I cannot remember whether he have had a thread addressed specifically about this issue but I think it merits one.

As I mentioned before in a thread to demonstrate that VB had not read all the books listed in his bibliography, the chapter "Searching For Ghosts in Key West" in "The Last Investigation" details Fonzi's week-long effort in Key West to find proof for the claim of the retired manager of the Key West Airport, George Faraldo, that he had seen LHO and Jack Ruby together at the Key West Airport. Mark Howell and I interviewed Faraldo's widow and wrote a story about Faraldo's reported sighting for the Key West Citizen.

Our article is available on the Net.

Another sighting of the two together came from then Texas AG Mattox who reported (in 1990 I believe) that his mother, a waitress, had seen the two dining together in her place of employment.

BK, you reported on the potentially suspicious death of Bill Chesler, who died shortly before he was to be interviewed by the WC. He had reported a possible association between Ruby and Oswald.
Can you fill us in on the Chesler story?

I would like this thread to be used to discuss and evaluate whether LHO and JR knew each other (no, not in the Biblical sense of the term!).

So I first have questions re Mattox. (1) Is he still alive? (2) Does anyone know the name of the restaurant at which his mother worked? (3) When was this sighting her sighting first reported? Was the 1990 report by her son the first public report of it?

And going on, can we discuss other persons who reported seeing the two together, and the credibility of such witnesses?

As noted in the other thread, in "Reclaiming History" VB states that the WC investigated each and every reported sighting of Ruby and Oswald together and was able to discredit them.

This shows that VB did not read Fonzi's book very well since the WC obviously did not investigate the Faraldo Key West story.

I suspect the WC did not investigate the Mattox story either.

Is there information available re which reported sightings the WC DID investigate and WHY it discounted same? I think there is only a broad conclusory broadbrush denial of any LHO-JR association in the WC itself.

Mrs. Dwight E Bailey told the FBI she knew numerous employees of the Aldophus Hotel who had seem Ruby and Oswald together. She also said her mother had waited on them at the hotel's coffee shop.

FBI File 62-109060-4391 Re # 124-10057-10773

Dated January 9, 1967.

(Info from "Triangle of Death", page 179.)

Tim,

The Bailey report doesn't appear to be all that solid.

That aside, there is also Maudie Crane who claimed to have seen Ruby with Oswald in Waco.

Crane reported this to the Waco police who then referred it to the FBI. I have a document somewhere regarding this. I will try to dig it up.

James

Very glad you posted that, James.

It certainly demonstrates that one should not always accept at face value an assertion made in an assassination book!

Do you know whether the FBI ever interviewed Texas AG Mattox's mother re her son's statement that his mother had waited on Oswald and Ruby together?

James (and all), several comments:

1. Perhaps Mrs. Dwight Bailey was correct but her parents decided to play the safe route not to get involved? Admittedly that is only speculation ("pure speculation").

2. I assume that with its usual diligence in this case the FBI then located and interviewed people who had worked in the Adolphus coffee shop. LOL.

Perhaps of some importance though: someone should try to determine the restaurant or coffee shop in which Mattox's mother worked as a waitress. Is the former Texas AG Mattox still alive?

Source: Richard Billings' "New Orleans Journal":


Garrison says Oswald almost definitely can be placed in the Carousel . . .Check statement of Harvey [sic] Wade (Vol. XXV, CE 2370) . . . Wade says Oswald was sitting with a white male, 30 to 32, stocky, dark, 200 pounds, etc. . . . The Spanish trace continued . . . Wade made his statement on Nov. 26 . . . Said he saw Oswald in club Nov. 10 . . . Furthermore, the mind reading MC, Bill de Mar . . . Also in CE 2370 . . . He says a photographer snapped picture of table, whereupon Ruby grabbed film and tore it up . . .

