The Georgian Peace Committee declares asks World public opinion not to identify the current Georgian leadership with the people of Georgia, with the Georgian nation.


Declaration of the Georgian Peace Committee

Once more Georgia was launched into a situation of chaos and bloodshed. A new fratricidal war exploded with renewed strength on Georgian soil.

To our great disappointment, the alerts of the Georgian Peace Committee and of progressive personalities of Georgia on the pernicious character of the militarization of the country and on the danger of a pro-fascist and nationalist policy had no effect. The authorities of Georgia once again organized a bloody war, feeling the support of some Western countries and of regional and international organizations. It will take decades to cleanse the shame poured by the current holders of the power over the Georgian people.

The Georgian army—armed and trained by U.S. instructors and using also U.S. armaments—subjected the city of Tskhinvali to a barbaric destruction. The bombings killed Ossetian civilians, our brothers and sisters, children, women and elderly people. Over 2,000 inhabitants of Tskhinvali and of its surroundings died.

Hundreds of civilians of Georgian nationality also died, both in the conflict zone as well as in the entire territory of Georgia.

The Georgian Peace Committee expresses its deep condolences to the relatives and friends of those who have perished.

The entire responsibility for this fratricidal war, for thousands of children, women and elderly dead people, for the inhabitants of South Ossetia and of Georgia falls exclusively on the current president, on the Parliament and on the government of Georgia.

The irresponsibility and the adventurism of the Saakashvili regime have no limits. There is no doubt the president of Georgia and his team are criminals and must be held responsible. The Georgian Peace Committee, together with all the progressive parties and social movements of Georgia, will struggle to assure that the organizers of this monstrous genocide have a severe and legitimate punishment.

The Georgian Peace Committee declares and asks broad public opinion not to identify the current Georgian leadership with the people of Georgia, with the Georgian nation, and appeals to all to support the Georgian people in the struggle against the criminal regime of Saakashvili.

We appeal to all the political forces of Georgia, the social movements and the people of Georgia to unite in order to free the country from the Russian-phobic and pro-fascist anti-popular regime of Saakashvili!

The Georgian Peace Committee Tbilisi, Aug. 11, 2008

Just another Harvard-educated war criminal. Arrest him now!

I don't think they are a real group, they don't seem to have existed before the declaration. I called the phone number and I spoke to the "head" of the group he claims they have "about 1000 members in all of Georgia", I have my doubts. Even if true that comes out to about 1/46th of 1% of the population. Since his English is poor I will try to get more info via e-mail.

If you want to bump up those figures of yours, Len. You might want to call some of your friends from Tskhinvali. You know, the sleepy little provincial capital of South Ossetia that the Georgian Army snuck up on in the middle of the night and shelled. Shelled with artillery, for God's sake!!! Killed 1500 of his own Georgian citizens that night, our guy Saakashvili did (whatever passports they held, they were Georgians) according to the Russians, anyway. Those liars. Probably less, in fact, who knows? Let's say only 800-1200 killed. You get those numbers, Len? And these, town of 30,000/1500 killed/Percent of town destroyed/remaining population in province 50,000. What's that add up to? You do the math, Len. You're the numbers guy. And, mind you, our boy was just getting started. He sacked that town and now had the rest of the province to burn. Those dastardly Russians had the unmitigated gall to then INVADE (omg) and prevent further loss of life within an area that their peacekeepers died and where they were required by treaty, signed by Georgia, to maintain a peacekeeping force! What nerve. Who do they think they are, the good guys in white hats? Cowboys????? Yeah, gives them civilians and peacekeepers a nice wake up call, artillery will. Can't get more indiscriminate then artillery, you know. Artillery make it all fair, you're fair, aren't you, Len? Under pounding artillery, aimed by incompents in the dark of night, everyone has the same chance of living or dying. Men, women, children, babies....babies...and peacekeepers. Yeah, by treaty the Russians and Georgians had peacekeepers asleep in the town that night. Half of them were killed? Peacekeepers? By treaty? Yep, Russian, Georgian...and somebody else...maybe South Ossetians, Ukranians, I'm not sure. I don't know if any of the Georgian contingent of the peacekeeping force was killed by their own army that dark, silent night or if they were nice enough to let them know in advance to get the hell out of there. Either way, wouldn't suprise me, casualties of war, nature of sneak attacks, I guess. It's info that would be kept under wraps over here in the US in any event. What if half our peacekeepers were killed by a sneak artillery attack in the middle of the night without warning? How would our countries react? Anyway, see if those numbers amount to anything except happy days are here again for the MICC. Yeah, give them a call. Nothing better to do, right? Oh, btw, do you know what a direct hit of an artillery does to a 5 year old sleeping child, do you care? Maybe as long as there is a purpose, huh? Those purposes, somebodys purposes, sure not mine, sigh. So many times, I'm ashamed to be a human being. You see, I guess I'm just a self-hating human being so naturally you can just disregard anything I say. Just listen to the mockingbird, listen to the mockingbird.

