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The Holland Shooter


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#31 Bernice Moore

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 02:22 PM

Hi Duncan:

A few thoughts, nothing in stone, as usual.

You mention that Don stated this shooter was close to the Files spot..words to that effect...

Files states that he was only 8 to 10 feet from the corner of the fence, seen closest to the steps..

Sam Holland in the Mark Lane clip.....and some of the men with him on the overpass mention the area was 20 to 30 feet towards
them on the overpass. Not towards the corner and steps closer to the
Zapruder pedestal...

The many footprints found in the mud, behind the fence and the mud seen scraped off the bumpers of the cars.
As seen below, were a distance up towards the overpass ,from the closest corner to Zapruder..

Each car is approximately 5 feet wide, each car parked, has a two feet approx distance on each side, to enable the driver
and passenger to get out of said car.....

As is seen on Sam Hollands map......approximately a 2 feet distance between the corner fence and the first car, then
the 2 feet opening on the far side to be able for the passenger to get out....etc.

Now the map shows 4 cars......The muddy footprints, he has drawn between the 2nd and 3rd car....or someone has...therefore the
mathematics would be........

2 feet from fence....5 foot wide car...2 feet on the other side also...

Times 3 equals approximately 16 feet........Now Sam does say in his film with Mark Lane the footprints were in front of the 3rd car
but on the map they are seen drawn mainy in front of the 2nd and 3nd car......who knows where he stood after walking back
and forth so many times, to finally take a shot, it's hard to decide with a positive....given several feet between each way..

The Nix below which is a more direct view shows the tree and the hatman....is this the same man that you are viewing,
or is this a different shooter, spotter whatever.....

Another from Skaggs show a more front view, seen after.....

Now note, the sign and the light pole.......As seen in the Lane video, when they walk around the fence to the spot....
Where they saw the smoke drift out from under the trees, the sign is closer on their right, and he states JFK was hit
just as the limo got to this side, the left of the lamp post.......see photo also.....

You have the ability to catch a frame from films, as you have so kindly done in the past.....

When you find the time, or anyone who is able to...perhaps if you catch the frame from where Sam and Mark Lane
are standing behind the fence, you will be able to catch the spot in front of the sign, and the lamp post as shown..

I am thinking the distance where the shot took place from,
was much closer to the overpass as the R.R men stated..

The Allen photo taken after,shows more of a perspective re the distance from the step fence corner, to the lamp
post,and appears more than 8 to 10 feet...imo..

As I said just some thoughts... :blink:

Confusion reigns...

B..

Edited by Bernice Moore, 12 March 2007 - 02:26 PM.


#32 Don Roberdeau

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 02:36 PM

By the way, this study seems to coincide for the (Holland) shooter location.

http://www.jfklancer...ix-needham.html

Yes it does Miles. Rick Needham and I agreed at the time that both his location and my location were and are the same. Rick since then, and as far as I know, has changed his stance in claiming ( along with Bill Miller ) that the Nix figure is actually at the left of the tree as we view it, and that the Nix perspective is misleading and can not be compared with my Moorman shooter location perspective. Rick seems to have vanished from the face of the Earth, so I don'tknow what his view is at this moment in time is. My view is that Bill and Rick are profoundly wrong in their perspective analysis.

Duncan


Ducan,

Thanks for this explanation. Of course, you have seen the Roberbeau map. If you blow this map up for detail a lot of different photo perspective is referable. It would be really great if someone could plot the points of locus for each theoretically placed shooter as photographically claimed by Bill, Rick, Jack, Chris or anybody else with reference to the Roberbeau map. What are the trajectories? For example, a direct line of sight down the plane of the picket fence intersects Umbrella man. Would a shooter allow the tree trunk to pass by in front of & through his field of fire. Possibly so, if he anticipated same. Any thoughts?

Miles


....Good Day Miles.... The following theoretical trajectories were provided on the Dealey Plaza professionally surveyed map some years ago....

http://members.aol.c...RAJECTORIES.gif

....and....

http://members.aol.c...TORIESviews.gif

....On the maps, the image seen in MOORMAN #5 (red-labeled "GKS", physically west of the tree, but MOORMAN #5 photographically-seen slightly right of the tree, that corresponds to Zf-315-316) is on a line-of-sight that intersects nearly the exact same location where the HSCA determined an assassin fired from, and, where photographic evidences captured seconds after MOORMAN #5 do not show an image in that exact same location.

