Did Oswald murder Tippit.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Earlene Roberts

Lawyer: "Where was it parked?"

Roberts; "It was parked in front of the house...directly in front of my house."

Lawyer; "where was Oswald when this happened?"

Roberts; "In his room.."

Lawyer; "Were there two uniformed policemen in the car?"

Roberts; "Oh yes.."

Lawyer; "And one of the officers sounded the horn?"

Roberts; "Just kind of..tit-tit--twice"

Filmed interview with Acquilla Clemons

Interviewer; "was there another man there?"

Clemons;" Yes ther was one, other side of the street. Al I know is he tells him to go on"

Itvr; "Mrs Clemons, the man who had the gun, did he make any motion at all to the other man across the street?"

Clemons; "No more than to tell him to go."

Itvr; "He waved his hand and said go on?"

Clemons;"Yes, said, Go on."

Frank Wright in interview.

Wright;"I was the first person out, and caught sight of Tippit in time to see him roll over once and then lie still." I saw a man standing in front of the car(Tippits) He was looking toward the man on the ground, the man who was standing in front of him(Tippit) was about medium height. He had on a LONG COAT, it ended just above his hands(?)I didnt see any gun. he ran around on the passenger side of the police car, he ran as fast as he could go, and GOT INTO HIS CAR, the car was about 1950-1951, maybe a Plymouth. He got in that car and drove away as fast as he could. I know what I saw, nothing in the world is going to change my opinion."

See also statements of, T F Bewley, Domingo Benavides, William Scoggins, Jim Burt

I know that this topic has been discussed here many times before, but usually as a sidebar to another thread. Thought I would give it one of its own. For the record I think its entirely possible that Oswald did shoot tippit, or was present when the shooting took place. It seems to me that the minute Baker, and Truely confront him the rabbit starts his crazy, zig-zag run, with the DPD proding him on to the Texas theater. Baker-Roberts Police car-tippit-the arresting Officers.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

According to the record, Marrion Baker upon hearing the shots believe they come fom an upper floor of the B/D. He drives straight to the biulding, and rushes up the stairs joined by the building super who is in the doorway, and hurries up the steps to the second floor, where he catches a glimpse of someone through a glass window and challenges him to "come here" gun in hand he is about to start questioning him when Truly arrives and identifies Oswald as an employee. Question, is there any evidence that anyone else in the biulding was challanged by Baker in this aggresive way, or had he, by shear luck, picked on the lone assassin..What ever, this incident seems to have got Oswalds motor running, and he goes from a calm, Coke drinking employee, to a fugative on the run.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Later, when Baker writes up his statement he says that he "saw a man in the lunchroom DRINKING A COKE." he later crosses out the words "drinking a coke"Later Police chief Curry announces that Oswald was seen by Baker, and Truly CARRYING A COKE Yet both Baker and Truly end up claiming that Oswald had nothing in his hand when approached. (Oswald himself told homicide detectives he was "drinking a coca-cola when the officer came in") The importance of all this is if Oswald had purchased, and begun consuming his drink the known time frame is blown to hell and back...

[Duke Lane]

According to the record, Marrion Baker upon hearing the shots believe they come fom an upper floor of the B/D. He drives straight to the biulding, and rushes up the stairs joined by the building super Roy Truly who is in the doorway, and hurries up the steps to the second floor, where he catches a glimpse of someone through a glass window and challenges him to "come here" gun in hand he is about to start questioning him when Truly arrives and identifies Oswald as an employee. Question, is there any evidence that anyone else in the biulding was challanged by Baker in this aggresive way, or had he, by shear luck, picked on the lone assassin..What ever, this incident seems to have got Oswalds motor running, and he goes from a calm, Coke drinking employee, to a fugative on the run.

Just a couple of minor corrections above. There is also the fact interspersed among these others that Truly and Baker (T& first go to the elevator shafts at the rear of the first (ground) floor, find that the elevators aren't there, look up and see the bottoms of both elevators at the fifth floor, and yell for someone to send one down, which doesn't happen. That is when T&B start up the stairs.

After the encounter with LHO, they continue upstairs to the fifth floor where they find one elevator, the other one having gone down while they were "creating a commotion" and making a lot of noise running up the stairs. Truly speculates that the person who rode down - without being seen or heard by either T or B - must have been Jack Dougherty, who also testified to having done exactly that, albeit without having heard his boss yell up to him to send an elevator down.

B&T then board the elevator and go up to the seventh floor, bypassing the sixth, and searching around upstairs before coming down again to the sixth, then again go onto the elevator and down to the first floor, whereupon Baker exits the building.

Leaving aside any and all speculation or theories of who it could have been, if there were ever a time when someone on the fifth and/or sixth floor(s) could have left the building undetected by Baker, there were two: riding the elevator down while B&T were running up (and making a lot of "cover noise"), and again when T&B rode the elevator from the fifth floor past the sixth floor, and spent time poking around on the seventh.

Also note that LHO didn't become a "fugitive on the run" anytime immediately following the encounter with Baker since Jeraldine Reid watched LHO walk from the lunch room, nonchalantly ("calmly") through and across her office (open like a steno pool) and out the opposite (east) door. Whatever interrupted LHO's "calm" demeanor from that point on is anybody's good guess, but it does not appear that the Baker encounter was any kind of direct catalyst.

From where he was last seen by Reid, he had two means of egress (three, if you count him doubling back around the office via the encircling hallway and back down the rear stairs or elevator), those being a passenger elevator at the southeast corner area that went only between the first (ground) and second floors, and a short stairway in the same general area that only went between the same floors. From there, it was a short walk out the front door, near which - as I recall - he supposedly said that he'd directed someone to the telephone.

None of these things suggest to me someone "on the run."

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Truly, I believe, went with Baker to ensure Baker did not arrest this man. I doubt that the encounter Oswald had with a cop (or cops) even involved Baker. And it actually took place on the first floor - not the second third or fourth, according to immediate press reports citing police and Ochus Campbell as sources.

I would question Campbell's statement unless [he said that] he personally witnessed an encounter between lee Oswald and a policeman.

[Greg Parker]

According to the record, Marrion Baker upon hearing the shots believe they come fom an upper floor of the B/D. He drives straight to the biulding, and rushes up the stairs joined by the building super who is in the doorway, and hurries up the steps to the second floor, where he catches a glimpse of someone through a glass window and challenges him to "come here" gun in hand he is about to start questioning him when Truly arrives and identifies Oswald as an employee. Question, is there any evidence that anyone else in the biulding was challanged by Baker in this aggresive way, or had he, by shear luck, picked on the lone assassin..What ever, this incident seems to have got Oswalds motor running, and he goes from a calm, Coke drinking employee, to a fugative on the run.

Stephen Turner

Stephen, Baker's story morphed into whatever was needed at any particular time. As I do not think he was involved in any plot, but merely fell into line afterwards, I put most weight on his affidavit taken on the afternoon of the 22nd. In that, he said in regard to Truly, "...as I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager..." Seems like Truly was already in the building when Baker entered.

With regard to where the encounter witha suspect took place, he said, "...as we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. Not second. Third or fourth. No lunchroom. No door with a glass panel. Just walking away from the stairway.

With regard to a description of this person, Baker said it was "a white man, approx 30 years old/5'9"/165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket."

Oswald: white male, 24 years old, 5' 9", 145 pounds, light brown hair, grey wool or flannel jacket but not the same as the one found under the car according to Wes Frazier. I think Frazier was mistaken on the colour though, and it was the redish brown shirt/jacket which was later found in his boarding house room. He was arrested in a shirt/jacket similar to Frazier's description.

The person Baker encountered does not sound like Oswald. It sounds like the person seen by Rowland ("Slender white male, dark hair, light-coloured shirt, open at neck"), and Brennan ("He was a white man in his early 30's, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds. He had on light colored clothing but definately [sic] not a suit"), and the DPD plaza 12:45pm description given by unknown witness ("an unknown white male, about 30, slender build, 5 feet 10 inches, 165 lbs., armed with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle.") and the Tippit description ("a white male, approximately 30, 5'8", slender build... 165 pounds").

The proof that it was not Oswald is in the fact that Oswald was in the same room awaiting interrogation as Marvin Johnson took Baker's affidavit. If it had been Oswald, the affidavit would say something like "the person I encountered was the suspect now under arrest." At the very least, he would have got the description right with Oswald sitting right there across from him.

