Duane,

Go through your statement above and check your facts, okay? Make sure you are absolutely sure of everything you have written there - everything. Make sure you are not just repeating something you heard, but have looked things up yourself and are confident that EVERYTHING you have said there is 100% correct.

Let us know when you have done that, okay? When you have checked your work and are prepared to stand by it 100%.

Just a reminder about this. Let me know when you are happy to stand behind all your above claims.

I've split this off from the main Proton 4 thread as it is going to be an entirely separate discussion.

I haven't had the time to research this yet, but so far I haven't seen any footage of the Apollo astronauts inside the cabins during liftoff .

I have seen most of the SpaceCraft films series of the different missions, and never saw any footage of this in any of them either .

But if I find any I will be sure to let you know .... That is unless you would like to stop playing games and post any existing footage here yourself , so you can prove my statement wrong.

Okay, I'll just correct you then.

The cameras inside the spacecraft were used to record the astronauts, and the instrument panels. They were the Milliken DBM-8 for the astronauts, and the DBM-7 for the instruments. They were used during the Mercury series, and on Gemini IV and V (Refer NASA SP-5099 "Photography Equipment & Techniques - A survey of NASA developments" Table 1, Page 15).

There was also live TV footage from the Apollo-Soyuz Test Programme launch (that was Apollo):

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/th...=15&start=1

You can get the whole thing here, but it is a 650 Mb download!

You have got to be kidding ! ... I wasn't talking about some NASA PR mission to LOW EARTH ORBIT launched in 1975 ! ... Of course I knew about that footage .

I was speaking of The Apollo Program that allegedy launched nine manned missions to an alien world, allegedly landing six of them, almost 240,000 miles out into the deadly cosmic radiation of deep space .... NOT some joy ride to low earth orbit for publicity purposes .

As one of NASA's top watchdogs, you must be getting desperate to post this kind of nonsense here as a new topic , just to try to make me look uninformed .

Sorry , but you lost this round because your "rebuttal" has just PROVEN WHAT MY ORIGINAL CLAIM WAS .

NO CAMERAS WERE EVER MOUNTED INSIDE THE APOLLO CRAFTS TO ALLOW ANYONE TO SEE THE ASTRONAUTS DURING LIFTOFF ??

Think about how strange that is .... Cameras were inside the cabins in all of the Mercury and Gemini missions , yet when NASA decided to make that GIANT LEAP FOR ALL MANKIND , NO CAMERAS were to be found anywhere to show the TV audience and mission control what the astronauts looked like being launched in the most powerful rocket to date , the SATURN V ! ....MANKINDS FIRST TRIP TO AN ALIEN WORLD IN THE MOST POWERFUL ROCKET EVER DESIGNED AND NASA HAS NO RECORD OF THE ASTRONUTS INSIDE THE CABIN DURING LAUNCH ! .. And of course the "official explanation " for this little oversight would be that there was no room inside the cabin for that little camera .... NASA's alleged Moon trips get fishier all the time .

You just don't seem to be getting it, Duane. I tried to give you clues, to ask you to check your work 100%... but you decided not to.

You've even proved yourself wrong with your statement above.

Let me point it out in detail so that you can understand where you have gone wrong.

1. You said there were cameras in all the Mercury missions. Correct - though not all the film was recovered. Obviously Grissiom's flight film was lost when the capsule sank, and Cooper's was damaged by exposure to seawater.

2. You said there were cameras in all the Gemini missions. Incorrect - only Gemini II (unmanned), Gemini IV, and Gemini V had cameras mounted to film the astronauts. The other missions did not have film of the astronauts from liftoff; there was only film taken by the astronauts themselves once in orbit.

3. You said no cameras inside Apollo CMs during liftoff. Incorrect - There was a LIVE broadcast for the ASTP mission. ASTP stands for APOLLO Soyuz Test Program. It utilised an APOLLO Command Module.

You have to check your claims for accuracy, Duane, because you have a very poor track record in this respect so far. What you MEANT does not come into it; what matters is what you SAID - repeatedly. If that is NOT important, then by the same standards your Apollo 17 claim ("OUT HERE IN THE SUN") is not important.

Using semantics will not help you this time ... I clearly meant the Apollo "moon landing missions" of The Apollo Program and you know it .... Thus my statement about "mankind's first trip to an alien world " not having any cameras showing the astronauts during lift off ... There were no cameras in the CM cabin during launch, but they did have an emergency escape chute just in case the Saturn V exploded on the launch pad !?!? .. How odd , especially since they would have been toast no matter what, if the rocket blew up during lift off ... The Apollo launches were photographed and filmed from many different angles silmutaneously outside of the Saturn V, so why not inside as well ? ... Unless maybe there was some reason the public wasn't suppossed to see the astronauts during launch .