An aside.... I have rarely said much about JAMES FILES claims, having personally discarded his claims years ago after many private discussions with researchers.... A few years back there were some paintings, reportedly, done by FILES (I think being ebay auctioned), and one of the paintings showed the picket fence top, Elm Street, the "Thornton" sign at a very steep oblique angle, a lamp post, etc, that I used to photogrammatically calculate the location spot the painting was depicted from---which, IIRC, calculated to many yards west of the HSCA-determined, MOORMAN #5-seen, "GKS" assassin's location.... Still have that FILES painting calculating the perspective location if anyone is interested---it use to be in, and may still be within, my AOL small public JFK file that the DP maps are also within.... http://members.aol.com/droberdeau/JFK

Best Regards in Research,

Don


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Edited by Don Roberdeau, 12 March 2007 - 04:43 PM.


#33 Duncan MacRae

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 03:11 PM

Hi Bernice, yes it's the same position as in the Nix frame which you uploaded, which Rick Needham agreed on before much later doing an unexpected 360 degrees about turn to agree with Bills hypothesis. I'm not at home at the moment, so I can't capture the Mark Lane frame which shows Holland at his spot. Maybe Chris could do this and do an analysis of the locations to tie them up or not, and if not, i'll do it on Friday... Chris?

Duncan

#34 Charles Black

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 04:17 PM

Hello All

I realize that this WILL seem to be a ridiculous question by many, but due to my lack of experience and understanding of photo interpretation, I would appreciate a reply if even my question is considered a fantasy.

If there were NO Zilm as a refernce or timing point that could be considered, how would it effect your interpretation of the two shooting positions from what these depictions seem to imply ? Could there have been two simultaneous shots considered as if two shooters were firing on direct command ?

I am not attempting to divert this thread into another discussion of Z film authenticity, and I wont. But my question is serious and can be answered regardless of your individual interpretations of the Z film timing and authenticity.

As a result of "these" images which seem to me to portray two differet shooters, would the "absence" of the Z film contribute in one way or another to your conclusions.

Please excuse my genuine lack of filming knowledge,and this may certainly be an ignorant question arising from that; but this IS a sincere question and not an attempt on my part to introduce or promote contradiction !

Charlie Black

#35 Bill Miller

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 05:37 PM

I disagree here with you Bill as I have done over the last 5 years or so. If you look at the Mark Lane clip with Holland, you can clearly see that he is in the location of my shooter. This is not a perspective error.


Duncan, I have been in Dealey Plaza with Mark Lane and I know exactly where Holland took him. I have also gone over this in great detail with Ed Hoffman and I know exactly where Hoffman places the man at the fence. Rick Needham showed a gif years ago where it appeared to have someone's head seen over the top of the fence in the Nix film. That location is also the same one I have been talking about. Thed area where you claim to see a torso in the Moorman photo has no one in it in the Nix film. All I can tell you is that what ever it is that you think you see in the Lane clip is an illusion whereas you have misjudged the distance from the corner of the fence to the shooter location.



Just look at the Mark Lane clip at the heads of Lane and Hoffman. There is little difference in the head size in comparison to the shooter. As you may remember, or not, Rick Janowitz at my request, kindly took some photographs for me of him standing in this location from the Moorman perspective, and the results clearly showed that the shooter was not too large. Rick I believe is 5ft 11

Duncan


The rules of perspective are solid. I have not seen a capture of the heads you are talking about concerning Lane and Holland, but to validate your observation, then you must show a view of them from the Moorman location and be sure to scale the magnification of the knoll to match that of Moorman's photo so to know how the heads relate in size to what you think you see in Mary's Polaroid.

#36 Bill Miller

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 05:44 PM

Bill: " the camera and film that Zapruder used did not and could not have captured any part of a bullet in flight, nor any trails it may have created while in flight."

Again : "could not have captured any part of a bullet in flight" it depends on whether the bullet travels towards, away, or across the fov.

Nothing you say changes the fact that the bullet creates compression and depcompression in a shape and structure well ducumented. This does not travel at the speed of the bullet. As it travels through a mist of fine droplets through which light shines and light that is reflected through it off a back ground surface (in this case of the opposite spectrum (red-green)) it alters the direction and frequency of the photon wave forms. These photons. like any other photons striking the emulsion of the film surface causes a reaction. There is no magical filter that differentiates between all these different photons and says to the emulsion, 'hang on, this one comes from that particular effect and therefore please don't react to it.' Sorry, Bill, but that's just how it is.