From a post by Dixie Dea on the original "Tippitt" thread:

Earl Crater of the Pig and Whistle restaurant said that LHO, Ruby and Tippit had breakfast there on a number of occasions at 7:00 A.M. Crater said that LHO never had more then a cup of coffee.

Tim,



You might be interested in reading this:

Oswald and Ruby by Dave Reitzes
Based on "Harvey and Lee" by John Armstrong
http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JA/DR/.dr06.html

Ruby's Ties
From: M. B. Lambert
Date: 2/22/00
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:AvpbH...Cuban&hl=en

According to various witnesses, Ruby had both the Vegas and the Carousel clubs for sale on the open market prior to the assassination. One such witness was Betty Dunegan, who came to the Carousel on what she thought was either a Tuesday or Thursday night in the first two weeks of November. She was there, she said, to negotiate the possible purchase of the Vegas club, which she thought had been put up for sale to remedy Ruby’s outstanding tax debt to the IRS. She also said that while she was there, she saw Lee Harvey Oswald in attendance, wearing a white V-necked sweater.

Another potential buyer was Bertha Cheek, a rising real estate entrepreneur who visited the Carousel, ostensibly with a view to buying that club. She was accompanied during this visit by her younger beau, ‘Bob’ Litchfield. He later recalled, independent of Dunegan, that this visit had also transpired on either a Tuesday or Thursday night in the first two weeks of November. He was more precise in his estimate, for he claimed that a photographer was there on the pertinent night, taking shots of Ruby’s strippers for “a national magazine.” This photographer may have been Eddie Rocco, whose interviews with the Bureau and photographs FBI kept classified for a number of years. Oddly, Litchfield also swore he saw Lee Harvey Oswald in the club that night, also wearing a white V-necked sweater.

The similarity in descriptions from the two visiting potential club buyers suggests one of two things: either they saw ‘Oswald’ on different nights, making him a recurring visitor to the club who had only one such sweater to wear out on the town; or, they were present on the same night, seeing the same ‘Oswald’ in the same sweater. In either event, they provided powerful corroboration for each other being present during this time frame, irrespective of whether the person they saw truly was Oswald.

So, is it possible that this is Oswald?

Click to view attachment

Steve Thomas

Thanks, Steve. Yes, most interesting indeed. It does not necessarily show a relationship between LHO and JR but it is still helpful.

Here is a link to Commission Exhibit 2370 referenced in Richard Billings' "New Orleans Journal":



http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...Vol25_0190a.htm

This relates to a statement of a Harvey Wade that he saw LHO in the Carousel Club on November 10, 1963.

Steve.

Your post regarding Bertha Cheek and
Waldron Litchfield claiming to see LHO at the Carousel, isn't as they each testified to for the WC. The write up, seems to be like a composite.

Although they were acquainted...(actually I believe they were more then acquainted) and both did apparently go to see Jack Ruby at the Carousel, they were not together either time.

Litchield said he went there alone, around mid to late Oct. He did later claim to have seen LHO there. However, I don't find him to be very credible.

Bertha Cheek, says she went to see Jack Ruby at the Carousel, in late Nov and took an old School Teacher friend with her by the name of Lula B Davidson. She did not mention seeing LHO there.

Personally though, I believe both Litchfield and Bertha were covering up something and lied about it. The WC also was wanting to further investigate Bertha because they suspected she was involved with Jack Ruby's smuggling operation. But, I can't find whether they actually did imvestigte her or not. However, Litchfied did have a criminal past.

In addition, I have also read a couple of times, that Bertha did actually make a deal to buy the Caousel, only a couple of days before the Assassination....even though she claimed in her testimony that she wasn't interested in Jacks offer to invest in a different Club. She didn't like his investment terms.

Both Waldren and Bertha seemed to try and distance themselves from each other, yet in Jack Ruby's address book and under both of their names, they had the same phone number. Both their testimonies are rather interesting.