The obvious intent of Maggie`s post, the declaration and the spin it is given on the Web is to create the impression of widespread support for the views expressed in it by the people of Georgia proper. That doesn`t seem to be the case. Even if we accept the man’s estimate his group only represents a minuscule fraction of a percent of his country’s population. To give an extreme example I imagine a far larger percentage of Americas and British remained sympathetic to the Nazi’s during WWII I also would be surprised if one could organize a similarly small number of South Ossetians who wish to remain part of Georgia.

As for civilian casualties According to the BBC even the Russians now say only 133 were killed and Human Rights Watch says the numbers are in the dozens. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7572635.stm. According to one HRW article:

A doctor at Tskhinvali Regional Hospital who was on duty from the afternoon of August 7 told Human Rights Watch that ..there were more military personnel than civilians among the wounded....The doctor also said that 44 bodies had been brought to the hospital since the fighting began, of both military and civilians. The figure reflects only those killed in the city of Tskhinvali. But the doctor was adamant that the majority of people killed in the city had been brought to the hospital before being buried, because the city morgue was not functioning due to the lack of electricity in the city.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/russia19620.htm

In contrast to reports the city had been leveled the Russians now say "There are more than 7,000 buildings in South Ossetia's capital and one tenth of them are beyond repair," Blank said. About 20% of the city's buildings have suffered various damage, he said.

http://www.interfax.com/3/420066/news.aspx

According to a western journalist take n on a Russian tour of the city most of those buildings “appeared to be around Tskhinvali's government center…Several residential areas seemed to have little damage, except for shattered windows” On the other hand “Reporters witnessed more than a dozen fires in what appeared to be deserted ethnic Georgian neighborhoods and saw evidence of looting in those areas.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8081202480.html

So if most of the injured were “military personnel” and most of the damaged building were government installations the logical assumption must be that most of those killed were military or at leat government workers.

I’m not defending Saakashvili’s invasion. If I were Georgian I think I be pushing for him to stepdown. I believe it was a stupid unnecessary escalation and that South Ossetia should be allowed to become independent but all the involved parties the Ossetians, Russians, Georgians and their respective supporters all acted and continue to act irresponsibly causing widespread death, injury, displacement and disruption of innocent civilians. Unfortunately it seems most people only take notice of or care about the suffering of one side

As for your benevolent peace keepers, the Russians, they seem to have caused a lot of civilian casualties in Gori and other Georgian cities. [See the HRW link above and http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08...ection=features ]

You also might want to do some research into the proposed natural gas and oil pipelines through Georgia that would circumvent Russians regional monopoly on those commodities if you really think the Russians concerns were only humanitarian, why do you think the US is so “buddy-buddy” with Georgia in the first place?

My view is “a pox on both your houses” to the Russian and Georgian governments but unfortunately the pox primarily affected Ossetian and Georgian civilians.

At this point pretty much all news services agree that Georgia initiated aggression by bombarding South Ossetia (esp. Tskhinvali). So Georgia did bomb civilians and should be censured by the UN et al.
The number of killed, however, is still in contention:

133 killed:

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/9707908.asp?scr=1

Russian news claims 2000 were killed (changed from Russian claim of 1500 killed):

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28770

Various (and many) news services claim different numbers between 133 and 2000. Likely the number is less than 2000 but greater than 133.

Also claims of Russian retaliation in Gori and other cities include a large number of Georgians killed (175), as well as looting and other criminal behavior on the part of the Russians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/16/world/eu...georgia.html?hp


This seems to be clearly the result of a Georgian escalation in the perennial border conflict between South Ossetia and Georgia, where Georgia has committed a senseless and censurable act.

The details of the post Georgian attack are still coming in. Russia apparently is not innocent in this affair either, although if ever Russia could take the moral high ground in invading a neighboring country, this would be it.


Due to the affinity both sides have of putting spin on the news, I will wait before attempting to list the post August 7th and 8th casualties and/or atrocities by either side. Some already have the Russian News reports, or proxies, which is good enough to start the roll.

Peter - We seem to have cross posted. It will be interesting to see if the Russians move the estimate of civilian dead up again. The 133 figure is more inline with the estimates from Human Rights Watch. The only people still saying around 2000 civilians were killed are the Ossetian separatists who have plenty of motive to exaggerate the numbers for propaganda purposes the 2nd link was from August 9.



I wonder when if ever we’re going to see a post from Paul condemning Putin the war criminal. Perhaps Georgian lives are worth less than Ossetian ones.



At this point none of the sides have the right to "the moral high ground" hence all the spin. This however won't block supporters of either side from trying to paint this very gray tragedy black and white.