Somewhere between the time his affidavit was taken and the time Truly gave his on the Saturday, it was decided to (1) claim this encounter had been with Oswald, and (2) to switch it from third or fourth floor to second. These switches would be necessary since it is likely Baker did encounter the real gunman (or a decoy) and Reid's statement had placed Oswald on the second floor. Truly, I believe, went with Baker to ensure Baker did not arrest this man. I doubt that the encounter Oswald had with a cop (or cops) even involved Baker. And it actually took place on the first floor - not the second third or fourth, according to immediate press reports citing police and Ochus Campbell as sources.

Edited November 4, 2006 by Greg Parker

[Greg Parker]

I would question Campbell's statement unless [he said that] he personally witnessed an encounter between lee Oswald and a policeman.

J Raymond Carroll

Ochus Campbell as quoted in the New York Herald Tribune 23nov63 from statements made to the press on 22nov63: "Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been outside watching the parade. We saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor. Then we noticed he was gone." Mr Campbell added: "Of course he and the others were on their lunch hour but he did not have permission to leave the building and we haven't seen him since."

Kent Biffle in the DMN 23nov63: ""In a storage room on the first floor, the officer, gun drawn, spotted Oswald. 'Does this man work here?' the officer reportedly asked Truly." A year later, in a "remembrance" issue of the original story, Biffle wrote, "The superintendent would recall later that he & a policeman met Oswald as they charged into the building after the shots were fired."

The first report in Australia was in the Sydney Morning Herald. It had this: "During the frantic search for the President's killer, police were posted at exits to the warehouse. Police said a man, whom they identified as Oswald, walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman that "I work here," and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away, they said."

According to Harry Holmes. Oswald gave the following account: "a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers [note the plural] that I am one of the employees of the building."

Officers [plural] were indeed on the first floor taking details from employees for later contact. How could Oswald know this unless he experienced it?

Oswald was stopped on the first floor, questioned and let go - probably not by Baker. Truly ensured he left so he could be reported missing. Oswald was to be killed outside the US - not arrested or killed in the TSBD. Baker stopped the actual shooter (or a decoy). Truly ensured he too, was not arrested. Using witness descriptions, you can track this guy from the TSBD all the way to the Abundant Life Temple "safe house" he was seen and reported as entering. This was never searched.

Filmed interview with Acquilla Clemons

Interviewer; "was there another man there?"

Clemons;" Yes ther was one, other side of the street. Al I know is he tells him to go on"

Itvr; "Mrs Clemons, the man who had the gun, did he make any motion at all to the other man across the street?"

Clemons; "No more than to tell him to go."

Itvr; "He waved his hand and said go on?"

Clemons;"Yes, said, Go on."

Stephen Turner

Stephen,

What Clemons is describing here is Calloway and Scoggins giving chase with Tippit's gun. Her description of one of the men is a very good fit for Scoggins. Seems she thought she was witnessing the murderers escaping and not the would-be heroes in pursuit.

Edited November 4, 2006 by Greg Parker

[Duke Lane]

Ochus Campbell as quoted in the New York Herald Tribune 23nov63 from statements made to the press on 22nov63: "Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been outside watching the parade. We saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor. Then we noticed he was gone." Mr Campbell added: "Of course he and the others were on their lunch hour but he did not have permission to leave the building and we haven't seen him since." ...

Campbell was a VP in the TSBD operation (as was Roy Truly, another VP - tho' Campbell made out as if Truly was his subordinate; Jack Cason, the president, had gone home for lunch ... another "missing employee" of TSBD!) and was standing beside Truly outside the door, on or near the steps, according to Truly and Jeraldean Reid, before the shots. Campbell gave no testimony, but was mentioned several times in others'.

2H44; 3H189, 202, 214, 219-221, 230, 273-274, 279; VI, 339, 370, 397; 7H219-220, 379-380; 22H110, 845; 23H692, 816, 824-827; on shots from knoll, 3H274; Report: 154

He was questioned by the FBI on 11/24 and stated that he was not personally acquainted with LHO, but that Roy Truly had told him that all of the company employees "had been rounded up and one employee ... was missing," which is hearsay at its best (CE1435). Otherwise, his only direct contribution to the record was his 11/28 statement, comprising one paragraph about Oswald's pay records (CE1129).

One could almost be tempted to snicker at his reference that Oswald "did not have permission to leave the building" as if such permission was necessary, or that anyone else who was outside or away from the building - which were several - did have permission.

The temptation is lessened because it's frightening in its way that some of the very people he worked with - and worked for - began to paint him in a sinister light almost immediately: no shocked disbelief, no outward shows of support, no kind words amid the dismay ... just allusions of guilt. Makes ya wonder ....

According to Harry Holmes. Oswald gave the following account: "a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers [note the plural] that I am one of the employees of the building."

Officers [plural] were indeed on the first floor taking details from employees for later contact. How could Oswald know this unless he experienced it?

An encounter with police on the first floor hardly precludes another encounter with others elsewhere. Jeraldean Reid testified to his crossing through her second-floor office toward the elevator and stairway at the southeast corner, with the clear presumption that he went down one or the other to the main floor since they didn't lead anywhere else ... and to right near the front entrance to boot.

Hence, Oz clearly would have "experienced" officers on the first floor, although in the immediate aftermath, I'm not certain how clear it is that they were "taking details from employees for later contact" (if they were, why didn't they get his instead of just letting him pass?). He may have been challenged on the first floor, and either Truly or someone else may have vouched for his working there if so ... although nobody stated - or admitted - as much.

While "my superintendent of the place" would certainly seem to be Roy Truly, we have to remember that Holmes was relating this discussion second-hand: if those were indeed LHO's exact words, it may be indicative, but we have no way of knowing whether they were or not: he could also have said "my boss" or "my supervisor," which would have been Bill Shelley. Parsing second-hand statements is risky.

More to the point, Jeraldean Reid was back at her desk within two minutes of the shooting, and Oswald pass through her office moments later, headed downstairs. Whether or not the Baker encounter ever took place (on the second floor or elsewhere), Baker and Truly were on their way up six more levels as Oz was making his way down one. It would seem unlikely that, if Lee went directly out the door - or even lingered for just a few moments (since nobody mentioned seeing him) - it is doubtful that Truly could have been there and upstairs at the same time ... or even that he could have taken the elevator down in time to be there to vouch for Oz after taking Baker on the guided tour upstairs.

Whoever vouched for Oswald on the first floor - if anybody did - it most likely was not the "superintendent of the place," Roy Truly, who was the only "superintendent of the place."

Unfortunately, the only person who could have told us exactly what transpired was killed under suspicious circumstances just a couple of days later.

Oswald was stopped on the first floor, questioned and let go - probably not by Baker. Truly ensured he left so he could be reported missing.

I see your point with regard to Truly, but can you explain how - short of a cohort of his grabbing Oswald and spriting him away - Truly "ensured" that Oswald left the premises? At best, I can only see that Truly could have diverted police attention from persons, places or events within the building, but not that he could have ensured that Oswald (or the "mystery coke-drinker" in the lunchroom) was not detained, or anything else for that matter. What if Oz had decided to watch the events from inside the doorway?

That he was the only employee "reported missing" even while several others were absent and away from the building is beyond doubt ... but not "beyond question," since one legitimate one is: "why weren't the others reported missing, too?"

Oswald was to be killed outside the US - not arrested or killed in the TSBD. Baker stopped the actual shooter (or a decoy). Truly ensured he too, was not arrested. Using witness descriptions, you can track this guy from the TSBD all the way to the Abundant Life Temple "safe house" he was seen and reported as entering. This was never searched.

Just curious, what made the ALT a "safe house" other than that, if anybody was hiding in it, they weren't found? What witness accounts track someone to that location? And who was it that caused it not to be searched?

Personally, if I were to build a scenario that had Oswald getting framed - and killed - for the murders, I would probably have him dying in a hail of gunfire in the theater after Nick McDonald was shot ... except that the "big bang" didn't happen, and there was no time for a second try before McD got his hands on the gun. Then, I'd get Harry Olsen in the picture ... as if he wasn't already! (See the thread Jack Ruby, There can be only one?.)