I have been trying to research Bertha for a long time, and after awhile, (as in most all cases) hit a brick wall. For those who might not know....Bertha was a Real Estate Investor and also a sister to Earlene Roberts. Earlene was the Housekeeper where LHO was living on Beckley. .

TESTIMONY OF MRS. BERTHA CHEEK
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/cheek.htm

TESTIMONY OF WILBYRN WALDON (ROBERT) LITCHFIELD II
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/litchfie.htm


Dixie

From....Deadly Secrets (1992) Warren Hinckle and William Turner

Pg 244-246

Quote:

"Two men stood under the flashing lights of the Carousel Club. The place was tacky enough-the type of place where Dallas attorney Carroll Jarnagin hoped to find a job for one of his clients, an exotic dancer who used the name Robin Hood. Tall and blond Jarnagin looked out of place as he and his out-of-work customer walked in and slid into a booth. A chess champion and student of such prodigious memory that he once scored 100 on a Southern Methodist University chemistry exam involving complicated formulae, Jarnagin would recall his October 4th, 1963, visit to Jack Ruby's club in precise detail.

The day following the assassination of JFK. Jarnagin wrote a letter to J. Edgar Hoover reporting on the alleged meeting between Ruby and Oswald. In the dimly lit club Jarnagin recalls he noticed a rumpled young man in a winbreaker appear in the lighted entrance and ask for Ruby. The attorney believes he recognized him as Lee Harvey Oswald. Oswald had arrived from Mexico City the previous night.

Jarnagin overheard the putative Oswald and Ruby talking in a nearby booth. Oswald said he had just gotten in from New Orleans. He needed money. "You'll get the money when the job is done," Ruby said adding that if there was a slip-up "they" would want all their money back or feel double-crossed. The job, Jarnagin remembered, was to shoot Texas Govenor John Connally, who, Ruby said, was not opening up the state to the rackets. "The boys in Chicago have no place to go, no place to really operate," Ruby complained. they've clamped down the lid in Chicago, Cuba is closed."

According to Jarnagin, Oswald suggested that Bobby Kennedy ought to be hit. Ruby said no--the security in Washington was too tight. besides, his brother would stop at nothing to solve his death. It was Connally who had to go. When Oswald argued that killing the govenor would also bring plenty of "heat." Ruby replied, "Not really, they'll think some crackpot or communist did it, and it will be written off as an unsolved crime." (26)

There were other credible reports of an Oswald=Ruby link, including that of a gara=ge owner who said Oswald drove Ruby's car, and an auto repairman, who said Oswald brought Ruby's car in for repairs."

Unquote

Footnote

(26) Authors" interview of Carroll Jarnagin, Dallas, Sept. 21, 1966" Warren Commission Exhibit 2821

_______
Dixie

I have been trying to research Bertha for a long time, and after awhile, (as in most all cases) hit a brick wall. For those who might not know....Bertha was a Real Estate Investor and also a sister to Earlene Roberts. Earlene was the Housekeeper where LHO was living on Beckley. (Dixie Dea)

Hi Dixie,

If you haven't already done so, may I suggest trying to get in touch with Bertha Cheek's son, John B. Cheek.

Before she married Marvin Lloyd Cheek in 1948, her name was Bertha Bogle Bell. Lloyd was a professional saxaphone player.

A couple of other things, Lula B. Davidson died in her early 60's in 1967.

There was another close associate of Bertha's named John Sheppard who actually gave her away when she married Lloyd. I'm not sure what the relationship with the father, Joseph Bogle was but Sheppard appeared very close with the family.

A John Sheppard from Tyler (where Bertha grew up) was shot and killed in 1975 (there's that year again). I have not been able to find out if it is the same man.

James

Thanks a bunch for all the Bertha Cheek info, James. I lost some of my Bertha files awhile back, (through carelessness) and am slowly working on them again. I had not heard some of what you mentioned.

