Does anyone know anything about this person?

On 11/23 or 11/24/63 the Chicago Office of the Secret Service received a call from someone asking if the Chicago Office had any information on a John Heard.
According to Mary Ferrell's Chronologies, the office had cards on approximately 100 Heards and arrested a John Heard.

In his deposition before the HSCA, July 26, 1978, Jim Braden was asked if he had been in Chicago in October or November, 1963 and whether he knew a Thomas Mosley and if he knew a John Heard.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=41

I know in the past, people have said that Heard was really John Hurt, the person LHO was trying to call in North Carolina, but I'm not so sure.

Steve Thomas

Steve

If my memory serves me correctly, the call was for a John Heard or a "phonetic" variation on that name. The use of the word "phonetic" is what has led people to believe that it may have been "phonetically" the name "John Hurt" that was uncovered during the HSCA.

Your dates are interesting, if correct, because the Oswald call to John Hurt did not occur until the late evening of, I believe, the 24th. If a call went out to any "Chicago Office" on the 23rd or early on the 24th for information about a John Heard it would be difficult to associate that name with the "Hurt" that Oswald attempted to contact late on the 24th.

Jim Root

Jim,



A couple of thoughts:

The call to Hurt in North Carolina was placed on the 23rd. By the evening of the 24th, Oswald was dead.

In April, 1970 a Sherman Skolnick sued the National Archives for release of records relating to the alleged assassination plot in Chicago on November 2, 1963. The particulars of this suit can be found in the FBI JFK Assassination file, Section 172 beginning on about page 182.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=182

On page 185 of Section 172, it says, "On the night of November 23, 1963, one of the Secret Service Agents in Chicago received a call at home from a Secret Service Agent in Dallas who wanted "instant information" on the following: a) Klein's Sporting Goods Company... and the Oswald rifle, and whether Oswald received money from Chicago as alleged in a Chicago newspaper.

(My own thoughts is that the Dallas Secret Service Agent was Inspector Kelly)

On page 186 it says that on the 24th, Maurice Matineau "called one of his secret service agents and asked him if he had ever heard of a John Heard, phonetically pronounced. Martineau asked the agent to "pull" all cards marked "Heard". There were approximately 100 such "Heards." It is believed that the Secret Service arrested a John Heard at that time; said name phonetically pronounced."

On page 193 of this Section 172, there is a copy of the John Hurt Dallas jail call card.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=193

If the call from Dallas to Chicago was made as a result of LHO's call to North Carolina, the Secret Service already knew that the man LHO called was spelled Hurt.

If LHO called North Carolina, why was Dallas asking Chicago for information?

Was Chicago the repository for Secret Service records? Why would Chicago have 100 records of Heards? That's a lot for one town, even one the size of Chicago.

Was, in fact, a John Heard arrested in Chicago?

Why was Jim Braden asked if he knew a Thomas Mosley and a John Heard in back to back questions immediately after being asked if he was in Chicago in October or November of 1963?

Steve Thomas

Steve

Sorry about my misstatement of dates, I stand corrected.

Jim Root

Steve

Found this information that Ron Ecker has previously provided to me:

Document # 180-10070-10273 Is a 7 page document dated 1/19/78. It is an interview of Secret Service Agent Abraham Bolden by HSCA staffer Jim Kelly and Harold Rese.

The HSCA staffers thought Bolden could provide details on a possible conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy in Chicago on November 2, 1963. . . .

Bolden recalls Tom Mosely's name mentioned in the office around that period (Nov 1963). He said when Agent Tom Kelly arrived in Chicago from Dallas on or about 11/26/63, he mentioned a John Heard or Hurt. They searched the office card files for a similar sounding name.

