Sorry to see that this forum has become nothing more than a "Chat-Chat" forum for little kids... however little kids could get more done that what the grown ups do around here. It did not use to be that way.

What meaningful research has come from here in the past 12 months... nothing but name calling, tickling ears, fighting, and the likes... Take a look at yourselves... Shame shame... shame.... AND I too have fallen into the trap... but I'm going to extract myself and work in other avn... to do what this forum was set up to do... Inteligent Debate... Not CHAT CHAT CUSE AND CALL people liars and fabricators.

No thanks to you.

As someone who fits the same Operataional Profile as the accused assassin, someone who has been through the system, as someone who could help explain some of the tradecraft, lexicons and procedures, who knows many of the players personally, and still being alive, you are in a unique position to help independent researchers interested in resolving many of the outstanding questions about the assassination.

Instead, you keep harping about whether people believe you and your bizarre story of being sent to DP as part of an assassination abort team, and nitpicking with those who ask legitimate questions that could help them advance their own research.

Now you are doing what TG did before he got monitored and disapeared - making numerous irrelevant posts and responding negatively to minor points.

Why don't you just post some more interesting official documents (not the same one over and over) and let us ask you some questions?

For starters, did you know or ever meet John Martino and figure out his relationship to Rosselli?

And what's your story about the bullfighter?

Thanks,

Bill Kelly

Thanks Bill:
I feel I have in the past helped research into the JFK mess. I have given names dates and safehouses.. I have said how I knew Martino, Roselli Hunt Farrentello, and a host of others as well as LHO... If you think I am an assassin thats O.K. too. I have tried to help and I have spent hours answering questions only to be taken off into never never land and hijacked threads that go nowhere and cursed out on this forum. I'm sorry you feel the way you do but I respect that.

Yes. I knew Martino and was "an associate" what that means I moved money and flew people around the country Mafia as well as CIA and Military from the Pentagon. I have said Farrentello and others introduced me to Rosellie at Bay Front Park Biscane Bay at the end of Flager St not far from Sloopy Joes". and on and on and on... I was at one time to detailed I was told.... another not detailed enought......

All I can say at this point is read my book... don't buy it... just read it. In there you will find some your answers. I'll send you a FREE copy.

As to documents many have recently been declassified and released and others I have posted and some have posted many I do not have.

All I can say at this time is read it in my book due to be released this fall "Deep Cover Shallow Graves". Seems the new releases and declassified documents and the release of detailed reports of the Kerry Committee as well as the CIA declassified 80TXXXX and a few 302 and 202 and a few more 104's perked the ears of a reliable and established publisher. Most of the info was stated before the releases and the names of which I allegde years ago are in the new releases..... any more than that? I can't help you at this time..... I recently tried to start in 1952 and bring it foerward, but that was blocked.

If I could have got to that point then I would have explain what happen to me after I was released from ther service. I worked for Southwest Airmotive, Trans Texas Airline... Then Riddle Airlines, and Regina Cuban Air Cargo carrier (1955-61) as an Aircraft Mechanic and thereafter Flight Mech. In 1972 some of the companies I worked for proved to be CIA Front companies.... Southwest Aero Charted, Inter-Mountain, Evergreen before it was Evergreen,, World Air, and many which I have already named... but they will be in the book in more detail with some more interesting names.

I told John Simkin I would expand on my BIO after he ask me two. I told him I would and I am in process of doing, In spite of what you think I do try to keep my word... some of the info I just told you about will be in that Bio... names and places and dates... In spite of what you think... I am and trying to do my part... Time is an important commodity for you as well as I. small points big points take time some prople do not want to hear or read what I have to say so they block it in many ways...... anyway I do apreciate your honest, but negative feelings toward me and that his O.K also. I wish you the best and I do hope you find your answers someday.

Now you are doing what TG did before he got monitored and disapeared - making numerous irrelevant posts and responding negatively to minor points.

Bill Kelly

It has crossed my mind that since TG has more or less vanished since he has been put on moderation, that WP is posting in the exact same annoying multi post Forum flooding with garbage accusations manner as TG.
Is this coincidence? or are they one and the same person? No accusations, Just a thought.

Duncan

QUOTE(Duncan MacRae @ Jan 21 2008, 12:55 PM)

Now you are doing what TG did before he got monitored and disapeared - making numerous irrelevant posts and responding negatively to minor points.

Bill Kelly

It has crossed my mind that since TG has more or less vanished since he has been put on moderation, that WP is posting in the exact same annoying multi post Forum flooding with garbage accusations manner as TG.
Is this coincidence? or are they one and the same person? No accusations, Just a thought.

Duncan

Duncan: Tim Gratz called me one day out of the blue and we had a very pleasant talk. I have spoken with Tosh MANY times and I can assure you they are two totally different people.

Tosh came back to try to help. When he has been asked a question he answered it. See posts between Tosh and Charles Drago, or posts between Tosh and Francisca (apologise for not knowing the spelling). He also answered Greg Parker's many questions. Then Bill Kelly's, answered today. And Purvis's ...but then the nit picking started. Constantly asking about what happended at age 14. If his entry into the Nat'l Guard was done so legally, if there existed parental signatures and the like. How on earth is this at all relevent to the issue of what Tosh was involved in LATER? We know that kids got pulled into military/ intel situations. Of course it was not under any "usual" circumstances. Our wonderful government does not play by the rules when it comes to using kids for their dirty deeds.

