Mr. HOLLAND - I observed it. It knocked him completely down on the floor.

Without referring to the Zapruder film, what additionally can be referenced to show that Sam Holland's description of the force of the fatal headshot having propelled JFK onto the floor of the limousine, was inaccurate ?

Ed...I always wondered about that statement too. But remember that
Holland was ABOVE, LOOKING DOWN into the limo. This high perspective
might account for his statement. Also, in the very late Z frames, JFK
has sunk down very low, so from above might seem to be on the floorboard.
Remember, we are discussing only a few seconds, so we are not sure
which of the few seconds he is describing.

Jack

Ed,

From Charles Brehm interview, after the shooting.

If any conclusions can be drawn from this.

chris

"Replying to Sam Holland couldn't have been correct.... Could he ? "



Yep! He was!


"what additionally can be referenced to show that Sam Holland's description of the force of the fatal headshot having propelled JFK onto the floor of the limousine, was inaccurate ?"



Nothing!

Mr. ALTGENS:


"He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down."


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Us "simple-minded" (me & Jethro) backwoods boys have to stick with simple stuff! All that multple assassin and body snatcher stuff is by far too complicated for us to understand and/or comprehend.

P.S.

Pat:

Although you will no doubt be received with great acumen over on the JFK Lancer sight for having attempted to discredit me personally (reference: "ala Purvis"), as most are aware, anyone who makes any attempt to discredit me will be received with great acclaim from multitudes.

Too bad that they once thought that I was the next "conspiracy" messiah when I allowed them to publishe the altered survey data in their Lancer Magazine.

And, since the US. Secret Service as well as the FBI had easily resolved the impact point of the third, last, final shot. Down in front of James Altgens position.
Long before I came down the pike and figured it out, then rest assured that it is considerably more than just me that you attempt to discredit.

And, since you, not unlike most, were totally unaware of the impact of this shot, down at this location, until I so informed you, and that you were attempting to continue to blame many of the injuries to JFK & JBC on some mystical & mythological shot which happened from some unknown and undetermined location, by some unknown and undetermined person, then rest assured that you would have not even come close to resolving the injuries sustained by JFK & JBC.

Of which, even after having been fully informed, you continue to be lost and confused on the subject matter.

So!

"ala Purvis"/aka ala U.S. Secret Service/aka ala F.B.I. states that the third shot impact, which shot was also fired from the sixth floor of the TSDB, impacted JFK at a position when he was some 30-feet farther down Elm St. than the Z313 impact point, and this shot struck JFK (after having passed through the coat at the edge of the coat collar) in the edge of the hairline at the base of his neck, and traversed downwards through the soft flesh of the neck, to strike the skull in the EOP region of the skull as found by the autopsy surgeons.

I keep attempting to inform you of the forensic means of determination of the angle of the target as opposed to the downward angle of fire, when the elongated nature of the penetration through the skull of JFK is compared.

So!

Many who were far more informed than you have attempted to discredit the forensic and ballistic information, and although you can easily find many who will give "Pat" a "Pat" for attempting to bad-mouth Tom.

In the ultimate ending, we shall see exactly who does and who does not know of what he speaks.

Tom

P.S. Not unlike all other aspects of your research, you have never even bothered to speak with Humes; Finck, and/or Boswell.

Yet, you assume that these persons did not recognize and report accurately what they found at the autopsy.

And, you, above (and along with) all others, know more than did the autopsy surgeons; the US Secret Service, and the FBI.

Not likely!

When the President's automobile was very close to him and he could see the President's face very well, the President was seated, but was leaning forward when he stiffened perceptibly at the same instant what appeared to be a rifle shot sounded. According to BREHM, the President seemed do to stiffen and come to a pause when another shot sounded and the President appeared to be badly hit in the head. BREHM said when the President was hit by the second shot, he could notice the President's hair fly up, and then roll over to his side, as Mrs. KENNEDY was apparently pulling him in that direction.


http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z313.jpg


Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.
Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear. Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?
Mr. HUDSON - Right hand.

Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether?
Mr. HUDSON - Three.
Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.
Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?
Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.




BREHM said that a third shot followed and that all three shots were relatively close together. BREHM stated that he was in military service and he has had experience with bolt-action rifles, and he expressed the opinion that the three shots were fired just about as quickly as an individual can maneuver a bolt-action rifle, take aim, and fire three shots.



Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.


Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well!

Certainly would appear that it is going to take "Jethro" to figure this one out.

Perhaps he can get some help from those who like to get a "Pat" on the back.

Not sure what has been implied here, but figures of speech used to describe an impression is just that and little more IMO. For instance there was mention of Charles Brehm. It should be pointed out once again that unless Brehm was happy that JFK and Connally were being shot, then one might ask themselves if Charles even knew a shooting was occurring by the time Altgens took his #6 photo? The reason for pointing this out is because in Altgens #6, Charles is clapping his hands still and appears unaware that men are being assassinated before his eyes.

