At 1:40 PM, an hour and ten minutes after the assassination, Dallas Secret Service Agent Robert A. Steuart, who was assigned to the Trade Mart that day, had the name of a suspect in the shooting, and requested clerk in the Dallas Secret Service office Lillian Rhyan to call the New Orleans office and ask them to make some discreet inquiries about this suspect - Jack W. Martin, of Goldonna, Louisiana.

The story is reported at the bottom of a report on:
List of books obtained by Lee Harvey Oswald form New Orleans Public Library.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=336237

DETAILS OF INVESTIGATION

As the document reads:

"At 1:40 P.M. on November 22, 1963, reporting agent received a long distance telephone call from Clerk Lillian L. Rhyan, of our Dallas office, who stated that she was calling at the request of SA Robert A. Steuart, Dallas, regarding an individual named Jack Martin, Route 1, Goldonna, La., on whom SA Steuart desired discreet inquiries conducted. At that time Clerk Rhyan indicated that she did not have any information regarding the said Jack Martin and did not know what connection, if any, he might have had with the shooting of President John F. Kennedy that same date at Dallas."

Report Made By Anthony E. Gerrett
Approved John W. Rice 12-4-63 CD 87

"At 2:06 P.M., November 22, 1963, Clerk Rhyan again called reporting agent, advising that at that time it was thought that possibly Jack Martin may have been the assassin of President Kennedy. She could furnish no information regarding Jack Martin’s description or background, knowing only that his address was reported at Route 1, Goldonna, La., and that it was desired that discreet inquiries regarding Martin be conducted at Goldonna at once. "

"Reporting agent immediately telephoned SAIC John W. Rice, who happened to be on an official road trip to Shreveport and vicinity, in the northwest section of Louisiana, approximately 325 miles from New Orleans, Goldonna being located in Nesachitoches Parish in the northwest section of Louisiana."

"SAIC Rice was located at the Office of Special Investigations, Barksdale Air Force Base, near Shreveport, and was informed of the above-mentioned request that discreet inquiries be conducted at once at Goldonna, La., regarding Jack Martin. It was explained to SAIC Rice that it was desired that the results of the investigation at Goldonna be telephoned to our Dallas office."

"At approximately 9:30 P.M. on November 22, 1963, reporting agent received a telephone call at his residence from SAIC Rice, who was calling from Natchitoches, La. SAIC Rice stated that he had conducted discreet inquiries at Goldonna, La., regarding Jack Martin and had telephoned the results to SA Robert A. Steuart, Dallas, that during this telephone conversation SA Steuart furnished the following information regarding LEE HARVEY OSWALD, who had been arrested at Dallas for having fired the shots which killed President Kennedy……."

Mary Ferrell's files show:

MARTIN, JACK W.
CD 87 SS 450, pp. 1-2; CD 87 SS 451, pp. 1-2

"A suspect in the assassination PRIOR to the arrest of LHO on 11/22/63. Son of Ben and Thelma Martin, Goldonna, La. On 11/22/63: white/male"

Mary's
Comments:

"A suspect in assassination PRIOR to arrest of LHO on 11/22/63. Son of Ben and Thelma Martin, Goldonna, LA. On 11/22/63: white/male, 25-30, 5' 6", 150 lbs., dark eyes, dark hair, olive complexion, stocky. He has wanted to be a preacher. Belonged to a religious cult. Had been in Texas recently. Secret Service checked on him at Goldonna, LA, and at Natchitoches, LA, 11/22/63 because of remarks he made in Dallas following assassination. Secret Service Agent John W. Rice put out APB on Martin."

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=12

Document Appendix to Oswald in New Orleans (by Harold Weisberg)

Special Agent in Charge of New Orleans office of the Secret Service, John W. Rice reported,
"....I immediately proceeded to Goldonna, Louisiana, arriving at approximately 5:00 PM, and interviewed Mrs. Irena McGee, Postmaster, Mr. G. C. Quarles, Rural Carrier, and Millie xxxsier, Constable and Deputy Sheriff, all of whom are well acquainted with Jack W. Martin, son of Ben and Thelma Martin, Route 1, Box 4, Goldonna."

"The Martin family has resided in this area for a great many years. The family is poor and Ben Martin is a worker in the logging business in this backroads community. Jack W. Martin reportedly grew up in the community and did not finish high school. For serveral yeras the subject has been traveling around the country, and apparently has been connected with an unidentified religious cult. It has been rumored, according to Mr. Quarles, that Martin desires to become a preacher."

What we don't know is how or why SA Steuart, at Dallas, determined within an hour of the assassination that Jack W. Martin was a suspect, and by 2 PM considered him a shooter.

There is speculation that Martin may have said something AFTER the assassination, that called attention to him, but there's no official report or news report, apparently, that explains what it is all about.

By 9:30 PM, when SAIC Rice filed his phoned in report on Jack W. Martin to Steuart in Dallas, they were no longer interested in Martin but were interested in Lee Harvey Oswald, and his associations in New Orleans, where Jack S. Martin was calling attention to the relationship between Oswald, Guy Bannister and David Ferrie.

