CIA's Remote Viewing Program and Watergate, The Parallel CIA Universes—1971, 1972, and Beyond Options

[Guest_David Guyatt_*]

Excuse me for butting in...but I think, Ashton, you have the wrong 'take' on David. He's on the good-guys side....I think you both have rather sardonic humor that is clashing - more so that you don't know who he is through his posts these many months you've been gone, and he doesn't know your style as he came after you left. Peace be unto you both. <Bong> End Round one - back to your corners.

I don't know, Peter. I'm starting to enjoy this.

You're a wicked man, Charles.

David

[Ashton Gray]

Yes, it sounds as though Hubbard may have been part of one of the Navy's MKULTRA related projects, BLUEBIRD, ARTICHOKE, CHATTER etc.

<PLONK!>

CIA must be peeking under swamp rocks these days looking for help.

Ashton Gray

This post has been edited by Ashton Gray: Sep 22 2007, 04:16 PM

[Ashton Gray]

I would hope Ashton is given some room to expand his CIA/Scientology links to Watergate. It's been a long time coming and I, personally, would like to see some flesh on the skeleton of the timeline.

Hi, Gary. I'm happy to expand on this topic in any way I can, as I can. There is an enormous amount of data, though, so instead of my just launching in and freewheeling, are there any particular points of it that you want to discuss or have specific questions about? I can't guarantee that there are any pat answers, but I'll do the best I can.

I will say that there certainly is one pivotal, seminal event (or non-event, to be, perhaps, more faithful to the facts) related to Watergate that also was pivotal in the annals of Scientology, each taking place over one fateful weekend in May of 1972. It was Memorial Day weekend: 26, 27, and 28 May 1972.

The most striking thing about this weekend in relation to Watergate is that there are claims of not just one pivotal event, but four: the so-called "Ameritas Dinner" attempted break-in at the Watergate on Friday night, an attempt at McGovern headquarters the same night, a second failed attempt at the Watergate on Saturday night, and purported third and allegedly "successful" break-in attempt at the Watergate on Sunday night. This, according to the fairy tale, was the infamous "first break-in" at the Watergate.

But there was no break-in at the Watergate. In the article linked to in that previous sentence, I have laid this out in detail and invited anyone to attempt to make the case that a break-in actually took place that week-end. The case can't be made. The fairy-tale is built on absolutely nothing but "confessions" of the perps without a particle of physical evidence. What actually happened is that a herd of Cuban CIA assets were flown into Washington, D.C. to put on a three-day long dog-and-pony show to make it seem that CIA operativeS G. Gordon Liddy, E. Howard Hunt, and James McCord, plus co-conspirator Alfred Baldwin were in Washington, D.C. with them that weekend. It was nothing but an elaborate hoax to later provide a three-day alibi for Liddy, Hunt, McCord, and Baldwin. They weren't there. It is a pack of transparent, utterly contradictory lies and hack spy fiction that no self-respecting pulp publisher would ever even entertain.

So just where the hell were Liddy, Hunt, McCord, and Baldwin for three days at the end of May, and what were they really doing?

Meanwhile, halfway across the world, the seminal event that took place in the universe of Scientologydom that same weekend is that its founder, L. Ron Hubbard, disappeared in Morroco. Poof. Gone. He had given over 3,000 public lectures between 1950 and Memorial Day weekend 1972. He never made another public appearance.

Isn't that a lovely synchronicity?

Exactly 15 weeks later, on 1 October 1972, while the world headlines were awash with Watergate, the Technical Services Division of the Central Intelligence Agency quietly, secretly issued Technical Service Contract 8473 to Scientology OT VII Harold "Hal" Puthoff to conduct for CIA "an expanded effort in parapsychology," which he would do in utter sealed secrecy with at least two other Scientology OTs, Ingo Swann and Pat Price.

And there are people who will practically beat their brains out trying to convince thee and me that there is some vast, great, empty void of disconnect between the CIA's involvement in the events and personnel of Watergate during 1971 and 1972, and the precisely parallel but oh-so-secretive machinations of CIA across that exact same time period in setting the stage for the 1 October 1972 contract that launched a black program that ran for over 25 years in complete secrecy.

But I'm not that big a damned fool.

Ashton

This post has been edited by Ashton Gray: Sep 23 2007, 05:43 AM

[Ashton Gray]

I was hoping not to be drawn into this thread...

It is my uncanny ability at mind control. Resistance is futile.

...as it is not much my expertise nor cup 'o tea.

Well, you're here, pal, posting. And the data is in this thread. It doesn't take either expertise or a cup 'o tea to read and understand the data. (Not that some aren't trying to turn it into the Mad Hatter's Tea Party.)

I don't need any convincing that the CIA and Hubbard / Scientology had some invisible hidden connections - I thought that decades ago.

Ding, ding, ding: back up the truck. "...the CIA and Hubbard / Scientology had some invisible hidden connections..."?