John - there were numerous shots being fired at the limo ... show me where their shock wave or any other sign of them in flight is seen on any assassination film? It's nonsense to expect the assasination films to offer such detail on this matter.

Edited by Bill Miller, 12 March 2007 - 05:44 PM.


#37 Bill Miller

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 05:50 PM

Thx, Bill,

On expanding the map, I found a scale rule (by feet) on Don's map & noticed that it purports to be a professional survey map, professionally surveyed. Is this, then, not so? :blink:

Of course, an overhead photo would be best, but is there one?

I think that Don's map is accurate.


I am going from memory here, but the concrete wall above the knoll comes to mind. look at the length that the map says it is and compare that to the same wall leading to the Zapruder pedestal. Then compare the two lines and see if they are accurate in ratio to the numerical distances attributed to them. I distinctly recall posting about them a few years ago and it is possible that Don corrected them, but if the map is unchanged, then they are still there.

Bill

Edited by Bill Miller, 12 March 2007 - 05:51 PM.


#38 Duncan MacRae

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 06:10 PM

I'm at a disadvantage here Bill as I won't be home until Thursday evening and can't capture any frames at the moment. You can however view the heads in the clip here which clearly shows Lane and Holland in a similar position to my subject matter. If someone could capture and post a frame, it would be appreciated.

Duncan

Edited by Duncan MacRae, 12 March 2007 - 06:11 PM.


#39 Chris Davidson

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 06:16 PM

Hi Bernice, yes it's the same position as in the Nix frame which you uploaded, which Rick Needham agreed on before much later doing an unexpected 360 degrees about turn to agree with Bills hypothesis. I'm not at home at the moment, so I can't capture the Mark Lane frame which shows Holland at his spot. Maybe Chris could do this and do an analysis of the locations to tie them up or not, and if not, i'll do it on Friday... Chris?

Duncan


Duncan,

From Holland's interview with Lane.

I'll leave the analysis to you.

What Bernice supplied previously appears to be very accurate in terms of distance. imo

I believe there are 3 men in the position you have described. (Moorman Photo Enhanced)

At this point, I assume he is just one of the shooters along that fence.

Did he take the headshot? Don't know, but at the least, he's prepared to shoot.

By the way, the aspect ratio on what I have supplied has not been changed.

I believe the animation clearly shows it's a cop's hat.

Or is it another coincidence that the hat shapes match quite nicely.

chris

#40 John Dolva

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 06:25 PM

Bill: "John - there were numerous shots being fired at the limo ... show me where their shock wave or any other sign of them in flight is seen on any assassination film? It's nonsense to expect the assasination films to offer such detail on this matter"

I gather from this that you are not understanding what I'm saying.

One (hopefully) very last time.

we are talking about a bullet.
we are talking about a trace left by the passage of the bullet.

if the bullet was travelling directly towards the film surface it certainly would leave a trace, not unlike a 'hole'. If it was travelling directly away from the film surface, the film surface would , during exposure, be hit by photons which would travel at the speed of light back towards the film surface. the other extreme is when it travels directly across the field of view. This is probably what people who are having difficulties with this are meaning when they the bullet CANNOT be seen. Either way whatever the field of view, whatever the direction the bullet travels, photons are not taking the day off and do srtrike the bullet and those photons travel at the speed of light. These photons strike the film surface.

The trace of the bullet is another matter that also involve photons travelling at the speed of light during the time that the film surface is uncovered by the shutter. Again, they strike the film surface and affect the emulsion. FOV has nothing to do with this photon behaviour.

What does have a lot to do with it is the medium the bullet travels through, be it vaccuuum, air, air-bloodmist, a head or a brick wall. Each of these affect the bullet and the well documented twisted conical volume of medium or material at various densities caused by the passage of the bullet. This twirly conical volume of media affects the passage of photons through it.

These photons irrespective of wide or not FOV will hit the film surface (if travelling in that direction) and react with the emulsion to no lesser or greater degree than any other photon.