Then a very important documet that Tosh put up disappeared two days ago. He did not take it down. The certified copy of his mil record showing he was a corporal at but 16 and 18. Fortunately Tosh had also sent this to Peter who re-posted it, but not a very good copy, so Tosh has also now reposted it.

Tosh re-posted an old post by Hemming where he called Tosh names and used the A word. Tosh was edited. I understand the rules and abide by them. His point is that people here are calling him a liar, by implication and the mods say nothing, but if he posts the A word he is put on moderation. Perhaps he is being overly sensitive about this point (the A word stuff). But he has taken a lot of time this last week to try to respond with real and useful information. He's answered questions. Specific questions with specific answers. But the continual nitpitcking has gotten old for me. And I see that it has for him as well. Seems he can't win.
Dawn

I have received a few PMs from Mr. Plumlee which I cannot reply to because I get this message:

"This message can not be sent because the recipient has their personal messenger disabled or they are in a member group not allowed to use the personal messenger.
This personal message has not been sent."


This is quite OK by me, however, I am unclear at this point where the real problem lies. And because of the above, I am answering on the board, which I don't care to do, but someone needs to say something.

As for the liar implication---are folks just disagreeing with you? You are certainly entitled to post what you want, but so are they. There are always some who will question you openly, as this is a a debate forum. We cannot give you a blanket assurance that everything you write will be considered "gospel", and surely, I don't think you'd want that anyway.

All that Antti did was change a word by adding a few X's---this did not take away from the tenor of the post. For us to have missed a prior post with the "word" is because we do not read every post. (Several folks here have problems with us X'ing words, and I understand that, but it is a rule.)

As for the document being removed(and I don't know which thread that is and I cannot privately ask) I can assure you that it was not done by the Admins or the moderators for if it were, you would've been told. The fact that Peter was able to post it (and I'm getting this information from Dawn's post) should demonstrate that fact. It could've been a technical error. Again, I don't know in which thread this document was.


We appreciate you being here, but, remember, this forum is full of researchers looking for answers. Questioning is part and parcel of that process. Someone disagreeing with you is not a personal attack.


Kathy

I can verify that Tosh can get quite easily upset/frustrated at times. While it was he who put up the documents, mostly about his early carreer, I think for all of us what he was or was not involved with at a much later point is of greater significance. Some here would try to make the point that if you could find an instance where Tosh said he had laced his shoes in the 50's and you could find a photo that showed his shoe unlaced, it would negate all else he ever said or did. Some of you nit-picking need, perhaps, to take a bath with one of those pesticide preparations. Yes, as researchers we 
eed to examine all details and details are important....but.....don't heckle and badger. [and Tosh, you need to understand that some are just trying to do their job and don't know you personally and all you've been through and the frustrations etc.]

Hi, Tosh
As one who has also been suspected of fitting the profile of involvement [via several publications}
over many decades, mostly in a sinister way, even though laboring to aid the JFK cause since 1965,
I understand your own upward struggle. No doubt it was/is the adventurous spirit, that was born in
some of us, whose pasts are wrongly remembered but never forgiven!

In any case here is a request for your book, only if you will contact me for a 'billing' address.
Amigo, Harry
hjay1212@wmconnect.com

As one who witnessed many of the Tosh/Hemming flame wars a few years back, I understand Tosh's frustration. Hemming would attack Tosh as being a fraud, while at the same time disrupting his threads, as if to say "you're not allowed to write about this even though it isn't true". When you try to shut someone up, you inadvertently give them credibility, especially to people already prone to believing in conspiracies.

I suggest that people let Tosh share what he wants to share, and that they hold back judgment until he's shared it all.

Tosh is not on permanent moderation. I have not threatened to request that he be placed under moderation. As far as I know this is not the issue. As moderators, we have to edit posts which contain bad language, ok, at times we miss a few posts and would appreciate members pointing those posst out to us, via reporting them.

On a different note. If there are posts which a memebr deems hurtful, mean or otherwise inappropriate, please report such posts. I have had two reports from Tosh. Both for the same post - and yes, they were reports for his own post. I pointed out earlier, that he may edit his own posts. Members are under control (normally) of what is posted under their individual membership accounts. I.e. no need to report ones' own posts.




Me too.

Here is the post of old: and what led up to the exchange: ref post "I Ran Drugs for Uncle Sam Dec 20, 2005

QUOTE(William Plumlee @ Dec 21 2005, 06:26 PM)


QUOTE(George Bollschweiler @ Dec 21 2005, 12:19 AM)


QUOTE(William Plumlee @ Dec 21 2005, 04:16 AM)

Does anyone have a copy of the article, "I ran Drugs for Uncle Sam", by Neal Matthews, San Diego Reader, April 1990? If so would you care to post the " MILITARY MAP" that was printed with the article. I think anyone who thinks they know about these operations would find the names and places of interest that are recordered on this map.

There is a lot of talk and names being thrown around... Post the Map, if you have it, and the date the map went to the Senate of the United States. Take a look at those names and aircraft ID numbers.

Where are the researchers?.... You have missed the 'Meatball".




Tosh, here is a link to the article unfortunately the map itself is not very clear but I'm sure someone of the forum members can produce a better one. www.phoenixarchives.com/express/1991/0591/13-06.pdf

(don't know why its not working here but if you copy and past into goggle it does)



George

Fm Plumlee

Thank You George for the link. As you know that article has been hidden for over a decade. The map is a very important link in understanding the operations down there. I might add that this map was marked before the public firestorm hit in the mid eighties and the Iran/Contra matter became public knowledge (as noted in the Letter from then Senator Gary Hart, Dem of Colorado, to the Senate Foriegn Relations Committee in 1983) Do you have a copy of that letter. I think it has been posted on this forum a few months ago.