As Wesiberg notes at the bottom of his copy of the Rice's report:

"Barren as the official record is on why Jack Martin was an immediate suspect, it is just as disgraceful that the file documents relating to this suppressed aspect of the assassination investigation are so illegible. Neither is indicative of official desire to make everything pertinent to the assassination and its investigation publicly available. Combined, they justify suspicion of a contrary official intent."

Referring to the other, more well known Jack Martin, not the subject of this report, Wesiberg wrote: "...The Jack Martin in these reports was an immediate suspect: 'may have been the assassin'. Once Oswald was arrested, all interest in this Jack Martin disappeared. The matter is ignored in the Report and in the testimony."

Of course, someone as important as the Special Agent In Charge of the New Orleans Secret Service office John W. Rice was never called to testify before the Warren Commission and has never been interviewed about the assassination.

It would be nice to know what SPIC NO SS John W. Rice was doing on official business at the Special Investigations office at Barksdale AFB in Shreveport, La., and whether he was investigating the Rose Cheramie allegations, or another possible threat to the life of the president.

SA Robert Steuart also managed to avoid being properly interviewed, but one writer got him to talk without attribution, as Vince Palmara notes.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:9e6rek...=clnk&gl=us

Vince wrote: "One final clue to both the mystery of ..... November 22 may come from the statements of former Dallas agent Robert A. Steuart, as revealed in Bill Sloan's 1993 work, (JFK- Breaking the Silence pp 1-5). Although the agent who spoke to Sloan was unnamed in the book, Sloan confirmed to me the agent's identity based on my firm conviction that this agent HAD to have been Steuart. Why? Because, as I told Sloan, the agent used the identical language with me during my two "attempted" interviews with him in 1992 and 1993; in any event, Sloan confirmed my suspicions. So, just what did Steuart say to Sloan (and me)?"

"Sworn to absolute secrecy about the 'Kennedy thing,' Steuart went on to say, 'I can't talk about it...There are so many things I could tell you, but I just can't... I can't tell you anything... I'd like to, but I can't.... It was a very heavy deal, and they would know. Someone would know. It's...too dangerous, even now.'"

There should be more information on John W. Martin, but I haven't been able to find it.

(Thanks to Robert Howard for assistance on this)

More on Jack W. Martin from original report of SAIC John W. Rice:

Page 2
00-2-34,030
12-4-63

"Constable Frazier said that apparently Martin had never been in any trouble
in Goldonna or vicinity, but that he did leave the area about 8 or 10 years
ago and was gone for several years. He said he heard that he was either in
the armed forces or possibly in prison in another state."

"Martin reportedly has never married, and so far as is known he has never been
gainfully employed. He has communicated with his parents by mail from various
places throughout the country, and always uses a general delivery address. He
reportedly has been in Massachusetts, New Jersey, California, Texas, and other
states."

"Constable Frazer said he last saw Martin in Goldonna approximately three or
four weeks ago. Rural Carrier Quarles said that he believed that Martin's
either had been writing to him in Texas, city unrecalled, recently."

"All of the persons interviewed indicated that Martin is quiet and dos not have
any close friends in the area. He apparently does not hunt or fish, and is not
interested in sports. There was no indication that he had a gun or rifle.
He is said to be neat in appearance and rather soft spoken."

"Constable Frazier said that a brother, Bobbie Martin, age about 19 years, has
been a problem in the community."

"Jack W. Martin was described as follows: white; male; 25-30, 5-6 to 5-8; 150; dark eyes, dark hair; olive complexion; stocky build."

"At Natchitachee, Louisiana, inquiries were made at Sheriff's Office, and no
record of Jack W. Martin was located."

"At approximately 9:00 PM on 11/22/63 I contacted SA Robert A. Steuart, Dallas,
by telephone from Natchitoches, Louisiana, furnishing him with the results of the
investigation. SA Steuart advised that Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested in
Dallas in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy. He said that
Oswald, who was connected with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans,
had filed change of address from Dallas to 4907 Magazine Street, New Orleans on
on 5/15/63; that he again rented a box in Dallas on 11/2/63. SA Steuart requested
further investigation in New Orleans."

"He also advised that Jack Martin had been previously considered a
possible suspect due to suspicious remarks which he had made in
Dallas following the assassination of the President."

"At 9:30 PM on 11/22/63 I contacted SA Garrets by telephone at his residence in
New Orleans and requested that he and SA Vial conduct immediate investigation
relative to Oswald's activities in New Orleans...."

THERE HAS GOT TO BE MORE TO THIS STORY.

Unless there is more to the story than what I ascertained, in the sense that there is a separate person named Jack W. Martin, I personally believe the middle initial was a mistake and that the Jack Martin cited is the same person as Jack S. Martin who is said to have been pistol whipped by Guy Bannister. The reason being is that the latter was allegedly also known as "Bishop John Chrysostom Martin," see the thread
Religious Groups and The JFK Assassination.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...pic=8289&hl

Just for the record:



http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=611



http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0449a.htm

Robert wrote:

Unless there is more to the story than what I ascertained, in the sense that there is a separate person named Jack W. Martin, I personally believe the middle initial was a mistake and that the Jack Martin cited is the same person as Jack S. Martin who is said to have been pistol whipped by Guy Bannister. The reason being is that the latter was allegedly also known as "Bishop John Chrysostom Martin," see the thread
Religious Groups and The JFK Assassination.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...pic=8289&hl

Hey Robert,

Thanks, but I think it is apparent that they are two different individuals,
one born in Phoenix in 1915 and the other in Goldenna, LA circa 1930-35.

