Full Version: Was the paper bag switched? or re-folded?
P.S. I found a major mistake in my comparison of the photos, and have removed the slides off patspeer.com until I can fix them.
QUOTE (Pat Speer @ Aug 9 2007, 11:37 PM) 
In comparing photos of the paper bag purportedly used by Oswald to smuggle the rifle in the building, I've discovered that they don't match. I've posted two slides demonstrating this at patspeer.com (link below), in the reclaiming history from reclaiming history blog.
My analysis has led me in two directions, one of which would seem to be true. 1) the bag photographed by the WC is a fake. 2) the bag photographed by the WC is the original bag, only folded up to make it look less wide. If anyone has an explanation as to how the bag could be the same bag, with the same proportions, in the photos, I anxiously await that explanation.
Please take a look and tell me what you think.
Pat
My analysis has led me in two directions, one of which would seem to be true. 1) the bag photographed by the WC is a fake. 2) the bag photographed by the WC is the original bag, only folded up to make it look less wide. If anyone has an explanation as to how the bag could be the same bag, with the same proportions, in the photos, I anxiously await that explanation.
Please take a look and tell me what you think.
Pat
This was noted years ago; it is good of you to bring it up for discussion.
Jack
An FBI Document 89-43 dated Nov.29/63......released in 1968......stated that the found rifle bag
material was the Same, as the paper wrapping used by the TSBD.......
However as seen below......an FBI Document same number 89-43....also dated Nov.29/63....and found in
the N/As....in 1980..states the exact opposite......
material was the Same, as the paper wrapping used by the TSBD.......
However as seen below......an FBI Document same number 89-43....also dated Nov.29/63....and found in
the N/As....in 1980..states the exact opposite......
Peter:
I think you may mean Julia Ann Mercer...
A truck marked Air Conditioning...with two wheels up on the curb, and the
hood up........was stopped on the right hand side of Elm,
going toward the Underpass..from Houston.....She saw a man driving,
whom she said resembled Jack Ruby, a younger man got out
of said truck....carrying a brown rifle case.....and proceeded to
climb the knoll to the fence area......I think she said he had longish hair,
and a jacket...There were three policemen
in the area...at the time.....
She later told Garrison that her statement had been changed and that
she had Id the man driving as Jack Ruby on the Sat..Nov.23/63..and that
the signature on said statement was not hers....
Below is the Sheriffs statement....
B......
I think you may mean Julia Ann Mercer...
A truck marked Air Conditioning...with two wheels up on the curb, and the
hood up........was stopped on the right hand side of Elm,
going toward the Underpass..from Houston.....She saw a man driving,
whom she said resembled Jack Ruby, a younger man got out
of said truck....carrying a brown rifle case.....and proceeded to
climb the knoll to the fence area......I think she said he had longish hair,
and a jacket...There were three policemen
in the area...at the time.....
She later told Garrison that her statement had been changed and that
she had Id the man driving as Jack Ruby on the Sat..Nov.23/63..and that
the signature on said statement was not hers....
Below is the Sheriffs statement....
B......
QUOTE (Bernice Moore @ Aug 10 2007, 10:01 AM)
An FBI Document 89-43 dated Nov.29/63......released in 1968......stated that the found rifle bag
material was the Same, as the paper wrapping used by the TSBD.......
However as seen below......an FBI Document same number 89-43....also dated Nov.29/63....and found in
the N/As....in 1980..states the exact opposite......
material was the Same, as the paper wrapping used by the TSBD.......
However as seen below......an FBI Document same number 89-43....also dated Nov.29/63....and found in
the N/As....in 1980..states the exact opposite......
Thanks, Bernice. I found a major mistake in my comparison but am continuing to research the bag. I'm trying to remember who found that document and where. Do you remember?
QUOTE (Pat Speer @ Aug 10 2007, 11:48 AM)
QUOTE (Bernice Moore @ Aug 10 2007, 10:01 AM)
An FBI Document 89-43 dated Nov.29/63......released in 1968......stated that the found rifle bag
material was the Same, as the paper wrapping used by the TSBD.......
