An unfired cartridge?

[Josiah Thompson]

Thank you, Tom, for the very complete answer. I have another point for you.

The live round, CE 544, and CE 545 all have an indentation on the shoulder of the cartridge case. [This indentation is shown in "Six Seconds"] CE 543 lacks this indentation but has a dent in the lip. The cases ejected during fire arms identification tests have very mild indentations on their shoulders in the same location as the dents seen on the live round, CE 544 and CE 545. This suggested to me that there was some protrusion in the chamber that made a dent in the cartridge case when it was fired and which caught the lip of CE 543 when it was dry-fired in the weapon.

What in your opinion might cause this lack of a shoulder dent on CE 543 and its presence on the other casings, a presence that gets dimmer as more and more rounds are fired.?

Josiah Thompson

I have been told by others that in such a "short-stroking" situation the short-stroked cartridge case rides over the next bullet in the clip and lodges in the breech of the weapon where it has to be removed by shoving a cleaning rod down the barrel. If this happened, the weapon would have been found with a stuck cartridge case in the breech. Is this true about short-stroking?

Josiah Thompson

YES, but!

The Carcano operating mechanism (clip) is quite diffferent than, say the M-1 Garand.

The Carcano clip holds ONLY the base of the cartridge in place. Thusly, when the bolt is pulled back, the magazine follower spring pressure exerted against the bottom round in the clip causes/allows the bullet nose of the top (next in line to be loaded) round to rise at an angle and thereafter "point" upwards toward the weapon chamber.

During normal operation, when the bolt comes forward, it catches the top edge of the cartridge rim and then drives the round forward and "upwards" which drives the round into the chamber.

When the round is sufficiently driven into the chamber, and the round becomes sufficiently horizontal in plane, then the cartridge rim is forced up into the bolt face and becomes fully seated in the bolt.

Therefore, when a "short stroke" occurs and the bolt still holds an empty casing, it is driven forward, the lower edge of the bolt will frequently still pick up the cartridge rim of the full round still in the clip and, dependent on a variety of factors either carry this round forward (along with the empty cartridge casing), or actually scrape over the top of the round, which can cause bottom edge of the bolt face as well as the seated empty cartridge casing to scrape over the top of the live round below it.

In eather case, we have a full bullet attempting to enter the weapon chamber with the bullet nose on a slightly elevated plane as well as an expended round casing attempting to enter the chamber on a horizontal plane, which DON'T FIT!

Therefore, it is not unusual for the forward area of the expended/empty cartridge casing to come into contact with the forward area (nose) of the live round which is attempting to enter the chamber. All of which seldom will result in a jammed round in the chamber and which usually results in a dent becoming formed in the empty/driven forward casing nose.

All based on the force of the forward thrust of the bolt.

Hope that is more clear than mud.

Tom

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Thank you, Tom, for the very complete answer. I have another point for you.

The live round, CE 544, and CE 545 all have an indentation on the shoulder of the cartridge case. [This indentation is shown in "Six Seconds"] CE 543 lacks this indentation but has a dent in the lip. The cases ejected during fire arms identification tests have very mild indentations on their shoulders in the same location as the dents seen on the live round, CE 544 and CE 545. This suggested to me that there was some protrusion in the chamber that made a dent in the cartridge case when it was fired and which caught the lip of CE 543 when it was dry-fired in the weapon.

What in your opinion might cause this lack of a shoulder dent on CE 543 and its presence on the other casings, a presence that gets dimmer as more and more rounds are fired.?

Josiah Thompson

I have been told by others that in such a "short-stroking" situation the short-stroked cartridge case rides over the next bullet in the clip and lodges in the breech of the weapon where it has to be removed by shoving a cleaning rod down the barrel. If this happened, the weapon would have been found with a stuck cartridge case in the breech. Is this true about short-stroking?

Josiah Thompson

YES, but!

The Carcano operating mechanism (clip) is quite diffferent than, say the M-1 Garand.