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100whomar.html

"Jack S. Martin was born Edward Stewart Suggs on July 1,
1915, in Phoenix, Arizona. Suggs served in the Army during
WWII, and later moved to California, where he
unsuccessfully tried to become a police officer in LA and San
Diego."

Jack S. (Suggs) Martin was in New Orleans fistacuffing with Bannister at the time
of the assassination, while Jack W. Martin, was in Dallas, saying something
suspicious enough for him to be considered a shooting suspect.

The point is - we know so much about one Jack S. Martin and next to nothing
about Jack W. Martin, an early, if not the first suspect in the assassination,
other than Oswald.

What did he say that made him a suspect?
How did Steuart learn about it?
How did Steuart learn he was from Golenna, LA?
What became of Jack W. Martin?
What did Steuart know that made him paranoid to talk about the assassination?
How come Steuart didn't mention JWM in his reports?

SA Steuart's report for his activities that day, beginning at 7AM, detail his
securing the Trade Mart, then going to Parkland Hospital until the President
was declared dead. He then went to the SS office where he manned the
telephone and coordinated actions of other agents.

Steuart must have heard about Jack W. Martin, and his suspicious remarks AFTER the
assassination, either at the Trade Mart or Hospital, and didn't mention it in his
report, or he learned of Jack W. Martin at the SS office via telephone tip.

I suspect the latter.

The religious cult angle is interesting, and he may have become a minister,
as suggested.

And Thom, I don't understand the connections with your links, can you explain
it to someone who doesn't have it all figured out yet?

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=611

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0449a.htm

Thanks,

BK

The SS report is merely a few pages from that which deals with Jack Martin.

Anyone who has bottered to attempt to follow up on the "Jack Martin" lead should have also found that additional knowledge
relative to the SS assassination re-enactment and filming of December 1963.

"Unless there is more to the story than what I ascertained, in the sense that there is a separate person named Jack W. Martin, I personally believe the middle initial was a mistake "




Anyone who has bottered to attempt to follow up on the "Jack Martin" lead should have also found that additional knowledge
relative to the SS assassination re-enactment and filming of December 1963.



And, they truly should have found James (Jack) W. Martin.
Not that difficult at all to locate one of that name. Perhaps it is merely coincidence that he lived in Arlington and was on the "Textbook Committee" which approved all books utilized within the Dallas area schools.
(And which were received from the TSDB).


Mr. Dolva perhaps will explain the significance of how the "Textbook Committee's" were "stacked". Since the Mississippi Soveriegnty Commission Files contain much on this.

And for Mr. Kelly: You no doubt thought that I made that one up also.

Hey Tom,

Why would I think you made anything up?

I still can't find a connection between Jack Martin and the SS reenactment.

As for your James W. Martin, of Arlington, Tx and the Texas Textbook Committee, it appears that is a development out of the Gilmer-Alkin Act of 1949

http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/comm/tps_han...ed_reforms.html

When LBJ became president, the former teacher threw a lot of money in public education.

There's also this connection: In Texas, Gov. John Connally appointed a Committee on Public School Education in 1965 to prepare a viable long-range plan for national educational leadership. The committee’s report, “To Make Texas A National Leader in Public Education: The Challenge and the Change,” made recommendations to the governor and the legislature in 1969 that would serve as a practical blueprint for Texas to “attain national leadership in educational achievement.” Committee Chair Leon Jaworski said in the report, “We propose the operating units of the system be strengthened, given the resources and authority to make and implement broad educational policy decisions, and be held accountable for the results of those decisions through a continuing State program of evaluation. We believe this is the only practical way to stay abreast of the educational revolution now in progress.”

They even named the Arlington, Texas High School after Mr. James White Martin, controversial because up until that time they named Texas schools after heroes, and apparently Mr. Martin wasn't one.

I don't see any associations with Jack Martin, or the TSBD, although Mr. James W. Martin must have approved the books that were used at the schools and fetched and shipped by Oswald.

Looks like another Wild Goose Chase.

BK

Jack W. Martin

http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi

==========================================

John W. Martin (common nickname "Jack")

http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi

==========================================

James W. Martin (commonly nicknamed "Jim" and/or "Jimmy", sometimes nicknamed "Jack")

http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi

==========================================


As you were informed in the sent message, James W. Martin, of whom Martin High School in Arlington, TX is named after, is the only one to whom I have found and potential direct connection.

And that simply lies within the "coincidental" aspects of name; place of residence; and association to issued textbooks.

That you have found nothing (anywhere of my knowledge) is not that surprising, especially when one considers that you have obviousy been looking for some "Great" sniper to accomplish the relatively simple shooting feat which occurred in Dallas on 11/22/63.



Yeah! It is all realtively simple to find when someone else takes the time to research, explain, and then point it out.