I did know that she had been married three times, besides Bogle Bell, Lloyd Cheek and also Harold Clark Sims, in 1961-1962. She may have married again after the Warren Commission. Waldron Litchfiled claimed she offered him a Business Proposal that would have required them to be married and he wasn't willing to go all that far. I don't know what that was sll about. However, I also felt they were both trying to distance themsleves from each other in their testimonies. I also felt they were both lying or covering up about something.

Bertha owned Apartments, on Gaston and on Swiss.Although, the one on Gaston was torn down for a luxury apartment. So, I don't know if she also owned the new one on Gaston or not. Although, I did hear rumors she suddenly, (after the assn.) came into some money and bought a luxury apartment. Both Gaston and Swiss
seems to have been quite a popular location to live, with a lot of the related players in this case. Whhether they lived in her apartment or others on those two streets, I don't know.

I have had a suspicion that Bertha may have owned at least one of the Safe Houses. She did admit she had rented to a couple of Cubans...but claimed it was several years previous, in 1959-1960, but had no other info in that regard. When she saw LHO on TV, she thought she might have rented an apartment to him sometime previous. However, I can't work that into a timeline to believe that was true.

Bertha had managed several Bars and Lounges in the past and was looking for one to invest in. A man named Bill Martin had one that she checked on, but he wanted too much just for an interst in it. So he did tell Jack Ruby about her looking for one. Jack called her and she went to discuss buying the Carousel, with him. Although she also claimed he had another one in mind, but wouldn't tell her where it was...because she might run and grab it out from under him. Evidently though, Jack was wanting to sell the Carousel...and as I mentioned in an above post, several believes she did either buy it or had plans to do so. That hasn't been verified though. But she claimed that whe wasn't agreeable to the terms, so she declined, at lest about the other club.

Is it only a coincidence that he was trying to get rid of the Carousel, because of what might be ahead? Bertha's sister Earlene Roberts died of a heart attack in 1966. I don't recall what year Bertha died though. I was thinking it was a sudden death too.

.
Thanks again!
Dixie

Dixie wrote (or pasted):

There were other credible reports of an Oswald=Ruby link, including that of a gara=ge owner who said Oswald drove Ruby's car, and an auto repairman, who said Oswald brought Ruby's car in for repairs."


Bill Chesher, who apparently suffered a fatal heart attack shortly before he was to be deposed by the WC, had information re the car mechanic. See the WC testimony of DPD Officer Biggio:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/biggio.htm

Robert Howard brought up the topic of Bertha Cheek and (no relation that I can find) Denver Lee Cheek, on the Jack W. Martin thread. Here are some things I've found:

FBI Justification for and results of Bertha Cheek background check:




The Bogle family moved from the Nashville, Tenn. area to Smith County, TX after 1915 and before Bertha was born in Feb., 1920:

Parents of Evalene Bogle Roberts and Bertha Bogle Cheek:
http://www.usgwarchives.net/tx/smith/tspho...ems/rucker.html





I've located the 1910 and 1930 US Census records to support the contention that the photos above are the grave markers of the parents of Evalene and Bertha Bogle.
They probably moved to Texas just before the 1920 census was taken, because I cannot find a record. In 1910, Earlene, 5 years old, spelled "Earline" and 4 years old Georgia were listed, along with a baby brother named "Davie".


In 1930, Evalene is already out of the household, and Bertha, listed as age ten, and "Davie" is not listed.

