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Cigdem Göle
One of Japan's remarkable manga artists and writers, Keiji Nakasawa was standing behind the wall in his school's garden when the Atomic Bomb was dropped onto Hiroshima on 6 August 1945. It was the wall that saved his life that day. He was only six years old. He lost all members of his family except for his mother and an infant sister, who also died a few weeks after the bombing.

Nakasawa's commonly known manga series "Barefoot Gen" deals with the life in Hiroshima before the bombing ,the aftermath and the suffering that follows.
In 1961, after moving to Tokyo with his mother, he began his first drawings. When he lost his mother in 1966, due to the terrible effects of the atomic bomb, he decided to create a manga series related to his memories of the bombing.

In the Foreword of the first episode of Barefoot Gen, Nakasawa writes, "When I went to the crematorium to gather the ashes of my mother, I was shocked to see there were no bone particles left from her body. The radioactive residue of the bomb had destroyed even the smallest bit of bone in her body. The bomb had taken away everything from me, including my mother's bones. I was so full of anger that I swore I would never forgive the Japanese who started the war and the Americans who dropped the bomb."
In Barefoot Gen, the reader sees the life in Hiroshima before and after the bombing through the eyes of Nakasawa's alter ego, Gen. Nakasawa's depiction of the destroying effects of war upon people is amazing. He questions the sides (Japan & the USA) who caused the sufferings of the war they are in as well as the hypocrisy of the people in his hometown.

What is told by Nakasawa in Barefoot Gen causes the reader to wander away from the dreamy atmosphere of a comic strip and forces them to remind themselves that the story is real, which results in "a pain in the stomach" feeling.

An interview with Nakasawa
http://www.tcj.com/256/i_nakazawa.html
Cigdem Göle
Some drawings from Nakasawa's Barefoot Gen.



Cigdem Göle
There are many characteristics that make Manga very distinctive. The largest thing that Manga art is known for is its characters. Manga characters almost always have large eyes, small mouths, and they also usually have abnormal hair color. These things give their characters a very western look to them. Manga like Akira, however, has gone against this grain.

Manga characters usually show over exaggerated emotions. When a character cries, it usually pours out in buckets, when they laugh, their face seems engulfed by the size of their mouths and their eyes become slits. An angry character will have rosy cheeks and steam rolling from around their body. This use of emotion would most likely be categorized as cartoonish.


http://comicbooks.about.com/od/manga/ss/manga101_3.htm
Daniel Wayne Dunn
Cigdem,

I want to thank you very much for posting this. I never knew who Nakazawa was until reading your thread and links here. (Same goes for Miyazaki -- loved what I saw of "Howl's Moving Castle") After doing some searching around I found some other links on Nakazawa, Barefoot Gen and related subjects. The drawing from Barefoot Gen in the first link is really powerful.....


Nakazawa, aftermath of atomic bomb blast from Barefoot Gen:

http://titan.iwu.edu/~rwilson/people.html



a couple of nice brief reviews with some links and pictures:

http://www.anime.com/Barefoot_Gen/

http://www.artbomb.net/detail.jsp?idx=1&tid=399


recent commentary by Denny O'Neil:

http://www.comicmix.com/news/2008/06/17/ba...-dennis-o-neil/


website of "Art For A Change," page featuring artwork by atom bomb survivors (Hibakusha) and related links:

http://www.art-for-a-change.com/Atomic/atomic.htm


Again, thank you very much for introducing this subject in the forum. It's much appreciated.

Sincerely,
Dan
Cigdem Göle
Dan,

You're welcome.
I'm glad you liked Nakasawa's art.
Thank you for the links, the first one is very powerful indeed.
John Dolva
Thank you C for putting up this interesting topic. It's a persistent peripheral, and sometimes focussed, interest of mine, cinema. I used to devour Akira Kurosawa, Bergman, Bellini et.c.. Today much of the greatest cinematography in many genres have a strong oriental influence, particularly Japanese.
One thing that bothers me about Manga ( and also much ghetto stuff from various rapper derivatives is the objectification of woman) The women in Manga are so often cute and schoolgirlish. The rapper of a particular genre depends on booby butty bimboes 'with all the right moves'.
Cigdem Göle
QUOTE (John Dolva @ Jan 1 2009, 06:10 AM) *
One thing that bothers me about Manga ( and also much ghetto stuff from various rapper derivatives is the objectification of woman) The women in Manga are so often cute and schoolgirlish. The rapper of a particular genre depends on booby butty bimboes 'with all the right moves'.