Bill Miller

but figures of speech used to describe an impression is just that and little more IMO


"BREHM said when the President was hit by the second shot, he could notice the President's hair fly up, and then roll over to his side,"[i][/i]

"BREHM said that a third shot followed"


In event that looks like a "figure of speece used to descirbe an impression", then it is absolutely no wonder that you too are still roaming around lost on this subject.



then one might ask themselves if Charles even knew a shooting was occurring by the time Altgens took his #6 photo?


And then, one just might ask themselves if the US. Secret Service, that Agency which is designated the responsibility of protection of the President of the US, "even knew a shooting was occurring" as well.

I do believe that they too can be seen in Altgens# 6. Now they may not have been clapping, but they most certainly were not reacting as if the President of the US was under fire.


http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0054a.htm


Or, is it that, because Charles Brehm did not react to the shot (and neither did much of anyone else), then his eyewitness statements have no validity?


Glenn Bennett: "A second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's head"


William T. Mclntyre Special Agent White House Detail -----"After the second shot, I looked at the President and witnessed his being struck in the head by the third and last shot."


Mr. ALTGENS: "There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty."



http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm


Third Shot:-----------------------Stationing 4+96 (actually, 4+95 was what was surveyed in)


http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm


Z313:--------------------------Stationing 4+65.3







Bill: Maybe with that, even you can figure out exactly which was shot#2 and which one was shot#3.

Jethro could, and did!




In fact, about the only one who seems to have been aware of what was taking place was none other than JBC.

And!

So Purvis, I see that in Altgens #6 there was at least two shots fired by that time .... what is Brehm doing? I see Brehm clapping his hands. So did Brehm really describe what he thought at that moment and was happy about it to the point of clapping his hands, or did he just make that statement from a later recollection? A logical answer would be appreciated so that I may be able to stop roaming around lost on this subject.






In Altgens #6, it appears that at least some of the agents recognized that shot had been fired. But even if the entire plaza full of witnesses had been oblivious to the shooting that had already started several shots ago - it would not address Brehm's later recollection because he is clapping his tail off even after Z255/56.




Sound's like Bennett didn't hear at least one of the shots. If a bullet sparked the street as Holland and some other witnessed had said to have witnessed, then Bennett missed even more shots ... so is it your position that it was the second shot that hit JFK in the head because of what Bennett said???







I'm thinking that JFK had an idea, as well. The same might be said about Clint Hill.

Bill Miller

Tom, your pet theory has a number of problems. You want everyone to believe that Connally was wounded after the head shot at frame 313. Although Facts on File 1963 reported as much, (You're welcome) this has little support, particularly from the Connallys. How do you know the third shot coming after the head shot proposed by the SS and FBI in December was the shot wounding Connally? Is there anything to support this?

If there were two head shots, as you claim, and the first one (the second shot at 313) blew brain matter all over the place, why did Altgens only notice one head shot, the one you claim was the second head shot?

I agree with Pat. The Connally's were quite clear about what happened and when. Bill Newman testified at the Shaw trial that as Connally was coming towards him and before JFK's head exploded - he saw blood on the Governor's shirt. And then there is the Zapruder film which shows Connally's right shoulder getting shoved violently forward between Z223/224.

As far as two head shots goes ... there is no evidence of that on any of the films. One back spatter is seen between Z312 and Z313 - no other such impact can be seen on the Zapruder film ... not to mention all the other films as well.

Bill

Tom, your pet theory has a number of problems


Failure to understand the answer is not indicative that there is a "problem" with the problem!
If often means that one understands neither the problem, nor the answer when given.


You want everyone to believe that Connally was wounded after the head shot at frame 313.

Personally, I long ago gave up on the probability that "everyone" could be demonstrated to believe what is factual, forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical fact and evidence.

Therefore, I could absolutely care less as to what "everyone" believes.

Fortunately, there are those who visit this forum who have clearly demonstrated that ability for deductive reasoning, the ability for factual research, and self-thought, and my hope lies in those persons.


Although Facts on File 1963 reported as much, (You're welcome) this has little support, particularly from the Connallys.


Nellie, most likely, does not know the full facts and truths.
John lies!

And by the way, if you would bother to have read exactly what Nellie Connally wrote only 10 days after the event, then she clearly describes the position which JBC was in when the blood/brain matter, etc; was blown all over them.
And, since I posted it multiple time, you must have some adversion to listening what Nellie has to say on the subject matter.


Might I recommend that you pay close attention to what she has to say and describes, and then compare this with JBC's erect sitting positlion at Z313.


How do you know the third shot coming after the head shot proposed by the SS and FBI in December was the shot wounding Connally? Is there anything to support this?