Due to the affinity both sides have of putting spin on the news, I will wait before attempting to list the post August 7th and 8th casualties and/or atrocities by either side. Some already have the Russian News reports, or proxies, which is good enough to start the roll.

I have some good friends who are Soviet expatriates (although I have not spoken to any of them in well over a year). Their opinion of Putin was that he was a KGB thug who had chiseled and extorted his way into the power structure, bringing his sycophantic infrastructure up with him.

If you have ever known any Russians, they have a marvelous, and incredibly resilient, culture. I especially enjoy the Russian sense of humor, it is unique in this world. I can't explain its uniqueness. It is self deprecating, yet biting, acid/caustic in its vitriol, yet somehow charming, elegant, and personal.

A good friend of mine had left Russia under the Helsinki agreement in 1972. He was well educated, having a Masters degree in Philosophy, and a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering. He had read over ten thousand books before turning thirty five and still had every one of them (he had quite a library). He was the number one ranked amateur middle weight boxer in the Soviet Union and at the same time he was the second ranked amateur middle weight boxer in Europe.

He had served as a Captain in the Russian Army.

Yet after all of his achievements, he had decided to leave Russia with almost no money, nothing. His wife was a computer programmer (this was in 1972) who wrote code for banks and banking systems. She was in immediate demand in the US (banks) and was soon a senior executive in the headquarters of a large US bank in New York.

The stories they told me of their treatment by the KGB (they were from among the Intelligentsia) were horrific. Despite their personal accomplishments and obvious wit and intelligence, they were treated like white collar slaves. They were arrested and questioned on a whim, and the KGB methods resembled the stories coming out of Guantanamo. What surprised me the most was the deeply rooted racism and bigotry running rampant within the KGB during Soviet times.

When Putin rose to power, these friends of mine (including other Russian expatriates I knew), realizing that Putin had been a KGB Colonel, and many of his advisors and associates, within the FSB (the modern day equivalent of the KGB), were also made up of ex-KGB, he warned me that these men had files on everyone, and would not hesitate to take whatever they wanted. They would soon control Russia.

He was right. Now the Russian government, the bureaucracy, important ministerial positions, are held by cronies of Putin. Many Oligarchs, who fought against Putin's policies, and who had controlled and owned much of Russia's vast wealth of natural resources, have been either imprisoned or killed and their wealth, confiscated and appropriated into the hands of these self same bureaucrats.

Once the war in Chechnya began and dissident journalists inside of Russia began dying, especially following the Moscow apartment bombings (300 dead, FSB agent nabbed with explosives before a second, worse disaster took place, however he ends up released on a technicality, or some such), Litvinenko’s murder, with the signature of the FSB, as if to say "We Did It!" and the school killings (children murdered), my friend advised me "They're back", meaning the same totalitarian rulers who terrorized the populace in Felix Dzerzhinzki's and Lavrentia Beria's time. The West didn't understand those men, how could you understand such brutality.

The same apologists who are crowing today about how good it is n Russia compared t the US, as they were back then, pandering to the same blanched story; people comparing western leaders to the same disguised psychopaths, because they simply do not understand. It must be Naivete, at least I hope its naiveté. The leaders in the west aren't perfect by any means, but there isn't really a comparison. The US has an utterly open and free government by comparison.
\
I got a bad case of déjà vu, again.

When I said they could take the moral high ground, I meant it was there for them to take, but they didn’t seem to want it.

I agree, we have to wait until the spin doctors have finished with the news to figure out what happened.

...."I’m not defending Saakashvili’s invasion. If I were Georgian I think I be pushing for him to stepdown."....


I wouldn't be suprised if soon the people of Georgia are in the streets trying to excrete Saakashvili, the "Butcher of Tsblisi" and his henchmen. Take a look at that cabinet sometime, btw. I got a laugh when I did. I think it's a great nickname I coined for him, don't you? "The Butcher of Tsblisi". I know it wasn't Tbilisi that he unleashed his Artillery on, it was Tskhinvali. But that doesn't have anywhere near the ring to it as "The Butcher of Tbilisi", don't you agree? And i-i-it's the Capital, right?...that kinda justifies it, sort of. Anywho, it sure does that have a nice ring to it. Feel free to help popularize it, it would be neat if it spread fast, wouldn't it? One thing about Saakashvili that you notice right away, besides the fact that he's certainly ready for "The Not Ready for Prime Time Players" and that he is a perfect replica of a 200 pound block of wood. After a few minutes, if you're preceptive, you'd also notice that you'd have to go a long way to find someone in whom the banality of evil was so well defined. His banality is at least as well defined as the orginal person to merit that nomenclature. I hope that my nickname for him takes off. It'd be cool. to see "The Butcher of Tbilisi" on the front page of a newspaper someday. I'd be so proud, can you help? Can you start refering to him as the "Butcher of Tsblisi" to your family and friends around the world that you call? You must spend a lot on phone bills. Or, if you could say, the "so-called Butcher of Tbilisi" would be even better. When you get a so-called in front of a phrase, let's face it, you've arrived. And the perfect words that would go with it in a front page headline would be "Convicted of War Crimes on all counts", don't you think? Phrases go together like peas and carrots, don't they?


