 2004 - 06:53 PM

A little off topic but I think the American "standard" for Sniper rifles is/was the M1903 which has recently seen service in Afghanistan. If I were a "real" marine sniper I'd pick a real rifle not a "carbine" such as the Marcano. I happen to own a Springfield and it's an accurate weapon.

From a military standpoint the sniper nest in the TSBD was a fiasco. My top 10 reasons:

1) The sight was not zeroed to the weapon (I'm shocked that this detail didn't bring the LHO theory to a crashing halt)
2) There was no evidence that the gun had been cleaned and no cleaning kit was ever found in anyone's posession. C'mon, please - the sniper of the century didn't clean his weapon?
3) A "real" sniper would never poke his (or her - sorry ladies) weapon out the window. That's like saying "Hi! I'm up here!".
4) The sniper only loaded four rounds into a clip which holds five and that was all he needed.
5) The sniper took the time to hide the weapon but didn't bother to pick up the two (or three depending on whose statement you read) rounds laying just within reach and in plain sight.
6) There's plenty of evidence that the original carcano is not the carcano in the archives even though both share the same serial number. Gotcha JEH you cross-dressing silly man!
7) Retired Marine Gunnery Sargeant, Carlos Hathcock, the greatest sniper in US History (after LHO of course), tried to duplicate Oswald's shots with a team of snipers and was unsuccessful.
8) The Carcano is a less than reliable carbine not a high powered rifle. A carbine has a smaller sight radius and is less accurate than a rifle and has a significantly lower velocity. Marines in WW2 complained about the stopping power of carbines. A good choice?
9) There was a large tree in the way of the southwest window on the sixth floor. (not so most of the time from the southeast window).
10) Witnesses identified the man in the southwest sixth floor corner window as a negro.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users