Edited November 5, 2006 by Duke Lane

[Greg Parker]

Campbell was a VP in the TSBD operation (as was Roy Truly, another VP - tho' Campbell made out as if Truly was his subordinate;

Duke, in the scheme of things, it's difficult to blame Campbell. You are quite wrong in saying Truly was a VP. The structure was this: Cason - President and Treasurer; Campbell - VP and Secretary; Truly - Superintendent. Directors - Cason, Campbell and Truly. Company stock owners - Cason and Campbell. Truly had worked his way up through the company.

Jack Cason, the president, had gone home for lunch ... another "missing employee" of TSBD!)

Yep.

and was standing beside Truly outside the door [i assume you mean Campbell - not Cason!], on or near the steps, according to Truly and Jeraldean Reid, before the shots. Campbell gave no testimony, but was mentioned several times in others'.

2H44; 3H189, 202, 214, 219-221, 230, 273-274, 279; VI, 339, 370, 397; 7H219-220, 379-380; 22H110, 845; 23H692, 816, 824-827; on shots from knoll, 3H274; Report: 154

He was questioned by the FBI on 11/24 and stated that he was not personally acquainted with LHO, but that Roy Truly had told him that all of the company employees "had been rounded up and one employee ... was missing," which is hearsay at its best (CE1435).

I'll make the same point I make about others connected with that building. Stories morphed over time, and it doesn't take any imagination to see why. Therefore most weight should be given to first day statements. Unfortunately, in some cases, the only statements made on that day were to the press. So be it. I'll go with that over anything he said later.

Otherwise, his only direct contribution to the record was his 11/28 statement, comprising one paragraph about Oswald's pay records (CE1129).

That's two assertions so far that are wrong. I won't criticize you for it, as I have made assertions here myself which have been wrong. I will correct you, though. Nearly every time the FBI wanted to check on something to do with the TSBD, they checked with Campbell. The full list of FBI interviews with Campbell is CE 1129, CE 1435, CE 1887, CE 1965, CE 1970.

One could almost be tempted to snicker at his reference that Oswald "did not have permission to leave the building" as if such permission was necessary, or that anyone else who was outside or away from the building - which were several - did have permission.

The temptation is lessened because it's frightening in its way that some of the very people he worked with - and worked for - began to paint him in a sinister light almost immediately: no shocked disbelief, no outward shows of support, no kind words amid the dismay ... just allusions of guilt. Makes ya wonder ....

Couldn't agree more. At the very least, Truly aided in the plot by creating a temp vacancy on a false premise.

An encounter with police on the first floor hardly precludes another encounter with others elsewhere. Jeraldean Reid testified to his crossing through her second-floor office toward the elevator and stairway at the southeast corner, with the clear presumption that he went down one or the other to the main floor since they didn't lead anywhere else ... and to right near the front entrance to boot.

I have never disputed his encounter with Reid, so I don't know where you are coming from here...

Hence, Oz clearly would have "experienced" officers on the first floor, although in the immediate aftermath, I'm not certain how clear it is that they were "taking details from employees for later contact" (if they were, why didn't they get his instead of just letting him pass?). He may have been challenged on the first floor, and either Truly or someone else may have vouched for his working there if so ... although nobody stated - or admitted - as much.

Some employee statements from CE 1382:

Carl Edward Jones: "I left the building at about 2:30pm after being questioned by the police."

Patricia Ann Lawrence: "I left my office at about 2:00pm on November 22nd, 1963, went downstairs

and after being checked out by the police, I left the building at about 2:15pm."

Martha Reed: "I left the Texas School Book Depository building when I was finally permitted to do so by officers at about 2:30."

Mrs Robert E Saunders: "At approximately 2:00pm, I was told I could leave the building and after

signing out with a police officer on the first floor, I left for my residence."

Sarah D Stanton: I left the Depository building about 2:20pm on the afternoon of 11-22-63 after giving the police our names and addresses." [sic]

Steven F Wilson: "When we were told we could leave, the other employees and I left the building. Before this, I had furnished my name and other information to officers in the building. I left to go home at about 2:30pm."

Campbell, in an undated statement taken by Leavelle, said in part, "I went back to my office and an FBI agent came in and introduced himself. I do not remember his name. He asked that I have all the employees vacate the building. This I did, telling them to take the rest of the day off. I remained in the office until 2:30pm or 3:00pm. Then I left.

Campbell does not indicate what time he ordered everyone to leave, but Roy Edward Lewis said in his statement found in CE 1381 that he left at 1:15pm. Oswald may well have been the first to be let go. As for why they "didn't they get his [name and address] instead of just letting him pass", what makes you think they didn't? Are you aware that Revill made a list of employees names and addresses before Oswald was arrested, and that Oswald was at the top of the list? Are you aware that the street number on that list was slightly off - an Oswaldian thing to do, given the slight misinformation he'd supplied on other occasions.

More to the point, Jeraldean Reid was back at her desk within two minutes of the shooting, and Oswald pass through her office moments later, headed downstairs. Whether or not the Baker encounter ever took place (on the second floor or elsewhere), Baker and Truly were on their way up six more levels as Oz was making his way down one. It would seem unlikely that, if Lee went directly out the door - or even lingered for just a few moments (since nobody mentioned seeing him) - it is doubtful that Truly could have been there and upstairs at the same time ... or even that he could have taken the elevator down in time to be there to vouch for Oz after taking Baker on the guided tour upstairs.

Despite having most faith in first day statements - whether to DPD, FBI or press, I do think some errors were made - possibly just in how the stories were recorded or perceived by the recorder. One error I think was in Campbell's statement that the Oswald/cop/Truly encounter happened when Truly first went back inside. I think it happened after Truly had come back down. Oswald hadn't been seen by others because he'd gone into a storage room on the first floor, and this is where he was found in the "round up" and let go. There was a side door still open according to Billy Loveday, so again, if he left through that, it's more than possible no one saw him. This scenario fits with Roger Craig's account, btw.

Whoever vouched for Oswald on the first floor - if anybody did - it most likely was not the "superintendent of the place," Roy Truly, who was the only "superintendent of the place."

See above.

Unfortunately, the only person who could have told us exactly what transpired was killed under suspicious circumstances just a couple of days later.

Well, it does make it harder... but it can be pieced together... the peices are scattered, but they're there. They're there in first day statements, Fritz's notes, intorrogation reports and press reports.

I see your point with regard to Truly, but can you explain how - short of a cohort of his grabbing Oswald and spriting him away - Truly "ensured" that Oswald left the premises?

By vouching for him with police and telling him he could go.

At best, I can only see that Truly could have diverted police attention from persons, places or events within the building, but not that he could have ensured that Oswald (or the "mystery coke-drinker" in the lunchroom) was not detained, or anything else for that matter. What if Oz had decided to watch the events from inside the doorway?

Then others would have seen him, and the whole plan goes belly up. Oswald had to be a party to events in some way, if what I'm proposing here is correct - which in turn means he would not be watching from inside the doorway.

That he was the only employee "reported missing" even while several others were absent and away from the building is beyond doubt ... but not "beyond question," since one legitimate one is: "why weren't the others reported missing, too?"

Exactly.

Just curious, what made the ALT a "safe house" other than that, if anybody was hiding in it, they weren't found?

The ALT "was part of a network run by H. L. Hunt, Carl McIntire and Billy James Hargis - called the American Council of Christian Churches, a right-wing organization that involved itself politically with many Cold War efforts, including the struggle to free Cuba. . . ." according to Eric Tagg's book on Buddy Walthers.

What witness accounts track someone to that location?

See police radio transcripts.

And who was it that caused it not to be searched?

The false sighting at the library stopped some from searching as they sped off to that diversion, and Hill, in his attempt, was seen coming coming up the stairs by two ladies inside. They opened the door and told him they'd seen no-one and everything was jim dandy inside. Good enough for Hill, apparently.

Personally, if I were to build a scenario that had Oswald getting framed - and killed - for the murders, I would probably have him dying in a hail of gunfire in the theater after Nick McDonald was shot ... except that the "big bang" didn't happen, and there was no time for a second try before McD got his hands on the gun.

Indeed. And in my opinion, he got his hand on before entering the TT. He was trying to plant it on Oswald as an excuse to kill him. Getting him out of the country had failed. This would have to do. Oswald saved himself by making sure everyone heard him say he wasn't resisting.

Then, I'd get Harry Olsen in the picture ... as if he wasn't already! (See the thread Jack Ruby, There can be only one?.)