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_...ue/arrb_12.html

Bolden was still curious about John Heard or Hurt as late as 1992. (Was Bolden even aware of the “Raleigh call”?) This is from Bernice Moore’s post in the recent Bolden thread, quoting Palamara’s book:

"Abraham Bolden also stated the following in his letter to Ohio Congressman Louis Stokes, former Chairman of the HSCA..." who is John Heard ? If the name John Heard (Hurt) has not been documented in the files of the Warren Commission then the files of the United States Congress are far from complete regarding the assassination of the President. Less than 24 hrs after the assassination of the President and while Lee Harvey Oswald was still in custody prior to his own assassination by Jack Ruby, all Secret Service offices across the nation were instructed to determine the whereabouts of a John Heard and any name phonetically sounding like Heard whose name was in the Secret Service files. At a time when the nation's attention was focused upon the name Lee Oswald ,the Secret Service was investigating John Heard all across the nation."...

( 1/26/92 Letter to Congressman Stokes provided to the author .This information was provided by Bolden ,regarding John Heard to the HSCA during the agents interview 1/9/78.)"

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6064

Jim,



Thank you. That was very helpful.

I was particularly interested in this passage:

17: Agent Louis B.Sims: told the HSCA..."...he could not remember dates but that he recalls it could have been any time up to a year prior to the assassination, he was assigned to conduct a surveillance on a subject that was either Puerto Rican or Cuban .He does not remember any specific details other than it involved gun running and it appeared to be a very sensitive investigation. He stated the names Echevarria and Manual Rodriquez were familiar but he couldn't place them..(HSCA 5/22/78 RIF # 180-10093-100221.)
(Emphasis added)..

Steve Thomas

Thanks, Steve and Jim. It's threads like this one that made we want to join this forum in the first place.

Years after his very suspect prison term for allegedly being implicated in a counterfeiting scheme,
Abraham Bolden would write Louis Stokes stating, “.......who is John Heard? If the name John Heard [Hurd] has not been documented in the files of the Warren Commission, then the files of the United States Congress are far from complete regarding the assassination of the President. Less than 24 hours after the assassination of the President, and while Lee Harvey Oswald was still in custody prior to his own assassination by Jack Ruby, all Secret Service offices across the nation were instructed to determine the whereabouts of a John Heard and any name phonetically sounding like Heard whose name was in the Secret Service Files. At a time when the nation’s attention was focused on the name Lee Oswald, the Secret Service were investigating John Heard all across the nation.......”
From Survivor’s Guilt Vincent M. Palamara Chapter 17 page 15-16.
It is also significant that both Bolden and Nagell acknowledged the other years later regarding being placed
in a cell next to each other.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2
Additionally, NARA has three JFK Assassination documents that would seem to be pertinent to the above.

1.......180-10109-10264 ABRAHAM BOLDEN CHICAGO WASHINGTON 00/00/0000
2.......180-10075-10028 DOD, FILES; HEARD, JOHN [No Title] MILLER, JUDY, DOD [No To] 03/21/1978
3.......179-30001-10409 SUBJECTS : REVIEW OF RECORDS RE ATF (TREASURY)

Furthermore, in the following document at maryferrell.org Blakey request a namecheck re 5 topics...
# 3 would seem to fit in on this thread.....
LETTER TO CARPENTIER FROM BLAKEY :IN CONNECTION WITH ITS INVESTIGATION/REQUEST FOR FILES ON 5 NAMES..They were
1. NESTOR CASTELLANOS
2. CARL MATHER
3. JOHN DAVID HURT
4. COLLINS RADIO
5. MINUTEMEN ORGANIZATION

The information on Hurt is as follows
JOHN DAVID HURT
DATE OF BIRTH: 05/12/09 PLACE OF BIRTH: River Bend, Colorado Social Security No. 107-05-5407
Served with US Army Counterintelligence Corps in Europe and Japan
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2

Yesterday, I had the first opportunity to peruse Abraham Bolden's book, he mentions this as well.......
Robert