Glad we have you here Tom, to keep all of us misinformed individuals in line.
Your comments seem to imply that there is something illogical in running down information on Jack W Martin, in light of the information so far submitted, it would be illogical not to, but it's nice to know where you stand.
Regarding Jack W Martin as a suspect, I agree in light of what little is known, he should be a suspect; but if you go to NARA and enter Jack W Martin, you will find O hits, if you enter Jack Martin you get 200, and you might decide that if there is something to it, then why do practically all 200 hits reference Jack S Martin or Jack J Martin or both......There is one of those 200 documents that cites a Computer Run on “Jack Martin” see below
The Index to Warren Commission Document 75 has, what I consider to be as close to a JFK Assassination Index as I have seen outside of NARA and there is no Jack W Martin indicated, the two Jack Martin’s with no middle initial, are also Jack S Martin BTW.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=765
http://www.nara.gov/cgi-bin/starfinder/17621/jfksnew.txt
104-10117-10175
104-10117-10176

In the fall of 1963 there was a Jack W Martin residing at 1439 Hudspeth LA 8-0093, it is not known if this person was the same person as the Jack W Martin mentioned in CD 87, cited by Harold Weisberg. It would come to me a surprise if it were, as he would have seemingly been difficult to intentionally overlook. What is known is that less than one year after the assassination of President Kennedy, a Kenneth Bruce Martin was convicted of the murders of Mr and Mrs Lenferd Strickland at Mountain Creek Lake in Dallas, in a case which featured Will Fritz, and D.A William Alexander. [1] Martin had been arrested previously in Casmden, N.J. the previous January for aggravated assault on his wife, as well as threatening to kill her. His case was also marked by being granted a hearing after appealing his conviction due to the effect a search warrant used to convict him was later thrown out of court.
1 See “Martin Given Death Penalty” Dallas Morning News 10-17-1964.

There's a Camden connection! My hometown. A dead end.

Tom Pervis has also sent me on two Wild Goose chases regarding Martin, saying there is a connection with the SS Reenactment, nothing there as far as I can tell, and the James Martin textbook connection, which I find hard to link up with anything worthwhile.

BK

No wonder you were confused and lost in regards to the "Great Houma Arms Raid".

1. It remains "Purvis" or, CPT Pervert in event that one wishes to addres by my old SF handle.

2. Tom gave you the name of ONE & ONLY ONE Jack W. Martin as the only one ever found with any potential connection.
That being an Arlington resident who was also a member of the "Textbook Committee" which approved all school textbooks utilized within the Public School System.

3. Tom neither gave you, nor stated anything relative to a "Jack W. Martin" and the SS assassination re-enactment.
Guess that not unlike the "Great Houma Arms Raid", you had to add a little to the story in order to further it's credibility.


Tom Pervis has also sent me on two Wild Goose chases

You were chasing Wild Geese and/or mythological creatures long before I came into the scene.
Guess that you have to blame being "completely lost" on someone!


Got anymore of "that original research" which you would like to share with the world Bill????

Hey Tom,

I know I've been down a lot of dead end alleys, and chased my share of Wild Geese, but as a source of interesting and reliable information in the past I thought there was an answer to your riddles. Apparently not.

I just wasted time going back to get this dead goose just to make sure I wasn't nuts.

BK

Did Tom write this?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...show=0&st=0 - entry167331

The SS report is merely a few pages from that which deals with Jack Martin.

Anyone who has bottered to attempt to follow up on the "Jack Martin" lead should have also found that additional knowledge relative to the SS assassination re-enactment and filming of December 1963.

Sounds like Tom to me.

And yes, Tom I have plenty of original and I think important research, but you won't see it posted on the internet because of idiots who call up witnesses and harras them.

I thought you were on to something with the Gus J. LaBarre at 710 Pere Marquette.

Also, would you know if there's any connection between the Mancusco girl who married Gordon Novel and went on the Houma raid and Mancusco the cop?

Thanks,

BK

I have it on pretty good authority that Jack W. Martin was associated with the Holy Ghost Temple Church, as I do not like to assume, I will not say this is a church in Goldonna, Louisiana, but it certainly is a possibility......

http://www.nara.gov/cgi-bin/starfinder/14668/jfksnew.txt
AGENCY : HSCA
RECORD NUMBER : 180-10070-10331
RECORDS SERIES : NUMBERED FILES
AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 008269 (PT. 17)

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : NEW ORLEANS DISTRICT ATTORNEY
FROM : SCIAMBRA, ANDREW
TO : GARRISON, JIM
TITLE : INVESTIGATION
DATE : 09/11/1967
PAGES : 1
DOCUMENT TYPE : MEMORANDUM
SUBJECTS : HOLY GHOST TEMPLE CHURCH; GOLDONNA, LA; GARRISON;
INVESTIGATION
CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED
RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL
CURRENT STATUS : OPEN
DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 07/16/1993
COMMENTS : Folder 1 of 2. Box 152.

Jack S. (Suggs) Martin was in New Orleans fistacuffing with Bannister at the time
of the assassination, while Jack W. Martin, was in Dallas, saying something
suspicious enough for him to be considered a shooting suspect. ??? thank you

John: What does the F.U. stand for? Since I made the last post before you, you might see why I am curious.
By the way, whats the deal with your photo avatar and Belivaqua's, I noticed for awhile there it seemed like you and Belivacqua started looking like the Bobsie Twins, and now your avatar is gone?
F.U. huh......