That's right. The main character in manga is often Bishoujo (beautiful young girl) portrayed as
a good hearted, innocent schoolgirl with a uniform whose skirt occasionally fly about. Although
there have been an increase in the number of female manga authors, the sexist attitude changed
very little. The reason for this lies in the solid structure of the manga industry and the group of
readers it has been aiming at.

The gender roles depicted in manga reflect the traditional Japanese society and culture.The Mother or The Older
Sister in manga is the adult/mature version of Bishoujo, a maternal figure with a pure heart that the main character
asks for advice when she is in trouble. One difference of Bishoujo and modern Japanese girl is that the manga
character is more outspoken and always determined.
John Dolva
QUOTE (Cigdem Eksi @ Jan 1 2009, 01:33 PM) *
QUOTE (John Dolva @ Jan 1 2009, 06:10 AM) *
One thing that bothers me about Manga ( and also much ghetto stuff from various rapper derivatives is the objectification of woman) The women in Manga are so often cute and schoolgirlish. The rapper of a particular genre depends on booby butty bimboes 'with all the right moves'.



That's right. The main character in manga is often Bishoujo (beautiful young girl) portrayed as
a good hearted, innocent schoolgirl with a uniform whose skirt occasionally fly about. Although
there have been an increase in the number of female manga authors, the sexist attitude changed
very little. The reason for this lies in the solid structure of the manga industry and the group of
readers it has been aiming at.

The gender roles depicted in manga reflect the traditional Japanese society and culture.The Mother or The Older
Sister in manga is the adult/mature version of Bishoujo, a maternal figure with a pure heart that the main character
asks for advice when she is in trouble. One difference of Bishoujo and modern Japanese girl is that the manga
character is more outspoken and always determined.


Interesting. One thing that strikes me is my misunderstanding is partly that I probably am a target and therefore while I intellectually am a feminist, I'm old school. Perhaps at best what has been derisively termed a snag. Food for thought.

Do you feel that Germaine Greers' "Damned Whores and (or?) Gods Police" concept can help understand the cultural background or is it more complex or subtle than that? I suspect it is, and is not, as Japanese culture when looked at through Kurosawas early works, the young girls were hidden away in movies such as Seven Samurai.
In many cultures until quite recently in written history woman, unless married, or under parental/family protection, could be taken as property by any man who comes across her.

A friend of mine regularly had visitors from Japan, (usually young fruitcakes who thought cycling across Oz pre higher ed was a cool thing to do), as her sister had taught English there some years preiously. Anyway, one night after a dinner party, one young Japanese women needed to get somewhere and as I was driving a guy home we suggested we drop her off. She immediately looked worried and didn't know what to say, or, how to say: no, that would not be proper. As we later had it explained to us.
So, this young Japanese woman seemed perhaps typical in fitting into a rather incongrous role that spoke of both prison and freedom.
Cigdem Göle
QUOTE (John Dolva @ Jan 1 2009, 06:34 PM) *
QUOTE (Cigdem Eksi @ Jan 1 2009, 01:33 PM) *
QUOTE (John Dolva @ Jan 1 2009, 06:10 AM) *
One thing that bothers me about Manga ( and also much ghetto stuff from various rapper derivatives is the objectification of woman) The women in Manga are so often cute and schoolgirlish. The rapper of a particular genre depends on booby butty bimboes 'with all the right moves'.



That's right. The main character in manga is often Bishoujo (beautiful young girl) portrayed as
a good hearted, innocent schoolgirl with a uniform whose skirt occasionally fly about. Although
there have been an increase in the number of female manga authors, the sexist attitude changed
very little. The reason for this lies in the solid structure of the manga industry and the group of
readers it has been aiming at.

The gender roles depicted in manga reflect the traditional Japanese society and culture.The Mother or The Older
Sister in manga is the adult/mature version of Bishoujo, a maternal figure with a pure heart that the main character
asks for advice when she is in trouble. One difference of Bishoujo and modern Japanese girl is that the manga
character is more outspoken and always determined.


Interesting. One thing that strikes me is my misunderstanding is partly that I probably am a target and therefore while I intellectually am a feminist, I'm old school. Perhaps at best what has been derisively termed a snag. Food for thought.

Do you feel that Germaine Greers' "Damned Whores and (or?) Gods Police" concept can help understand the cultural background or is it more complex or subtle than that? I suspect it is, and is not, as Japanese culture when looked at through Kurosawas early works, the young girls were hidden away in movies such as Seven Samurai.
In many cultures until quite recently in written history woman, unless married, or under parental/family protection, could be taken as property by any man who comes across her.