Harry Olsen's memory was so poor, it's not surprising he had to leave the force

Edited November 5, 2006 by Greg Parker

[Duke Lane]

Campbell was a VP in the TSBD operation (as was Roy Truly, another VP - tho' Campbell made out as if Truly was his subordinate;

Duke, in the scheme of things, it's difficult to blame Campbell. You are quite wrong in saying Truly was a VP. The structure was this: Cason - President and Treasurer; Campbell - VP and Secretary; Truly - Superintendent. Directors - Cason, Campbell and Truly. Company stock owners - Cason and Campbell. Truly had worked his way up through the company.

You're quite right. Truly had said in his testimony that he was a director of the company. It was my bad memory thinking he'd said VP.

Campbell gave no testimony, but was mentioned several times in others'.

2H44; 3H189, 202, 214, 219-221, 230, 273-274, 279; VI, 339, 370, 397; 7H219-220, 379-380; 22H110, 845; 23H692, 816, 824-827; on shots from knoll, 3H274; Report: 154

Otherwise, his only direct contribution to the record was his 11/28 statement, comprising one paragraph about Oswald's pay records (CE1129).

That's two assertions so far that are wrong. I won't criticize you for it, as I have made assertions here myself which have been wrong. I will correct you, though. Nearly every time the FBI wanted to check on something to do with the TSBD, they checked with Campbell. The full list of FBI interviews with Campbell is CE 1129, CE 1435, CE 1887 (23H692), CE 1965 (23H816), CE 1970 (23H824-827).

Right again. I cited them above (locations in blue in your list), but didn't turn the page.

One could almost be tempted to snicker at his reference that Oswald "did not have permission to leave the building" as if such permission was necessary, or that anyone else who was outside or away from the building - which were several - did have permission.

The temptation is lessened because it's frightening in its way that some of the very people he worked with - and worked for - began to paint him in a sinister light almost immediately: no shocked disbelief, no outward shows of support, no kind words amid the dismay ... just allusions of guilt. Makes ya wonder ....

Couldn't agree more. At the very least, Truly aided in the plot by creating a temp vacancy on a false premise.

True. I think it was Bonnie Ray Williams who made the statement that TSBD was putting the boys to work at odd jobs to keep from laying them off as business usually got slow as the holidays approached. If that's so, then why did they ADD Oswald just a few weeks before?

An encounter with police on the first floor hardly precludes another encounter with others elsewhere. Jeraldean Reid testified to his crossing through her second-floor office toward the elevator and stairway at the southeast corner, with the clear presumption that he went down one or the other to the main floor since they didn't lead anywhere else ... and to right near the front entrance to boot.

I have never disputed his encounter with Reid, so I don't know where you are coming from here...

Only to the point you raised that LHO didn't encounter B&T on the second floor at the lunchroom. What mitigates in favor of that is that LHO apparently was in the lunch room at about the time B&T would have been going by there - shortly before two minutes after the shooting - getting a soda pop. For B&T to have not seen LHO in the lunchroom and still guessed correctly that he'd been in there doing what he'd been doing is a bit of a stretch.

The point being that Oz apparently was in the lunchroom getting a coke, and that apparently B&T knew he was, so to eliminate the encounter completely seems to lack basis.

Hence, Oz clearly would have "experienced" officers on the first floor, although in the immediate aftermath, I'm not certain how clear it is that they were "taking details from employees for later contact" (if they were, why didn't they get his instead of just letting him pass?). He may have been challenged on the first floor, and either Truly or someone else may have vouched for his working there if so ... although nobody stated - or admitted - as much.

Some employee statements from CE 1382 ....

You mean CE1381? That's the trouble with quoting things from memory ... at least in my case.

Either way, I don't disagree with what you selected, but there are also quite a few instances where employees said that they could not get back into the building at various times and for various reasons, including (as I recall) at least one where "the door was locked." I've got an analysis on one of my web pages. With many of them kept outside - and nobody really specified that they'd hung out right in front of the doorway - the rest of them weren't necessarily immediately available if someone wanted to "round up" the employees.

More in just a little bit ....

[Greg Parker]

True. I think it was Bonnie Ray Williams who made the statement that TSBD was putting the boys to work at odd jobs to keep from laying them off as business usually got slow as the holidays approached. If that's so, then why did they ADD Oswald just a few weeks before?

Right. And add in Givens:

Mr. BELIN. Was there any period of time that you haven't worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What happened then?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I Just, you know, sometimes I had some days to layoff during the slack season, like it is now, and when it' is rush season he calls you back.

Clearly, finding odd jobs during a slack period so they didn't have to lay people off was not the usual practice.

To counter that, Truly testified as follows:

Mr. Truly. No, sir; I don't recall. Actually, the end of our fall rush - if it hadn't existed a week or 2 weeks longer, or if we had not been using some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would not have had any need for Lee Oswald at that time, which is a tragic thing for me to think about.

But does this really make sense? Why take people away from their regular work during a busy period on a non-urgent job (they did major renovations before moving in and didn't bother with the flooring then - moreover, the reason given for it was oil from canned goods stored there by the previous occupant - seems to me, if that was the case, it really needed to be done before moving in).

Only to the point you raised that LHO didn't encounter B&T on the second floor at the lunchroom. What mitigates in favor of that is that LHO apparently was in the lunch room at about the time B&T would have been going by there - shortly before two minutes after the shooting - getting a soda pop. For B&T to have not seen LHO in the lunchroom and still guessed correctly that he'd been in there doing what he'd been doing is a bit of a stretch.

The point being that Oz apparently was in the lunchroom getting a coke, and that apparently B&T knew he was, so to eliminate the encounter completely seems to lack basis.

Here's the deal on that - the sequence of statements over the first two days was as follows:

First: The account of Roy Truly noted by Bickle during the first hour and published Saturday morning had Oswald-Cop encounter on first floor, with Oswald being cleared by him for the cops.

Second: Marion Baker DPD affidavit taken with Oswald sitting in same room shortly after Oswald brought in. No mention of the arrested suspect being the suspect he encountered. Description not of Oswald. Encounter said to be on third or fourth floor in stairwell. No other encounters mentioned.

Third: Mrs Reid DPD statement taken Saturday - stated Oswald came through office with coke within minutes of the assassination.

Fourth: Truly DPD statement taken Saturday - He and Baker encountered Oswald in 2nd floor lunch room.

See how the story developed with two separated encounters merged and switched to 2nd floor? I believe the reason was firstly to make the Baker 3rd/4th non-Oswald encounter disappear, and secondly, they had to move the actual Oswald encounter up from the 1st floor, but the 2nd was as far as they could go because of the Reid statement.

You mean CE1381? That's the trouble with quoting things from memory ... at least in my case.

Yep. Failing memory wasn't the problem, though. I had it incorrectly in my notes as CE 1382.

Additional info I meant to include in the comment I made in a previous post to this thread. I said: As for why they "didn't they get his [name and address] instead of just letting him pass", what makes you think they didn't? Are you aware that Revill made a list of employees names and addresses before Oswald was arrested, and that Oswald was at the top of the list? Are you aware that the street number on that list was slightly off - an Oswaldian thing to do, given the slight misinformation he'd supplied on other occasions. I should have added that the address was one from the previous year - 604 Elspeth. The address listed by Revill was 605 Elpseth. Another theory on this has it that the address was supplied by MIG. I obviously believe however, that my theory is just as plausible, based on the evidence provided here.

[Duke Lane]

My reply continued ....

Campbell, in an undated statement taken by Leavelle, said in part, "I went back to my office and an FBI agent came in and introduced himself. I do not remember his name. He asked that I have all the employees vacate the building. This I did, telling them to take the rest of the day off. I remained in the office until 2:30pm or 3:00pm. Then I left."

Campbell does not indicate what time he ordered everyone to leave, but Roy Edward Lewis said in his statement found in CE 1381 that he left at 1:15pm. Oswald may well have been the first to be let go.

I think it's fair to say that it was well prior to 1:15 that LHO "may well have been the first to be let go," if that was indeed the case. If so, why was he singled out for a privilege not extended to anyone else for at least another half-hour, such extension of privilege forgotten, denied or disclaimed - and certainly not volunteered - by anyone who would have extended it?

It would seem that LHO had to have left the premises before any permissions were given to anyone to take the day off or to "vacate the building." He didn't say (or, nobody says he said, anyway, since we really don't know what he did say behind closed doors) that he was told he could take the afternoon off, only that he "didn't think there'd be any more work" for the rest of the day.