Don't worry Robert, it's not for you.
Sorry, I wasn't thinking of that. I found that in the setup options one can see up to 40 posts in one window, as opposed to the default, and I've been pondering that one a while on the backburner. Seeing it again... do I really need to go on?

''Jack S. ... at the time of the assasination. ...''

My question is ''was he''? If so Oliver Stone has let artistic licence an inordinate ammount of leeway.
If you're right then, thank you.

(I'm on strike btw, that's all. Don't take it personal.)

I did happen, to find an additional report concerning Jack W Martin.....
It is in a mammoth HSCA Administrative Folder Secret Service.
See below.....
ADMIN FOLDER-B12: HSCA ADMINISTRATIVE FOLDER, SECRET SERVICE REPORTS, LHO 12/13/63......385 Pages
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...c.do?docId=9893
The pertinent section reads:
At 2:06 PM November 22, 1963 Clerk Rhyan again called reporting agent advising that at that time it was thought that Jack Martin may have been the assassin of President Kennedy.
She could furnish no information regarding Jack Martin’s description or background knowing only that his address was reported as Route 1, Goldonna, Louisiana, and that it was desired that discreet inquiries regarding Martin be conducted at Goldonna at once. Reporting agent immediately telephoned SAIC John Rice who happened to be on an official raod trip to Shreveport and vicinity, in the northwest section of Louisiana, approximately 325 miles from New Orleans. Goldonna being located in Natchitoches Parish in the northwest section of Louisiana.
SAIC Rice was located at the Office of Special Investigations Barksdale Air Force Base, near Shreveport, Louisiana, and was informed of the above mentioned request that discreet inquiries regarding Martin be conducted and the results be telephoned to our office in Dallas, Texas had telephoned the that Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested in Dallas, Texas for having fired the shots that killed President Kennedy......


I believe it would be accurate to say that given the assassination of President Kennedy was, in my estimation, the most significant event of the Cold War, and that though Oswald was tried....convicted, in the media at least, and executed by Jack Ruby for being the assassin of President Kennedy, it borders on sacrilige, that no one knows squat about the elusive Jack W. Martin....Does that not say something about the subject in general.....
At the very least it would seem a historical responsibility to ascertain why and what happened in the immediate aftermath of the assassination, that led the Secret Service to be making a "discreet inquiry" regarding him.
For that matter, what in the devil is one to make of the expression discreet inquiry concerning someone, who, at that time was being speculated as the ersatz possible assassin of President Kennedy.
The whole matter stinks to high heavens....irrespective of Oswald's guilt or innocence. Another issue relative to the name Martin in general, is that there are a host of persons named Martin who figure prominently in the legacy of the Kennedy assassination, although there is no doubt a partial explanation for that fact is that very simply the Surname Martin is very common, at the same time, there were Martin's who did everything from help represent Marina Oswald legally to being involved in cashing the checks Oswald received when living in New Orleans, while the FBI and the Secret Service both stand as poor examples in the area of running down leads and following through with them, Jack W. Martin strikes me as being one of those examples.
Considering that there was a component of the assassination that involved the Minutemen, John Birch Society and somewhat bizarre religous groups, in which Jack W Martin of Goldonna, La. may have been a part of concerning the latter, it might behoove those who have an interest in this topic to ask this question.
If Jack W Martin was irrelevant to the assassination, why is there so little information about him in the files........




It is pretty much the same as the document in CD 87, except that it substitute's the words

Info posted in a family tree @ ancestry.com by another member....(it included the burial info I verified above.)
Parents were Ben. F and Thelma Martin (I have 1930 census image, but it lists only child of this couple as "William", age
1 yr. and 6/12 months on April 11. 1930, so October, 1928 birth date is a match.)
Only source for middle name. "Wilburn" and brother, "Bobby Ray". is from the Ancestry.com member's family tree info,
but match to info in Bill's post, quoted above, is quite close, even Bobby's age, 19 in 1963. if born in 1944.:

Jack Wilburn Martin
1928
7 Oct
Birth
West Monroe, Ouachita, Louisiana USA

Death Certificate
d. 2 Apr 2002 Minneapolis, Hennepin, Minnesota File #:2002-MN-014126

Military
AS US Navy WW II Start date 07 Nov 1945 end date 06 Oct 1947


Brother:
#

* Bobby Ray Martin
* Birth
o 6 FEB 1944
o in Louisiana USA

* Death
o 11 NOV 1977
o in Louisiana USA
Burial
Yankee Springs Cemetery, Winn Parish, LA.

Bobby Ray's and his mother, Thelma's cemetery listings can be viewed here:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?p...id=2242409&

And.....I just found this:

I think an even more interesting question is, What was Agent Rice doing in Shreveport during this crucial time?

-Bill O

At 2:00 pm November, 22, 1963, Rice was at OSI, Barksdale AFB, according to the documents. Then and now, OSI and SS are one big happy family. With such impressive depth and breadth, how did SS/OSI still manage to lose tne President to gunshots fired at his (out of security protocol, due to it's slow forward speed at the time, and unsecured windows above in multi story buildings along the motorcade route.) motorcade?