The Carcano clip holds ONLY the base of the cartridge in place. Thusly, when the bolt is pulled back, the magazine follower spring pressure exerted against the bottom round in the clip causes/allows the bullet nose of the top (next in line to be loaded) round to rise at an angle and thereafter "point" upwards toward the weapon chamber.

During normal operation, when the bolt comes forward, it catches the top edge of the cartridge rim and then drives the round forward and "upwards" which drives the round into the chamber.

When the round is sufficiently driven into the chamber, and the round becomes sufficiently horizontal in plane, then the cartridge rim is forced up into the bolt face and becomes fully seated in the bolt.

Therefore, when a "short stroke" occurs and the bolt still holds an empty casing, it is driven forward, the lower edge of the bolt will frequently still pick up the cartridge rim of the full round still in the clip and, dependent on a variety of factors either carry this round forward (along with the empty cartridge casing), or actually scrape over the top of the round, which can cause bottom edge of the bolt face as well as the seated empty cartridge casing to scrape over the top of the live round below it.

In eather case, we have a full bullet attempting to enter the weapon chamber with the bullet nose on a slightly elevated plane as well as an expended round casing attempting to enter the chamber on a horizontal plane, which DON'T FIT!

Therefore, it is not unusual for the forward area of the expended/empty cartridge casing to come into contact with the forward area (nose) of the live round which is attempting to enter the chamber. All of which seldom will result in a jammed round in the chamber and which usually results in a dent becoming formed in the empty/driven forward casing nose.

All based on the force of the forward thrust of the bolt.

Hope that is more clear than mud.

Tom

Not unlike some others, my copy of your excellent book is boxed away somewhere. Therefore I am relying strictly on memory, in which I also answered this question somewhere long ago.

Due to the repetetive nature of this referenced anomoly, it becomes evident that the most likely answer exists in either a small amount of fouling within the taper area of the chamber, or even possibly a small "burr".

Due primarily to thermal expansion of the steel of the chamber, the first round fired in a weapon will usually eject the casing relatively simply. This is of course due to the casing having sufficient room to expand within the chamber of the weapon.

As more and more rounds are progressively fired, thermal expansion affects a variety of aspects of the entire bullet (casing and projectile) as well as exactly how deeply within the chamber the round actually goes.

1. The chamber becomes a "tighter fit" for the casing, and thus when it expands, more pressures are put against the outer shell of the casing as it expands against the walls of the chamber.

This is why primarily causes casings to become stuck in rapid fire weapons where there is insufficient time for heat dissipation.

In that regards, one should think of the striking of coins. A "soft strike" does not allow the metal of the actual coin (planchet) to flow up into the definitive engravings of the die utilized to stamp the coin.

Whereas "Proof" aka/perfect coins are struck with tremendous amounts of applied pressure for a slightly more extended period of time.

Since CE543 did not show indications of the dent and the live round did, then this tended to serve as further circumstantial evidence that CE543 came from the first shot fired in the assassination shot sequence.

In that:

A. The chamber and head space had no thermal expansion which would have created the "tighter" fit of the casing in the chamber, thus creating the indentation during actual firing.

or:

B. There was no obtrusion within the chamber until after the firing of the first round aka/CE543 and this round left some form of metallic fouling within the weapon chamber.

This possibility is further evidenced by the potential of a "short-stroke" jam in which the nose of he next round below CE543 and the open mouth of CE543 collided within the chamber of the weapon due to failure to eject the casing.

2. Headspacing is a critical element in these old rifles also, and as thermal expansion just as thermal expansion creates a tighter fit for each succeeding round, the first round will virtually always "kick back' it's casing farther within the adjusted head space then will succeeding rounds, as the propellant explodes.

This has much to do with why one round may demonstrate clear and concise toolmarks from the bolt face, while other rounds may progressively demonstrate less clear markings.

This "kick back" also means that the casing moved backwards slightly within the chamber and taper area of the chamber as the round fired. Thusly, lthe tightest fit of the crimp area of the casing is frequently expanding in a more open/larger size area of the chamber.