The conical shape of media (in this case air and an airbloodmist mixture) continues travelling/expandisng/dissipating well below the speed of the bullet (even though it's created at the rate of the bullets passage through the media.) The affect on the photons passing through this media of varying densities, when those photons travel to the film surface during exposeure leaves no more or less an impression.

Bill: "It's nonsense to expect the assasination films to offer such detail on this matter"

Perhaps its differentiation of these photons from a lot of other photons most likely in higher saturation you are talking about?

"... show me"

Maybe I or someone ese will in time do that. Those considering it should bear in mind that it's not just individual photons, but the patterns the distortion effect of the alteration of the media the bullet/s travel through that should be looked for.

In the mean time send me digitised copies of the original transparencies of frames numbered Z311, Z312, Z313, Z314 and Z315. (lossless bitmaps, UN-ehanced should suffice)*

EDIT Make that full frame with sprocket areas included, also add 310 as well, please.

Edited by John Dolva, 13 March 2007 - 03:07 AM.


#41 Duncan MacRae

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 07:41 PM

Thanks Chris..yes I roughly agree with Bernice's figures based on the map, although i'd say it was maybe around 20ft judging by the Mark Lane frame. Some points of reference.

Duncan

Edited by Duncan MacRae, 12 March 2007 - 07:56 PM.


#42 Chris Davidson

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 10:34 PM

Hello All

I realize that this WILL seem to be a ridiculous question by many, but due to my lack of experience and understanding of photo interpretation, I would appreciate a reply if even my question is considered a fantasy.

If there were NO Zilm as a refernce or timing point that could be considered, how would it effect your interpretation of the two shooting positions from what these depictions seem to imply ? Could there have been two simultaneous shots considered as if two shooters were firing on direct command ?

I am not attempting to divert this thread into another discussion of Z film authenticity, and I wont. But my question is serious and can be answered regardless of your individual interpretations of the Z film timing and authenticity.

As a result of "these" images which seem to me to portray two differet shooters, would the "absence" of the Z film contribute in one way or another to your conclusions.

Please excuse my genuine lack of filming knowledge,and this may certainly be an ignorant question arising from that; but this IS a sincere question and not an attempt on my part to introduce or promote contradiction !

Charlie Black


Hi Charles,

I didn't use it as a timing reference to the headshot/Z film. If that's the indication I gave, I apologize.

According to the acoustical evidence I've heard, the last 2 shots were approx. 7/10 second apart. Fired on direct command from close but different positions, quite possible.

Shooting position is established by the enhanced photo. imo

When/If they fired from THIS position, unsure at this point.

chris

#43 Bill Miller

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Posted 12 March 2007 - 10:45 PM

Thanks Chris..yes I roughly agree with Bernice's figures based on the map, although i'd say it was maybe around 20ft judging by the Mark Lane frame. Some points of reference.

Duncan


Duncan - I am glad someone posted the capture and it is the same location I have been talking about. Find the location shown in the Nix film gif that Needham did years ago. Now count the sun patches on the wooden fence in both the Nix film and Moorman photo to each alleged persons position and you will be forced to see that they are not one in the same location.

Bill


#44 Bernice Moore

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 01:14 AM

Rick Needham's Nix Gif.....working, I do hope.Hope this helps.

http://i151.photobuc...moore_nix_r.gif


The follow two research photos are also I believe Rick Needhams......is not please let me know..





BTW: Charlie, for what it's worth..I very, very rarely consult the
Zapruder film.

B...

Edited by Bernice Moore, 13 March 2007 - 05:06 AM.


#45 Duncan MacRae

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 12:29 PM

Thanks Chris..yes I roughly agree with Bernice's figures based on the map, although i'd say it was maybe around 20ft judging by the Mark Lane frame. Some points of reference.

Duncan


Duncan - I am glad someone posted the capture and it is the same location I have been talking about. Find the location shown in the Nix film gif that Needham did years ago. Now count the sun patches on the wooden fence in both the Nix film and Moorman photo to each alleged persons position and you will be forced to see that they are not one in the same location.

Bill



Unfortunately, the Nix frame doesn't show the whole fence from the corner, and the Moorman photo doesn't show much of the fence area eastwards of my subject. Would you care to show me your analysis of the sunspots to both subjects based on the Nix frame and Moorman? and/or a Pyracantha tree count?

Duncan

Edited by Duncan MacRae, 13 March 2007 - 12:31 PM.





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