What evidence is there anywhere that Hubbard had "some invisible hidden connections" to CIA? Post it.

There ain't a scrap of any such evidence I've ever seen anywhere, and I certainly haven't posited any such unsupportable notion in this thread.

In fact every bit of evidence I have points a giant red glowing neon sign toward the exact opposite conclusion: that everything Hubbard was doing at all relevant times—at least from the 9 May 1950 publication of his seminal work, "Diantics: the Modern Science of Mental Health," and from all I can tell even as far back as "Excalibur"—was in direct contravention to any and all efforts at "mind control," or, as he put it in the excerpt I quoted above, to making men "more suggestible"—which was the precise purpose of everything CIA and U.S. military intelligence was engaged in by that time, in bed with the APA and the AMA.

His work was viciously attacked (at least publically) by those agencies and organizations from the outset.

I just posted evidence of the very early 1950 attempt by the U.S. intelligence scum to seize his work, and as he said himself "to kidnap" him and force him into developing his work for the U.S. government.

Look at just this tiny section of the Remote Viewing Timeline that I've posted links to time after time after time, this snippet covering just over four short weeks in 1950:

Thursday, 20 April 1950
CIA's mind control program Project BLUEBIRD is authorized. CIA-contracted psychiatrists begin secret experiments with ice-pick lobotomies, electroshock, hypnosis, pain, and drugs, including cocaine, heroin, and LSD. In coordination with the Veteran's Administration, U.S. military veterans are used as unwitting subjects for many of the experiments.

Tuesday, 9 May 1950
The book Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health by L. Ron Hubbard is released. It decries hypnosis, and describes techniques for safely accessing in the mind the contents of incidents involving unconsciousness, hypnosis, drugs, and pain. It becomes a bestseller.

Saturday, 27 May 1950
With Dianetics a bestseller, L. Ron Hubbard (right) is lecturing around the country when U.S. Naval Intelligence attempts to force him into service for the U.S. government. He refuses. The Office of Naval Intelligence in Washington, D.C. sends an officer to put L. Ron Hubbard into civilian service in the government to continue his researches on the mind. Hubbard says no. The officer says that if he refuses, Hubbard will be ordered back to active duty, since his Naval commission has not been terminated. Hubbard quickly takes advantage of a letter of permission he has from the Secretary of the Navy to resign his commission, thereby putting Dianetics and Scientology out of the reach and control of the U.S. government.

Are you kidding me, Peter? Are you pulling my leg with this coy "Hubbard/CIA connection" suggestion? It would take a boulder to miss being able to see that the two were in direct contravention of purpose, with Hubbard publishing techniques all over the world that flew straight into the teeth of everything CIA's BLUEBIRD and MK/ULTRA and all the rest of the psychiatry/CIA mind control ops were trying to accomplish.

From the same timeline, on 14 June 1965 Hubbard issued "Politics, Freedom From," declaring Scientology to be "nonpolitical and nonideological," and declaring it "free of any political connection or allegiance of any kind whatever." He said in the issue that the reason for the declaration was the continuing efforts of the U.S. government "to seize Scientology in the United States."

What does it take to make the point?

Maybe this entry from the timeline, repeated yet again, might start to make a faint light flicker:

Tuesday, 28 December 1965
L. Ron Hubbard issues a Scientology policy letter that forbids anyone connected to a "Suppressive Group" from being allowed onto the confidential Scientology upper levels unless and until the group is permanently disbanded. "Suppressive Groups" are defined as those that "seek to destroy Scientology" or specialize in "injuring or killing people or damaging their cases," or that "advocate the supppression of Mankind." They include "police spy organizations and government spy organizations" such as the CIA, IRS, FBI, National Security Agency (NSA), Department of Justice (DOJ), "or any other federal agency in any country."

An "invisible connection" between Hubbard and the CIA? Are you trying to make some kind of a joke with me, Peter?

I'm not much into the occult...

To HELL with "the occult" and all its minions and practitioners. This has NOTHING to do with "the occult." In fact, students on Scientology courses were forbidden to be involved in any occult practice or ritual. Yeah, that's right, you heard me, and I didn't stutter: Hal Puthoff, Ingo Swann, and Pat Price had gone all the way through all their training, all the way up through the OT Levels, sworn to subscribe to and abide by Scientology's "Training Course Rules and Regulations," which forbade any involvement in "the occult."

Should I put this into size 6 red letters, too?

The available evidence points only to one conclusion: CIA and its deformed Siamese twin intelligence agencies (including of course Puthoff's alma mater, NSA) slipped at least two and likely three (and possibly more) covert agents—Hal Puthoff, Ingo Swann, and Pat Price—in under the Scientology injunctions against goverment agents, in order to get access to the confidential Scientology OT Levels, then secretly "hired" their own covert agents starting 1 October 1972—after they had achieved the prescribed levels—to develop the so-called Remote Viewing using the information they had stolen.