Thanks again. Good Research

Tosh


----------------------------GPH POST DEC> 21, 2005 5:37 in nreference to I RAN DRUGS FOR UNCLE SAM.......

And once again, here is "Tooshee" posting an exact description of his "snitch-self" !! This is the clown who heroically tells some San Diego trash-tabloid scribbler about "waving" a white hanky out the window as a signal to the [b]nasty-ass dopers. Then, our hero, SITTING IN THE RIGHT SEAT of a DC-3, starts the left engine first.


Hey dumb-ass !! Ever heard of "Google" ??!! Crank in "DC-3/C-47" and then tell us how you reached across the whole overhead panel to "start an engine". The left-seater starts the engines, "pseudo-zoomie"; and you always start the RIGHT ENGINE first, because that's the one which has both the electric generator and the hydraulic pump !! What a phony !!


And then, amidst .50 calibre "Ma Duece" tracers, the dumb-ass pilot "turns into the wind??" Any comic-book reader knows that you ALWAYS TAXI BACK to the landing end of the strip -- and if the dumb-ass beaners have the Trucks/Toyotas at the wrong end -- tough titty, they follow as you taxi back. And shutting down even one engine, when it's NOT a refueling site ?? "WHAFOO YOU SO DUMB ??"


And that gas station "MAP" -- with a bunch of stupid scribbling on it ??!! WHAT ?? exactly is that supposed to prove. Yeah, about the same as your 2 page PDF "file?". And of course there is everybody on the planet who fails to grasp the insider scoop on Kiki Camera's demise ??!! Give us a break. What is it, you got another gullible fish on the hook again.
Sue a homeless skid-row snitch ?? You gotta be kidding. But, tell you what I will do, I've got 8 lbs. of snitch files on YOU, which somebody forgot to "Klassy-Lie" (LOL) -- and I think it is time for some of the members to do some interesting reading about "Tooshee-san" !!


When "Googling" turns up two pages of worthless crap, I can see why you feing ignorance of that search-engine. Please guys, gals, and gullibles -- find my "map" and my phony "I ran dope for the big Uncle" crap-story -- Huh, pretty please !!

Get a life, and go bug "Wimp-Drank-to-much-Beer".

END of THAT POST[/b]

I find the above very degrading toward me and toward this forum and its members... however, this post has stood on this forum un corrected when it has been proven that the person had lied and degrade another forum member.
I ask a question and received the above respond from that flake.

When I asked and posted a reply from two pilots who stated this person was wrong and it was not corrected... I ask why the DOUBLE STANDARD......... To let this post stand by being called a liar by tone, style, and context. is the reason I am Pxxxed.... THe point of the post was to prove you can start a DC-3 from the right seat and I posted the reply frpom two qualified pilots..... I only ask a questionI got slammed by that AH and then this forum:


HERE IS THE POST ABOUT THE MAP AND ETC> THAT I POSTED AND EDITED THE CURSE WORD BEFORE I POSTED>> ALSO NOTE THE INFORMATION ON HOW TO START A DC-3 WAS NOT ADDRESSED And too, I PROVED THIS PERSON WRONG BY POSTING INFORMATION FROM TWO PILOTS ABOUT STARTING A DC-3 FROM THE RIGHT SEAT.

ARE THERE ANY FORUM RULES AS TO DEGRADING POST ....MISS INFORMATION..... DEROGATORY REMARKS....KNOWINGLY TAKING INFORMATION Out OF CONTEXT, MISS QUOTING AND MAKING INFERENCE THAT ONE IS A LIAR AND THE LIKES. EXAMPLE:

Plumlee "...A few weeks ago I was told by a young researcher 20 years old, that I had never been a pilot and was never in a DC3 type aircraft. So xxxxx took anything I had to say with a grain of salt and as a result did not background check anything concerning JFK because XXX said I was a BS artist. Following is an example of how dis information is put forth. You can not prove a negative. Those who hi jack threads and put false information on forums do more damage to the research community than hundreds of CIA "clean-up artist".

I only post this as an example. Why it was never posted before now is beyond me.


E-Mail copy: (OK'd by sender)

Rodney. The following information was posted awhile back to discredit me. (2005) Another DC-3 pilot (Dixion) came to my rescue, but it was not posted or addressed on that forum at the time. And now I am being told because of that post that I have never been in a DC-3. Ha 2500 logged hrs in that bird. One old DC-3 pilot did come forward in by behalf but it did not get posted.

Would you care to comment on this? The following is the exchange......... ...".

note: From another post in respond to a question Mr Plumlee asked the Forum

"...And once again, here is "Tooshee" posting an exact description of his "snitch-self" !! This is the clown who heroically tells some San Diego trash-tabloid scribbler about "waving" a white hanky out the window as a signal to the nasty-XXX dopers. Then, our hero, SITTING IN THE RIGHT SEAT of a DC-3, starts the left engine first.


Hey dumb-XXX !! Ever heard of "Google" ??!! Crank in "DC-3/C-47" and then tell us how you reached across the whole overhead panel to "start an engine". The left-seater starts the engines, "pseudo-zoomie"; and you always start the RIGHT ENGINE first, because that's the one which has both the electric generator and the hydraulic pump !! What a phony !!.......

.................


,.... .... ....

gals, and gullibles -- find my "map" and my phony "I ran dope for the big Uncle" crap-story -- Huh, pretty please !!