So unless the the Apollo-Soyuz mission pretended to land men on the Moon also, IT DOESN'T COUNT..

As for ALL of the Gemini missions having cameras in the cabin during launch , I stand corrected .

This is changing the subject a bit, but I have a question maybe our resident Apollo expert can answer .... Why does NASA and all of the Apollo astronauts refer to the Moon as the moon ? ... Everything I have read by NASA , including excerpts from the various books written by our alleged Moon bound astronauts , always spell the word Moon incorrectly with a lower case m ... Is this possibly their way of telling us that it wasn't the real Moon they went to, but perhaps NASA's version of the moon ... as in ; moonset ?

"Out here in the Sun " means HERE , NOT THERE ... If you don't think it's important that's fine ... Everyone is entitled to their own opinion ... I happen to think it was a slip of the tongue said during The Apollo Simulation Project , which was conducted right "here in the Sun "and also right here under a spotlight for the indoor shoots .

Sorry Dave, but I have another nomination for the "Least Convincing Argument" category....

Duane, it's how people write it. I normally write Moon but often write moon. Look over the internet and you'll see the variations used everywhere; in fact, I'd guess that most people do NOT capitalise it.



http://history.nasa.gov/ap11-35ann/index.htm




http://history.nasa.gov/apollo_photo.html

This one quite clearly wins.

EXTRA EXTRA READ ALL ABOUT IT, MOON HOAX UNCOVERED DUE TO ASTRONAUTS SPELLING MOON WITH A LOWER CASE M

I think you guys are doing Duane's latest Apollo-buster an injustice. Being an objective skeptic, I decided to follow the evidence trail, and look where it led me.

If Duane is right, and they didn't go to the Moon, perhaps they went to a moon. A good contender would be Saturn's largest moon, Titan - why else would they use Saturn V rockets?

In the past, the moon Titan has been referred to as Saturn IV and Saturn VI, but never Saturn V - coincidence?

The gravity on Titan is almost identical to that on the Moon, making it easier to fake footage.

Titan has an atmosphere, which would explain the mysterious waving flags.

The moon hoax was a scam of Titan-ic proportions!

Look at this image, supposed to be taken on Titan by the Huygens probe. What proof do we have that it was taken on Titan? None! It could have been taken on Mars for all I know. Or even Redcar beach.



Examining this image reveals subtle clues as well.

I think you have hit on something here Dave, I've been researching this and found a number of surprisingly similar features to that of the moon. A simple coincidence, or a whistle blower blowing the whistle on the AstroNOTS?

Titan is tidally locked in a synchronous orbit around Saturn, just like our moon - coincidence?
Titan's rocky centre is roughly 3,400 km thick. The moons diameter is 3,474 km - coincidence?
Titan's atmosphere is mostly Nitrogen. The lunar module descent and ascent stages were fueled with Dinitrogen tetroxide - coincidence?
If you add the word "Neil" to "Titan" and rearrange the letters, you can form "Alien tint". - coincidence?
Titan is never visible to the unaided eye, just like the Apollo "moon sets". - coincidence?
The first probe to visit was Pioneer 11. Apollo 11 with Pioneer Neil Armstrong. - coincidence?

30 Questions that need to be answered about 'Titan'

1) Why are there no stars in the sky for the Huygens probe picture? Titan is much further away from the Sun than Earth, so stars should have been dazzling in the sky.

2) The nitrogen atmosphere and the surface temperature of -179.45°C (Nearly that of Liquid Nitrogen). I dropped a camera of mine in liquid nitrogen. I did not work afterwards, so how did the probe take pictures of the titan surface?

3) The probe used a parachute to fall to the surface, yet if this is true the parachute would have landed ON TOP of the probe and it wouldn't have been able to take pictures!

4) Landing on a sandy surface displaces sand. There was no evidence of the Titan surface being disturbed on the pictures?

5) How did they know when to open the parachutes on the Probe with an unknown surface and unknown environment?

6) The pictures were lousy. Surely given the exploration of a place we've never seen before they would have put a DECENT camera on the probe!

7) In most Huygens photos, there is a clear line of definition between the rough foreground and the smooth background.

8) There are obviously non parallel shadows in the picture, this can't be the case unless there are multiple LIGHT SOURCES

9) Why did one of the stage prop rocks have a capital "C" on it and a 'C' on the ground in front of it as shown by Dave "Freedom and Truth Fighter" Greer?

10) How did the probes S band antenna survive the tremendous heat of atmospheric re-entry?