Congratulations Tom, that's a great find. And very thorough....Looks like you the house genealogist, I have a list.......
But seriously, there are a myriad of potential names, that if even a few turned out to be real familial linkages would blow people away. This is a great find.....
Re the above The Warren Commission reflects that a Denver Lee Cheek was overheard making comments that led a telephone operator to contact the FBI. There was a noticeable lack of information ie ethnicity on the FBI Report when he was interviewed twice......I have often wondered if Denver Lee Cheek was related to Bertha Cheek whose sister was Earlene Roberts and who, was incidentally, the person who called Earlene Roberts to tell her that JFK was killed in approximately the same time period that Lee Oswald walked in the door after leaving the TSBD. My suspicions are further compounded by the fact that there is at least one document related to Bertha Cheek that is still postponed in full.
Suffice to say that if there was a blood relationship, it would be significant....
Again thanks

You are welcome, Robert, and thank you! I've replied to the Bertha Cheek portion of you post here:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=173679

Now that we know the "W" in Jack W Martin is for the name "Wilburn" (Apparently Wilburn is the middle name listed on Jack Martin's 2002 death cetificate.)
....it it just a coincidence that WW Litchfield II is also "Wilburn"?
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=110

Litchfield used aliases, but he is described as being nearly a foot taller than Jack W. Martin (6 ft. 4 inches, vs. 5 ft. 6 inches to possibly 5 ft. 8 inches tall.), so if there is a connection, it is not a physical impersonation by Jack.

Denver Lee Cheek's obit....he sure had a big family, but I don't expect we will find a link to Bertha Bogle Cheek:

In the years I have spent researching the assassination of JFK, I have delved into many deaths that occurred prior to the assassination, that had overtones of "more than what meets the eye."
Senator Robert Samuel Kerr of Oklahoma is one of those examples, his death took place on January 1, 1963
See
http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodi...l?index=K000144
although such things are the laughing stock of the Bugliosi/Fuhrman/Posner crowd. Kerr's death, although nothing indicates there was anything suspicious about it, does appear compelling in light of the interest in the Suite 8-F Group, which among its proponents is one name familiar to anyone who has ever heard of the Education Forum......General Walker seemed to enjoy speaking of this area as indicated in my thread Of Lone Nut's, Lawyers and Psychiatrists from which the following is taken
There were indeed, several unexpected twist's and turns in Walker's Warren Commission Testimony. Among other things the theme of Walker's testimony, at times seemed like a shell game, where what is being discussed "off the record" is arguably more interesting that what the court stenographer is taking down on paper. Case in point? Well, in his testimony, General Walker and Mr. Liebeler are discussing the attempt on Mr. Walker's life which took place on April 10th, 1963. William McEwan Duff is the prime topic at this point as he had been "asked to leave" the Walker headquarters while Edwin Walker was away traveling.
Liebeler: Do you have any basis for believing there was any connection between Duff and Oswald?
Walker: None at all.

The conversation turns to Mr. Coleman, a witness to the Walker shooting, the description is deceiving, in the sense that Mr Coleman didn't witness the actual shooting, but saw two individuals in a car leaving after hearing the shot's fired. What is equally misleading is that Mr. Coleman was fifteen years old.
At this point in Walker's testimony, there is an "off the record" discussion. When testimony is resumed there is something of a flap between Walker and Liebeler, when Liebeler asks Walker if he has attempted to contact Mr. Coleman.
Walker's response is to insinuate that the Commission was instructed not to bring up the subject of the April 10th "shooting," a charge Liebeler categorically rejects.
Walker mentions that, Oswald and Jack Ruby had opened PO Boxes where mail could be sent somewhere other than their residence's, which made Wesley Liebeler inquire as to whether Mr Walker was alluding to a conspiratorial association between the two. At which point Walker delves into subjects ranging from information which appeared to indicate that Oswald had 'picked up' Jack Ruby's car after it had been worked on, that Oswald had rented an apartment from Jack Ruby's sister and, of course Ruby's shooting of Oswald. Then, Walker goes off into talking about the April 10, 1963 attempt on his life, in the process he mentions the death of a Professor William T. Wolf, who perished in a fire. According to Walker, Professor Wolf was burnt to death in the fire and this happened about 8 day's after the attempt on his life. [it was actually 10 day's later] Walker indicates his death seemed strange in that he was trapped in the fire despite the fact that he was on the first floor, when the fire occurred. Liebeler asks Walker if he thinks his death suggests a conspiracy "between Oswald and Ruby", to which Walker cites a couple of unusual deaths in the same sentence in relation to "what was going on in Dallas."

See Warren Commission Volume 11 Page 433 Hearings General Walker.