Get a life, and go bug "Wimp-Drank-to-much-Beer". ...". end of post.E Mail reply with permission Reply to above derog post by XXX:

from MV Dixion to Education Forum Att. Mr Simkin, Education Forum:

Mr. Dixion's reply to XXX postings in reference to DC-3. ( Dixion was a DC-3 pilot DC-10 capt. for Cont. Airlines.

Mr. Dixion's reply to post

"... The following is not true. I tried to counter this wrong information but could not because I am not a member, nor do I want to be one. I thought you might like this information. I would think other DC-3 pilots would come forward and support a fellow pilot.

December 06. Capt Dixion's reply. note. He could not reply to post because he was not a member of that forum.

"....My name is M.V. Dixion and I live outside Escondido Ca. I was directed to this website by another pilot friend of mine. I am a retired Airline pilot and flew the DC-3 for seven years in the 1960-67, and have over six thousand hours in that aircraft. I retired from the Airlines after 35 years, with the same company, in 1994 as a DC-10 Capt. based out of LAX.

I notice the slam on this fellow pilot and thought I would add my two cents worth.

1. Yes you can start a DC-3 from the right hand seat. In fact I have flown the DC-3 solo many times from the right seat.

2. The gentleman who stated that the hydraulic punp is on the left engine is wrong. The DC- 3 had hydraulic pumps on both engines Pratt&Whittney 1830's (and 1830-92 series of engines) Perhaps the gentleman has his aircraft mixed up. The DC-4 had the hyd- pump on the number 3 engine Ask any pilot about this.

I think this person wants to discredit Mr Plumlee who ask for information about an article and map. I see it as an attack on the person who ask for information. But that is not my interest to get engaged in that sort of debate. Anyway the information about the DC-3's hyd pump is wrong, as well as other statements made by himIIf you have questions you can reach me through the ALPA and I would be happy to reply in more detail. I do not like to see a pilot take in in the shorts as this person seems to want to do to the DC-3 pilot, Plumlee) who only ask a question about a map..



I reference this exchange on the Education Forum.

Poster's, remarks and reply to Mr. Plumlee's question asking for help in locating a map of Central America: (2004-2005)

Hello Tosh, (Rondey Stitch 2008)

Thanks for giving me the referrals. I copied them to my computer and will print them out and absorb the details when my printer is fixed. Everything sounds interesting.

........ .......... .....
I read the negative comments. If it were me, I'd ignore it. Further, if you had a type rating in the DC-3, that would immediately discredit the other party and then I'd drop it.

I flew the DC-3 (got my type rating in it from American Flyers, Fort Worth, in 1951, and also type rated in the DC-4, with lots of time in that. It has been many decades ago, but I can not see any problem with either pilot's positions starting the engines. The sequence of engine starts in the DC-4 were 3, 4, 2, 1.

The ratings I received were DC-3, DC-4, DC-8, Convair 240//340/440 and the 880 jet; Martin 202/404; Curtis C-46. I received one of the first ATP pilot ratings in Japan, # 170 (Orville Wright was before me!!!)

Again, why not get your story out, and it could be not only in print form but on the Internet.

Best wishes,

Rodney Stich End of Email



P.S. I was warned when I used the word S... and the word A.. H...e in a reply and If I did not stop I would be taken off the forum. Makes me wonder about this form of selective enforcement found on this Forum.

I support the work on this forum and John Simkin's dedication to try and get to the truth about Dallas and beyond. I would like to see its members focus on issues and supporting evidence and the facts and information which is available from dedicated researchers.

I have been warned by the powers that be not to go on Forums anymore. Well I am not the type that will be intiminated by those A.. H... e's

Here I am. Now take you best shot.


CODE
Edited for language.


This post has been edited by Antti Hynonen: Today, 12:44 AM

I DO NOT WANT TO GETR INTO A LICKING MATCH WITH THIS FORUM BUT I SEE IT HAS GONE INTO DOUBLE STANDARD MODE>


PS I EDITED THE ABOVE POST BEFORE I POSTED>>>> LATER I USED YOUR WORD AXXX AND GOT EDITED ....FACT


I don't really give a S;;; Its your deal.... I tried... I see this as a double standard... this is one of many I have had to deal with for the four years I have tried to exchange and give information I might have in reference to the JFK matter.... muy threads have been hi-jacked and I have been warned... and bla bla and whine whine... SHOVE IT UP YOU KNOW WHERE>>>


Now I posted the original post. This all over the word AXX of which I edited from the orginal post of Dec 21, 2005 @5:37

The reason this came up was because a lady of 20 years told me I was wrong and I had never been in a DC-3 as she obtain from the post in question...

Now I am taking your time to untangle this mess in place of doing real research... for that I am sorry..... BUT not for pointing out this 'Double Standard".

I am clearing the air and trying to answer the questions directed to me as I said I would..... I know you have not read this nor care... I used a dirty word and that is the issue... not the question I asked and the nasty reply I received.... consul me again i do know the forum rules and I do abide by them and I expect others to do likewise... I have just wasted an hour responding to this type of BS in place of working on the case at hand...

DO You SEE what I mean?... The tone and the style and the context of the original reply and post of "I Ran Drugs for US" by this person
is the issue not the little curse word AXXX. The mis information in the post has never been addressed even when good people send letters proveing the information posted by the PERSON is wrong and presented in a manner to DEGRADE.

I try to help you people the best I can... But I get taken off into never never land with this type of stuff rather than doing any meaniful work..And answering the HARD QUESTIONS. You are the Moderators You untangle this false information posted by one of your forum members.. I do not have time for this crap.