Look at the numbers above on the odds of CIA "just happening" to choose three people for their Remote Viewing progam who "just happened" to be Scientology OTs. The notion is beyond astronomically ludicrous. It proves intent beyond any doubt whatsoever.

How you possibly can factor Hubbard into that is beyond the most polyester stretch of my ken, since I have pointed out repeatedly that Hubbard disappeared 15 weeks earlier, over Memorial Day Weekend 1972.

Do I need to get a bullhorn?

Ashton

This post has been edited by Ashton Gray: Sep 23 2007, 06:04 AM

[Guest_David Guyatt_*]

Ashton wrote (post#33):

Quote:

Isn't that a lovely synchronicity?

Unquote

Synchronicity being a term developed by Carl Jung – your very own “babbling baboon”.....

David

This post has been edited by David Guyatt: Sep 23 2007, 09:48 PM

[Guest_David Guyatt_*]

Ash wrote:

Quote:

To HELL with "the occult" and all its minions and practitioners. This has NOTHING to do with "the occult." In fact, students on Scientology courses were forbidden to be involved in any occult practice or ritual. Yeah, that's right, you heard me, and I didn't stutter: Hal Puthoff, Ingo Swann, and Pat Price had gone all the way through all their training, all the way up through the OT Levels, sworn to subscribe to and abide by Scientology's "Training Course Rules and Regulations," which forbade any involvement in "the occult."

Unquote

Priests of the Roman Catholic church also are sworn to abide by strict rules of behaviour, but this doesn't stop them from engaging in all sorts of wicked hanky-panky. Rather, it often seems to promulgate that sort of behaviour.

Of course, Ash, you can't demonstrate that RV/RI does not have it's roots in the occult -- despite the similarities of technique and the fact that those involved in the occult were engaged in such practises a very long time before Scientology was even thought of.

A case in point would be the practise of Voudon and it's Haitian irruption of spiking dolls with pins to cause injury or death to the person the doll symbolised. Known to the world over as "Remote Influencing".

Or the prehistoric Shamanistic practise of entering the timeless world - so called astral projection. Known to the world over as "Remote Viewing".

One might also ask why Scientology felt the need to prohibit members involvement in the occult. Was it because Scientology's techniques were so similar to those practised by the wicked wizards that they had to cauterise any possible connection? History is littered with people and entities that rip off things and present them as uniquely their own.

David

This post has been edited by David Guyatt: Sep 23 2007, 09:49 PM

[Guest_David Guyatt_*]

Ash wrote:

Quote:

To HELL with "the occult" and all its minions and practitioners. This has NOTHING to do with "the occult." In fact, students on Scientology courses were forbidden to be involved in any occult practice or ritual. Yeah, that's right, you heard me, and I didn't stutter: Hal Puthoff, Ingo Swann, and Pat Price had gone all the way through all their training, all the way up through the OT Levels, sworn to subscribe to and abide by Scientology's "Training Course Rules and Regulations," which forbade any involvement in "the occult."

Unquote

Priests of the Roman Catholic church also are sworn to abide by strict rules of behaviour, but this doesn't stop them from engaging in all sorts of wicked hanky-panky. Rather, it often seems to promulgate that sort of behaviour.

Of course, Ash, you can't demonstrate that RV/RI does not have it's roots in the occult -- despite the similarities of technique and the fact that those involved in the occult were engaged in such practises a very long time before Scientology was even thought of.

A case in point would be the practise of Voudon and it's Haitian irruption of spiking dolls with pins to cause injury or death to the person the doll symbolised. Known to the world over as "Remote Influencing".

Or the prehistoric Shamanistic practise of entering the timeless world - so called astral projection. Known to the world over as "Remote Viewing".

One might also ask why Scientology felt the need to prohibit members involvement in the occult. Was it because Scientology's techniques were so similar to those practised by the wicked wizards that they had to cauterise any possible connection? History is littered with people and entities that rip off things and present them as uniquely their own.

David

This post has been edited by David Guyatt: Sep 23 2007, 09:49 PM

[Guest_David Guyatt_*]

***

This post has been edited by David Guyatt: Sep 23 2007, 09:38 PM

[Dawn Meredith]

I have always had an interest in all things "psychic", as well as much revulsion for the CIA (since beginning study of the Kennedy assassination four decades ago), so yesterday I did some net reading on RV, CIA and Scientology. Hubbard was not mentioned at all, (aside from noting that he gave no public appearances after Memorial Day 72), nor were there any references to the occult . I was at first trying to see just what these guys could actually DO remotely and got a few of those questions answered, (tho the bulk of it is locked away for reasons of NATIONAL SECURITY. ) (???)

I hope this thread can get back to its original intent and this bickering be put aside.