11) The probe was seperated from Cassini for THREE WEEKS in the blazing sunlight. Temperatures should have reached 5000 degrees in the probe and the electronics should have been char boiled

12) Why would they risk landing the Huygens Probe on Titan when it'd never been tested before in a space environment!

13) Titan is small, thus lower gravity. The probe would have bounced off the surface, and broken on re impact

13) Apparently over 200 pictures were taken on Titan, yet there is only seemingly one on the internet!

14) The probe would have required a 20 foot width so as to not bounce when it hit the Titan Surface

15) An astrophysicist who has worked for NASA writes that it takes two meters of shielding to protect against medium solar flares and that heavy ones give out tens of thousands of rem in a few hours. Why weren't the electronics fried with this DEADLY SPACE RADIATION

16) The probe had a hole in it (I will show the picture later) and thus the atmosphere should have leaked in and destroyed the probe before it could transmit data?

17) How did the probe transmit data all the way back to Earth with a measley S Band antenna?

18) How did they fit the camera in the small probe, and make it shatter proof for impact?

19) You expect us to believe THIS landed on titan?



It looks like two big dustbin lids clued together with a takeaway curry tray on top!!!!

20) The water sourceair conditioner for the probe should have produced frequent explosive vapor discharges. They never did.

21) They sent a probe all that way, and didn't bother to plant a flag? PLEASE!

22) With a massive time delay between transmission and receiving of data, the Earth would have moved further along in its orbit around the Sun by time the data travelled there - they'd have missed the picture!

23) Why did Cassinis administrator resign days before Launch?

24) How did the probe fly through the deadly radiation of the Van Allen belts? It would have required 6 foot lead shielding to not be effected

25) We cannot even get home PC's to run properly, so how did they make the Huygens Probe software run without crashing? Why was it not infected with spyware and viruses?

26) There is a lot of talk about the ACP experiment on the Huygens Probe. Could this stand for Apollo Creation Program?

27) Why is Huygens not visible through a telescope?

28) In the year 2008 NASA does not have the technology to land on Titan.

29) Why are all the blueprints for Huygens destroyed by NASA?

30) Why are there squares in the only picture that we have of the Titan Surface. Photoshopped? Added in by a whistle blower? Who knows!

Good points Gav.

How anyone believes this contraption flew all the way to Saturn and landed on Titan is beyond me. It looks a like a cheap prop used in "Lost in Space".

Well at least Evan got this one right .



The absurdity posted above by Evan , Gavin and Dave would have to be some of the silliest OFF TOPIC MOCKERY TAP DANCING ever posted here yet .

What's the matter boys ? ... You having trouble explaining away why there were NO CAMERAS INSIDE THE CABIN DURING THE APOLLO MOON BOUND MISSIONS DURING LAUNCH BUT THERE WAS AN "EMERGENY ESCAPE CHUTE " ready and waiting to get the astronots off JUST IN CASE THE ROCKET BLEW UP DURING LIFTOFF ?

Duane, simple question and it requires a simple answer:

Did they launch in the Saturn V, yes or no?

They either did, and you admit that the camera is irrelevant to them launching or they didn't, in which case your Apollo in LEO orbit is shot down. Which one is it Duane? You can't have the best of both worlds.

Hey look what I found boys !! .... Video footage taken inside the cabins of the Shuttle showing the astronauts during launch !!

Space Shuttle cockpit during launch with internal comms!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_vLl3K8yzOk


NASA Space Shuttle STS-121 Launch Cockpit View

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5WdQHQY0xJs


And even video footage of Alan Shepard inside the cabin during launch on his Mercury mission !!!

Alan Shepard: Mercury Freedom 7, May 5, 1961

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XasiezwcWA8


But still not one video clip of the Apollo astronots allegedy heading for the moon, er , I mean the Moon, during the launch of the Saturn V ! ... How strange is that ???

But I did find that video again showing us THE APOLLO EMERGENCY ESCAPE CHUTE .

James Burke demonstrates Apollo Saturn emergency precautions

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pLiAwSKkm6k


Wait a minute ! ... I did find this one still photo of the Apollo astronots in their cabin during launch !



How about that ?

You started it with your Moon/moon madness. I think you've been reading a bit too much Dark Moon old bean!



Why should anyone need to explain why there were no cameras? Even fully bolted-on HBers like Percy concede that the APollo 11 astronauts were at least in Earth orbit for the duration of the mission. How did they get there, wishful thinking? Or maybe reverse-engineered alien technology? Or - shock horror - perhaps they actually used a Saturn V rocket! Seems such a waste to spend all that time developing a rocket to get a lunar craft into LEO, then for the astronauts just to "beam up" into the CSM once it was in orbit.