READ MY BOOK AND THEN THROW IT IN THE CRAPER.... IT MIGHT EVEN HAVE A BAD WORD OR TWO IN IT>>> AND THAT WOULD BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHAT INFORMATION IS IN IT>

This forum is many things. In fact, it is what members want it to be. Over the years we have had several people posting who have been involved in some way with cases like the JFK assassination and Watergate. This has included Tosh Plumlee, Gerry P. Hemming, Harry J. Dean, Nathaniel Weyl, Dennis D. David, Doug Caddy, Alfred Baldwin, Adele Edisen, Doug Horne, Wayne Smith, Vaughn Marlowe, Judyth Vary Baker, Daniel Marvin. Angel Murgado, etc. There have been other important figures but they were given permission to use assumed names.

Some like Harry Dean and Doug Horne have openly answered questions. However, most of the "witnesses" have been selective in the questions that they want to answer. Others have become very hostile to those asking difficult questions. That is the way it is. It is up to the visitors to the forum to decide who is telling the truth.

Dear Mr. Plumlee,
Thank you for your reply and clarification.

This Forum (JFK section alone) contains over 80,000 individual posts. Most of these (I guess about 60,000) were posted before moderators were appointed to the Forum. Moderators were appointed roughly one year ago.

It would be a huge undertaking to review all old posts on this Forum. This is why posts, such as the one you posted today (from the year 2005), have not been edited.



Sincerely,
Antti Hynonen

It is also a problem keeping genuine JFK researchers onboard. John Kelin has told me that he will no longer be posting because of "insulting comments" made by members. It is impossible to censor all these comments but I plead with all genuine researchers not to resort to comments that will drive important people away.

FINE. Lets move on and I will try my damest to answer the HARD question as I have the time AND TOO, I will try to stay on the subject and NOT be lead into NEVER-NEVER land by those who want a stroke or two or for their egos.. I will try to stay focus on what this Forum is trying to Do with the information on JFK that is available. I too, would like to fit this puzzel together. I was a very SMALL player in those days and some questions you can not apply todays standards to days of old. AND too, I was not of the grade to known many secret matters as to the planning and those involved (in spite of what some might think).

Things were different back in those days (50s-70s) and applying what we know today is like Monday night quarter backing... I respect what people think of me good or bad. I was a young man of 14, military a Cpl got into a big mess and at 18 I was flying for CIA companies and had association with the Pentagon, military, White House Sit Room and Nat Sec. as well as org crime and the likes... say what you want about me.... I can't change what I was involved in.... It was a different day and a different time and a different world back then..... I was asked to write this book DEEP COVER SHALLOW GRAVES... Years ago I tried to write it but there was no, or very limited documentation to support my claim..And my house got burned to the ground. Today there are a lot of supporting documentation.., some of which I have tried to share with you. I will forge ahead with or without this FORUM. I too, want the Blanks filled in for me... and believe me there are many.

I am traveling doing research in some real tricky matters. I sure some will say when I do not respond in a day or two that I ran from the Hard Questions......... Why is it so important to discredit me... If what I say and have said all these years is fabricated then why so much flak, yesterday and today... I once used the term:
"The Hip Bone Connected to the Thigh Bone and the Thigh Bone connected to the ...". That is my life from 14 on and now 70 plus....Can't anyone see? It will not be long before the Powers that Be are kicked out of office and then perhaps we can move forward toward truth as to Kenedy and other matters held Secret for all these years. If someone tries to Kill me it would only PROVE me... I think THEY who ever they are, would be sure I do not even stump a toe while walking on a deserted beach... forgive the typos and spelling I have other things to do but this was important.....

Dawn,

Here is a complete (but probably not chronological) list of the questions I've put, with answers received:

Q: Is it now accepted that Tosh's enlistment into the National Guard was legal?
A: No response
[current comment. Question was based on incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]

Q: If not, why not?
A: No response

[current comment. Those two questions were based on an incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]

Q: The separation form indicates zero overseas service. Was this an innocent error, or deliberate cover-up?
A: No response

Q: How does the separation form help support the VA statement concerning being Korean Vet, given that in reality it contradicts it?
A: No response

Q: The MPs in the DMZ were UN. You were attached to the UN?
A: No response

Q: Do you believe you were targeted for this [Special Ops as a youth] because of your police record?
A: I had a choice go into the army or go to Jev until 18 then jail. I was told this by the FBI and the Judge on the case. anyway and they approved my enlistment.

Q: Was parental consent requested and granted?
A: They (the court close door chambers) told my mother and father it would be best for me, because if I kept going the way I was I would be in prison by the time I was 20. However, they did not sign any papers. I joined anyway

They (the court, the FBI, and the Army) new I was in the Texas National Guard as a tank driver, Sherman. My parents did not know I went into the regular army until I came home on leave from Ft Bliss. They just thought I ran away again and the law would bring me back. I was accepted into the regular army and they (the army) knew of my probation and age. In fact my real age and birth date is on my discharge papers which have been posted... as well as where I worked as a aircraft mech at Southwest Airmotive (they got me that job at Southwest.... I agreed to be hon discharged and sent back to Dallas until I turned 18 of which I did. and I went back to work at Southwest (note: I was ran over by a jeep at Ft Bliss in 1954 and was at Wm Baumont Army Hospital for 14 days.)

Q: You either want this studied properly, or you don't. Which is it?
A: No response

Eight questions - two responses. By my reckoning, that's 25% answered... not 100%. However, I'd be glad to be shown wrong if you can point me to where the other answers are.