However as seen below......an FBI Document same number 89-43....also dated Nov.29/63....and found in
the N/As....in 1980..states the exact opposite......
material was the Same, as the paper wrapping used by the TSBD.......
However as seen below......an FBI Document same number 89-43....also dated Nov.29/63....and found in
the N/As....in 1980..states the exact opposite......
Thanks, Bernice. I found a major mistake in my comparison but am continuing to research the bag. I'm trying to remember who found that document and where. Do you remember?
Researcher J. Gary Shaw found the discrepancy between the two documents in the 70s.
As I was doing Penn Jone's TCI newsletter at the time, he gave me the documents and
I wrote a story with both documents side by side, with a headline IT'S IN THE BAG. It
has since been used in many JFK books.
Jack
I spent quite a lot of time on the paper bag(s) comparing photos etc. A couple of obvious problems are that there are pre and post fingerprinting photos. The post fongerprinting ones are flattened and discolored in the process. The pre ones have photogrammetry issues.
In one of the pre fingerprinting photos ( bag carried out of TSBD, photogrammetry problem) one (IMO) can see what may be an outline of the corner of the curtain rods and the folds produced in handling the bag (with curtain rods inside). The post fingerprinting bags(s) are flattened out.
In one of the pre fingerprinting photos ( bag carried out of TSBD, photogrammetry problem) one (IMO) can see what may be an outline of the corner of the curtain rods and the folds produced in handling the bag (with curtain rods inside). The post fingerprinting bags(s) are flattened out.
Found this one online, allegedly taken by Lt. Day for comparison purposes, prior to handing off the rifle to the FBI.
QUOTE (Mark Valenti @ Aug 10 2007, 06:04 PM)
Found this one online, allegedly taken by Lt. Day for comparison purposes, prior to handing off the rifle to the FBI.
I'm sorry that I started this thread with a faulty comparison, but it is proving most interesting. Gary Mack sent me an e-mail saying that Vincent Drain was contacted by Earl Golz when Gary Shaw first found the second document. He says that Drain ADMITTED writing the document, but claimed he'd written two different documents while waiting for the test results, one claiming the bag matched and one claiming it didn't. He told Golz that he thought he destroyed the one found in the Archives, after the results came in.
I think there's a problem with this excuse. Cadigan tested the bag on the 23rd. The results were furnished on the 23rd. Drain's report on the evidence was prepared on the 26th. Bernice, or Jack, what is the date on the bottom of this report? At the top it says 11-30 but that could be the date it was typed up. What is the date at the bottom? If it was written up after the 23rd it proves Drain to be inaccurate in his recollection to Golz, and possibly a liar.
Does anyone have the Golz article? Drain's exact words could be helpful.
double-post, oops
QUOTE (Pat Speer @ Aug 11 2007, 04:18 PM)
QUOTE (Mark Valenti @ Aug 10 2007, 06:04 PM)
Found this one online, allegedly taken by Lt. Day for comparison purposes, prior to handing off the rifle to the FBI.
I'm sorry that I started this thread with a faulty comparison, but it is proving most interesting. Gary Mack sent me an e-mail saying that Vincent Drain was contacted by Earl Golz when Gary Shaw first found the second document. He says that Drain ADMITTED writing the document, but claimed he'd written two different documents while waiting for the test results, one claiming the bag matched and one claiming it didn't. He told Golz that he thought he destroyed the one found in the Archives, after the results came in.
I think there's a problem with this excuse. Cadigan tested the bag on the 23rd. The results were furnished on the 23rd. Drain's report on the evidence was prepared on the 26th. Bernice, or Jack, what is the date on the bottom of this report? At the top it says 11-30 but that could be the date it was typed up. What is the date at the bottom? If it was written up after the 23rd it proves Drain to be inaccurate in his recollection to Golz, and possibly a liar.
Does anyone have the Golz article? Drain's exact words could be helpful.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
I have enlarged the doc.....says 30th, 63.....
Have a look.....
B
QUOTE (Peter Lemkin @ Aug 10 2007, 06:54 AM)
QUOTE (Bernice Moore @ Aug 10 2007, 11:22 AM)
Peter:
I think you may mean Julia Ann Mercer...