Nothing which you would understand! Only the forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical evidence!
& I might add, common logic!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. SPECTER - Did you have an opportunity to examine the car shortly after the assassination?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; I did, on the early morning of November 23, 1963.
Mr. SPECTER - The record will show you have testified about it heretofore, but will you again state at this juncture whether or not you found any indication within the car that the interior of the car was struck by a missile proceeding at a high velocity such as 1,775 feet per second?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; we found none.

Mr. Frazier- I cannot say that three bullets did not strike in the automobile from my examination, but it appears and due to the reconstruction at Dallas, it appears that if the one bullet did strike the President, then it landed in the automobile, and if it landed in the automobile, and we found no evidence of it having hit the car itself, then I say it is possible that it struck the Governor.
Now, as to the sequence of the shots, that one obviously was before the head shot. If there was a third shot fired, I could not tell you from anything I know whether it was the first, the second, or the third.

Mr. McCLOY - It is possible, according to your analysis of it, that the first shot could have gone through the back of the President and exited through the front of his neck, and the second shot could have hit Connally, and the third shot could have hit the President.
Mr. DULLES - Where would the first shot have gone under that thesis?
Mr. McCLOY - I just say I don't know where it could have gone.

Representative FORD - Does that opinion rule out the possibility or cast doubt on the possibility of a third shot?
Mr. FRAZIER - It does not rule out the possibility of a third shot. No, sir; because I can only base my opinion on what I saw and my own experience, and that is that a bullet could have struck the President, if it had deflection in the President's body it could have, and he happened to be in a certain position in the car which would affect the angle, the bullet may have exited from the automobile.
Representative FORD - As I understood your assumptions there was no deviation and no deflection, and I thought I phrased my question based on your opinion under those facts, it might rule out a third shot.


Representative FORD - Again making those same assumptions we made a moment ago, is there any evidence that a third shot hit the car or any occupant of the car?
Mr. FRAZIER - Assuming all those assumptions we had before; no. I would say that, and again I have not the technical evidence to back this up one way or the other but you make these assumptions and I would say under those conditions only two shots hit the occupants or the car because the one through the President had to cause Connally's wound otherwise it would have struck somewhere else in the car and it did not strike somewhere else.
Therefore, it had to go through Governor Connally.
And the second shot had to strike the President in the head.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note: If you believe the SBT/Magic bullet theory, then you quite obviously have the "INTACT" bullet which went through JFK & JBC as well. Thus, you can go home satisified that the WC has told you the facts and truths.

In event that you do not believe in the (WC)SBT, then you had best start your search for another intact bullet, as it was an intact bullet which struck JBC in the right shoulder and penetrated down through his chest to ultimately exit the chest and strike him in the left inner thigh.

Might I also state that Frazier has informed you that there was neither any intact bullet found in the limo, nor was there any damage created by such a bullet, so I would also advise that one begin their search for a third, final shot, which just probably left an intact bullet somewhere.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/..._Vol2_0050a.htm

Frazier also gave one a good "beginning" if they wish to actually pursue the missing bullet!


And, even others have informed you as to exactly where one might begin their quest for information. (attached)

However, if you wish to believe that the 5-inch long scar on the left lower limb of JBC was in fact caused by his becoming entagled in a Barbed Wire fence as a child, then again, who am I to step onto your belief in fairy tales.


And by the way, just in case you failed to realize it, the bullet which struck at the Z313 headshot, fragmented tremendously.



If there were two head shots, as you claim,


Since I was not in Dallas at the time, (I was in Athens, Ohio working), then I must assume that those persons there know what they saw.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brehm.htm

According to BREHM, the President seemed do to stiffen and come to a pause when another shot sounded and the President appeared to be badly hit in the head. BREHM said when the President was hit by the second shot, he could notice the President's hair fly up, and then roll over to his side, as Mrs. KENNEDY was apparently pulling him in that direction.

BREHM said that a third shot followed and that all three shots were relatively close together


----------------------------------------------------------------

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce2112.htm


"A second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the Boss's head"


------------------------------------------------------------------

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hudson.htm

Mr. HUDSON- I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.
Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?


Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.
Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?
Mr. HUDSON - Right hand


Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether?
Mr. HUDSON - Three.
Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.
Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?
Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/holland.htm

Mr. HOLLAND - Well, it was pretty loud, and naturally, underneath this underpass here it would be a little louder, the concussion from underneath it, it was a pretty loud report, and the car traveled a few yards, and Governor Connally turned in this fashion, like that [indicating] with his hand out, and another report.
Mr. STERN - With his right hand out?
Mr. HOLLAND - Turning to his right.
Mr. STERN - To his right?
Mr. HOLLAND - And another report rang out and he slumped down in his seat

Now, I mean, that was apparently that---she turned back around, and by the time she could get turned around he was hit again along in---I'd say along in here [indicating].
Mr. STERN - How do you know that? Did you observe that?
Mr. HOLLAND - I observed it. It knocked him completely down on the floor. Over, just slumped completely over. That second---
Mr. STERN - Did you hear a third report?
Mr. HOLLAND - I heard a third report and I counted four shots and about the same time all this was happening,


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-landi.htm


It was at this moment that I heard a second report and it appeared that the President's head split open with a muffled exploding sound. I can best describe the sound as I heard it, as the sound you would get by shooting a high powered bullet into a five gallon can of water or shooting into a melon. I saw pieces of flesh and blood flying through the air and the President slumped out of sight towards Mrs. Kennedy.