...."I believe it was a stupid unnecessary escalation...."

August 20, 2008 Ruters used a similar euphemism, theirs was "Conflict between Georgia and Russia erupted when Georgia tried to reimpose control over the breakaway..(region)". "Reimpose control", "Escalation"...and hundreds, yes hundreds of other euphemisms like it are all over the so-called MSM. If you ever decided you wanted to compose a Dictionary of Euphemisms for an indiscrimanate suprise artillery attack in the dead of night on a sleeping defenseless City, now is the time!! Be a piece of cake, the media already did all the legwork! Just pick the gold! Ahhh, fortune passes everywhere. You see, Len, when one believes that a 5 year old child killed by a direct hit from artillery fired by a suprise artillery attack in the dead of night should properly be refered to as an "escalation". Len, thinking like that puts someone not far from madness. Occupational hazard in some jobs though, yours? But to tell the truth, Len, using euphemism's like that is a sign of a socipathic thought process.

Let's go to work some more, then you say you think...

"....that South Ossetia should be allowed to become independent but all the involved parties the Ossetians, Russians, Georgians and their respective supporters all acted and continue to act irresponsibly causing widespread death, injury, displacement and disruption of innocent civilians. Unfortunately it seems most people only take notice of or care about the suffering of one side...."

Oh my God, Len.!!! Except for placing the blame to the ones who initiated the violence ( such a minor point), you are right there! Run with it now.

...As for your benevolent peace keepers, the Russians...."

Len, I just told you it was an international force, there by treaty signed be the Georgians more then a decade ago.And the coaltion peacekeeping forces were composed not only of Russians but Georgians and...somebody else, I don't recall. Hey, you have any interns sitting around doodling that could look that up? I'm just too lazy. And, did I somehow infer that I thought of them as benevolent? Why is everyone in my life always putting words in my mouth?? That happen to you a lot, Len? Those coalition peacekeepers were no more or less noble than any other peacekeepers stationed by different armies, by different treatys around the world. Those dirty, rotten (happy now?) peacekeepers, or you could call them, sacrificial lambs, ( Russia, Georgia...and lets say South Ossetian, whatever they were) were stationed in town, sleeping in their barracks when the sneak attack occured, were there because of these treaty obligations. The "Butcher of Tsblisi" broke the treaty in a sneak attack and killed the peacekeepers (maybe the Georgian peacekeepers too, not sure, get those interns working, will ya?). And you know they had to be at least as benevolent as some of our own allied nation's "occupation" forces. My God, how could they not be? I'm sure they will follow up on their commitments a hundredfold more then some of occupiers that we support. You know who I'm talking about, don't you, Len? And finally this.

...You also might want to do some research into the proposed natural gas and oil pipelines through Georgia that would circumvent Russians regional monopoly on those commodities if you really think the Russians concerns were only humanitarian, why do you think the US is so “buddy-buddy” with Georgia in the first place?...

There you go again, Len. Engaging in some bizarre conspiracy theory. So tedious. But I will look into it if you do something for me. You're like a numbers-on-the-phone kind of guy, right? Call somebody, or whatever and get the me number and tonnage of artillery shells that struck Tskhinvali in the sneak attack. Number and size of the rounds would be the best!! While you're at it, get number of children under 12 years old who were killed in their sleep wearing spiderman pajama's. See, we can help each other! Got any kids yourself, Len? I've found that they really teach you how to properly view the world. They get your head on straight unless it's just too, too twisted. Couldn't recommend them more. And promise me that you'll start to use "Butcher of Tiblisi" in casual conversations with your friends, on the phone and in your posts.Thanks. I'll get you back for it, really.

Meanwhile Peter says,

...So Georgia did bomb civilians and should be censured by the UN et al. ...