A truck marked Air Conditioning...with two wheels up on the curb, and the
hood up........was stopped on the right hand side of Elm,
going toward the Underpass..from Houston.....She saw a man driving,
whom she said resembled Jack Ruby, a younger man got out
of said truck....carrying a brown rifle case.....and proceeded to
climb the knoll to the fence area......I think she said he had longish hair,
and a jacket...There were three policemen
in the area...at the time.....
She later told Garrison that her statement had been changed and that
she had Id the man driving as Jack Ruby on the Sat..Nov.23/63..and that
the signature on said statement was not hers....
Below is the Sheriffs statement....
B......
I think you may mean Julia Ann Mercer...
A truck marked Air Conditioning...with two wheels up on the curb, and the
hood up........was stopped on the right hand side of Elm,
going toward the Underpass..from Houston.....She saw a man driving,
whom she said resembled Jack Ruby, a younger man got out
of said truck....carrying a brown rifle case.....and proceeded to
climb the knoll to the fence area......I think she said he had longish hair,
and a jacket...There were three policemen
in the area...at the time.....
She later told Garrison that her statement had been changed and that
she had Id the man driving as Jack Ruby on the Sat..Nov.23/63..and that
the signature on said statement was not hers....
Below is the Sheriffs statement....
B......
Yes, my memory lapse...gun case - not gun 'bag' - but still suspicous and significant. Also her original report was of NO words on truck and photos support this. Police and later FBI said she said Air Conditoning [she denies it], and then they said no Air Conditioning companies had such trucks....the usual.
&%%%%%%%%%%
Peter:
That is the Sheriff's statement that she gave on Nov.22.63........and it does say Air Conditioning, on the truck..
in that, statement.
B.....
QUOTE (Peter Lemkin @ Aug 12 2007, 02:09 AM)
QUOTE (Bernice Moore @ Aug 12 2007, 07:55 AM)
QUOTE (Peter Lemkin @ Aug 10 2007, 06:54 AM)
QUOTE (Bernice Moore @ Aug 10 2007, 11:22 AM)
Peter:
I think you may mean Julia Ann Mercer...
A truck marked Air Conditioning...with two wheels up on the curb, and the
hood up........was stopped on the right hand side of Elm,
going toward the Underpass..from Houston.....She saw a man driving,
whom she said resembled Jack Ruby, a younger man got out
of said truck....carrying a brown rifle case.....and proceeded to
climb the knoll to the fence area......I think she said he had longish hair,
and a jacket...There were three policemen
in the area...at the time.....
She later told Garrison that her statement had been changed and that
she had Id the man driving as Jack Ruby on the Sat..Nov.23/63..and that
the signature on said statement was not hers....
Below is the Sheriffs statement....
B......
I think you may mean Julia Ann Mercer...
A truck marked Air Conditioning...with two wheels up on the curb, and the
hood up........was stopped on the right hand side of Elm,
going toward the Underpass..from Houston.....She saw a man driving,
whom she said resembled Jack Ruby, a younger man got out
of said truck....carrying a brown rifle case.....and proceeded to
climb the knoll to the fence area......I think she said he had longish hair,
and a jacket...There were three policemen
in the area...at the time.....
She later told Garrison that her statement had been changed and that
she had Id the man driving as Jack Ruby on the Sat..Nov.23/63..and that
the signature on said statement was not hers....
Below is the Sheriffs statement....
B......
Yes, my memory lapse...gun case - not gun 'bag' - but still suspicous and significant. Also her original report was of NO words on truck and photos support this. Police and later FBI said she said Air Conditoning [she denies it], and then they said no Air Conditioning companies had such trucks....the usual.
&%%%%%%%%%%
Peter:
That is the Sheriff's statement that she gave on Nov.22.63........and it does say Air Conditioning, on the truck..
in that, statement.
B.....
For example, see p. 262 Mellon's A Farewell to Justice:
"By Monday the, the Sheriff's office had inserted the words 'Air Conditioning' onto the side of the truck, even as Mercer insisted that no identifying words were written on the vehicle she had seen. Soon the FBI would claim that no air conditioning companies in Dallas had a green pickup."