A friend of mine regularly had visitors from Japan, (usually young fruitcakes who thought cycling across Oz pre higher ed was a cool thing to do), as her sister had taught English there some years preiously. Anyway, one night after a dinner party, one young Japanese women needed to get somewhere and as I was driving a guy home we suggested we drop her off. She immediately looked worried and didn't know what to say, or, how to say: no, that would not be proper. As we later had it explained to us.
So, this young Japanese woman seemed perhaps typical in fitting into a rather incongrous role that spoke of both prison and freedom.


That's quite a broad subject to cover in a thread on Manga, but at least on the last
point you made, there is also the possibility that the young Japanese woman was only normal
in not feeling comfortable about travelling with two men she met at a party. smile.gif
John Dolva
That's it. There is culture involved. It was sufficiently out of the ordinary (for me/us) for it to stand out. Why couldn't she just simply say "no, I'm gonna do bla bla..."?

btw, BushiDo is "the soul of Japan", The Sun-God or Devine Emperor. Wordplay - mindplay?
Cigdem Göle
QUOTE (John Dolva @ Jan 2 2009, 12:06 PM) *
That's it. There is culture involved. It was sufficiently out of the ordinary (for me/us) for it to stand out. Why couldn't she just simply say "no, I'm gonna do bla bla..."?

btw, BushiDo is "the soul of Japan", The Sun-God or Devine Emperor. Wordplay - mindplay?



Of course there is culture involved. How can it be the opposite?
Maybe she just couldn't or didn't want to lie.

As far as I know, Bushido means "way of the warrior" and refers to The Samurai.
"wordplay-mindplay?" I look forward to your own explanation for this.

I want to ask you one thing about your previous post.
"....I suspect it is, and is not..." is that meant to show that there's an ironic aspect to your way of thinking?
John Dolva
QUOTE (Cigdem Eksi @ Jan 2 2009, 01:19 PM) *
QUOTE (John Dolva @ Jan 2 2009, 12:06 PM) *
That's it. There is culture involved. It was sufficiently out of the ordinary (for me/us) for it to stand out. Why couldn't she just simply say "no, I'm gonna do bla bla..."?

btw, BushiDo is "the soul of Japan", The Sun-God or Devine Emperor. Wordplay - mindplay?



Of course there is culture involved. How can it be the opposite?
Maybe she just couldn't or didn't want to lie.

As far as I know, Bushido means "way of the warrior" and refers to The Samurai.
"wordplay-mindplay?" I look forward to your own explanation for this.

I want to ask you one thing about your previous post.
"....I suspect it is, and is not..." is that meant to show that there's an ironic aspect to your way of thinking?
My mother tell's me she took a course in Finland in 1953/54 by (in German) a Tojohiko Kagara : ""Bushido - the soul of Japan" where the analysis was that B stands for the sun-god or emperor. The one in direct communion with 'god'. Bishoujo seems a variant of this where the pure mother (sun) is sought out for advice.

The Fox mythologically is a shape shifter that maintains and extends control by staying the same within but takes on guises to suit. ie Manga is a furtherance of a rigid society that only appears to change in order to mollify. Perhaps there's also an element of commercialism shaping consciousness as the young, while innately more justice oriented, are also more naive with regards to impulse and, with a disposable income, becomes a target. Japan was a feudal, closed country, only recently cutting borders for trade. So, is it a way of managing the wish for freedom while maintaining control? I don't know. Hence the apparent irony.

I'm not being deliberately ironic. I've for a large part of my life been interested in the far east. From a mixed background, essentially scandinavian, Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish perspective, the way of thinking or being is similar and different. Enough to confuse and interest me. Greer looks at two roles for woman acceptable in a patriarchial world. IOW it's forced onto women. The simple dichotomy as a starting point is all very well, but there are subtle variations. re Seven Samurai. On the one hand the peasants desperately seek help from Samuriais to save them, yet have an deep innate distrust and hide their young women from them. Ie trusts them in matters of killing men but not in regards to sex. This seems complex, or even absurd to me. I'm sure there is a clearer answer. In Manga there is the girl, or often apparently androgenous persona, and the battles fought. Whatever, it could be seen as progressive and oppressive.