Ashton, it would appear that the actual RV program was begun by Scientology, with one of those three (Swann maybe?) having first been NSA, something forbidden by Scientology. Then the three joined forces with the CIA. NOT Hubbard. I saw not a word about that. Swann, Price and Harold Putoff (can't remember how it's spelled, sorry). I have heard Ed Dames on coast to coast, (only a tiny bit as I utilize that show to help me sleep) and he was lying about these three being involved with Scientology.

What became clear to me is that these guys sold out to the CIA in return for certain things (which are irrelevent here).

Do you know the RV ability level reached?

Why were some Scientology members trying to become RV experts (if you know)?

Finally, if RV works why can't they get bin Laden? (IF he even exists) Or the unibomber when he was at large?

I am sincerely trying to understand what those who claim RV "powers" can actually do.

Merci.

Dawn

[Guest_David Guyatt_*]

Dawn,

One interesting character who might be worth a little research and reading about is Colonel John B Alexander and his article in the Army's MILITARY REVIEW journal entitled: "The New Mental Battlefield", in which he states that telepathic abilities can be honed to intefere with the brain's electrical activity in relation to the development of so called "soft kill" technologies. Armen Victorian wrote about this in LOBSTER back in 1993. Alexander has also written an interesting book called "The Warrior's Edge" in which he expands upon his Project Jedi aimed at making a super soldier.

Another charatcter you might want to browse is Major General Al Stubblebine who has also strongly advocated the use of so called "Psi" powers for military training and appllication. Stubllebine was formerly the Commanding officer of the U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM), a powerrful figure in his day.

On Ingo Swann, youy may wish to scoot over to his website: http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/Superpowers.html and browse around, noting the "femine rising" picture that greets you (that obviously doesn't contain even an iota of occult symbolism, naturally -- other than the triangles, the psychic eye, the atrological imagery, the diamond body etc). You could also click his "Remote Viewing - The Real Story" and - disregarding the symbolic picture that greets you, especially the three arches, read his book that is freelly available. His "Superpowers/ET" link has an especially nice Mandala to greet you - asubject upon which Carl Jung was a recognised expert...

David

This post has been edited by David Guyatt: Sep 23 2007, 09:51 PM

[Ashton Gray]

Ashton, it would appear that the actual RV program was begun by Scientology, with one of those three (Swann maybe?) having first been NSA, something forbidden by Scientology.

Hi, Dawn. There appears to be some confusion in terminology and sequence. (Of course the ocean of disinformation out there has been designed to confuse and mislead as much as possible, so that's no surprise.)

"Remote Viewing" (RV) was not "begun by Scientology;" it is nothing but a label that CIA and its cohorts dreamed up to hide the fact that what they were using had been stolen from Scientology. It's a very important distinction. The term is a tawdry disguise, and it didn't even really get into circulation in a big way until decades after the CIA set up their covert program in 1972, and, really, until after the program had been partially exposed, which didn't happen until 1995. It was only then that CIA trotted out their poster boy for "RV," Ed Dames, and some of their other disinformation agents to spread as much manure as far and deep as possible, claiming that was "RV."

So as always, the CIA has set up a "twosy" to confuse hell out of everybody that comes close to it: there is what they actually were using for almost three decades in secret (which three Scientology OTs set up for them and that nobody to this day has access to), and then there's the K-Mart line of "RV" products being flogged by Dames and the other snake-oil salesmen peddling manure by the truckload, complete with a laughable phony "official" RV manual that they shoveled out all over the world.

"RV" is a term whose origins are contested, but by and large is attributed to Ingo Swann. According to Swann's own account, he coined the term on 8 December 1971 during an out-of-body (OOB) experiment with Janet Mitchell for the American Society for Psychical Research (ASPR). (Does that organization's name sound familiar? It's one that W. Clement Stone was a significant contributor to. And of course during this period of December 1971, Swann's primary cut-out/contact was CIA's Cleve Backster in New York, whose lab was handy to the safehouse apartment that Anthony "Tony" Ulasewicz had set up in New York just months earlier, around July 1971, at 321 East 48th Street, Apartment 11-C, under "Operation Sandwedge," precursor to Hunt and Liddy's "Operation Gemstone." Are we having fun yet?)

The Scientology OT Levels were created way back in the 1960s as the most advanced part of Hubbard's continuing efforts to provide a route toward spiritual freedom, and in "Politics, Freedom From," 1965, he emphatically said:

"Scientologists may be members of any political group on this planet without restraint only so long as these individuals or that group do not attempt to seize Scientology for their own warlike ends and so make it unworkable or distasteful by invidious connection."

Given that CIA's "RV" had no other purpose than "warlike ends," it's an extreme twist of reality to say that "the RV program was begun by Scientology."