He bombed civilian so he should be censured, Peter? That's it? No crimes against humanity? Nothing else? Censure, that's not even a slap on the wrists, is it? And how his method? Sneak nightime attack surly in aggravating what ever he is guilty of. The peacekeepers, Peter, how do you justify the deaths of the peacekeepers. Maybe the Russians were just supposed to take that, the deaths of their peacekeepers. Just watch them die and not respond. Is that right? The Butcher sure thought so. Brilliant guy, Columbia, you know. Might have a big library even. Don't look like he ever throws anything away either. Or, maybe you think that since the total number of deaths were low, so it's ok. People and numbers = arguments without resolution. To me, a crime against humanity can have but a single victim. My advice is, don't get caught up with numbers, Peter. It demonstrates naiveté.
Remember, "figures don't lie, but liars figure". It only gives advantage to the other side in moral arguments. Numbers give them something to argue about instead forcing them to focus on the central issues of the argument, thus they seek to obfuscate the argument without refuting the thesis. Cheap, Stoic trick. Little wonder no one liked them. The Stoics, that is. People used to chase them out of their villages, I think. Regardless of numbers, there is no argument regarding Saakashvili, the so-called "Butcher of Tbilisi"'s culpulbility in the sneak attack. You know or any of your ilk give any clear reasons why you believe the Russians are acting in bad faith? Just supportable facts, not conspiracy theory. Left wing conspiracy theories, Right wing conspiracy theories. Please, it just get's so tiresome, so trite.

Google Skype



LOL and you complain about having words put in your mouth.



I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your selective reading of my posts was unintentional take another look. Using similar logic I could argue that rationalizing Russia’s killing of Georgian civilians “is a sign of a sociopathic thought process”.



Read again as I did blame the Georgians. Who ‘started it’ unclear according to the Georgians the Ossetian attacks on Georgian civilians preceded their invasion of Ossetia however as I said this didn’t justify the invasion, on the other hand Georgia’s invasion of South Ossetia didn’t justify Russia’s invasion of Georgia. The fact that Georgia seems to have tried to create a false flag incident with the other breakaway province complicates things because they cast doubt on the supposed ‘provocation’. The deaths of and attacks on Georgian civilians have been confirmed by outside observers and in some cases by the Russians themselves.



I was clearly referring to the troops that invaded Georgia.



You with obvious sarcasm wrote:

"Those dastardly Russians had the unmitigated gall to then INVADE (omg) and prevent further loss of life within an area that their peacekeepers died and where they were required by treaty, signed by Georgia, to maintain a peacekeeping force!"

You conveniently chose to ignore their advance in Georgia proper.


All the time, see above.



So you insinuate I’m sociopathic then you reply to a reasonable request to look into a probable motive for Russia’s actions about which abundant information is available on the Net with an absurd request like the one you proposed and you wish to be taken seriously? Do you understand the concept of logical fallacy?



Not that it was justifiable but the available evidence suggests that the artillery attack was not as large or indiscriminate as Russian propaganda and you suggest.

As for the pipelines see my next post.



There you go again insinuating I’m sociopathic. Yeah I have kids which is why I’m just as bothered by Georgian ones being killed as Ossetian ones. You only seem preoccupied by the latter shall I insinuate this indicates a character flaw on your part? Would that be fair and reasonable? If you continue to initiate personal attacks I will cease replying to you.



Only if you promise to refer to Putin as the “Butcher of the Kremlin” in the same circumstances.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1027bdb0-69e9-11...00779fd18c.html



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7561466.stm

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0816/p14s01-cogn.html

Klare harly seems sympathetic to the US's action in the region as he made clear in his interview on Democracy Now!

He did say however that the pipeline routes "was the basis on which the US forged a military alliance with Georgia. " and that The pipelines...



http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/15/russ..._fueled_by_rush

So,it's all about oil and gas - what a surprise!

I asked you to;

"promise me that you'll start to use "Butcher of Tiblisi" in casual conversations with your friends, on the phone and in your posts."

"Only if you promise to refer to Putin as the Butcher of the Kremlin in the same circumstances"

Len, you can't use the same name I made up. First of all it has zero ring to it, Four words not three. There's no rhythm to it. Nobody would use it. But the most important thing is, it's the same thing as mine!! That's just copying. That's what a my little brother would do. Look if you can't make up an original nickname for Putin for me to use, one that's any good, that is. Tell you what, I'll make one up for you and show you how easy it is. Might make a headline too, you never know.And I'll use it too but. it will be yours, ok? Here goes. ummm....."Vlad the Merciless, Czar of the East"!..Yeah, I Like it! See the rhythm? Catchy, I think. I will never refer to him as President Putin, or Comrade, or whatever again. "Vlad the Mericless pounds Tibilsi... Again!". Now that's a headline! You promised, remember that.

Mr. Goodman,

Prior to and following the disintegration of the Soviet Union, South Ossetia was part of Georgia. Since Russia has come to realize that it will expand its power base and its wealth through exercising control of Balkan and near Asian (Caspian) oil and gas pipelines, it has been systematically destabilizing Georgia though the patronization and military occupation of South Ossetia.

How would the USA be viewed if we had landed troops in Northern Ireland during the troubles in the 1970’s, offered the Irish Catholics US citizenship, then threatened Great Britain with war if they tried to intervene?