re dinner guest: My understanding is that she was caught in a dilemma. She was torn between a yes, that is a convenient way of getting home (rational), and no, it is not proper to be alone with two strange men for any reason (cultural). Her participation in the mixed dinner party was open. Anyway, the host explained it to me later that such 'unprotected' association was not 'proper' accordig to her (Japanese woman) upbringing.
Daniel Wayne Dunn
I agree with Çiğdem. Any woman from ANY culture would be reticent about taking rides with 2 guys she'd just met at a dinner party, however much her "participation" in the party was regarded by one of the guys as "open" (whatever that might mean). And according to our friends at the CIA, Bushido means "way of the warrior" -- "a code of conduct and a way of life, analogous to the European concept of chivalry."

http://www.123exp-history.com/t/03764084717/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido


The more curious part of this for me is the tangling of Manga into a mainstream media issue (?), which by definition in these parts means it ought not to be trusted: "The Fox mythologically is a shape shifter that maintains and extends control by staying the same within but takes on guises to suit. ie Manga is a furtherance of a rigid society that only appears to change in order to mollify."

I really can find nothing "mollifying" or "comforting" or "complacency-inducing" in Nakazawa's presentation of the aftermath of an atomic bomb blast:

http://titan.iwu.edu/~rwilson/people.html

John Dolva
Well, there are different societies and within these different men and women. Some feel free to say no and some understand what it means and some do not. My personal experience found this encounter odd or thought provoking. By open I mean free. What do you think I meant? It was at a table on which there was food that people ate and there was freely ranging conversation. (The ghouls were safely locked in the dungeon.)

----------------------

BUSHIDO - THE SOUL OF JAPAN BY INAZO NITOBÉ, A.M., Ph.D.
DECEMBER, 1904

" I found that without understanding Feudalism and Bushido,[1] the
moral ideas of present Japan are a sealed volume."

http://www.fullbooks.com/Bushido-the-Soul-of-Japan1.html

Perhaps there is a deeper understanding.

The way of the warrior appears a misnomer. The Ideals of Chivalry is closer to the correct english translation.

It's true that the Samurai class held this as a highest ideal and was a guiding force in Japan as a whole. Samurai women did indeed face the dichotomy of Greer. Their highest duty was at the hearth. Dutiful daughter, faithful wife, protective mother. This duty extended to self destruction if violation occurred or threatened. (a choice of being a God's police or a Damned whore). Thus woman in the Samurai class was least free in Japanese society. Similarly, Valour, to the Samurai man transcended self and bound him to a Loyalty to a higher being. During feudal Japan, this ideal (not a person) was a glue that held society together. In the highest form it was a mythical godlike persona (emperor or war lord) that allegiance and honor (life and death, in peace, battle death, or suicide) was devoted to. Merely being a warrior was not Bushido. It was far more complex than that.

This then did indeed imprison society as a whole while also maintaining it. (btw much cartoon art has a violent pic or two, even superman smile.gif context, context, always context. It's the story as a whole rather than a fragment that speaks closer to the truth. Apostle John, in a letter to a particular grouping, wrote that women shouldn't speak in church (body of believers, not a building) because their understanding through circumstance was not up to speed. They should keep the simpler questions to the home so the church could grow. Christian history is littered with variants that take portions out of context and make that the basis of belief. Likewise a fractured look at any subject will never be the whole truth which often is quite different from that fragment) It did so until the trade with the western world introduced the merchant class and the Samurai died out. Bushido on the other hand did not die. It continues to shape Japanese society. Manga can be seen as a way of (yes, mollifying or imprisoning women) into these ideals. It provides a compelling framework for robotic personas to act out real feelings. Whether it is an appropriate framework is another question.

-------------------

I agree that nuclear blasts, whether from friendly or unfriendly sources, are not very nice.

The written or drawn history throughout the world is littered by 'underground' contributions. I don't think Manga qualifies. Not even as benign Mainstream. The Fox is a typical oriental mythological being. It can be argued that many Chinese see the Chairman as 'foxy', Further, was there ever a 'Last Emperor' or was there simply a morphing that defeats the endless peasant revolts?
Cigdem Göle
QUOTE (Daniel Wayne Dunn @ Jan 3 2009, 02:27 AM) *
I agree with Çiğdem. Any woman from ANY culture would be reticent about taking rides with 2 guys she'd just met at a dinner party, however much her "participation" in the party was regarded by one of the guys as "open" (whatever that might mean). And according to our friends at the CIA, Bushido means "way of the warrior" -- "a code of conduct and a way of life, analogous to the European concept of chivalry."

http://www.123exp-history.com/t/03764084717/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido


The more curious part of this for me is the tangling of Manga into a mainstream media issue (?), which by definition in these parts means it ought not to be trusted: "The Fox mythologically is a shape shifter that maintains and extends control by staying the same within but takes on guises to suit. ie Manga is a furtherance of a rigid society that only appears to change in order to mollify."