The identity of the two Cuban's who rented from Bertha Cheek could possibly be more than an item of passing interest. Although I cannot say with certainty, the possibility or probability that the Warren Commission and subsequent documents do not, as far as I know, reveal their identities makes one wonder if they were names that would be familiar to us all.
Regarding Ruby and Oswald "knowing" each other, I am certain they were aware of each other prior to the assassination, but some of the accounts of their being together especially in Dallas, [I believe New Orleans is a different story] were actually Larry Crafard.
I do believe the significance of the Bertha Cheek/Earlene Roberts relationship is a key part of unraveling the dynamics of the assassination, in part due to other persons Bertha had rented to, and "who they were." As time passes, I am convinced Jack Ruby was more guilty of involvement in the assassination than Oswald, although saying that is a minority opinion, to say the least.
The only thing about Ruby that could be less incriminating in that regard s that he was manipulated into certain actions
The allegation that Jack Ruby made phone calls to the rooming house prior to the assassination, has never been factually substantiated, but at the same time, knowing that Ruby called the Kloepfer's in New Orleans, as revealed by Joan Mellen
tends to give credence to that possibility.....
Another fact regarding Denver Lee Cheek is that the operator who monitored the call stated he was possibly an African-American and was further muddled by the fact the FBI did not indicate his ethnicity when they interviewed him, which is, in my opinion very unusual. So what would be the ramifications if Bertha and Denver were related. Not much, other than the fact that Bertha had a relative who apparently, [if you read between the lines] was not exactly in sackcloth and ashes at the fact that JFK was dead, and could have known a lot more than anything that is revealed in the two interviews that we know exist.
As far as Oswald and Ruby are concerned, it would be hard to argue that the producing of the documents that Pete Acker allegedly turned over to the Dallas Police that proved Ruby's phone calls to 1026 N. Beckley would be as close to a bombshell 45 years later than anything I can think of concerning the two. But it is also strange that the only time Pete Acker [1] was mentioned in the Warren Commission Hearings was when he was mentioned by Charles W Greener, as being the only person who knew how to manually load a Mannlicher-Carcano, although he referenced him as Ray Acker, Acker's full name was Ray "Pete" Acker, get to the bottom of that nook and cranny and you definitely win a prize.
Charles W Greener was connected to Dial Ryder as indicated below.

Mr. Liebeler.
I have advised you that I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission. I want to ask you about some of the background concerning the possibility that Lee Oswald or some other Oswald had a rifle in the shop here and had some work done on it? Would you state your name?
Mr. Greener.
Charles W. Greener.
Mr. Liebeler.
Are you the owner and operator of the Irving Sports Shop located at 221 East Irving Boulevard in Irving?
Mr. Greener.
. Yes, sir.
Mr. Liebeler.
Is Dial D. Ryder one of your employees?
Mr. Greener.
Yes.
Mr. Liebeler.
How long have you known Ryder?
Mr. Greener.
Approximately 6 years.

END [2]
1. Ray Acker was a high level employee of American Bell Telephone Co in Dallas
See Forgive My Grief III pg 118, by Penn Jones Jr., (1969) and
Someone Would Have Talked pg 155, by Hancock, Larry (2003)
2. For Charles W Grenner's WC testimony See
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol11/page246.php