Peacekeepers? Since when has Russia ever involved themselves in the act of peacekeeping? Especially where Russia has had influence and has refused to exercise it to keep the peace?

What about the war of succession in the USA? Should Abe Lincoln be branded a war criminal in history books?

I think Saakashvili suffers from an age old problem in the region, that of bringing a knife to a gun fight. I said he should be censured for the bombing of civilian territory in South Ossetia. What he did was wrong, and decidedly an overreaction to, what was for him, a no-win situation, although I can understand his anger and frustration.

To brand Saakashvili a war criminal is ridiculous and sheer hypocrisy, especially for those Russophiles who looked the other way as Putin and his sycophants, as well as those before him have carried out; cold blooded murder, on their soil as well as on other country's, systematic genocide, and military occupation where it benefitted the bottom line, and especially the winter-time shutoff of heating oil and gas supplies to areas like the Ukraine, when political expediency demanded that the population of a sovereign country should freeze, until they saw things Moscow's way.

I think a bit of perspective is in order.

********************************************************

http://www.larouchepub.com/pr/1999/storm_v..._pr_991203.html


EIR Releases 'Storm Over Asia' Video,
Hosted by Lyndon LaRouche

"Our fundamental interest as a republic, is to bring forth on this planet the hegemony of a community of sovereign nation-states, each of which has in common its commitment to the general welfare of its total population, and their posterity. Otherwise, it is not our intent to meddle in the internal affairs of these countries. It is sufficient for us that they are sincerely and seriously dedicated to promote the general welfare, as we understand the notion of the general welfare; and they understand that we as nations must stand together, against those forces of oligarchy, such as the British financial oligarchy, which are our natural enemies."
--Lyndon LaRouche, Storm Over Asia

Executive Intelligence Review magazine is pleased to announce the release of a vital policy report by Founding and Contributing Editor Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr. "Storm Over Asia" is a two-and-a-half-hour video which explores, in depth, the current drift into a new global conflagration, and proposes a new American foreign policy, based on the best traditions of our Founding Fathers, to reverse that otherwise inevitable course towards war and economic ruin.

Mr. LaRouche, who is today one of three leading candidates for the Democratic Party 2000 Presidential nomination, reviews the ongoing crises in the Caucasus region along the southern tier of Russia, in the Indian subcontinent, in Africa, and in Ibero-America, exposing the hideous incompetence and worse, of the U.S. State Department under Madeleine Albright, and the outright geopolitical treachery of the Blair government in Britain. He develops the relationship between the ongoing collapse of the world financial and monetary system and the impulse towards regional, and, eventual global confrontation, drawing on the experiences of the two world wars of the 20th century.

LaRouche reviews his own role, during the period from 1977-1984, in promoting what President Ronald Reagan labeled the Strategic Defense Initiative, and how LaRouche came to the conclusion, by the autumn of 1988, that the Soviet empire was about to collapse and that the prospects for German reunification were immediately on the table. Instead of adopting LaRouche's proposals for a Marshall Plan and Food for Peace approach towards the nations of the collapsing Soviet bloc, British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, U.S. President George Bush, and French President Francois Mitterrand, adopted an anti-German, anti-Russian geopolitical agenda, which led to the industrial collapse of Germany and the wholesale looting of Russia. This folly has led us to the bring of a new strategic confrontation.

To set the proper framework for understanding the current policy crisis and the appropriate solutions, LaRouche reviews the issues that shaped the American Revolution and the development of the idea of a community of principles among perfectly sovereign nation-states--the basis for John Quincy Adams' development of the American system of diplomacy. Later, LaRouche delves into the founding principles of Western Civilization, dating back to the period of the Greek Classics and the early Fathers of the Christian Church, tracing that tradition through the European Renaissance, and into the founding of the colonies in North America.

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So do you now plan on spamming all threads with the barely relevant pronouncements of that lunatic and his sycophants?

Barely relevant? LaRouche issued his video "Storm over Asia" in 1999. LaRouche detailed in 1999 the forces involved in the planned breakup of Russia. The problem with LaRouche is that he is always so far ahead of everybody else.

Barely relevant? You dont know how stupid that comment is.

I’m not sure what you are babbling about, except for Chechnya and perhaps a few other small districts wanting to succeed there is no indication Russia is in the process of breaking up. Perhaps you meant the break-up of the Warsaw Pact or USSR but like the separatist movement in Chechnya this was old news in 1999. The page claims he predicted the break up of the USSR in 1988 but this was hardly prophetic since some of the Soviet bloc countries and Soviet republics were already on the road to independence.

I really have no interest in getting into an off topic debate with a misinformed Larouche cultist.

You have no interest in debating a LaRouche cultist? This coming from a GG Allin cultist! Or did you just promote that filth to the kiddies for a profit?