I really can find nothing "mollifying" or "comforting" or "complacency-inducing" in Nakazawa's presentation of the aftermath of an atomic bomb blast:

http://titan.iwu.edu/~rwilson/people.html



Hello Dan

It's good to see you're back smile.gif

As you said, it is normal for a woman to worry in such a situation.
I don't think there are many women who would feel comfortable in travelling with two strangers.

Anyway, the aim of this thread was to focus mainly on Nakasawa's art and his depiction of the atomic bomb
disaster. The above drawing disturbingly shows the effects of this incident.
Cigdem Göle
QUOTE (John Dolva @ Jan 3 2009, 02:28 PM) *
This then did indeed imprison society as a whole while also maintaining it. (btw much cartoon art has a violent pic or two, even superman smile.gif context, context, always context. It's the story as a whole rather than a fragment that speaks closer to the truth. Apostle John, in a letter to a particular grouping, wrote that women shouldn't speak in church (body of believers, not a building) because their understanding through circumstance was not up to speed. They should keep the simpler questions to the home so the church could grow. Christian history is littered with variants that take portions out of context and make that the basis of belief. Likewise a fractured look at any subject will never be the whole truth which often is quite different from that fragment) It did so until the trade with the western world introduced the merchant class and the Samurai died out. Bushido on the other hand did not die. It continues to shape Japanese society. Manga can be seen as a way of (yes, mollifying or imprisoning women) into these ideals. It provides a compelling framework for robotic personas to act out real feelings. Whether it is an appropriate framework is another question.


John,
It's the nature of all art forms i.e., creating a fantasy world where the characters do/say things which people in real
life usually don't. Manga is based on this fantasy. The female figures in it are often forward and determined, therefore successful.
Also they represent innocence. They experience romance in a childish way, which is meant to show the notion "good girls
don't". The cartoon characters live in a different world and their experiences are extraordinary. That's why they are popular.
I don't think Manga or any other cartoon format aims to imprison women. They should be seen as fantasy not as a concept to blame.
John Dolva
John,
It's the nature of all art forms i.e., creating a fantasy world where the characters do/say things which people in real
life usually don't. Manga is based on this fantasy. The female figures in it are often forward and determined, therefore successful.
Also they represent innocence. They experience romance in a childish way, which is meant to show the notion "good girls
don't". The cartoon characters live in a different world and their experiences are extraordinary. That's why they are popular.
I don't think Manga or any other cartoon format aims to imprison women. They should be seen as fantasy not as a concept to blame.

Cigdem, you could very well be right. Nevertheless I find the discourse interesting (see GO topic) the young Samurai was initiated while sitting on a traditional GO board).

ps in the context (host being my girlfriend, Japanese girl her friend and the guy I was driving home a nice guy, a few minute side trip to drop her at the train station is not a scenario to conjure up fear. At least not in my experience.
Cigdem Göle
QUOTE (John Dolva @ Jan 3 2009, 04:11 PM) *
Cigdem, you could very well be right. Nevertheless I find the discourse interesting (see GO topic) the young Samurai was initiated while sitting on a traditional GO board).

ps in the context (host being my girlfriend, Japanese girl her friend and the guy I was driving home a nice guy, a few minute side trip to drop her at the train station is not a scenario to conjure up fear. At least not in my experience.



John, if I remember right, you said that these girls were high school graduates (you call them fruitcakes? smile.gif ).
So, maybe because of her young age she felt insecure. Of course it doesn't seem like a fearful scenario
(it's a kind offer). I think we should also see her timidness as a normal reaction of her being inexperienced.
Daniel Wayne Dunn
QUOTE (John Dolva @ Jan 3 2009, 07:28 AM) *
Well, there are different societies and within these different men and women. Some feel free to say no and some understand what it means and some do not. My personal experience found this encounter odd or thought provoking. By open I mean free. What do you think I meant? It was at a table on which there was food that people ate and there was freely ranging conversation. (The ghouls were safely locked in the dungeon.)

----------------------

BUSHIDO - THE SOUL OF JAPAN BY INAZO NITOBÉ, A.M., Ph.D.
DECEMBER, 1904

" I found that without understanding Feudalism and Bushido,[1] the
moral ideas of present Japan are a sealed volume."

http://www.fullbooks.com/Bushido-the-Soul-of-Japan1.html

Perhaps there is a deeper understanding.