I now accept, given Tom has pointed out the discharge reason indicates he was a "minor", that it was not legal. As for what happened when he was 14... it appears likely he joined the NG underage, was found out and discharged. After a period of time, he joined the USAR underage and deliberately withheld information about previous enlistment in the NG because he knew that info would tip them off to his real age (through previous serial #). This explains why he was issued a different serial # on this occasion. If Tosh had come clean on this at the outset, no "nitpicking" about it would have been required.



That was one of the only two questions he answered. It was not brought up again.



It's not directly relevant to what happened later, and I had already acknowledged as much. It does go to the question of reliability.



Not that I would word it quite the same way... but agree with the general thrust of it. In fact, I have provided very specific examples in this forum.

He said he could handle the hard questions... I didn't think that meant getting into a snit about them.

If you, Tosh or anyone else believes I am hindering his ability to get his story out, I'd be happy to call a moratorium on any further comments or questions until he's completed posting the rest of his information.

I will then make any comments, ask any questions I think are warranted. He can answer them, ignore them, or complain about them. Entirely his choice. I really would like to believe some positive leads can be generated.

John: I am trying to hang in there, but its difficult at times. I am updating my BIO for you and should have it ready in a few days... Its a finding time thing with me at the moment. But I will do it because I told you I would...,

; .; ; .; ; .; ; .; ; .; ; .; ; .; ; .; ;Here is a complete (but probably not chronological) list of the questions I've put, with answers received: (1) Q: Is it now accepted that Tosh's enlistment into the National Guard was legal?
A: No response [current comment. Question was based on incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]

ANSWER Not at 14..... I was on 4 years Federal Probation... The document provided which supports this is sanitized... but there are others in file as probation reports of the time which are not sanitized. If I am to post ever document to prove to you every matter I say then we will be here for years.....If it goes to a court or investigated by proper authorities then those none sanitized documents will be provided.... and too I will share my research to some extant... but not all, nor will reveal all my sources to you or anyone at this time. Point being: I was 14 years of age.., on federal probation.., and went into the National Guard and then into the Regular Army... then back into the Army reserve at Dallas Love Field.

I did not lie about my age my birth date is on my discharge papers as well as where I worked. It was NOT LEGAL to be in the National Guard at 14.., let alone be on Federal probation for ITSA. Did anyone do any kind of "background check" on me before enlistment. A Kid walks into the army National Guard and says I'm 18 or 17 and I want to join? And they say OK here is your Tank.

Some months later the kid says Ok I think I will join the Regular Army and he goes and says I was in the National Guard and want to join. They say OK. Here is your rifle and your MOS of 006 basic trainee. The birth date is on the discharge and enlistment..., but they too, did not do a background check.... However after a few months and a promotion as Cpl he is Honorable discharge from the Regular army for being a minor and is sent back (not to the National Guard, but the Army Reserve and assigned a MOS of 1795 a Tank Crewman.. The boy is only 16 and a CPL in the Army reserve. Nothing strange about any of that... happened everyday...
And too I was still on Federal Probation until I was 18. 2. Q: If not, why not? A: No response

Why not What? [current comment. Those two questions were based on an incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal] Q: The separation form indicates zero overseas service. Was this an innocent error, or deliberate cover-up? A: No response
There were about seventy of us young lads all under age and had been in trouble with the law and were now in the army I was in training with a few of these boys. I did not do the paperwork or ‘Sheep Dip" the 71 boys that were about my age. Cover up by who? Q: How does the separation form help support the VA statement concerning being Korean Vet, given that in reality it contradicts it? A: No response

I Have a full VA disability because of injuries received while in military service; gun shot wound and in WBAH at Ft Bliss Texas where I was taken. I was in 14 days in traction after a two week stay in Korea as a US Army member. Got shot in the butt and was taken back to the states. After some years that got me full VA because started having bad trouble with my back, legs and hip.., because at the time of the gun shot I was also ran over my a jeep. Of course the VA verified all this before benefits were awarded.

Again I did not do the paper work or the "Sheep-Dipping" and cover up of a young boy of 17 or so. Q: The MPs in the DMZ were UN. You were attached to the UN? A: No response

United States Army. Go read a book on who were there and why. Us Military served in Korea long after the conflict was over... It was not a WAR.
Q: Do you believe you were targeted for this [Special Ops as a youth] because of your police record?

This was long before the term "Special OPS" term was used. This was a program similar to the "Dirty Doz" used in WWII and ran by old OSS officers who had came back from the war Europe as well as the Pacific.
A: I had a choice go into the army or go to Jev until 18 then jail. I was told this by the FBI and the Judge on the case. anyway and they approved my enlistment.

Referenced Court Sealed Documents and Sanitized Federal Documents as to this event. Q: Was parental consent requested and granted?
A: They (the court close door chambers) told my mother and father it would be best for me, because if I kept going the way I was I would be in prison by the time I was 20. However, they did not sign any papers. I joined anyway with court approval as well as the probation department of the US Government. They (the court, the FBI, and the Army) new I was in the Texas National Guard as a tank driver, Sherman. My parents did not know I went into the regular army until I came home on leave from Ft Bliss. They just thought I ran away again and the law would bring me back. I was accepted into the regular army and they (the army) knew of my probation and age. In fact my real age and birth date is on my discharge papers which have been posted... as well as where I worked as a aircraft mech at Southwest Airmotive (they got me that job at Southwest.... I agreed to be hon discharged and sent back to Dallas until I turned 18 of which I did. and I went back to work at Southwest (note: I was ran over by a jeep at Ft Bliss in 1954 and was at Wm Beaumont Army Hospital for 14 days.) Q: You either want this studied properly, or you don't. Which is it? A: No response

This has been studied and investigated properly by a Varity of Federal officials and private investigators

Eight questions - two responses. By my reckoning, that's 25% answered... not 100%. However, I'd be glad to be shown wrong if you can point me to where the other answers are.