Guess what? I haven't got a clue why there were no cameras in the cabin! Why should anyone consider this evidence that the Apollo programme was faked - especially someone who agrees with Percy that the Apollo 11 TV footage was faked in Earth orbit! And if they didn't go into LEO, why didn't they just fake the cabin lift-off footage, like you say they faked hours and hours of TV and DAC footage from the surface of the moon - a feat of monstrous complexity compared to filming someone in a CSM simulator while a couple of burly youths rock the outside of the cabin!

Here's a thought - maybe they decided against cabin cameras because of weight considerations?

As for questioning the validity of the Launch Escape System (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "Emergency Escape Chute") - wow! NASA actually built a safety feature into there launch system! FAKE!

Fair question:

Did they launch in the Saturn V, yes or no?

What do you say, Duane?

How do you fake three men sitting on Saturn V rockets as they launch ?

Get with the hoax program old bean .... Bill Kaysing always suspected there was nobody aboard the Saturn V's, and he would know because he worked for Rocketdyne .



"Weight" is the only excuse you come up with ? .... The largest and most powerful rocket ever designed and you think one little camera in the cabin showing the astronauts during launch would be too much extra weight ???

The cameras they used later on were there already, adding to the weight .

Nine alleged trips to the Moon and not one reel of film from the cabin prior to and including launch ??... How very strange .

Most of NASA's missions prior to, and all of them following Apollo had a camera in the cabin but they JUST FORGOT about the moon trips ??

Even the makers of the movie Capricorn One remembered to put a camera there for the crucial scene when the Astronots are removed from the rocket.



Yes.

I notice you completely ignored the parts of my post that referred to Apollo 11 footage being in filmed at the very least in LEO, as acknowledged by David Percy, Bart Sibrel, Jarrah White and even yourself since you agree with their theories! Please explain how did they get there, and back up your claim with evidence.

Ta!

So Duane, you agree they launched in the Saturn V, so how is no video evidence of them during launch proof of a hoax? They undoubtedly made the trip into a parking orbit initially!!!

Do you agree that it seems highly unusual that not a single reel of film exists of the Apollo Astros strapped in the cabins on top of the Saturn V's bound for the moon?

Especially considering prior to and after Apollo, NASA made this a priority.

Yes or no?

Ta.




I never said that no cameras recording the Apollo astronots during launch was proof of a hoax .... The staged Apollo photographs are proof of a hoax .

Read my posts again if you're confused as to what we are discussing here and what my claims are .

Or just read my question to Dave and answer it yourself if you would like.

Still avoiding the question old bean? You're doing a Jarrah - changing tack and hoping the question you don't want to answer will quietly disappear.

In answer to your question: IMO it would be have been nice to have footage of the crew during lift-off, but the lack of that footage cannot be construed as evidence of shennanigans on NASAs part, since we know they were in earth orbit! And you can scoff all you like, but weight considerations are mightily important. I don't know if that's the reason for a lack of cabin launch video, but it's a possibility.

Now, do the decent thing old chap and return the favour: answer the question you've been hoping will go away!

I'm sorry but I have ADD... Could you please repeat the question ?

Oh, this question ?



Yes, I agree with my fellow CT's that the Apollo astronots made it as far as LOW EARTH ORBIT ! .... But I'm afraid that I can't back that up with any evidnence because THERE WERE NO CAMERAS IN THE CABIN DURING LIFTOFF PROVING THAT THE APOLLO ASTRONOTS WERE REALLY IN THE ROCKET DURING LAUNCH !



MAYBE YOU THINK IT WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE TO SEE SUCH FOOTAGE BUT I THINK PERHAPS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A PRIORITY FOR NASA TO BE FILMING LAUNCHES FROM THE EXACT SAME SPOT THEY HAD FILMED PREVIOUS MISSIONS AND PROBABLY EVERY MISSION SINCE THEN.

WHEN YOU ARE ALREADY CARRYING A TV CAMERA AND A 16 MM DAC FOR USE IN THE CM FOR TRANSMITTING BACK TO TERRESTIAL TV STATIONS AND FOR SOME NICE, "LOOK, WE ARE IN ZERO GRAVITY" HOME MOVIES, THEN I AM HAVING DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING WHAT THIS WEIGHT CONSIDERATION WAS ??

TELL ME HOW YOU KNOW FOR A FACT THAT APOLLO 11 WAS FLYING TO THE MOON IN ZERO G THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY FROM THE EARTH ?