The way of the warrior appears a misnomer. The Ideals of Chivalry is closer to the correct english translation.

It's true that the Samurai class held this as a highest ideal and was a guiding force in Japan as a whole. Samurai women did indeed face the dichotomy of Greer. Their highest duty was at the hearth. Dutiful daughter, faithful wife, protective mother. This duty extended to self destruction if violation occurred or threatened. (a choice of being a God's police or a Damned whore). Thus woman in the Samurai class was least free in Japanese society. Similarly, Valour, to the Samurai man transcended self and bound him to a Loyalty to a higher being. During feudal Japan, this ideal (not a person) was a glue that held society together. In the highest form it was a mythical godlike persona (emperor or war lord) that allegiance and honor (life and death, in peace, battle death, or suicide) was devoted to. Merely being a warrior was not Bushido. It was far more complex than that.

This then did indeed imprison society as a whole while also maintaining it. (btw much cartoon art has a violent pic or two, even superman smile.gif context, context, always context. It's the story as a whole rather than a fragment that speaks closer to the truth. Apostle John, in a letter to a particular grouping, wrote that women shouldn't speak in church (body of believers, not a building) because their understanding through circumstance was not up to speed. They should keep the simpler questions to the home so the church could grow. Christian history is littered with variants that take portions out of context and make that the basis of belief. Likewise a fractured look at any subject will never be the whole truth which often is quite different from that fragment) It did so until the trade with the western world introduced the merchant class and the Samurai died out. Bushido on the other hand did not die. It continues to shape Japanese society. Manga can be seen as a way of (yes, mollifying or imprisoning women) into these ideals. It provides a compelling framework for robotic personas to act out real feelings. Whether it is an appropriate framework is another question.

-------------------

I agree that nuclear blasts, whether from friendly or unfriendly sources, are not very nice.

The written or drawn history throughout the world is littered by 'underground' contributions. I don't think Manga qualifies. Not even as benign Mainstream. The Fox is a typical oriental mythological being. It can be argued that many Chinese see the Chairman as 'foxy', Further, was there ever a 'Last Emperor' or was there simply a morphing that defeats the endless peasant revolts?

Okay, John, I'm instead going to say the only thing I first thought of when reading your posts yesterday: No more drinks for you. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

I hope sometime when you get the chance you'll let us have a gander at the whole truth instead of the mere fragments that're bein' bandied about by the likes o' me. I'm fairly aware that a simple "way of warrior" doesn't equate to Bushido in any simplistic sense -- this is why Westerners try to make the connection with chivalry; but all my books on Zen and Tao and archery and swordsmanship are all up in attics right now, so I say you win

EXCEPT, i have to object to this "nuclear blasts, whether from friendly or unfriendly sources, are not very nice" and "btw much cartoon art has a violent pic or two, even superman" As if what Nakazawa presents in that image were merely "a violent pic"!!!!!! Whatever you may think Manga "qualifies" as or does not qualify as, it would help if a m*t*e*f*c*er could be less glib about something like the representational aftermath of a nuclear blast
John Dolva
QUOTE (Daniel Wayne Dunn @ Jan 3 2009, 10:21 PM) *
QUOTE (John Dolva @ Jan 3 2009, 07:28 AM) *
Well, there are different societies and within these different men and women. Some feel free to say no and some understand what it means and some do not. My personal experience found this encounter odd or thought provoking. By open I mean free. What do you think I meant? It was at a table on which there was food that people ate and there was freely ranging conversation. (The ghouls were safely locked in the dungeon.)

----------------------

BUSHIDO - THE SOUL OF JAPAN BY INAZO NITOBÉ, A.M., Ph.D.
DECEMBER, 1904

" I found that without understanding Feudalism and Bushido,[1] the
moral ideas of present Japan are a sealed volume."

http://www.fullbooks.com/Bushido-the-Soul-of-Japan1.html

Perhaps there is a deeper understanding.

The way of the warrior appears a misnomer. The Ideals of Chivalry is closer to the correct english translation.