What's your game and what are you trying to say? You have indicated that I run away from the Hard question... and you tone is "No Respond" to your hard questions as if I am a "Fabricator, perhaps even a liar.

I posted a statement in an attempt to help researchers trace a path to were I am to day and why..., and tried to back it up with just a FEW of the many documents I now have which now support my military and CIA associations...... Your tone and style I feel is to get others to doubt anything I have to say... I have the proof of what I say and have said over the years... Because you are a Johnny come lately" is not my fault.

However, I do commend you in your effort to untangle this and the truth in your quest toward the JFK matter. What you think of me is of no importance. I am trying to help, but its difficult.

Now you run along... there is nothing to see here.... If you took your "Blinders"off and walk with an open mind you might learn something..... How can you get to the truth when you will not even read what is available on this subject.... are you really being Object as a researcher?

Have you missed the real point of this thread? Have you tried to disprove an event that happened? Are you saying that I was not in the National Guard at 14, went into the regular army discharged and back into the Army Reserve as a CPL with a MOS of 1795 Tank Crewman and who has 100% VA disability today because of injuries received while service connected? What's your game... to cause me hours of typing to defend myself and stop me and others from working on this COLD CASE? What is your motive?

Again get real..., and get with the program... If I can help you I will... But if you want to lead me down NEVER-NEVER LAND....and tell me Black is White and White is Black... then I will not Respond to any of your slanted question regardless of your motives... And I mean this in the nicest possible way.

Nice to hear from you again.

Your input has always been interesting, informative, and, nearly always, met with much resistance.

Considering the type of work you've done it doesn't surprise me at all that your records might
contain a few inconsistencies.

You have your hands tied, i think. If you reveal information which is still "classified" you would
certainly be prosecuted and spend the rest of your life in prison.

I think the fact that you still try to guide people to where they may find some answers is admirable.

Thanks for coming back.

Perhaps one should pick a few more "Nits"!

1. The "National Defense" Service Medal is awarded to all members of the NG/USAR/USA/RA, immediately upon enlistment.

2. After one has served for two years in any component, and has not been a "bad boy"/aka received any judicial (Courts Martial) and/or non-judicial punishment (Article 15), one is automatically awarded the "Good Conduct" Medal.

3. For ANY service in the Korean Theater, to include serving on a ship within the Terrirorial Waters, one receives the "Armed Forces Expeditionary Force" Medal (automatically awarded, just as are the National Defense Medal, the Good Conduct Medal, the Vietnam Service and Vietnam Campaign Medals)

4. Full record of RECORDED DAYS OF SERVICE in all components of the Armed Forces (Army in this case) is an ESSENTIAL ELEMENT OF INFORMATION, as it represents one's pay status* as well as ultimate represents that information necessary in order to compute time counted in achieving the 20-years of service required for normal retirement benefits.

*Example: Most of those who received their Commission to 2nd Lt. with me had less than two years of actual service. Thus, their base pay was approximately $250.00 per month.

Due to prior service in the MS National Guard, as well as RA-Enlisted active duty service, I went to "Over-2" years of credited service immediately after having been commissioned, and thusly, my base pay was approximately $500.00 per month.

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http://www.tpub.com/content/administration...s/14214_213.htm

BASIC PAY The pay of service members is prescribed by law. Members are entitled to receive pay according to their paygrades and years of service if they are on active duty in a pay status and not otherwise prohibited by law from receiving such pay. Basic pay is the primary means of compensating members of the uniformed services. Except for certain periods of unauthorized absence, excess leave, and confinement after an enlistment has expired, every active duty member is entitled to basic pay on a regular basis. The rate of basic pay is determined by a member’s paygrade and length of service.


Personnel having the same paygrade and time in service normally make more money than personnel in a lower paygrade and with less time in service. So you can see how paygrade and length of service are factors consider in determining how much a person gets paid

Emphasis added!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Correct calculation of actual credited days served in any component of the armed forces is absolutly essential for retirement computation purposes as well as credit for pay purposes.


Some of us, who actually have "Credited Time" for service in the "Inactive/aka" National Guard, as well as credited time for "Active/aka RA-enlisted", actually know how to read a DD214, and thusly would not normally be dumb enough to post one which directly contradicts what one is attempting to sell.

I think those of us on 'this side' of the Alice-in-Wonderland' World of covert / black ops et al. can hardly imagine the constraints. An incomplete list would include:

- Feeling it not in the interest of one's best interests nor 'health' to speak to classified materials not out in the public to which one might know or have been involved in.

- Not wanting to 'out' someone who is a friend who was along with one on something one is speaking out about, but who [the friend] doesn't want to be known as having participated in [i.e. they don't want to speak out about it].

- 'Clean-up squads' or persons so adverse to the information being released, or potentially / possibly released, as to consitute a thread or danger - real or imagined.

- 'Places' where one could go with information where one would become possibly liable for legal prosecution for real actions or where there is false paperwork that set one-up as falsely having been involved - when was not [a common way to control low to medium level operatives].