If he were already in Oak Cliff by 1:00, then when he left TSBD was before any FBI agent told Campbell to "have all the employees vacate the building," since, if I'm remembering correctly, Forrest Sorrells was the first FBI agent (back) on the scene after the shooting, and he didn't arrive until 1:00 or sometime shortly thereafter.

Too, if LHO was given permission to leave - and again, he didn't say he had been - then that would mean that someone told him something nobody else was told, with the sole intent of getting him to leave the premises. Even accomplishing that, there would then have had to have been some way to know (or decide) where he was going to go after he left.

An important point, too, is that despite the fact that he had been to Irving the evening before, it still was a Friday, and Irving was his usual destination ... albeit with his co-worker whom he apparently didn't ask about riding home with. Still, anyone trying to set him up simply by giving him "permission" to leave had no way of knowing that he wouldn't go somewhere other than where they'd need him to be.

Otherwise, the setup was incomplete and very possibly doomed to failure: what if he'd gone to Irving, or simply gone window shopping downtown, and hadn't been anywhere near where Tippit had gotten shot?

As for why they "didn't they get his [name and address] instead of just letting him pass", what makes you think they didn't? Are you aware that Revill made a list of employees names and addresses before Oswald was arrested, and that Oswald was at the top of the list? Are you aware that the street number on that list was slightly off - an Oswaldian thing to do, given the slight misinformation he'd supplied on other occasions.

Yes and yes ... and I'm also aware of the question that's been posed about how anyone there got that address for Oz, and your explanation makes sense ... if Revill was there soon enough after the shooting stopped to get Oswald's name from Oswald. Was he? Well, since we don't really know when Oz left or how he got to Oak Cliff - I'm sure we can, for example, concoct a scenario where someone else gets the bus transfer into police hands - that's sort of difficult to say.

Am I remembering correctly that the list was handwritten, or at least that LHO's was? If handwritten in its entirety, is the handwriting the same? (I recall that something - other than the fact that LHO's name was at the top - stuck out about it.) Also, for the sake of asking, are the people who follow his name in an order that makes sense vis-a-vis CE1381: first the people who were inside the building, followed by the people who couldn't get back in? If not, did Revill keep going in and out until he got everyone?

Even still, it would seem to have to be an incredible coincidence that the very guy that "they" wanted to get out of the building and would set up as the patsy was the first one not only whose name was taken down, but who was let loose ... as nobody after him was for at least ... what? Half an hour or 45 minutes?

Not trying to be critical (or WC-apologetic!), just trying to fill in the holes, if that's what they are.

More to the point, Jeraldean Reid was back at her desk within two minutes of the shooting, and Oswald pass through her office moments later, headed downstairs. Whether or not the Baker encounter ever took place (on the second floor or elsewhere), Baker and Truly were on their way up six more levels as Oz was making his way down one. It would seem unlikely that, if Lee went directly out the door - or even lingered for just a few moments (since nobody mentioned seeing him) - it is doubtful that Truly could have been there and upstairs at the same time ... or even that he could have taken the elevator down in time to be there to vouch for Oz after taking Baker on the guided tour upstairs.

Despite having most faith in first day statements - whether to DPD, FBI or press, I do think some errors were made - possibly just in how the stories were recorded or perceived by the recorder. One error I think was in Campbell's statement that the Oswald/cop/Truly encounter happened when Truly first went back inside....

No question about Campbell's error ... or is there? Well, assuming the stairwell B/T/O encounter is true (even if the details are wrong), I guess not. So he misperceived something that took place in his own building (well, not actually his; Harold Byrd's) amid the confusion of a rather unusual event happening outside his doors just moments before. Seems reasonable. Seriously.

... So it would seem, then, that the same latitude should be applied to Baker's statement about where the encounter took place, especially when you consider that he was in a building he had (presumably) never been inside before. The stairs were half-flights as I remember, requiring going up one, then reversing direction and starting up the next to go up one story. Thus, in haste and confusion - or not even bothering to count, more intent upon reaching a destination he knew he hadn't reached than being concerned with how far along the pathway to it he'd come - he easily could have mistaken the number of floors he'd gone up.

And haven't you done the same? Even visited a new friend's house a second time and wondered "gee, it seemed like it was a lot farther/shorter the other night" or something similar? No real idea what floor he was on at first, but after having gone back a time or two (he testified following the re-enactments) he knew it was the second ....?

... I think it happened after Truly had come back down. Oswald hadn't been seen by others because he'd gone into a storage room on the first floor, and this is where he was found in the "round up" and let go. There was a side door still open according to Billy Loveday, so again, if he left through that, it's more than possible no one saw him. This scenario fits with Roger Craig's account, btw.

Looking at CE362 (16H958 - not very clear even in its original printed form), the "storage" shown is not very large, not much more than a closet beneath the mid-way landing half-way up to the second floor, tucked away in a corner. I have no idea what might've been stored in there - it doesn't look much bigger than a closet used for execs and secretaries to put their winter coats and rain gear in - but it would seem like a pretty odd place for Oz to spend any appreciable amount of time there without arousing suspicion, nor for his co-workers not to think it odd enough to remark about him having been there. Really: I can't imagine - can you? - that any cop worth even half his pay, even with assurances that the man worked there, would just let someone being found in a place like that just walk away?

Perhaps if he'd ducked in there for a moment and ducked out again when he saw an opportune moment, then maybe nobody would have paid much attention ... but if he'd been there any appreciable amount of time - say, long enough for Baker & Truly to have made it up to the 7th floor, looked around and made it back down - it seems unlikely that he wouldn't have been viewed with a helluva lot more suspicion, even by his closest associates. Moreover, if they were actually conducting a "round up" - which may or may not have actually occurred - and he was found then, I can't imagine nobody noticing or commenting on it.

If it happened in the first couple of minutes after he'd come downstairs - say, about the time Robert what's-his-name the reporter came in looking for the phone (an "opportune moment?") - then it's a bit more plausible, but that doesn't leave time for Revill to show up and start gathering names.

In any case, if we actually propose LHO doing this - being so furtive, almost even desperate to get out of the building unseen - then we've described a man who wouldn't seem very likely to do the (unspoken?) bidding of someone who was trying to get him out of the building so his absence would be noted. And if he was trying to get out unseen - at which he was apparently successful, at least insofar as people who weren't looking for him were concerned - then he must've been nabbed by someone else when he'd managed to squeak out.

His exits would have been limited to the front door; the door on the east loading dock; and the doors at the west loading dock. The latter two present problems in that on the west side, cops and sheriff's deputies were combing through the parking lot behind the grassy knoll where so many of them thought shots originated; not a very good place to run to; and on the east side, you've got patrolman W.E. Barnett watching the side of the building and fire escape, along with James Romack playing at sentry duty at the rear. Neither saw anyone exit from the building, at least not for the first few minutes following the shooting. After that, there was also the KBOX news crew to contend with.

Unfortunately, the only person who could have told us exactly what transpired was killed under suspicious circumstances just a couple of days later.

Well, it does make it harder... but it can be pieced together... the peices are scattered, but they're there. They're there in first day statements, Fritz's notes, intorrogation reports and press reports.

I find it difficult to lend any credence to notes that didn't exist for 25 years, and may or may not have been in original form when the did begin to exist. As also noted previously, first impressions are not always the best impressions.

I see your point with regard to Truly, but can you explain how - short of a cohort of his grabbing Oswald and spriting him away - Truly "ensured" that Oswald left the premises?

By vouching for him with police and telling him he could go.

At best, I can only see that Truly could have diverted police attention from persons, places or events within the building, but not that he could have ensured that Oswald (or the "mystery coke-drinker" in the lunchroom) was not detained, or anything else for that matter. What if Oz had decided to watch the events from inside the doorway?

Then others would have seen him, and the whole plan goes belly up. Oswald had to be a party to events in some way, if what I'm proposing here is correct - which in turn means he would not be watching from inside the doorway.

Again, I take your points, and it gets hairy here ... and you're right, it does require Oswald to be a party in some way if the direction you're going is correct. The question is, in what way? I think it's fair to say that it was not as a witting patsy ... wittingly as a patsy, that is: I have difficulty imagining someone - anyone - going along with the plan that "you're going to get blamed, you have to run, you're probably going to get killed." I likewise have difficulty imagining someone as reasonably intelligent as Lee Oswald thinking that his leaving TSBD after the shooting - assuming he knew (and how could he not?) that that's what spurred his having to go into action - thinking that his leaving would not cast suspicion on him.