Dallas Morning News - April 19, 1963 Fire Death Of Professor Gets Probe

University Park fire investigator's probed Thursday the fire death of William Thompson Wolf, 32 year old history Professor at Southern Methodist University. Wolf's body was found early Thursday in the hallway of his duplex apartment at 6618 Dickens three blocks from the university campus. It marked University Park's first fire fatality for 1963, and only the third for the city in the last seven years. Fire Marshall Fred L. Chambers said the 12:25 A.M. blaze caused about $ 7,000 damage to the front living room and kitchen. He said it appeared Wolf attempted to retrieve some valuables, when he was overcome. Justice of the Peace David L. Johnston ruled death accidental, resulting from burns and fire exposure. [/i]

In the October 5th, 1963 Edition of the Dallas Morning News, Deen's death was carried in a short article with the heading
"Dr. Deen Found dead at home" Dallas Morning News October 5, 1963


The body of Dr. George C. Deen, 30 was found Friday in his apartment on the grounds of Timberlawn Psychiatric Center 4600 Samuell Blvd where he had been a resident physician since 1962. Justice of the Peace W.E. Richburg ordered an autopsy before returning a verdict. Dr. Joe W. King, also a resident physician, told police that when Dr Deen failed to report for duty, he went to his apartment and discovered the body slumped in a chair. Deen was head of a bi-racial group in Dallas known as the Committee for Full Citizenship, under his leadership the Committee this fall urged every eligible Negro student in the Dallas area to apply for admittance to an integrated school. Survivors include his wife; family Dr and Mrs C.C. Deen of Wichita Falls.


Beyond interesting, is the fact that in that time period, George DeMohrenschildt lived five doors down from William Thompson Wolf's residence on Dickens Ave., which is so close to SMU it is practically a "stones throw away from the campus." DeMohrenschildt lived at 6628 Dickens Ave., Wolf as indicate above, lived at 6618 Dickens.
See
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=662...;name=&qty=

As it turns out Deen's death was not the first one at Timberlawn in 1963. In July a patient named Melvin Lehrmann had been discovered dead there.

"Patient Found Shot to Death" July 11, 1963 The article stated
A 35 year old patient at Timberlawn Psychiatric Hospital 4600 Samuell Blvd. was found dead late Tuesday night, shot in the right temple. A .22 caliber pistol was lying near the body.
The victim was Melvin Lehrmann of Ft. Worth. Timberlawn authorities said Lehrmann was last seen at 7:00 P.M. by a nurse and that his body was discovered in a restroom two hours later by another patient. Justice of the Peace W.E. Richburg ruled the death a suicide.

But as it turns out, Timberlawn Psychiatric Hospital had a link to Jack Ruby's Sovereign Club in the person of --- Ann Marie Carlson, aka Mrs Carl William Carlson, who at one time, was a nurse at Timberlawn Psychiatric Hospital. According to Ann Marie, her husband Carl, was a musician who came to Dallas in 1959 and sought employment at Sovereign Club. She said her husband was a former member of Ruby's band, Carl Carlson denied it.


However as of 2009 there is a pre-assassination death that is even more interesting than all of those indicated above, while I reserve judgment on the significance or insignificance of same it concerns, Bruce Carlin, someone named James H Martin, The Hill and Martin Ice Cold Storage Co, and indirectly the US Navy.
While the obituary is taken from the Dallas Morning News of 9/23/63 it is as mary ferrell's website indicates a matter of record that Bruce Carlin called this number before the assassination.......
Funeral Rites Set Tuesday for James H Martin
James H. Martin US Navy Veteran Hill and Martin Ice & Cold Storage Co
this company was mentioned in the WC.
WC Vol 25, pp. 265, 269
Mary's Comments: Bruce Carlin called that number 10/21/63.
also
DMN Mrs Joe Martin 11-10-63 of injuries sustained in an automobile accident probably Joyce Marie Martin 619 N Bishop


Click to view attachment
An excerpt of Bruce Carlin's testimony is included below
Mr. HUBERT. Do you concur in your wife's statement that her request to Ruby on the 24th was not made solely for the purpose of rent?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now did you actually hear her conversation?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And she mentioned rent and groceries?
Mr. CARLIN. It seems to me she said something like rent, groceries and other things, just as you would say everybody else. In other words, we needed money to exist until she could get the rest of her check.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Carlin, the purpose of this call to Mr. Ruby was, as you have stated it, is that correct?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not asked by anyone to make this call, is that correct?
Mr. CARLIN. That's correct, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. No one suggested to you other than your wife, of course, and Ruby himself, that this call be made?
Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Insofar as Ruby suggested it be made, he didn't suggest anytime, as far as you were concerned, that it be made?
Mr. CARLIN. If he said this, I didn't hear him saying it to her on the phone. She did ask me to call, I believe, once, maybe twice, before we found the money was there. Just as soon as we found out----
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how you all decided to call Ruby on the 24th when you did call him?
Mr. CARLIN. Yes. The fact that he said to call, and when we got up, she said that we should call, and then after we heard of Oswald's death, I think just a few minutes, I asked if the money had come in, and they said no, and I think she called and found out later that the money had come in.
Mr. HUBERT. But I mean, the time of the call to Ruby was not planned or fixed in anyway? It was completely gratuitous?
Mr. CARLIN. When we woke up, we called him. We slept late that day.
Mr. HUBERT. No time had been set prior to calling him?
Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Carlin, have you been interviewed by any members of the President's Commission other than myself today?
Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose we did have what might be considered to be a little interview in some conversation in the hall. Do you recall anything that was said in the hall which has not been brought out in your deposition and your wife's deposition which I understand you have adopted with the amendments that have been made? In other words, I am trying to ask you if there is anything that we talked about that hasn't been put in the record, because if it hasn't we ought to get it in there now.
Mr. CARLIN. I understand, but I cannot think of anything.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Jackson, have you anything that you would like to question your client, Mr. Carlin, about, or any statement you wish to make, or observation?
Mr. JACKSON. None.
Mr. HUBERT. That being the case, I think that is all.