Although at this time declassified files on John Hurt are not voluminous here is another one that has not been showcased on the Forum.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1
And this is the guy who Oswald attempted to call while he was in jail?
The question mark is not there to take exception to the premise, but to show how illogical the whole issue of mental cases becomes after an incredible amount of repetition.
After a few years of perusing various documents pertaining to assassination related persons, an observation that should be pointed out that is applicable across the board, as well as in regards to the URL on John Hurt listed above.
How many persons in the legacy of the assassination have a history of mental problems?
The number if one set out to document it, would stupify you.
Leading one to the conclusion that one of the conditions of belonging to the conspiracy club was to have a history of mental problems, for those who believe Lee Harvey Oswald killed President Kennedy, at first glance seems like a godsend, as in "the only people who allege a conspiracy are nut cases," but where it gets dicey is when the list of nut cases runs into dozens of people.......Leaving one to swallow a surreal logic that yes Oswald killed Kennedy and practically everyone that submitted
information either casting doubt on that conclusion was a mental case. The more crazy people in the boat, the more implausible the logic becomes. In the 1960's fear of getting to close to the truth made people fear for their lives, then the HSCA came alone and practically made fun of "the very idea" of mysterious deaths. Someone once uttered "who are you going to believe me or your own eyes." It seems appropriate regarding scores of people who died before they were going to testify.

Consider the case of the religous cult types that came out of the woodwork during the Garrison Case involving Clay Shaw.
While a great deal of attention focused on the death of David Ferrie, another religious figure the Rev. Carl Stanley also died in the same time frame, according to Peter Lavenda.
Yet there are at least five documents pertaining to Stanley that as of yesterday July 29, 2009 are still postponed in full.
Go to NARA and see for yourself.

"How many persons in the legacy of the assassination have a history of mental problems?
The number if one set out to document it, would stupify you.
Leading one to the conclusion that one of the conditions of belonging to the conspiracy club was to have a history of mental problems, for those who believe Lee Harvey Oswald killed President Kennedy, at first glance seems like a godsend, as in "the only people who allege a conspiracy are nut cases," but where it gets dicey is when the list of nut cases runs into dozens of people.......Leaving one to swallow a surreal logic that yes Oswald killed Kennedy and practically everyone that submitted
information either casting doubt on that conclusion was a mental case. "

The flip side being, How many people thought to be in the conspiracy (e. g. Ferrie, William Harvey) or at its fringes (Thornley) were mentally ill or severely neurotic?

One thought occurs re the USPO as the oldest Intelligence gathering agency in the US of A.

Postal Inspector, witness, FBI informant, close to the agencies and the DPD heads, working under the Washington regime, a couple of people away from Helms and Dulles in the illegal mail opening campaigns that likely tracked Oswald, Harry D. Holmes worked closely with the SS on these issues and the Kansas city Centre for mail had been shifted to Chicago. ie a repository of info gathering.

A note on POSTPONED IN FULL... as someone who has visited the archives in search of documents on many occasions, it is quite common to find documents that are "POSTPONED IN FULL" to be available in part or in their entirety. The NARA database is not updated often and I don't think it has been updated for some time.