This kind of stuff one or twice one might attribute to police sloppiness...but in the 'investigations' and 'reports' such slight-'o-hand tricks on witness statements happened more than one can count stars on a clear night.
Peter:
Does Mellon, note a citation..? If yours is handy, mine is not..thanks.
I will check Meagher and Weisberg they are at arms length.
I believe there are two other official statement documents, attributed to her, and all are different...no surprise....they typed them out.
She saw what she saw, so they had to messy it up all the way down the line.....so as to present another witness, who made up fairy tales.
it was dangerous, to those in charge...
What she did see is probably closer to what she related to Garrison...
B....
Yes here it is and there are others.......and more changes of course, and all
the way down the line......and guess who typed them all.....
Thanks B.....
<Quote on>----------------------------------------------------------
FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
DATE 11/28/63
JULIA ANN MERCER, Residence 5200 Belmont, Apartment 208,
Dallas, Texas, who is employed at the Automat Distributors, 1720 Canton
Street, Dallas, was shown a group of photographs which included a
photograph of JACK RUBY. MERCER could not identify any of the photo-
graphs as being identical with the person she had observed slouched over
the wheel of a green Ford pickup truck parked about 10:50 AM at a point
near the place where President KENNEDY was assassinated on November 22,
1963.
She then was shown a photograph of RUBY, and she advised the
person in the truck had a rather large round face similar to RUBY's, but
she could not identify him as the person.
She then was shown a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, and she
stated that OSWALD was of the same general build, size and age as the
person who took a long package from this truck, but she also could not
identify him as being the one who took the package from the truck.
on 11/27/63 at Dallas, Texas File#: DL 89-43
by Special Agents HENRY J. OLIVER and
LOUIS M. KELLY; mam Date dictated: 11/28/63
<Quote off>---------------------------------------
the way down the line......and guess who typed them all.....
Thanks B.....
<Quote on>----------------------------------------------------------
FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
DATE 11/28/63
JULIA ANN MERCER, Residence 5200 Belmont, Apartment 208,
Dallas, Texas, who is employed at the Automat Distributors, 1720 Canton
Street, Dallas, was shown a group of photographs which included a
photograph of JACK RUBY. MERCER could not identify any of the photo-
graphs as being identical with the person she had observed slouched over
the wheel of a green Ford pickup truck parked about 10:50 AM at a point
near the place where President KENNEDY was assassinated on November 22,
1963.
She then was shown a photograph of RUBY, and she advised the
person in the truck had a rather large round face similar to RUBY's, but
she could not identify him as the person.
She then was shown a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, and she
stated that OSWALD was of the same general build, size and age as the
person who took a long package from this truck, but she also could not
identify him as being the one who took the package from the truck.
on 11/27/63 at Dallas, Texas File#: DL 89-43
by Special Agents HENRY J. OLIVER and
LOUIS M. KELLY; mam Date dictated: 11/28/63
<Quote off>---------------------------------------
Every time I see a discussion of the paper bag, I have to wonder how it may tie in with the unclaimed parcel found at the Irving Post Office that contained nothing more than a "large paper bag". Michael Griffith did an excellent writeup on this back in 1996 that can be found here. (BTW, it's worth clicking the link at the bottom of the page for more excellent articles by Mr. Griffith.)
What he doesn't mention, however, is how that package ties in with the "attempt to deliver" notice sent to Ruth Paine's house just 2 days before the assassination.
Click to view attachment
Curious package...one bag inside of another and delivered.
JWK
What he doesn't mention, however, is how that package ties in with the "attempt to deliver" notice sent to Ruth Paine's house just 2 days before the assassination.
Click to view attachment
Curious package...one bag inside of another and delivered.
JWK
Why should it be considered such an impossibility that Harvey addressed and mailed the paper bag to a non-existent address? If he's working for someone that he doesn't trust, it's a good idea, similar to stamping 544 Camp Street on one occasion of his leafleting. If he had ended up in court, 544 Camp Street being basically the same location as Guy Banister would have been useful to him in claiming who he really worked for and if the mailed paper bag had been brought into evidence and maybe some 'other' interesting fingerprints found on it, then this also would have been of use to him.
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