Lastly!

The weapon chamber and/or taper section of the chamber could not have contained anything which would have created the dent in this casing, and still managed to fully chamber the round for firing. Additionally, even a small dent which could have been chambered would have disappeared from the weapon as the expanding force of the propellant forced the casing to match the surrounding taper of the rifle chamber. The dent could occur ONLY after the round had been fired, and based on the toolmark comparison, this casing was absolutely fired in the recovered Carcano rifle.

Did I cover it?

[John Dolva]

found it. (amongst ''my attachments'' in another topic)

[John Dolva]

perhaps a better topic heading is

'' A casing fired without a bullet in it ? ''

[Robert Prudhomme]

I have never read such unmitigated bull crap in my life. Mr. Purvis either makes all of this up as he goes, or he is one seriously confused individual.

Simply put, the cartridge base is held in the face of the 6.5 Carcano bolt. This bolt is quite a bit bigger in diameter than the cartridge. As you draw the bolt back to eject an empty cartridge, the bolt (not the empty cartridge) is riding on the next loaded cartridge in the magazine which is being pushed up by the magazine follower spring. If you do not pull the bolt back far enough to eject the cartridge and attempt to move the bolt forward, thinking you have ejected the empty and are chambering the next round, the bottom of the bolt face, riding on the cartridge in the magazine, pushes the cartridge nose back down into the magazine. The neck of the empty cartridge comes NOWHERE NEAR the next cartridge in the magazine. It is a physical impossibility and if you believe Mr. Purvis's nonsense, you are a gullible individual and you have been HAD.

If you place an empty cartridge into the magazine of a bolt action rifle and forcefully attempt to chamber this empty cartridge, for whatever bizarre reason you would choose to do such a thing, you will often catch the neck of the cartridge on the shoulder inside of the chamber. Normally, the sloped shape of the bullet will guide the cartridge past this shoulder. If done with enough force, this will put a dent in the neck of the cartridge.

This, of course, complicates things greatly, insofar as matching the three empty cartridges found in the SN to the assassination of JFK. While LHO was wiping his fingerprints from the rifle, did he put one of his empty cartridges back into the magazine of the rifle, just for a joke, and attempt to chamber it?

Edited November 29, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

**bump**

[Chris Newton]

Robert,

I think it's more than likely that whomever the perp was that was trying to frame Oswald had three spent cartridges fired previously to 11/22/63. This might explain why the clip found was bent and jammed surreptitiously back in the rifle. That same perp (who was supplied the items to plant) wasn't aware of the firing and ejection characteristics of the weapon, hence the almost incomprehensible condition of the casings. In the Tom Alyea film of the rifle recovery, I spied what seems to be a bolt pulled all the way to the rear as it is first picked up. This would indicate that the "live round" had already been ejected. As this film is supposed to be a re-enactment, what is the possibility that the Dallas Police had tried to re-chamber the "found" live round right there and then?

Maybe I'm confused but it sure looks like there's some funny business going on with the evidence right there on the sixth floor.

[Robert Prudhomme]

If the Tom Alyea film was a recreation, and this recreation was done prior to the Carcano rifle being taken to DPD headquarters, there is something desperately wrong with the clip in the Carcano rifle, as it is seen protruding part way out of the magazine in photos taken of it between the TSBD and DPD headquarters.

Considering that a normal Carcano clip simply falls out of the magazine AS the last cartridge is chambered, what magic force kept the clip in suspended animation, defying gravity, in the Carcano found in the TSBD? Defenders of the WC will maintain that the clip, designed as a discard following a one time use, had been used so many times, it was bent and would not fall out as it was intended. The fact of the matter is that a Carcano clip, bent that badly, will also not function as a normal clip and allow a shooter to chamber cartridges. However, a normal empty clip can be inserted from the bottom of the magazine and it will jam quite nicely and require manual extraction to remove it.