It's true that the Samurai class held this as a highest ideal and was a guiding force in Japan as a whole. Samurai women did indeed face the dichotomy of Greer. Their highest duty was at the hearth. Dutiful daughter, faithful wife, protective mother. This duty extended to self destruction if violation occurred or threatened. (a choice of being a God's police or a Damned whore). Thus woman in the Samurai class was least free in Japanese society. Similarly, Valour, to the Samurai man transcended self and bound him to a Loyalty to a higher being. During feudal Japan, this ideal (not a person) was a glue that held society together. In the highest form it was a mythical godlike persona (emperor or war lord) that allegiance and honor (life and death, in peace, battle death, or suicide) was devoted to. Merely being a warrior was not Bushido. It was far more complex than that.

This then did indeed imprison society as a whole while also maintaining it. (btw much cartoon art has a violent pic or two, even superman smile.gif context, context, always context. It's the story as a whole rather than a fragment that speaks closer to the truth. Apostle John, in a letter to a particular grouping, wrote that women shouldn't speak in church (body of believers, not a building) because their understanding through circumstance was not up to speed. They should keep the simpler questions to the home so the church could grow. Christian history is littered with variants that take portions out of context and make that the basis of belief. Likewise a fractured look at any subject will never be the whole truth which often is quite different from that fragment) It did so until the trade with the western world introduced the merchant class and the Samurai died out. Bushido on the other hand did not die. It continues to shape Japanese society. Manga can be seen as a way of (yes, mollifying or imprisoning women) into these ideals. It provides a compelling framework for robotic personas to act out real feelings. Whether it is an appropriate framework is another question.

-------------------

I agree that nuclear blasts, whether from friendly or unfriendly sources, are not very nice.

The written or drawn history throughout the world is littered by 'underground' contributions. I don't think Manga qualifies. Not even as benign Mainstream. The Fox is a typical oriental mythological being. It can be argued that many Chinese see the Chairman as 'foxy', Further, was there ever a 'Last Emperor' or was there simply a morphing that defeats the endless peasant revolts?

Okay, John, I'm instead going to say the only thing I first thought of when reading your posts yesterday: No more drinks for you. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

I hope sometime when you get the chance you'll let us have a gander at the whole truth instead of the mere fragments that're bein' bandied about by the likes o' me. I'm fairly aware that a simple "way of warrior" doesn't equate to Bushido in any simplistic sense -- this is why Westerners try to make the connection with chivalry; but all my books on Zen and Tao and archery and swordsmanship are all up in attics right now, so I say you win

EXCEPT, i have to object to this "nuclear blasts, whether from friendly or unfriendly sources, are not very nice" and "btw much cartoon art has a violent pic or two, even superman" As if what Nakazawa presents in that image were merely "a violent pic"!!!!!! Whatever you may think Manga "qualifies" as or does not qualify as, it would help if a m*t*e*f*c*er could be less glib about something like the representational aftermath of a nuclear blast


Cigdem, I'm not a particularly kind person, though I try . The offer of a ride was simply a suggestion and not a particulalry selfsacrificing one at that.

It was the reason explained to me after by the host that combined with seeing her discomfiture that puzzled me.

These ex students were doing a typical pre higher ed ( it's a typical leaving home and making a name type of activity also described by Inazo Nitobe in his 1904 book on the subject ( the opening of Japan to the outside world started around 1870 and then very slowly so in making the connection with chivalry has likely a Japanese genesis ) ) activity of taking on a big challenge. Bicycling 4000 k's across Oz, crossing the NullArbor with the heat, desert cold, truck and double dogs endlessly streaming past at 110 kph on a two lane road with soft edges is to me somewhat fruitcakey, certainly risky. At the time I was not much older than them and didn't see the Japanese visitors as schoolgirls or school boys. (Hermann Hesse describes similar traditions in German society, usually a young man was given a handful of coins and sent on his way and not permitted to return for a year. A couple of these ragged 'birdmen' are shown in a photo shaking hand with Hitler at the Eages nest.)

Daniel, given I'm an alcoholic and therefore don't drink, let's leave that one alone, huh?
It's the Ideals of Valour and Honor (Bushido) that binds the Samurai, not the way of a warrior.
I'm not in this to win but to learn. the Oriental mindset, for me, is incongrous in many ways. But for billions it is clear. Much of my life has been one of trying to understand it. I think it would be beneficial to achieve that.