The time lapse between the first and second report must have been about four or five seconds.

My immediate thought was that the President could not possibly be alive after being hit like he was

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-mcint.htm

After the second shot, I looked at the President and witnessed his being struck in the head by the third and last shot.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now Pat!

It is hardly my fault if your research techniques are so lacking that in addition to having never sought out the autopsy surgeons in attempt to answer some of your confusion, you also quite obviously have never taken the time to read and STUDY the witness testimonies as they exist in the WC.

Had you taken the time to do so, then you just may not have wasted so many "hundreds" of hours in a confused state of not even realizing that the headshot at Z313 is, and always was, the second shot in the shot sequence.

In fact! Anyone who may have actually studied the subject matter, most assuredly should have asked exactly what this was all about!

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

--------------------------------------------------------
Or, do you just generally operate under the assumption that you know more about this subject than did the US Secret Service who, in addition to having a first generation copy of the Z-film, also had the direct input of those SS Agents who were present when the shooting occurred, as well as the availability of those statements taken by the Dallas, TX Police Dept.

Boy! And I thought that I was "big-headed"! (or "pig-headed" as one sees fit)
--------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.
Mr. LIEBELER - What makes you so certain of that, Mr. Altgens?
Mr. ALTGENS - Because, having heard these shots and then having seen the damage that was done on this shot to the President's head, I was aware at that time that shooting was taking place and there was not a shot--I looked--I looked because I knew the shot had to come from either over here, if it were close range, or had to come from a high-powered rifle.

There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.
Because, you see, even up to that time I didn't know that the President had been shot previously

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well! Go Figure!

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol18_0054a.htm

Anyone who has studied the elevations of ELM St., the elevations of JFK, and the elevation of Altgens position, can easily understand exactly why he could not directly observe JFK.



why did Altgens only notice one head shot, the one you claim was the second head shot?


Why not suprise us all with some true research and ask James Altgens (if he is still living)

If not, then:

"I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera."


Ever operate a camera in which one had to manually focus for distance???? Can you do it without looking down at the actual lense adjustment/range focus ring?


Lastly Pat!

Had you actually done any semblance of research, then you would also know that by an extremely large margin (% wise), most of the witnesses also informed us that there was a considerably longer pause/time delay between the first shot and the second shot, then there was between the pause/time delay of the second shot and the third/last/final shot.

So, exactly why was it that you believed the WC's fairy tale of "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"?


This is soooooo complicated!

Three shots! Three hits!

All easily within the shooting capability of LHO who entered the USMC consistantly shooting in the upper EXPERT range of qualification at targets of 500 meters, when shooting from the fixed/stationary position.

And, which by the way, he also clearly demonstrated during his final range-fire qualification.


P.S. Pat

I keep attempting to explain to you that if you will take the elongated nature of the EOP entry wound and ballistically & forensically determine the angle of attack/angle of incidence which the bullet had to strike, then this just may tell you something which you quite obviously have not figured out yet.

Along with the fact that, when firing on a downward angle of approximately 12-degrees downward, it is a physical impossibility for a copper jacketed bullet, travelling at some 2,000 fps, to strike at the edge of the hairline, turn upwards and go through the soft tissue at the base of the neck, and thereafter strike the EOP of the skull.

Unless of course the target, upon impact, is bent well forward at the waist, with the head down!

Think about that one and you may actually come to understand something!

"Politicians, not unlike Magicians, can make things disappear!"

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8953

Post #16


"Quickly there was a second shot (John had turned to the right at the first shot to look back & had then whirled to the left to get another look---realized the President had been shot said "No, No, No)

Was hit and said "My God, they are are going to kill us all"--Wheeled back to the right crumpling his shoulders and his knees in the most unpleasant & pitiful position a tall big man could be in.

I reached over and pulled him to me & tried to get us both down in the car. Then came a third shot.


With John in my arms and still trying to stay down I did not see the third shot hit--but I felt something falling all over me. My sensation was of spent buckshot. My eyes saw bloody matter in tiny bits all over the car."


Nellie Connally, handwritten notes made 10 days after the event.



That should, for most, just about provide the final answer to the question as to whether or not Sam Holland was correct!


He Was!

"Bump"