The LaFontaines in Oswald Talked implicate Thomas Moseley in the JFK hit, who was a member of The Minutemen, sponsored by the original Minuteman, Wickliffe Draper, who had several relatives fighting as Minuetmen on the Lexington Battle Green when the "first shots heard round the world were fired". Draper's cronies also fired the "most recent shots heard round the world" on 11/22/1963 as well. Moseley and Homer Echeverria, Jr. (30th of November Movement was implicated by Roy Hargraves in the Miami and Dallas JFK plots and he fingered Eugene Brading at Dallas) were both involved with the Chicago Plot to Assassinate JFK according to Abraham Bolden or FBI records. And as for John Hurt or John Heard or John Hurd and The Raleigh Phone Call I have some interesting info on that score as well. I called the switchboard of a Raleigh based law firm in the 1990's which had been referred to me by Roy Hargraves (indirectly) and asked to speak with "John Hurt" as I pronounced it. The operator said: "Oh, gosh Mr. Hurd (or Mr. Hurt or Mr. Heard) no longer works here and I think he died a few years ago. What is the reason for your call? Can someone else help you?" When I asked if he was an attorney or a private investigator or something else, I was asked why I wanted to know and exactly who I was. I declined to tell her and she declined to continue the conversation any further. Was it Jim Braden or Eugene Hale Brading who was detained in Dallas on 11/22/1963 coming out of the Dal-Tex building? Wasn't this just one person using a pseudonym in fact, or am I thinking of someone else? I will disclose the name of the law firm in my book and the reason for focusing on that firm which is now nearing completion. Garrison went after Edgar Eugene Bradley but the then Governor of California, Ronald Reagan, refused to extradite him to Louisiana to face charges. The plot thickens. Echevarria even bragged that "we are going to take care of Kennedy soon." More later.

But if your street level suspects include Moseley, Echevarria, Brading and/or Braden then you are RIGHT on the money.

NESTOR CASTELLANOS, a Bay of Pigs veteran, also made predictions, like HOMER ECHEVARRIA about JFK's pending death as I recall. Collins Radio was bought out by Rockwell Standard
just like Wickliffe Draper's Draper Company when it was about to go under in 1967 as a payback for Draper's fine work in snuffing out JFK and advancing money to the perps. And Thomas Moseley was a Minuteman, the org started by Wickliffe Draper in honor of his forebears. A John Heard or John Hurt worked for a Raleigh Law Firm associated with Senator Jesse Helms later on in his career. Looks like Blakey was on to something there but dropped the ball. Hurt was Army Intel like Willoughby and MacArthur and worked with them in Japan. Getting real close hear. Don't drop the ball. Gee, the
number of retired or resigned Army Intel types involved with snuffing JFK is just growing astronomically.

You are getting warmer... warmer... warmer.

I have long believed that most of the leadership of the American Security Council were certified anti-Communist paranoids and borderline schizophrenics. Independent biographers implicated
ASC types like: Robert Morris, Charles Willoughby, James Angleton, etc. and GLK Smith, Philip J. Corso and Wm Potter Gale as total anti-social paranoid psychopaths bent on destruction, revenge,
retaliation, mayhem, mischief, misdeeds, high crimes and misdemeanors. And people like Edwin Walker and Anastase Vonsiatsky both went to the Springfield Federal Pen for the criminal

Index for FBI HSCA Subject: John Heard aka Hurt, Main File 63-5507
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...do?docId=136888

Robert, or Jim Root:

Was anything else learned after the Dec., 2005 post in this thread?:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=3391&st=15

How does this author know that "the other" John Hurt was "an auto mechanic"? I found nothing at http://groverproctor.us/jfk that indicates an
occupation.

I've never Heard of such a thing.

[quote name='Tom Scully' date='Aug 1 2009, 09:56 PM' post='170598']
Robert, or Jim Root:

Was anything else learned after the Dec., 2005 post in this thread?

Tom

I have been following a trail of research for over a decade. Each new piece of information leads to a new search....It's interesting, for every question answered another becomes apparent.

As most reasearchers I stumbled upon the Releigh Call very early in my study of the assassination of JFK. Where I differ perhaps is that my research was originally centered on the life of Maj. Gen. Edwin Anderson Walker. Without going into a long story that researh led me to a place in about 1934 when the paths of Walker and John B. Hurt (later of the NSA) crossed.

This led, of course, to new questions and a search for information on this particular John Hurt.

Fast forward many years and we find the release of documents detailing the NSA background investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald and the two men involved for the NSA, Rowlett and Gardner, were both associates of the same John B. Hurt as was Walker.....Through into the mix that Warren Commissioner John J. McCloy was, during WWII, recieving direct communication from this same John B. Hurt and we start to have a series of coincidences that generate there own questions.