You seem to underestimate the intelligence of the people who read this forum. My association with GG might have been relevant if we were discussing music or cultural mores etc.Obviously if you had anything of substance to say you wouldn’t have resorted to a lame and desperate ad hom. Whether or not you approve of someone I hung out with 15 - 20 years ago doesn’t change the facts that:

- the LaRouche ad you posted had little if any relevance to the topic of this thread

- you demonstrated a marked ignorance of the subject matter

• I didn’t know you were such a prude!
• And most of the shows were for people old enough to drink.
• Yeah I made buckets of money on the GG tours! He was almost as big as Nirvana.

Music. what does GG Allin have to do with music? More importantly it goes to the axiomatic assumptions that drive your political views. How could anyone in there right mind promote the filth and bestial outlook expressed by this satanic piece of garbage? Then again I take it you are also a fan of the genocidal Bertrand Russell? Russell and GG have alot in common.
You made buckets of money feeding your youthful audience some of GG's urine and feces? Now that is art at in it's highest form.


You state that LaRouche's ad had nothing to do with this topic? How is it that LaRouche identified the forces waging war against Russia way back in 1999? Perhaps if the current US President had watched the video he wouldnt have been so stupid as to condemn Putin for his actions. Actions that probably prevented WWIII.

And that's what this war action by Georgia was intended to do; spread war around the region leading to the destruction of nation states all while ulitmately pitting Russia against the United States in a nuclear show down.

Russell the peace and disarmament activist “genocidal”, that’s a strange theory, did you get that from your guru as well. Is your entire worldview shaped by him? Are you capable of independent thought? Disprove my assumption that you are a LaRouche cultist. Tell us one issue on which you disagree with him.



I think you were the only person who didn’t figure out that was sarcastic, no he wasn’t really almost as big as Nirvana.



We can be thankful that though the US electorate was stupid/crazy enough to elect Nixon, Reagan, Bush jr (sorta) and perhaps is stupid/crazy enough to elect McCainiac president they don’t seem to be stupid/crazy enough to elect LaRouche or one of sycophants



So a local conflict, a country smaller (in size and population) than Ireland using military force to quell separatists in a province smaller (in size and population) than Trinidad and Tobago “probably” would have developed in to WWIII but for the intervention of one of the world’s superpowers? What a delightfully bizarre theory, did you get that from your messsiah inasnum?



I don’t presume any evidence in support of this domino to Dr.Strangelove “theory” will be forthcoming? And no I won’t consider the undocumented claims of Il Manico or his disciples evidence. You don’t think Russia had any role in fomenting the tensions in the region? You think Russia would sit idly by as pipelines through Georgia destroyed its energy dominance over Europe? The loss of said monopoly which would cost it both millions of dollars and political power? Power that it used to ‘punish’ countries like the Ukraine and Czech Republic (the latter ‘coincidentally’ only a few weeks before the war). It just another coincidence that South Ossetia is very close to those pipelines? Just another coincidence they attacked one of the main pipelines with missiles?* I though conspiracy theorists didn’t believe in coincidence!

*http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2534767/Georgia-Russia-targets-key-oil-pipeline-with-over-50-missiles.html

In the September 1946 issue of Bulletin of Atomic Scientist "peace nick" Betrand Russell called for a first strike nuclear attack against the Soviet Union. Once the Soviets developed nuclear weapons of their own he changed his colors to that of a peacenick. Russell was the key figure in devloping the policy of Mutually Assured Destruction; an evil policy that controlled the world from 1945-1991 period. These nuclear agreements were developed and agreed upon at Bertrand Russell's 1950's Pugwash Conferences.
Russell was also a key figure in the Cuban Missiles Crisis. Russell sent JFK a series of cables calling him a "mad man" and a "mass murderer". You can access these Russell/Kennedy cables from the JFK library in Boston. But Bertrand Russell was no "fan" of John F. Kennedy and/or the United States.

I got a laugh reading your challenge. If I understand your barking orders I am to disprove your theory that I am a LaRouche cultist?
Do you think I care about your opinion?

I notice you did not wish to debate your involvement with GG Allin. I dont blame you. There is nothing more disgusting and bestial than what you were involved in, with the targeting young people for this kind of satanic perversion. And you probably called it "popular entertainment"! I hope you didnt develop a habit for drinking urine?

PS- Comparing size and population as a means to understanding the recent Georgia/Russia crisis is really not bright.
If you've read anything that Russian President Putin has publicly said in the last few days, then you'd know that he blamed the United States for the entire affair. And while I am at it, have you compared the size/population of Georgia to say "Cuba"? Now that was just a small island off the shore of Florida and yet it was the trigger mechanism to a near nuclear showdown between the Soviets and the USA in 1962.

The promoter of GG Allin! The insane still walk among us. They may have cleaned up and changed their wardrobe but underneath it all they are still just as insane.