Ok, I'll try to help you : the glibness of "friendly or unfriendly weaponry" is a 'concept' from the mouths of US of A jingoists. Let me rephrase it : "Nuclear weapons are NOT nice, they hurt people on a massive scale, leaving a scar that that takes a very long time to heal." Having them makes humanity glib. Glib about nuclear waste, glib about nuclear power stations. I feel great sorrow for the Hiroshima/Nagasakis needless victims. And disgust for the US prez in stalling the CCCP after they won on the European theatre and tthen turning its attention to Japan while Japan was sending out feelers for surrender. Thus it became cruel testing ground for atomic bombs on innocemt civilians. Damn the dogs of war. Even the Bushido style Okinawa suicides of tens of thusands Japanese men women and children horrified US soldiers.
I'll never have a whole picture, only a sense of what it might hypothetically be. If it ever becomes coherent I'll post it.
D*c*h*a*.
Daniel Wayne Dunn
QUOTE (John Dolva @ Jan 3 2009, 10:53 PM) *
I'm not in this to win but to learn.

Au contraire, mi amigo. One with so much to say is mainly interested in winning.

And so you have. You must be right and I must be wrong. That's the important lesson here.

But thank you for trying to help me.

Sayonara
Daniel Wayne Dunn
QUOTE (Cigdem Eksi @ Jan 3 2009, 08:18 AM) *
Hello Dan

It's good to see you're back :)

As you said, it is normal for a woman to worry in such a situation.
I don't think there are many women who would feel comfortable in travelling with two strangers.

Anyway, the aim of this thread was to focus mainly on Nakasawa's art and his depiction of the atomic bomb
disaster. The above drawing disturbingly shows the effects of this incident.

Thank you for the welcome back, Çiğdem. But thankfully for most of the concerned parties, it's only a brief visit. I hope you are well and have a good 2009.
Cigdem Göle
QUOTE (Daniel Wayne Dunn @ Jan 4 2009, 04:47 PM) *
Thank you for the welcome back, Çiğdem. But thankfully for most of the concerned parties, it's only a brief visit. I hope you are well and have a good 2009.



You can run but you can't hide. Besides, I know where you live smile.gif
Happy new year to you, too.
Cigdem Göle
QUOTE (John Dolva @ Jan 4 2009, 05:53 AM) *
Cigdem, I'm not a particularly kind person, though I try . The offer of a ride was simply a suggestion and not a particulalry selfsacrificing one at that.

It was the reason explained to me after by the host that combined with seeing her discomfiture that puzzled me.

These ex students were doing a typical pre higher ed ( it's a typical leaving home and making a name type of activity also described by Inazo Nitobe in his 1904 book on the subject ( the opening of Japan to the outside world started around 1870 and then very slowly so in making the connection with chivalry has likely a Japanese genesis ) ) activity of taking on a big challenge. Bicycling 4000 k's across Oz, crossing the NullArbor with the heat, desert cold, truck and double dogs endlessly streaming past at 110 kph on a two lane road with soft edges is to me somewhat fruitcakey, certainly risky. At the time I was not much older than them and didn't see the Japanese visitors as schoolgirls or school boys. (Hermann Hesse describes similar traditions in German society, usually a young man was given a handful of coins and sent on his way and not permitted to return for a year. A couple of these ragged 'birdmen' are shown in a photo shaking hand with Hitler at the Eages nest.)


John,

I now understand your point. Thanks for the clarification and also thanks for your interest. smile.gif

Be well,
Çiğdem
John Dolva
You're welcome, Çiğdem.
Thanks for the topic. It's been interesting.
You be well too.
John Dolva
Daniel.

I apologise for any maligning and/or distress of any kind that my illconsidered comments may have caused.

I have read a couple of your later posts, and they indicate to me that my ignorant heat of the moment comments were just that : Ignorant. Ego driven.
We are humans with the flaws that come with it. I can't claim any high ground in my behaviour.

Sincerely, John.
Daniel Wayne Dunn
There was no need for an apology, John, and I didn't feel any maligning or distress from you. But I also apologize to you for being carelessly insulting, since I didn't consider any possible drinking issues in making a bit of fun, and especially in my use of language. In my background the term "a m*t*e*f*c*er" is often used in the sense of the indefinite pronoun "one" or as a self-reference or as a second person pronoun: as in "if you all would be quiet a m*t*e*f*c*er could hear himself think"; "if you would quit going back for extra helpings, maybe some other m*t*e*f*c*ers could eat"; "if a m*t*e*f*c*er would lend us a hand, this job could get done quicker"; etc. I'm sorry for any insult or misunderstandings.

Take care,
Dan
John Dolva
Thank you, Daniel, very much.
John.


___________

I suppose that with an international multicultural forum there will always be semantic and cultural differences that cause some degrees of the tensions on the forum. I don't think that is needs be a problem, rather it can be educational.
John Dolva
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