WAS IT BECAUSE NEIL ARMSTRONG ASSUMES AN UPSIDE DOWN BAT IN A CAVE POSITION AT ONE POINT, OR WAS THE BLUE EARTH ATMOSPHERE LIGHT STREAMING THROUGH BOTH SIDES OF THE CM "COLORED BY NITROGEN FILLED WINDOWS" THE CLINCHER FOR YOU ?

You don't need cabin footage during liftoff - you have cabin footage when they're in space! Whether that footage be in LEO or after TLI, they were in space! Now, use a bit of logic. If we know they are in space, we know they must have got there somehow. Maybe they flapped their wings. Maybe they beamed up to a craft already in orbit, Star Trek fashion. Maybe they fell into a rift in the space-time continuum, and by some incredibly ironic twist of fate, ended up in the CSM. Or maybe they just got into orbit in a Saturn V rocket. Fancy that!



For the love of God, STOP SHOUTING!

OK, so you think NASA should have made cabin footage a priority. Perhaps you should write to them and give them a piece of your mind. Give them a jolly good ticking off. Get it off your chest.

The main issue is that you can not possibly use this as evidence that Apollo was faked, since you ADMIT they were at the very least in Earth orbit! And don't pull the old "But I never said it was evidence of fakery" trick, all your Apollo posts are related to the Hoax Theory. You can question the lack of cabin footage all you like, but surely you must realise that if they were in space, it's highly likely they were in the cabin at launch?

Well, proof that there were people in the capsule during Apollo 12 can be presented when the astronauts reported the systems failures during the launch. They said they thought they may have been hit by lightning... which was confirmed later (actually, they were hit twice).

Regaining data from the CSM was only obtained by the famous 'SCE to AUX' - a setting that could ONLY be obtained by manual manipulation of the switch in the CM during the launch. They then had to realign the platform through MANUAL star sightings; again only possible if there were people in the CM that was in orbit.

If Apollo 12 had been a 'unmanned' launch, then the whole thing would have been exposed as a fake due to system incidents that required manual intervention.

Who's shouting ? ... I merely posted in caps... Is that a crime here also ?

I don't question whether or not the Apollo astronots were in earth orbit ... It's pretty obvious that they at least got that far, for many reasons, including all of the color footage of them in the CM taken for the TV audience around the world.

What I am questioning is why in God's name did NASA pick their most important missions of all NOT to film the astronauts in the cabin during launch ?

This was a first , not only for the Saturn V being launched to LEO but also a first for the alleged manned missions to the Moon ... So to not have cameras inside the cabin during liftoff is completely senseless, if not completely negligent !!

If something had gone wrong during that time, or if the astronauts were in any kind of trouble during launch, NASA would not be able to see what was taking place in the cabin !

So I will ask you one last time .... Don't you find it highy strange that no cameras were positioned in the cabins during liftoff for the
"greatest technological achievement of all mankind " ??

YES OR NO ? ( And that was not shouting !!! )

No, I don't find it strange. There was a multitude of telemetry from the capsule - pressures, temps, heart rates, breathing rate, voltages, voice, vibrations, acceleration, etc, etc. There was no particular need for the cockpit camera. Perhaps they should of had one - it would have been nice... but was it operationally essential? No. Did it form part of the mission requirements? No.

Remember Apollo 7? Wally Schirra was unhappy about a TV camera being brought aboard to transmit from orbit. There was much angst about it on the flight, though Wally later admitted it was a good idea:

"In retrospect it seems inconceivable, but serious debate ensued in NASA councils on whether television should be broadcast from Apollo missions, and the decision to carry the little 4 1/2- pound camera was not made until just before this October flight. Although these early pictures were crude, I think it was informative for the public to see astronauts floating weightlessly in their roomy spacecraft, snatching floating objects, and eating the first hot food consumed in space. Like the television pictures, the food improved in later missions."

http://www.wallyschirra.com/apollo.htm

Internet etiquette - netiquette. Upper case is good for highlighting certain words or phrases, but using it on entire passages is considered the equivalent of shouting, and makes it more difficult to read.



I've already answered the question. It would have been nice to have that as part of the historical record, and it would help to know the reasoning behind the decision (weight considerations was speculation on my part, but one that makes sense). Perhaps it could have been possible to set up the camera they used later to monitor the cabin during lift off. Do I find it highly strange? No. Do I wish we had the footage? Yes.

GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU?

Having just read Guenter Wendt's THE UNBROKEN CHAIN, I see there were lots of photos of the astronauts being strapped in to the CM, the gifts they gave the crews, the 'gotchas' they played, etc.

Perhaps you'd like to ask these people - the people who strapped them in, who saw the spacecraft then launch.

Yes.... and PLEASE STOP SHOUTING !