I don’t suppose you are going to offer any evidence in support of these claims? Obviously the Norwegian Nobel Committee disagreed with your assessment of the Pugwash Conferences because they awarded them the 1995 Nobel Peace Prize “for their efforts to diminish the part played by nuclear arms in international politics and in the longer run to eliminate such arms.”

http://nobelprizes.com/nobel/peace/1995b.html



Evasion noted, obviously you care what I or at least people reading this thread think or you wouldn't reply. Presumably if you could cite a single issue on which you disagreed with your messiah you would have mentioned it. Do you know any kids in the LaRouche Youth Movement? Why does that name ring some bells?



I make no apologies for my friendship with GG or my role in organizing his tours. Obviously if I were ashamed of it I wouldn’t have put it in my bio. He pissed off uptight people and it appears he still does. It is as totally irrelevant to the discussion as you admiration for Tom Petty.





Then show how dumb I am by explaining your theory that a local conflict in a small country would have developed into WW3 but for the interference of a superpower.



Well if Putin says it, it must be true! If you followed this and the other threads here you’d know that I was critical of Bush’s reactions to the crisis - none of this is relevant to your risible WW3 theory though.



Cuba is actually larger and far more populous than Georgia. But that isn’t relevant because the crisis was triggered by the Soviets deployment nuclear warhead equipped ballistic missiles and bombers capable of striking US targets there rather than the central government trying to put down rebellion in a separatist enclave.



You really do love ad homs don’t you!

Russia Today, August 21, 2008

http://www.russiatoday.com/guests/video/1478

What exactly are the undocumented claims of LaRaouche supposed to prove? I don’t think anyone here but you takes what he says as gospel. His pronouncements are nonsense.

He claimed the war was an attempt to “encircle” “surround” and “crush” Russia etc. LOL Georgia with it’s relatively tiny military unable even to defend it’s own territory was as much of a threat to Russia as a rocker thrower is to a tank.

He also claimed that the US “has no particular interest” in the Caucuses and obvious un truth which I don’t know is due to him being deceptive, ignorant or willfully blind, see my earlier posts about the pipelines.

He also claims that the British and Soros are behind the crisis and that Soros is a “British national” the man has a weird tick in his brain – Jewish financiers and/or the British almost all (if not all) world problems. Soros is not a British national he was born in Hungary in 1930, moved to London in 1947 then to NYC in 1956 (52 years ago) and became a US citizen in 1961 (47 years ago).

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/08/22/Worldand...lionaire_.shtml

Funny the way they present LaRouche one would think he was an important figure in the US but when he runs for President he only gets about 2% of the vote in the primaries of his chosen party.

Still waiting for you to explain how the Georgian incursion into South Ossetia would have led to WW3 but for Russia’s counter attack.

You are so dense. How can you make the claim that I'm the only person that takes LaRouche serious, when here he is being nterviewed on Russian television! Your claim is shot down right there.

I wonder why "Russia Today" took the trouble to interview LaRouche? Why would their media allow Lyndon LaRouche to express his viewpoint? Apparently they thought what he had to say was important.
You should stick to promoting Satan and his first amendment rights.

Ideally I would only end up engaging polite, intelligent, well informed people on this and other forums. This world is of course a far from perfect one, so I have on occasion debated with people who were rude because they were smart and/or well informed about the subject on other occasions I discussed a topics with people who weren’t very smart or knowledgeable about the subject because they were polite.

You on the other hand are obnoxious, dimwitted and continuously have demonstrated your ignorance concerning just about every topic we’ve discussed from constitutional law (I think your friend Dawn should be able to set you straight) to the situation in the Caucuses to GG. You even seem to have difficulty understanding the word “here”* (a 1st grade teacher should be able to help you with that). The only thing you seem reasonably knowledgeable are the pronouncements of your guru. Therefore I will no longer waste my time responding to your rubbish.

For anyone interested another example of the giant “conspiracy” to defame the only man who can save the world. I imagine all the direct quotes like the direct quotes in various other exposes are all fabricated. LOL

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Oct20.html

* As is “I don’t think anyone HERE but you takes what he says as gospel.”(See above)
Here = this forum not planet earth.

For a "bloke" who doesn't mind promoting satanic rituals for our youth you sure are sensitive. Imagine, you poor little fellow having to deal with someone as dimwitted as me. "It's all just a bunch of rubbish" isnt it Lenny? Or as GG might say "eat s#it" and "die"!

And satans little helper Lenny Colby went and found himself another slander piece. And lucky for us he is placing it right "here"(please note when I write "here" I literally mean "here" and no where else.) on our forum for all of us "here" to read.

Now back to more civilised dialogue between real intellectuals that understand the literal meaning of words. Betrand Russell would be smiling if he could see this.