Somewhere along the way, with the help of James Richards, I became aware of the name Wilho Tikander and a WWII intelligence operation known as Stella Polaris....which led to the Venona Project that involved Rowlett and Gardner. It is the research within this context that my limited time has currently centered upon. It has led me to an interesting WWII intellegence organization know as "The Pond" or SI. Depending upon whom you talk to it was headed by one or another person (John "Frenchy" Grombach or Whitney Shepardson). It seems that a member of this WWII organization was Richard Helms, that we find is monitoring the movements of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to the assasination of JFK.

Because of this information and a great deal more that I had gathered I speculated upon whom the Raleigh Call may have actually been made to.

But First:

When I was a Freshman in college I developed a way to call my HS sweetheart back home for little or no money. I would first call her home via the operator making a person to person collect phone call. She would not accept the charges but would go to a local payphone at the end of her block and call a pay phone that was near my dorm. After paying for the first three minutes we would talk for long periods of time........not sure if she ever paid for the additional time beyound the three minutes necessary to put the call through.

Oswald made several "person to person collect" phone calls while in custody...primarily in an attempt to contact Johnathn Abt, the attorney he wished to represent him. The operator made repeated attemts to several numbers in Oswald's attempts to contact this man. In the case of the Raleigh Call it seems that Oswald made no attempt to retreive additional numbers when his collect call (just as my college call) was not accepted. It seems that the operator had anticipated, as was the case in Oswald's attempt to contact Abt, that additional numbers might be requested. I believe that it is logical to assume that when Oswald did not continue his quest to contact Hurt the operator then tossed the additional numbers (numbers that had no meaning except to provide us with the name John Hurt) in the trash.

It seems apparent that the FBI did send out a background search for John Hurt/Heard's without result and we are left with this mystery.

Back to my speculation:

I did speculate upon who may have been the recipiant of Oswald's call and via this speculation found a cache of material that led me to information that proves that in June of 1959 Helms was involved in the collection of information that led Wilho Tikander to speculate that there was an off record intelligence operation that was going to involve Helsinki Finland in the near future. When this speculation is made there is communication within this cache that suggests that Tikander be kept out of the loop. Whitney Shepardson, the main conduit to Helms in the collection of this information was a very close associate of John J. McCloy and of Demitri De Mohrenschildt, brother of George. A few months later, Oswald would enter the Soviet Union via Helsinki. On May 1, 1960 a U-2 spy plane would fall from the sky and the Paris Summit would fail........the Paris Summit was supposed to result in the signing of a Limited Nuclear Test Ban Treaty....it was not signed. John J. McCloy felt that the signing of that particular treaty would have jepordized the security of the United States......

I speculate several things:

John J. McCloy used Lee Harvey Oswald to help him scuttle the Paris Summit

Demitri De Morhrenschildt could have his brother George monitor the movements of Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas until shortly after the assassiantion attempt on the life of Gen. Walker.

John J. McCloy would be very familiar with the psycho file of Lee Harvey Oswald and would understand that if LHO had attempted to kill Walker he would be willing to kill the President if given the opportunity.

John J. McCloy was kept informed of the whereabout of Lee Harvey Oswald via Richard Helms receipt of the monitoring of Oswald's movements

John J. McCloy became aware of exactly where Oswald was working prior to the designation of the motorcade route.

John J. McCloy knew that if Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to make a call to a person, via a cutout, named John Hurt that the wheels of the intellegence community would ralley to eleminate Lee Harvey Oswald
without anyone having to arramge it prior to the assassination of JFK.

John J. McCloy knew that could be placed upon the Warren Commission and be in a position to conceal three vital pieces of information from the public:
A: Oswalds journey from London to Helsinki
B: FBI Agent hosty's third note which provided information about exactly where Lee Harvey Oswald was working
C: Information about Lee Harvey Oswald's attempt to call John Hurt.

It has been an interesting journey of research,

Jim Root