-inability to get access to documents despite FOIA (and other means) or documents being overly redacted.

- and others...and all these are not specific to Plumlee - these would apply to many.

- This is what I was speaking to to Greg about - that along with some [yes, not all] slightly (or more than slightly) altered documents for some covert operatives made before, during, after the events they are dated for / addressing - it is not a WYSIWYG world.....sadly for the researchers and even for any covert operatives trying to come 'clean', in part or in full. Some of the smoke and mirrors with documents was built into the system....witness [as just one example] Tosh 'officially' being a 'prisoner' at a time he was actively a covert operative and the 'prisoner' status was their cover. That can be turned against him - and was constructed to be so....for then and now. Etc.

I happen to believe the money-in-the-locker was real and did involve Roselli, but certain powers-that-be had reason to hide that, and claimed the locker contained only a pair of binoculars. Alice in Wonderland on Owsley Acid wouldn't come close to all this. Read about Nigel. Read about Hemming. Read about Beckham, and so many others. The ultimate seems to be Oswald[s]. It is not an easy job to discern the truth...and it was so constructed. We've made great progress. Let's all work to make more. The fog is clearing the further we get. One needs a great skepticism of statments made, as well [sadly] of some minority of the documentation - and certainly of all the documents withheld! The Cheshire Cat is watching over us all.

I think those of us on 'this side' of the Alice-in-Wonderland' World of covert / black ops et al. can hardly imagine the constraints. An incomplete list would include:




In that regards," "those of us on "this side'", never cease to be amazed at the absolutly absurd and stupid theories and concepts which some of those on "your side" have generated by their fertile* imaginations.

Fertile: As if thoroughly mixed with lots of BS!


One nice aspect of having actually shovelled real BS is that one easily and instantly recognizes fake BS when someone attempts to pawn it off on them.


Fake BS = Fake fertilization!---------------& one's tomatoes will not grow!

Sir I respect your tours of duty (if any) and your military lineage. And I respect your opinions of me. If it makes you feel better to slam me and infer I am a liar and have never done or been what I say..., then that is O.K. too. I am not here to prove anything to you. However, for you to talk about medals, law, and the likes and apply all that to establish your self serving fact to cover your false observations about something you know nothing about is the mark of a very stupid man.


I could question your motives and I too could get into a pisxxing match with you on various matters... but you would not comprehend and would keep rattling about matters you know nothing about...... I will not justified my existence to you are anybody... so you keep on turning and churning and calling "white black" and "black white" the likes.... It makes no difference to me.

Sir I don't give a damn who you are or what you think you know about me, or What you think you are in the world of life..... I do not care what you post and I care less about the information feed to you by those who hide behind their BS and get people like you to wash their dirty linen to cover their tracks. I do know them and too, I know their motives..... Your nose is so brown I can see it from here. I know your type; a hanger on from another planet I believe.

If you have something to say to me then say it straight out in one complete sentence. You do not have to back it up.., just say it..... I respect your views, but being the type person you are, I do not expect you to respect me or my life. So be it.

You go on and suck up this space and others time with your views and expertise and self serving manner. That is ok with me. But if you have to do it... do it professional. Better yet I will say it for you...

I'm full of Crap.. (Oh you said that) I have never done the things I have said and proven... OH Yes, You Said That. I did not prove anything its all lies and fabrications in your view. Right? OH you said that.... You have established your point.

Now would you care to contribute constructively to the research to this Forum in its search for the truth of the JFK assassination?.. Would you care to record your views and put them out their for others to review and question you on?. Do you have an opinion about this case and can you contribute something factual and constructive one way or the other.... or are you just the type that does not have an opinion... You have an opinion about me and go to pains to express it.... Can you go through that same 'pain" and time, to put your thought down for the members of this forum to evaluate? I think not...its easier to slam me and others and create a false illusion of smoke and mirrors. I have wasted enough time with the likes of you.... I have to move on... you have shown me nothing When it comes to OPS your less than nothing... and so is your friend...

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx

THE EDUCATION FORUM


Learning and understanding of military records and what they actually represent, is, not unlike virtually any other aspect of EDUCATION.

Just perhaps, there are those here who have learned a thing or two!

All of life can be a "learning" process, provided one actually opens their mind.


http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol19_0352a.htm


FORM DD373 (DD = Department of Defense, utilized by all brances of the armed services)

QUOTE(William Plumlee @ Jan 22 2008, 07:06 PM)

QUOTE(Thomas H. Purvis @ Jan 22 2008, 08:35 AM)

QUOTE(Greg Parker @ Jan 22 2008, 12:47 PM)

QUOTE

He also answered Greg Parker's many questions.

Dawn,

Here is a complete (but probably not chronological) list of the questions I've put, with answers received:

Q: Is it now accepted that Tosh's enlistment into the National Guard was legal?
A: No response
[current comment. Question was based on incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]

Q: If not, why not?
A: No response

[current comment. Those two questions were based on an incorrect premise, as it now appears it was not legal]

Q: The separation form indicates zero overseas service. Was this an innocent error, or deliberate cover-up?
A: No response

Q: How does the separation form help support the VA statement concerning being Korean Vet, given that in reality it contradicts it?
A: No response

Q: The MPs in the DMZ were UN. You were attached to the UN?
A: No response

Q: Do you believe you were targeted for this [Special Ops as a youth] because of your police record?
A: I had a choice go into the army or go to Jev until 18 then jail. I was told this by the FBI and the Judge on the case. anyway and they approved my enlistment.

Q: Was parental consent