So if not that, then what?

More shortly. I sometimes think that this forum doesn't like to many "quote" sections and subsections, and if that's the case, I've passed my limit for a single message. BRB!

[Duke Lane]

My reply continued ....

Just curious, what made the ALT a "safe house" other than that, if anybody was hiding in it, they weren't found?

The ALT "was part of a network run by H. L. Hunt, Carl McIntire and Billy James Hargis - called the American Council of Christian Churches, a right-wing organization that involved itself politically with many Cold War efforts, including the struggle to free Cuba. . . ." according to Eric Tagg's book on Buddy Walthers.

Not familiar with that; have no idea. I'll have to look into it if possible.

Still, what you're suggesting here tends toward the local rather than the national ....

What witness accounts track someone to that location?

See police radio transcripts.

And who was it that caused it not to be searched?

The false sighting at the library stopped some from searching as they sped off to that diversion, and Hill, in his attempt, was seen coming up the stairs by two ladies inside. They opened the door and told him they'd seen no-one and everything was jim dandy inside. Good enough for Hill, apparently.

Now that's a pretty passive role ... or very lucky on the part of whomever had managed to set all of this up ... Truly giving the "go" signal to Oz the patsy ... his managing to get away by the skin of his teeth ... pulling a dumb move like shooting a cop, drawing attention to him and his "friends" ... and then (phew!) along comes that lucky call to the library. Are you sure of all this, or maybe there are some other holes to fill? Like, for instance, if the game plan was to end up at the ALT in the first place and the library call was a planned diversion, then what was the deal with Tippit such that they'd need a diversion from that little murder?

Personally, if I were to build a scenario that had Oswald getting framed - and killed - for the murders, I would probably have him dying in a hail of gunfire in the theater after Nick McDonald was shot ... except that the "big bang" didn't happen, and there was no time for a second try before McD got his hands on the gun.

Indeed. And in my opinion, he got his hand on before entering the TT. He was trying to plant it on Oswald as an excuse to kill him. Getting him out of the country had failed. This would have to do. Oswald saved himself by making sure everyone heard him say he wasn't resisting.

I think you may have something there ... tho' I also don't think McDonald went into it expecting he'd be the next casualty either. And if the gun didn't go off, what would the excuse for shooting Oswald have been?

Then, I'd get Harry Olsen in the picture ... as if he wasn't already! (See the thread Jack Ruby, There can be only one?.)

Harry Olsen's memory was so poor, it's not surprising he had to leave the force.

If you say so. You do realize that it was the second time he got fired in the previous 18 months, don't you?

Here's a summary of what I think you're suggesting: You feel that it's possible that TSBD execs were in on the deal going down and purposely set up Lee Oswald, both weeks before the assassination by hiring him to be in the right place at the wrong time under false pretenses, and then after the fact by /a/ possibly shielding him from what was really going on (say, so he could continue to act innocent), or maybe having his active participation in some role inside the building, and then, in either of those cases, /b/ sending him elsewhere and then calling attention to him by subsequently bringing his absence to the attention of the police. The rest, as they say, is history.

Is that about right ... at least up to that point? If so, the next question would have to be to whom the TSBD folks turned control of the situation - and Oswald - over to once Lee had left the building.

Another would be why he wasn't just spirited off to, say, Redbird Airport and into a plane to Mexico if the real game plan was to get him out of the country. I mean, why go farting around little ol' Oak Cliff on foot if the "real deal" is hundreds of miles away, presumably by air?

Third might be how all these contingency plans (like a fake call to the library, or Nick McDonald attempting to plant a gun on Oswald) happened to be in place in little ol' Oak Cliff if Oak Cliff wasn't part of the plan to begin with? What do you think: did Tippit accidentally stumble upon a man walking down the street (one of many, if Harry Olsen is to be believed from his vantage point six blocks away), decide he was somehow suspicious, and end up getting himself shot and killed for his efforts? Or might he, too, have been a diversion?

I mean, the whole library/Nick McDonald thing leads one to the conclusion that the "conclusion" was to be in Oak Cliff, maybe even at the theater, so if you've got to get the cops to kill the patsy, what better way to stir their emotions than to kill one of their own ... or better yet, two of their own? A second cop-killing right in front of their eyes (so to speak) would all but guarantee that whoever did it was not going to get out alive, don't you think?

Well, I dunno. You've opened a couple of areas that seem interesting to follow, tho' I don't know that they'd lead anywhere beyond speculation, but it makes for an interesting "alternate scenario" as folks on CompuServe used to bellow for years ago (as in: "if you can't concoct a better and more plausible story than the WC version, then that's what has to have happened").

More later?

Edited November 6, 2006 by Duke Lane

[Thomas Graves]

My reply continued ....

Campbell, in an undated statement taken by Leavelle, said in part, "I went back to my office and an FBI agent came in and introduced himself. I do not remember his name. He asked that I have all the employees vacate the building. This I did, telling them to take the rest of the day off. I remained in the office until 2:30pm or 3:00pm. Then I left."

Campbell does not indicate what time he ordered everyone to leave, but Roy Edward Lewis said in his statement found in CE 1381 that he left at 1:15pm. Oswald may well have been the first to be let go.

I think it's fair to say that it was well prior to 1:15 that LHO "may well have been the first to be let go," if that was indeed the case. If so, why was he singled out for a privilege not extended to anyone else for at least another half-hour, such extension of privilege forgotten, denied or disclaimed - and certainly not volunteered - by anyone who would have extended it?

It would seem that LHO had to have left the premises before any permissions were given to anyone to take the day off or to "vacate the building." He didn't say (or, nobody says he said, anyway, since we really don't know what he did say behind closed doors) that he was told he could take the afternoon off, only that he "didn't think there'd be any more work" for the rest of the day.

If he were already in Oak Cliff by 1:00, then when he left TSBD was before any FBI agent told Campbell to "have all the employees vacate the building," since, if I'm remembering correctly, Forrest Sorrells was the first FBI agent (back) on the scene after the shooting, and he didn't arrive until 1:00 or sometime shortly thereafter.

Too, if LHO was given permission to leave - and again, he didn't say he had been - then that would mean that someone told him something nobody else was told, with the sole intent of getting him to leave the premises. Even accomplishing that, there would then have had to have been some way to know (or decide) where he was going to go after he left.

An important point, too, is that despite the fact that he had been to Irving the evening before, it still was a Friday, and Irving was his usual destination ... albeit with his co-worker whom he apparently didn't ask about riding home with. Still, anyone trying to set him up simply by giving him "permission" to leave had no way of knowing that he wouldn't go somewhere other than where they'd need him to be.

Otherwise, the setup was incomplete and very possibly doomed to failure: what if he'd gone to Irving, or simply gone window shopping downtown, and hadn't been anywhere near where Tippit had gotten shot?

As for why they "didn't they get his [name and address] instead of just letting him pass", what makes you think they didn't? Are you aware that Revill made a list of employees names and addresses before Oswald was arrested, and that Oswald was at the top of the list? Are you aware that the street number on that list was slightly off - an Oswaldian thing to do, given the slight misinformation he'd supplied on other occasions.

Yes and yes ... and I'm also aware of the question that's been posed about how anyone there got that address for Oz, and your explanation makes sense ... if Revill was there soon enough after the shooting stopped to get Oswald's name from Oswald. Was he? Well, since we don't really know when Oz left or how he got to Oak Cliff - I'm sure we can, for example, concoct a scenario where someone else gets the bus transfer into police hands - that's sort of difficult to say.

Am I remembering correctly that the list was handwritten, or at least that LHO's was? If handwritten in its entirety, is the handwriting the same? (I recall that something - other than the fact that LHO's name was at the top - stuck out about it.) Also, for the sake of asking, are the people who follow his name in an order that makes sense vis-a-vis CE1381: first the people who were inside the building, followed by the people who couldn't get back in? If not, did Revill keep going in and out until he got everyone?

Even still, it would seem to have to be an incredible coincidence that the very guy that "they" wanted to get out of the building and would set up as the patsy was the first one not only whose name was taken down, but who was let loose ... as nobody after him was for at least ... what? Half an hour or 45 minutes?

Not trying to be critical (or WC-apologetic!), just trying to fill in the holes, if that's what they are.