Additional information
CHEEK, BERTHA CARDELLA (NEE VOGLE)
Sources: WC Report, p. 363; WC Vol. 13, pp. 382-402; WC Vol. 19, pp. 44, 64, 326; WC Vol. 22, p. 504; CD 4, p. 739; CD 86, pp. 132-133; CD 104, p. 283; CD 205, pp. 453-60; CD 223, p. 326; CD 355, p. 167; HSCA Report, p. 148; HSCA Vol. IV, pp. 550-51; HSCA Vol. IX, pp. 1085, 1088, 1090; HSCA Vol. XI, p. 291; Conspiracy, Summers, pp. 479, 602; Cover-Up, Shaw & Harris, p. 102; Coup d'Etat in America, Canfield & Weberman, pp. 50-1; Forgive My Grief, Vol. I, pp. 79, 85, 89, 91-3, 97-8, 114
Mary's Comments: Sister of Mrs. Earlene Roberts, housekeeper at 1026 N. Beckley where Oswald resided. Manager of apartments on Swiss Avenue. Had operated night clubs in Dallas and knew Jack Ruby and Harry Olson and had business and social contact with Ruby. She bought 509-11 N. Ewing, Dallas ("Twin Oaks" Apts.). DOB: 2/9/20. POB: Troup, TX. Divorced Lloyd Cheek in 1955 or '56. Two sons: John and Irwin - 18 and 13 yrs. in 1964.
JAMES A., JR. BOHART
CD 1121 (45) Dallas Police Department Lieutenant. Wife: Lou. Jim Garrison's office heard rumor he was related to Bertha Cheek
Lula B Davidson was a former school teacher from Tyler, TX. Was in real estate business. Accompanied Bertha Cheek to Carousel Club to meet with Jack Ruby See WC Vol. 13 (386)
BOB SANDS
Owner of Sands Electric Company. Sands "lights the Fair Grounds." He introduced W. W. "Bob" Litchfield to Mrs. Bertha Cheek (Earlene Roberts' sister) WC Vol 14, pp. 96, 98-99
JESS WILLARD LYNCH
CD 205, pp. 453-460; CD 1261; CD 1268 Managed boarding house in Dallas for Mrs. Bertha Cheek and her sister, Mrs. Earlene Roberts. Arrest record attached to CD 1268. FBI
David H. Barry
Special Agent, of FBI; Interviewed Bertha Cheek.
WC 13 (390, 392, 394, 398, 401); HSCA Vol. XII (42); Photographic Whitewash, Weisberg (50, 177)
EARLENE (MRS.) ROBERTS, pp. 10, 12, 14; Whitewash I, Weisberg, pp. 115-118, 123, 127, 199; Second Oswald, Popkin, pp. 81, 106 Housekeeper at LHO's rooming house; sister of Bertha Cheek. Died of a heart attack

Robert: On my own I discovered that Lula Davidson died in 1967 See DMN Rites Friday for Dallas Educator...Also if there was ever an under reported aspect of JFK Research it would be dissecting the "How Hollywood Makes Movies crowd" with Jack Ruby, it was also there if I am not mistaken that Jack met Crafard, and H L Hunt had a booth; there may be some smoke in there, and where is smoke there is hopefully fire.

While the enlightened minority may be inclined to see increasing assimilation of data in the myriad of books, declassified documents and so-forth, there are still may questions to be answered.
One question is......If the issue of the coded P O Box laughed to scorn by critics of Jim Garrison in the rather strange saga of Lee Odom is such a topic of discussion among idiots, then explain the following.
AGENCY : DOJ
RECORD NUMBER : 179-20001-10374
RECORDS SERIES : CLASSIFIED SUBJECT FILE 129-11, ENCLOSURES, SERIAL #71
DOCUMENT INFORMATION
ORIGINATOR : FBI
FROM : [No From]
TO : [No To]
TITLE : [No Title]
DATE : 07/07/1967
PAGES : 2
DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
SUBJECTS : ODOM, LEE
CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED
RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED
CURRENT STATUS : POSTPONED IN FULL
DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 00/00/0000
COMMENTS : INCLUDES A ROUTING SLIP; BOX 64

Maybe Tel-Tek Electronics is more than just another company, and maybe the frequency of occasions one sees the last name of Martin is more than it being a common last name, why would I say that?
We already know that Jack W. Martin is, if you go by the Secret Service Report in CD 87 the first suspect in the JFK Assassination, before Lee Harvey Oswald, was ever mentioned, in Bertha Cheek's WC Testimony she says a very odd thing, if you look at the quote in the context of there being a Jack W Martin as such

Mrs. CHEEK. [Reading.] You know, you talk to people about investments like Jack Ruby, but I have talked to a number of people. You may not just have an idea that you would invest, if you would make some money. I had no idea that I would. This is nothing permanent about this at all. I was just talking to the people, just went down and talked to him Just like I talked to Bill Martin. Bill Martin could have killed President Kennedy and it would have been the same thing when I talked to him if he did it.


Mrs Cheek also references a Dr Florescent from the Philippines...Really