On another note regarding those Phase One Castro Assassination plots and the ONI, it is interesting to note that one Robert Morris was stationed at Guam circa 1945 which is of extreme interest for those in the know.
Officer-in-Charge Advance Psychological Warfare Section of CINCPAC [under Commander-in-Chief, Chester Nimitz] on Guam. (20)
In the Pacific, Morris interrogated Japanese POWs and wrote threats on what looked like money which were then dropped by the proverbial planeload on Japanese cities.(21) This was part of Pastel which had been "hastily sketched by Admiral Nimitz' staff in May 1945." Pastel was a pure psyop designed to "convey to the Japanese a false story of where the actual assault landings [as part of a planned invasion of Japan] would occur." It involved, among other things, submarine penetration, leafleting, aerial reconnaissance, photography, bombing and strafing missions, manipulation of radio traffic, media deception, and allowing POWs to escape after letting them witness bogus amphibious training where misleading place names were used.(22)
See ROBERT J MORRIS TIMELINE, PART 1 - 1939-1945
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...pic=8770&hl

END

FWIW,

Throughout its history at 2700 Flora Street, Moorland YMCA served as a meeting place for various
groups. It was “neutral ground” for different church groups to meet with one another. It also was the
meeting place for civil rights advocacy groups45. Much of the civil rights movement in Dallas was based
at Moorland YMCA. In the 1950s, the NAACP held its public meetings at the YMCA, and many
travelers who would come to the area throughout this time and into the 1960s stayed at Moorland when
no other facilities would shelter them46.
In 1963, in the heat of the Civil Rights Movement, the Dallas Committee for Full Citizenship was formed.
Calling for full desegregation of Dallas schools and “dedicated to working for the complete desegregation
of the greater Dallas community through nonviolent methods,” the 50-member group was one of several
that met at Moorland YMCA47. The Committee for Full Citizenship, led by Dr. George Deen, staff
psychiatrist at Timberlawn hospital, went on to participate in statewide demonstrations for integration
http://www.dbdt.com/downloads/2700-Flora-Street.pdf.



DeM had a habit of being "in proximity". When he lived in New York, it was just down the road from the law firm where Robert Morris was working. And then there was that walking tour of Latin America which took him to Guatemala City coinciding with the BoP.

"For that matter, what in the devil is one to make of the expression discreet inquiry concerning someone, who, at that time was being speculated as the ersatz possible assassin of President Kennedy."

Robert,

First, I admire your restraint and that of Bill in dealing with the purposefully vague and ever pompous Mr. Thom. But FYI, in the matter of 'discreet inquiry': I feel comfortable in stating that the expression simply means that the Agent is advised not to imply, act or otherwise hint in any way, including demeanor, that the subject of the investigation - or the investigtion intself - is anything but routine. One tends to get more information with that approach, anyway, right BK?

Not to overstate this, but I'm sure we all realize that if Oswald had gotten away and then Jack W. Martin's name, or any other name connected with any of the contingency plans, hit the fan, the 'discreet inquiry' instruction would have been off the board.

Keep Up The Good Work,
JG

Again, and not to belabor the point (and I think it would be a tall order to do do, given my recent experience in looking into SA Rice's background...)... the common theme when one examines the record related to the SS investigation coming from the city Oswald had deepest and recent, lengthy ties to, is the lack of transparency. A void that exists not only in the details that have emerged from the various segments of investigation, Jack W. Martin; instant suspect with no visible means of support who then fades permanently from the scene, Adele Edisen and her story of approaching SA Rice on 24 Nov., 1963, and the mystery of the details of the life and SS career of John W. Rice, himself.


Icing on this cake are the observation that SA Rice was not called to testify by the WC or by the HSCA, although, even if the details posted above did not exist, he was responsible for finding out what Oswald was doing in New Orleans during the last months of his life, and earlier, and because Oswald had relatives living in that city who should have been of interest to serious and thorough investigators.

Further, one now wonders why Vince Palamara permitted almost all details related to John W. Rice and his career to remain undisclosed to the point that Bill Kelly started posting blunt, serious questions about who Rice was and where he came from. Vince posts on his blog that he has interviewed 70 SS members and or their relatives; that he specializes in the research of SS agents during the JFK and LBJ administrations, yet he leaves Rice unexamined.
http://vincepalamara.blogspot.com/2009/02/...ian-secret.html

Even if Vince was unable to find out and relate how Rice came to be New Orleans SAIC, the things I posted above make what I think are a strong justification for intense effort by Vince to find out what he could about John Rice. Surely, if Vince asked, some of the 70 agents he has interviewed would have provided some details about Rice for Vince to pass along, during all of the years Vince has been doing this.

Where is Vince's information about John W Rice?

Bill Kelly intuitively summed up the problems I have with this serial lack of transparency in post #1 of this thread:

Greg , Funny how Walker tries to tie Os and Ruby to Wolf's demise. Knowing what I do about "Ted" and his penchant for mis-direction, I would start looking among Walkers group, for a suspect in Wolf's death. As for Deen, well... "The Eye's of Texas are Upon You" son....and when your in the biz of Civil Rights... that's not a good thing.


-Bill