More to the point, Jeraldean Reid was back at her desk within two minutes of the shooting, and Oswald pass through her office moments later, headed downstairs. Whether or not the Baker encounter ever took place (on the second floor or elsewhere), Baker and Truly were on their way up six more levels as Oz was making his way down one. It would seem unlikely that, if Lee went directly out the door - or even lingered for just a few moments (since nobody mentioned seeing him) - it is doubtful that Truly could have been there and upstairs at the same time ... or even that he could have taken the elevator down in time to be there to vouch for Oz after taking Baker on the guided tour upstairs.

Despite having most faith in first day statements - whether to DPD, FBI or press, I do think some errors were made - possibly just in how the stories were recorded or perceived by the recorder. One error I think was in Campbell's statement that the Oswald/cop/Truly encounter happened when Truly first went back inside....

No question about Campbell's error ... or is there? Well, assuming the stairwell B/T/O encounter is true (even if the details are wrong), I guess not. So he misperceived something that took place in his own building (well, not actually his; Harold Byrd's) amid the confusion of a rather unusual event happening outside his doors just moments before. Seems reasonable. Seriously.

... So it would seem, then, that the same latitude should be applied to Baker's statement about where the encounter took place, especially when you consider that he was in a building he had (presumably) never been inside before. The stairs were half-flights as I remember, requiring going up one, then reversing direction and starting up the next to go up one story. Thus, in haste and confusion - or not even bothering to count, more intent upon reaching a destination he knew he hadn't reached than being concerned with how far along the pathway to it he'd come - he easily could have mistaken the number of floors he'd gone up.

And haven't you done the same? Even visited a new friend's house a second time and wondered "gee, it seemed like it was a lot farther/shorter the other night" or something similar? No real idea what floor he was on at first, but after having gone back a time or two (he testified following the re-enactments) he knew it was the second ....?

... I think it happened after Truly had come back down. Oswald hadn't been seen by others because he'd gone into a storage room on the first floor, and this is where he was found in the "round up" and let go. There was a side door still open according to Billy Loveday, so again, if he left through that, it's more than possible no one saw him. This scenario fits with Roger Craig's account, btw.

Looking at CE362 (16H958 - not very clear even in its original printed form), the "storage" shown is not very large, not much more than a closet beneath the mid-way landing half-way up to the second floor, tucked away in a corner. I have no idea what might've been stored in there - it doesn't look much bigger than a closet used for execs and secretaries to put their winter coats and rain gear in - but it would seem like a pretty odd place for Oz to spend any appreciable amount of time there without arousing suspicion, nor for his co-workers not to think it odd enough to remark about him having been there. Really: I can't imagine - can you? - that any cop worth even half his pay, even with assurances that the man worked there, would just let someone being found in a place like that just walk away?

Perhaps if he'd ducked in there for a moment and ducked out again when he saw an opportune moment, then maybe nobody would have paid much attention ... but if he'd been there any appreciable amount of time - say, long enough for Baker & Truly to have made it up to the 7th floor, looked around and made it back down - it seems unlikely that he wouldn't have been viewed with a helluva lot more suspicion, even by his closest associates. Moreover, if they were actually conducting a "round up" - which may or may not have actually occurred - and he was found then, I can't imagine nobody noticing or commenting on it.

If it happened in the first couple of minutes after he'd come downstairs - say, about the time Robert what's-his-name the reporter came in looking for the phone (an "opportune moment?") - then it's a bit more plausible, but that doesn't leave time for Revill to show up and start gathering names.

In any case, if we actually propose LHO doing this - being so furtive, almost even desperate to get out of the building unseen - then we've described a man who wouldn't seem very likely to do the (unspoken?) bidding of someone who was trying to get him out of the building so his absence would be noted. And if he was trying to get out unseen - at which he was apparently successful, at least insofar as people who weren't looking for him were concerned - then he must've been nabbed by someone else when he'd managed to squeak out.

His exits would have been limited to the front door; the door on the east loading dock; and the doors at the west loading dock. The latter two present problems in that on the west side, cops and sheriff's deputies were combing through the parking lot behind the grassy knoll where so many of them thought shots originated; not a very good place to run to; and on the east side, you've got patrolman W.E. Barnett watching the side of the building and fire escape, along with James Romack playing at sentry duty at the rear. Neither saw anyone exit from the building, at least not for the first few minutes following the shooting. After that, there was also the KBOX news crew to contend with.

Unfortunately, the only person who could have told us exactly what transpired was killed under suspicious circumstances just a couple of days later.

Well, it does make it harder... but it can be pieced together... the peices are scattered, but they're there. They're there in first day statements, Fritz's notes, intorrogation reports and press reports.

I find it difficult to lend any credence to notes that didn't exist for 25 years, and may or may not have been in original form when the did begin to exist. As also noted previously, first impressions are not always the best impressions.

I see your point with regard to Truly, but can you explain how - short of a cohort of his grabbing Oswald and spriting him away - Truly "ensured" that Oswald left the premises?

By vouching for him with police and telling him he could go.

At best, I can only see that Truly could have diverted police attention from persons, places or events within the building, but not that he could have ensured that Oswald (or the "mystery coke-drinker" in the lunchroom) was not detained, or anything else for that matter. What if Oz had decided to watch the events from inside the doorway?

Then others would have seen him, and the whole plan goes belly up. Oswald had to be a party to events in some way, if what I'm proposing here is correct - which in turn means he would not be watching from inside the doorway.

Again, I take your points, and it gets hairy here ... and you're right, it does require Oswald to be a party in some way if the direction you're going is correct. The question is, in what way? I think it's fair to say that it was not as a witting patsy ... wittingly as a patsy, that is: I have difficulty imagining someone - anyone - going along with the plan that "you're going to get blamed, you have to run, you're probably going to get killed." I likewise have difficulty imagining someone as reasonably intelligent as Lee Oswald thinking that his leaving TSBD after the shooting - assuming he knew (and how could he not?) that that's what spurred his having to go into action - thinking that his leaving would not cast suspicion on him.

So if not that, then what?

More shortly. I sometimes think that this forum doesn't like to many "quote" sections and subsections, and if that's the case, I've passed my limit for a single message. BRB!

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I'm wondering if LHO, when he was supposedly inside the TSBD buying a soda pop, knew that JFK had just been shot, and if so, why he wasn't outside watching all of the exciting events unfold? Or was he? Why wasn't he outside watching the motorcade go by in the first place? Or was he? Was he really such a "loner" and and so uninterested in watching JFK and his beautiful wife pass by? Was he so hungry that the only thing he could think about was eating his crummy lunch? Or was he somehow involved in the assassination or in trying to prevent it? Waiting for a phone call, perhaps?

--Thomas

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[Thomas Graves]

My reply continued ....

Campbell, in an undated statement taken by Leavelle, said in part, "I went back to my office and an FBI agent came in and introduced himself. I do not remember his name. He asked that I have all the employees vacate the building. This I did, telling them to take the rest of the day off. I remained in the office until 2:30pm or 3:00pm. Then I left."

Campbell does not indicate what time he ordered everyone to leave, but Roy Edward Lewis said in his statement found in CE 1381 that he left at 1:15pm. Oswald may well have been the first to be let go.

I think it's fair to say that it was well prior to 1:15 that LHO "may well have been the first to be let go," if that was indeed the case. If so, why was he singled out for a privilege not extended to anyone else for at least another half-hour, such extension of privilege forgotten, denied or disclaimed - and certainly not volunteered - by anyone who would have extended it?

It would seem that LHO had to have left the premises before any permissions were given to anyone to take the day off or to "vacate the building." He didn't say (or, nobody says he said, anyway, since we really don't know what he did say behind closed doors) that he was told he could take the afternoon off, only that he "didn't think there'd be any more work" for the rest of the day.

If he were already in Oak Cliff by 1:00, then when he left TSBD was before any FBI agent told Campbell to "have all the employees vacate the building," since, if I'm remembering correctly, Forrest Sorrells was the first FBI agent (back) on the scene after the shooting, and he didn't arrive until 1:00 or sometime shortly thereafter.

Too, if LHO was given permission to leave - and again, he didn't say he had been - then that would mean that someone told him something nobody else was told, with the sole intent of getting him to leave the premises. Even accomplishing that, there would then have had to have been some way to know (or decide) where he was going to go after he left.

An important point, too, is that despite the fact that he had been to Irving the evening before, it still was a Friday, and Irving was his usual destination ... albeit with his co-worker whom he apparently didn't ask about riding home with. Still, anyone trying to set him up simply by giving him "permission" to leave had no way of knowing that he wouldn't go somewhere other than where they'd need him to be.