It would be more or less accurate to say that RV was begun by Scientologists—who of course were covert agents of the U.S. government when they went in to study Scientology. It sure as hell wasn't begun "by Scientology," and the vast propensity of evidence over the years following the CIA's malappropriation of the Scientology technology is that no one in official Scientologydom had any real idea of what the hell was going on—though they certainly seemed to know that something was going on. Scientology's Guardian's Office filed a blizzard of Freedom of Information Act suits against the federal government in the few years between 1 October 1972 and 8 July 1977. On 8 July 1977, of course, the FBI raided Scientology Guardian's Office headquarters on two coasts and squashed "official Scientologydom" like a bug. That very effectively got rid of the pestiferous FOIA suits, all of which ultimately were dismissed, largely on grounds of "national security."

Then the three joined forces with the CIA. NOT Hubbard. I saw not a word about that. Swann, Price and Harold Putoff (can't remember how it's spelled, sorry).

I believe a far more accurate analysis is that at all relevant times Puthoff, Swann, and Price were working for CIA and its ugly sisters, pertinently including their entrance into Scientology as covert agents. Swann had been in intelligence in the military and had gone on to work for the United Nations before getting into Scientology. Puthoff had been NSA. It should be clear from what already has been posted in this thread that they never would have gotten onto the OT Levels at all if they had made full disclosure. (There also is evidence that they had inside help from other plants within the organization, but I'm not getting into all that at the moment.)

I have heard Ed Dames on coast to coast, (only a tiny bit as I utilize that show to help me sleep) and he was lying about these three being involved with Scientology.

Yes, in one instance he lied most infamously about it. He had to. He had been caught flat-footed on the air. There is a memorialization of that event on the web at a page called "CST and the CIA".

[STRANGE INTERLUDE: If you read that page, note one particular quote of note from CIA's disinformation specialist Dames, claiming that Swann's "discovery" of RV purportedly was a result of Swann having "developed an accurate model of how the collective unconscious (emphasis added) communicates (target) information to conscious awareness." I invite you to go back through this thread and see who else here is busy beating CIA's "collective unconscious" disinformation drum. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.]

What became clear to me is that these guys sold out to the CIA in return for certain things (which are irrelevent here).

By "these guys," if I understand you correctly, you mean Puthoff, Swann, and Price, and while that's one possible interpretation of the facts, I suppose, I believe that the more one comes to understand the sequence of events and the connections of these men, it becomes very clear that they were in the pocket of CIA and friends at all relevant times.

I can't address your imponderables. I can address events for which there are facts of record.

Ashton

This post has been edited by Ashton Gray: Sep 23 2007, 05:15 PM

[Guest_David Guyatt_*]

I’ll have a stab at the remaining imponderables, with the caveat that I need to apologise in advance for any inaccuracies that may intrude, as it has been some years since I looked at this subject in any detail.

On Remote Viewing, one apparent ambition was to be able to remotely spy on other nations and their leaders. It appears that Projects Grillflame /Stargate /Sunstreak (et al) were involved in a range of espionage targets.

Similar military-intelligence research programmes were in operation in the United Kingdom as well as the USA.

On Remote Influencing, there was a discussion between (I think) Stubblebine and another individual (who’s name escapes me at present) in which it was revealed that a successful attempt had been made to remotely kill a pig (the physiology of the animal being quite similar to the human, you can see where this was going -- if true). Other ambitions were, I believe, aimed at influencing a person’s moods, thoughts and other physiological and emotional states.

For the record, “Collective Unconscious” was a term coined by the Swiss psychologist Carl Gustav Jung, to denote the collective psychology of the species in contradistinction to Freud’s emphasis on individual psychology.

David

This post has been edited by David Guyatt: Sep 25 2007, 09:56 AM

[Dawn Meredith]

Ashton, it would appear that the actual RV program was begun by Scientology, with one of those three (Swann maybe?) having first been NSA, something forbidden by Scientology.

Hi, Dawn. There appears to be some confusion in terminology and sequence. (Of course the ocean of disinformation out there has been designed to confuse and mislead as much as possible, so that's no surprise.)

"Remote Viewing" (RV) was not "begun by Scientology;" it is nothing but a label that CIA and its cohorts dreamed up to hide the fact that what they were using had been stolen from Scientology. It's a very important distinction. The term is a tawdry disguise, and it didn't even really get into circulation in a big way until decades after the CIA set up their covert program in 1972, and, really, until after the program had been partially exposed, which didn't happen until 1995. It was only then that CIA trotted out their poster boy for "RV," Ed Dames, and some of their other disinformation agents to spread as much manure as far and deep as possible, claiming that was "RV."

So as always, the CIA has set up a "twosy" to confuse hell out of everybody that comes close to it: there is what they actually were using for almost three decades in secret (which three Scientology OTs set up for them and that nobody to this day has access to), and then there's the K-Mart line of "RV" products being flogged by Dames and the other snake-oil salesmen peddling manure by the truckload, complete with a laughable phony "official" RV manual that they shoveled out all over the world.

"RV" is a term whose origins are contested, but by and large is attributed to Ingo Swann. According to Swann's own account, he coined the term on 8 December 1971 during an out-of-body (OOB) experiment with Janet Mitchell for the American Society for Psychical Research (ASPR). (Does that organization's name sound familiar? It's one that W. Clement Stone was a significant contributor to. And of course during this period of December 1971, Swann's primary cut-out/contact was CIA's Cleve Backster in New York, whose lab was handy to the safehouse apartment that Anthony "Tony" Ulasewicz had set up in New York just months earlier, around July 1971, at 321 East 48th Street, Apartment 11-C, under "Operation Sandwedge," precursor to Hunt and Liddy's "Operation Gemstone." Are we having fun yet?)

The Scientology OT Levels were created way back in the 1960s as the most advanced part of Hubbard's continuing efforts to provide a route toward spiritual freedom, and in "Politics, Freedom From," 1965, he emphatically said:

"Scientologists may be members of any political group on this planet without restraint only so long as these individuals or that group do not attempt to seize Scientology for their own warlike ends and so make it unworkable or distasteful by invidious connection."

Given that CIA's "RV" had no other purpose than "warlike ends," it's an extreme twist of reality to say that "the RV program was begun by Scientology."

It would be more or less accurate to say that RV was begun by Scientologists—who of course were covert agents of the U.S. government when they went in to study Scientology. It sure as hell wasn't begun "by Scientology," and the vast propensity of evidence over the years following the CIA's malappropriation of the Scientology technology is that no one in official Scientologydom had any real idea of what the hell was going on—though they certainly seemed to know that something was going on. Scientology's Guardian's Office filed a blizzard of Freedom of Information Act suits against the federal government in the few years between 1 October 1972 and 8 July 1977. On 8 July 1977, of course, the FBI raided Scientology Guardian's Office headquarters on two coasts and squashed "official Scientologydom" like a bug. That very effectively got rid of the pestiferous FOIA suits, all of which ultimately were dismissed, largely on grounds of "national security."

Then the three joined forces with the CIA. NOT Hubbard. I saw not a word about that. Swann, Price and Harold Putoff (can't remember how it's spelled, sorry).

I believe a far more accurate analysis is that at all relevant times Puthoff, Swann, and Price were working for CIA and its ugly sisters, pertinently including their entrance into Scientology as covert agents. Swann had been in intelligence in the military and had gone on to work for the United Nations before getting into Scientology. Puthoff had been NSA. It should be clear from what already has been posted in this thread that they never would have gotten onto the OT Levels at all if they had made full disclosure. (There also is evidence that they had inside help from other plants within the organization, but I'm not getting into all that at the moment.)

I have heard Ed Dames on coast to coast, (only a tiny bit as I utilize that show to help me sleep) and he was lying about these three being involved with Scientology.

Yes, in one instance he lied most infamously about it. He had to. He had been caught flat-footed on the air. There is a memorialization of that event on the web at a page called "CST and the CIA".

[STRANGE INTERLUDE: If you read that page, note one particular quote of note from CIA's disinformation specialist Dames, claiming that Swann's "discovery" of RV purportedly was a result of Swann having "developed an accurate model of how the collective unconscious (emphasis added) communicates (target) information to conscious awareness." I invite you to go back through this thread and see who else here is busy beating CIA's "collective unconscious" disinformation drum. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.]

What became clear to me is that these guys sold out to the CIA in return for certain things (which are irrelevent here).

By "these guys," if I understand you correctly, you mean Puthoff, Swann, and Price, and while that's one possible interpretation of the facts, I suppose, I believe that the more one comes to understand the sequence of events and the connections of these men, it becomes very clear that they were in the pocket of CIA and friends at all relevant times.

I can't address your imponderables. I can address events for which there are facts of record.

Ashton

Thanks for the clarification. And I did read that page you linked here yesterday. (The Ed Dames Art Bell expose). So Scientology did not call it remote viewing, but it sounds like this is what it was. I have read that no one got very good at this (but I have also read that much of the information is censored). And it's clear from what I have read that the CIA's use was for war and other such evil.
Yes by "those guy" I meant Puthoff, Swann and Price. So while in the employ of US intelligence they managed to move up in the ranks in Scientology, and, it would appear, they thought something via this discipline could advance the war machine's status/ability. What exactly did they steal from Scientology?

Having just scratched the surface here it's all a bit of a jumble. The links to the Nixon White House Watergate and the CIA are however just overwhelming. (I read through the 1972 timeline again yesterday).

Still....what were they able to actually do? (regardless of what it's called.)

[Dawn Meredith]

Dawn,

One interesting character who might be worth a little research and reading about is Colonel John B Alexander and his article in the Army's MILITARY REVIEW journal entitled: "The New Mental Battlefield", in which he states that telepathic abilities can be honed to intefere with the brain's electrical activity in relation to the development of so called "soft kill" technologies. Armen Victorian wrote about this in LOBSTER back in 1993. Alexander has also written an interesting book called "The Warrior's Edge" in which he expands upon his Project Jedi aimed at making a super soldier.