Otherwise, the setup was incomplete and very possibly doomed to failure: what if he'd gone to Irving, or simply gone window shopping downtown, and hadn't been anywhere near where Tippit had gotten shot?

As for why they "didn't they get his [name and address] instead of just letting him pass", what makes you think they didn't? Are you aware that Revill made a list of employees names and addresses before Oswald was arrested, and that Oswald was at the top of the list? Are you aware that the street number on that list was slightly off - an Oswaldian thing to do, given the slight misinformation he'd supplied on other occasions.

Yes and yes ... and I'm also aware of the question that's been posed about how anyone there got that address for Oz, and your explanation makes sense ... if Revill was there soon enough after the shooting stopped to get Oswald's name from Oswald. Was he? Well, since we don't really know when Oz left or how he got to Oak Cliff - I'm sure we can, for example, concoct a scenario where someone else gets the bus transfer into police hands - that's sort of difficult to say.

Am I remembering correctly that the list was handwritten, or at least that LHO's was? If handwritten in its entirety, is the handwriting the same? (I recall that something - other than the fact that LHO's name was at the top - stuck out about it.) Also, for the sake of asking, are the people who follow his name in an order that makes sense vis-a-vis CE1381: first the people who were inside the building, followed by the people who couldn't get back in? If not, did Revill keep going in and out until he got everyone?

Even still, it would seem to have to be an incredible coincidence that the very guy that "they" wanted to get out of the building and would set up as the patsy was the first one not only whose name was taken down, but who was let loose ... as nobody after him was for at least ... what? Half an hour or 45 minutes?

Not trying to be critical (or WC-apologetic!), just trying to fill in the holes, if that's what they are.

More to the point, Jeraldean Reid was back at her desk within two minutes of the shooting, and Oswald pass through her office moments later, headed downstairs. Whether or not the Baker encounter ever took place (on the second floor or elsewhere), Baker and Truly were on their way up six more levels as Oz was making his way down one. It would seem unlikely that, if Lee went directly out the door - or even lingered for just a few moments (since nobody mentioned seeing him) - it is doubtful that Truly could have been there and upstairs at the same time ... or even that he could have taken the elevator down in time to be there to vouch for Oz after taking Baker on the guided tour upstairs.

Despite having most faith in first day statements - whether to DPD, FBI or press, I do think some errors were made - possibly just in how the stories were recorded or perceived by the recorder. One error I think was in Campbell's statement that the Oswald/cop/Truly encounter happened when Truly first went back inside....

No question about Campbell's error ... or is there? Well, assuming the stairwell B/T/O encounter is true (even if the details are wrong), I guess not. So he misperceived something that took place in his own building (well, not actually his; Harold Byrd's) amid the confusion of a rather unusual event happening outside his doors just moments before. Seems reasonable. Seriously.

... So it would seem, then, that the same latitude should be applied to Baker's statement about where the encounter took place, especially when you consider that he was in a building he had (presumably) never been inside before. The stairs were half-flights as I remember, requiring going up one, then reversing direction and starting up the next to go up one story. Thus, in haste and confusion - or not even bothering to count, more intent upon reaching a destination he knew he hadn't reached than being concerned with how far along the pathway to it he'd come - he easily could have mistaken the number of floors he'd gone up.

And haven't you done the same? Even visited a new friend's house a second time and wondered "gee, it seemed like it was a lot farther/shorter the other night" or something similar? No real idea what floor he was on at first, but after having gone back a time or two (he testified following the re-enactments) he knew it was the second ....?

... I think it happened after Truly had come back down. Oswald hadn't been seen by others because he'd gone into a storage room on the first floor, and this is where he was found in the "round up" and let go. There was a side door still open according to Billy Loveday, so again, if he left through that, it's more than possible no one saw him. This scenario fits with Roger Craig's account, btw.

Looking at CE362 (16H958 - not very clear even in its original printed form), the "storage" shown is not very large, not much more than a closet beneath the mid-way landing half-way up to the second floor, tucked away in a corner. I have no idea what might've been stored in there - it doesn't look much bigger than a closet used for execs and secretaries to put their winter coats and rain gear in - but it would seem like a pretty odd place for Oz to spend any appreciable amount of time there without arousing suspicion, nor for his co-workers not to think it odd enough to remark about him having been there. Really: I can't imagine - can you? - that any cop worth even half his pay, even with assurances that the man worked there, would just let someone being found in a place like that just walk away?

Perhaps if he'd ducked in there for a moment and ducked out again when he saw an opportune moment, then maybe nobody would have paid much attention ... but if he'd been there any appreciable amount of time - say, long enough for Baker & Truly to have made it up to the 7th floor, looked around and made it back down - it seems unlikely that he wouldn't have been viewed with a helluva lot more suspicion, even by his closest associates. Moreover, if they were actually conducting a "round up" - which may or may not have actually occurred - and he was found then, I can't imagine nobody noticing or commenting on it.

If it happened in the first couple of minutes after he'd come downstairs - say, about the time Robert what's-his-name the reporter came in looking for the phone (an "opportune moment?") - then it's a bit more plausible, but that doesn't leave time for Revill to show up and start gathering names.

In any case, if we actually propose LHO doing this - being so furtive, almost even desperate to get out of the building unseen - then we've described a man who wouldn't seem very likely to do the (unspoken?) bidding of someone who was trying to get him out of the building so his absence would be noted. And if he was trying to get out unseen - at which he was apparently successful, at least insofar as people who weren't looking for him were concerned - then he must've been nabbed by someone else when he'd managed to squeak out.

His exits would have been limited to the front door; the door on the east loading dock; and the doors at the west loading dock. The latter two present problems in that on the west side, cops and sheriff's deputies were combing through the parking lot behind the grassy knoll where so many of them thought shots originated; not a very good place to run to; and on the east side, you've got patrolman W.E. Barnett watching the side of the building and fire escape, along with James Romack playing at sentry duty at the rear. Neither saw anyone exit from the building, at least not for the first few minutes following the shooting. After that, there was also the KBOX news crew to contend with.

Unfortunately, the only person who could have told us exactly what transpired was killed under suspicious circumstances just a couple of days later.

Well, it does make it harder... but it can be pieced together... the peices are scattered, but they're there. They're there in first day statements, Fritz's notes, intorrogation reports and press reports.

I find it difficult to lend any credence to notes that didn't exist for 25 years, and may or may not have been in original form when the did begin to exist. As also noted previously, first impressions are not always the best impressions.

I see your point with regard to Truly, but can you explain how - short of a cohort of his grabbing Oswald and spriting him away - Truly "ensured" that Oswald left the premises?

By vouching for him with police and telling him he could go.

At best, I can only see that Truly could have diverted police attention from persons, places or events within the building, but not that he could have ensured that Oswald (or the "mystery coke-drinker" in the lunchroom) was not detained, or anything else for that matter. What if Oz had decided to watch the events from inside the doorway?

Then others would have seen him, and the whole plan goes belly up. Oswald had to be a party to events in some way, if what I'm proposing here is correct - which in turn means he would not be watching from inside the doorway.

Again, I take your points, and it gets hairy here ... and you're right, it does require Oswald to be a party in some way if the direction you're going is correct. The question is, in what way? I think it's fair to say that it was not as a witting patsy ... wittingly as a patsy, that is: I have difficulty imagining someone - anyone - going along with the plan that "you're going to get blamed, you have to run, you're probably going to get killed." I likewise have difficulty imagining someone as reasonably intelligent as Lee Oswald thinking that his leaving TSBD after the shooting - assuming he knew (and how could he not?) that that's what spurred his having to go into action - thinking that his leaving would not cast suspicion on him.

So if not that, then what?

More shortly. I sometimes think that this forum doesn't like to many "quote" sections and subsections, and if that's the case, I've passed my limit for a single message. BRB!

________________________________________

I'm wondering if LHO, when he was supposedly inside the TSBD buying a soda pop, knew that JFK had just been shot, and if so, why he wasn't outside watching all of the exciting events unfold? Or was he? Why wasn't he outside watching the motorcade go by in the first place? Or was he? Was he really such a "loner" and and so uninterested in watching JFK and his beautiful wife pass by? Was he so hungry that the only thing he could think about was eating his crummy lunch? Or was he somehow involved in the assassination or in trying to prevent it? Waiting for a phone call, perhaps?

--Thomas

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