Another charatcter you might want to browse is Major General Al Stubblebine who has also strongly advocated the use of so called "Psi" powers for military training and appllication. Stubllebine was formerly the Commanding officer of the U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM), a powerrful figure in his day.

On Ingo Swann, youy may wish to scoot over to his website: http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/Superpowers.html and browse around, noting the "femine rising" picture that greets you (that obviously doesn't contain even an iota of occult symbolism, naturally -- other than the triangles, the psychic eye, the atrological imagery, the diamond body etc). You could also click his "Remote Viewing - The Real Story" and - disregarding the symbolic picture that greets you, especially the three arches, read his book that is freelly available. His "Superpowers/ET" link has an especially nice Mandala to greet you - asubject upon which Carl Jung was a recognised expert...

David

Thanks David, I will take a look at this stuff. I have looked at Swann's website, a lot to see there. I read a bit of "Remote Viewing-The Real Story", but he's rather hard to take.

Of course the CIA and the powers of the darkside have been bedfellows a long time. Gehlen and co. were no strangers to occult practices and nothing's gotten better at top intelligence levels.

Dawn

[Ashton Gray]

Thanks for the clarification.

You're very welcome. I'll always answer any sincere questions to the best of my ability.

So Scientology did not call it remote viewing, but it sounds like this is what it was.

From my own understanding—for further clarification—anything that the world today calls or thinks of as "Remote Viewing" (essentially an ability to perceive in locations that are remote—distant—from where one's physical body is) was only one by-product of the Scientology "Operating Thetan" levels, whose purpose was to rehabilitate the native abilities of the spiritual being ("thetan," in Scientology parlance) in knowingly and causatively operating exterior to, and without dependency on, a physical homo sapiens body.

The stated "Operating Thetan" abilities were not limited just to present-time remote perception of the physical universe so stressed by CIA's Remote Viewing disinformation hacks. Here is the stated ability for Scientology's Level OT VIII (all-caps in the original):

ABILITY TO BE AT CAUSE KNOWINGLY AND AT WILL OVER THOUGHT, LIFE, FORM, MATTER, ENERGY, SPACE AND TIME, SUBJECTIVE AND OBJECTIVE

That's rather comprehensive, wouldn't you say? In fact, given, arguendo, a conviction by CIA (or any power-mad agency, government, or despot with unlimited resources, e.g. tax money) that any such state might be attainable, or even partially attainable, I can't think of a single law or ethical or moral code that they wouldn't trample to dust in order to secure a monopoly on the technology.

Then put all that into the context of the Cold War. Then put it further into the context of 1972's "Controlled Offensive Behavior—USSR," which I quote here in pertinent part from the Remote Viewing Timeline (emphasis added):

Saturday, 1 July 1972
The classified Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) report entitled "Controlled Offensive Behavior—USSR" is published, though its findings have been known by top personnel for months. In part, it states: "The Soviet Union is well aware of the benefits and applications of parapsychology research. ...Soviet knowledge in this field is superior to that of the U.S. ...The potential applications of focusing mental influences on an enemy through hypnotic telepathy have surely occurred to the Soviets... . Control and manipulation of the human consciousness must be considered a primary goal. ...Soviet efforts in the field of psi research, sooner or later, might enable them to do some of the following: ( a ) Know the contents of top secret US documents, the movements of our troops and ships and the location and nature of our military installations ( b ) Mould the thoughts of key US military and civilian leaders at a distance ( c ) Cause the instant death of any US official at a distance ( d ) Disable, at a distance, US military equipment of all types, including spacecraft."

I've made bold the phrase "though its findings have been known by top personnel for months" because it is a crucial subtlety of the timeline that easily can be overlooked at peril.

The date of publication given for "Controlled Offensive Behavior—USSR" is 1 July 1972, which very conveniently is after the Watergate arrests. But go back in the timeline and find the "information cut-off date" for this publication. It is Monday, 31 January 1972. All around this time period both Hunt and Liddy have been meeting secretly with and having phone conversations with senior CIA officials—who of course had been in possession of all the strategic data and conclusions in the report long before any order was issued to create such a report. Within mere weeks of this "information cut-off date," Hunt and Liddy fly to Miami and meet with Bernard Barker and other CIA-connected Cubans, and Liddy "recruits" CIA's James McCord.

Did I use the word "subtlety"? Really, when it's all laid out, it's about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face. Repeatedly.

I have read that no one got very good at this (but I have also read that much of the information is censored).

I'll refrain from comment.

And it's clear from what I have read that the CIA's use was for war and other such evil.

Well— Yes. It's what those people do.

What exactly did they steal from Scientology?

Hubbard's confidential copyrighted works. The Scientology OT Levels were secret. Access to those levels was by invitation only, which only was extended to Scientologists with a proven track record of high ethical standards within the Scientology framework of ethics (on which subject there is a considerable body of material issued by Hubbard).

The levels also were protected under international copyright law as "unpublished works." For a rather extensive coverage of the copyrights matter—including information on what became of Hubbard's copyrighted works after his 1972 disappearance—I recommend this linked article and its supplied links to the copyright records: "Over 10,000 Copyrights Owned by the Church of Spiritual Technology (CST)".

Hubbard had emphatically forbade access to copies of those unpublished confidential works by any agent or agency of the U.S. (or any) government, as I've already documented in this thread.

Now, without putting too fine a point on it, it's necessary and germane to mention here that an integral part of Scientology—driven home most resoundingly in a Scientology policy letter called "Keeping Scientology Working," which apparently is required reading as the first item on every Scientology course—is that results are obtained only when the exact materials of Scientology are applied exactly as written, without alteration.

Without reaching any conclusion as to the validity of the above, it nonetheless is central to the entire issue: if, in fact, CIA and company believed that such states as promised by the OT Levels might be attainable through application of Scientology, there was one, and only one way to find out: get their hands on the exact materials of the secret OT Levels. And that's exactly what Hubbard had absolutely forbidden.

In short, there was no other possible way for CIA to get the OT Levels except to steal them.

If CIA, in conjunction with other intelligence entities (not necessarily all exclusively of the United States), knowingly and willfully sent covert agents into Scientology to access and make illegal copies of these copyrighted works, that's bad enough.

But the weight of evidence tends to suggest strongly that methods and means to effect such theft—and, perhaps more pertinently, to be able to "enjoy" the fruits of such heinous criminality for decades—entailed acts reaching to the most vicious, conscienceless, ineffable crimes known to man, on an international scale.

That's a little bit bigger than "a third-rate burglary."

It's little wonder that it has taken over three decades even to begin to peel back the scab. And what's underneath ain't pretty.

Still....what were they able to actually do? (regardless of what it's called.)

As you noted above, much of the information is still a closely held secret. Here, though, e.g., is a "success story" written by Hal Puthoff sometime in 1971 (around the time Ulasewicz was setting up the safe house in New York under "Operation Sandwedge"):

"I had seen a copy of 'Ole Doc Methuselah' written by Ron [L. Ron Hubbard] and decided I wanted one. I heard they were on sale at Delta Meter Company, which I knew was located somewhere near Celebrity Centre, although I did not know exactly where. One evening as I was walking away from Celebrity Centre I decided I wanted to know where Delta was so I could go there the next day. As I passed the building I knew it was the one. I wanted to go in and check but the doors were locked. I could see there was a directory on the wall about 30 feet away and parallel to my vision where I couldn't read it. So I closed my eyes and intended to read the directory. In front of me I saw the directory and read 'Delta Meter Company, Room 216'. A couple of days later I checked it out and found the directory said just that." —Dr. Harold Puthoff "Success Story" after Scientology OT VII, 1971

That goes only to an instance of the kind of "remote perception" that Ingo Swann, later that same year, would dub "remote viewing."

Of more interest to me—and I believe of far more interest to CIA at the time, which of course is completely downplayed by the phony "RV" disinformation hacks like Dames—are the experiments of record in telekinesis and remote influence that Swann was involved in during the latter part of 1971 and through the first half of 1972 (while Hunt and Liddy were rigging up Watergate). It's important to keep in mind that all of these feats by Ingo Swann that I'm referring to came after he had done the Scientology OT Levels.

Many of the accounts of Swann's experiments already are in the the Remote Viewing Timeline, so I don't see any point in rehashing them here, but they include Swann's repeatable experiments with CIA's Cleve Backster of remote influence on plants and repeatable influence on a piece of graphite hooked up to a Wheatstone bridge. (That just happens to be the same device that's at the core of the Scientology E-meter—imagine that. These experiments with CIA's Backster, by the way, took place in September of 1971, right after Hunt and Liddy had stayed at the Hotel Pierre on the night of 3 September in New York, just a few blocks from Cleve Backster's lab, while CIA-connected Cubans were staging a dog-and-pony show out in L.A. at the office of Dr. Lewis Fielding so that Liddy and Hunt later could infamously "admit" they had really been out there with the Cubans. Doncha' know.)

Then followed in late 1971 Swann's thermistor experiments in telekinesis with Gertrude Schmeidler, the reports of which electrified the intelligence community. (And, by the way, that's precisely when Liddy and Hunt began putting together "Operation Gemstone" as the successor to "Operation Sandwedge.")

Then, of course, there is the much heralded event on 6 June 1972 in which Swann mentally affected a a supercooled magnetometer encased in solid concrete five feet beneath the foundation of the Varian Hall of Physics at Stanford University.

It probably would be unseemly of me to mention that just 10 days after this event, five CIA operatives entered the Watergate Hotel and managed to get themselves "caught" in a "third-rate burglary"—even though "getting caught" required CIA's James McCord to go back and tape the door twice.

Ashton

This post has been edited by Ashton Gray: Sep 24 2007, 06:23 PM