From John Lear on another forum:


Between the four airplanes which allegedly crashed on 911 there should be
approximately 9 million parts. 3 million parts each for the 767 and 1.5
million parts for the 757. In addition to the parts there should be 60 miles
of wiring for each 757 or 120 miles for both. There is 90 miles of wiring
on each 767 which makes 180 miles for both 767's. Wiring is stamped every 12
inches or so with data which includes where it is going, where it is coming
from and its maximum load capacity. The reason for this is that wiring is
braided into bundles of up to one hundred wires and when you are tracing
down a problem you have to know quickly which wire you are looking for and
identify it.

Every single part on a Transport Category airplane which means it is
certificated to the standards of CFR14 (Code of Federal Regulations) Part 25
of the U.S. Federal Air Regulations and to be certificated either it has to
be made by the factory (Boeing) itself or subcontracted to another parts
maker. If it is made by another parts maker that parts maker has to be
inspected by the FAA and given PMA Parts Manufacturer Authority.

Every single part on a U.S Transport must have a Parts Number stamped,
engraved, embossed or otherwise identified so that an FAA inspector can
pick up a part and immediately identify whether or not that parts meets
conformity. Every single rivet and screw and other type fastener has their
own code of identification for the type. Every single forging, must be
stamped just like ever other piece of the airplane must be clearly
identified with a parts number, either engraved, painted, stamped, etc. This
is so that an FAA inspector can immediately tell whether or not that part
meets conformity. This includes every single part of an engine, auxiliary
power unit, door, safety belt, wheel, hydraulic pump or whatever.

It is also because in the investigation of an accident each remaining part
is inspected for conformity.

Parts numbers must be stamped, engraved, painted in a manner that even if it
is mutilated that the part number is still visible. The alleged Boeing 767
fuselage section, allegedly having been thrown clear of the accident to the
top of building 5 will have part numbers somewhere on that piece. You will
notice that it is not burnt so identification should be easy.

Regarding the alleged engine on Murray street is extremely difficult to
understand how an engine that size could break in half behind the fan
section, considering the shaft is one piece. But whatever the case there
should be identification numbers on all of the remaining parts of the
engine. Each Boeing 767 engine weighs about 9000 pounds. The takeoff
internal temperature of the 767 engine is over 900 C so it is highly
unlikely that any of the alleged 3 remaining engine in the WTC were burned
to any extent. Forgings much larger than the Boeing 767 engine should have
been visible in the wreckage of the WTC buildings, particularly the wing
attachment to fuselage forging.

Based on the above it is impossible that any Boeing 767 crashed into either
the North Tower or the South Tower.

John Lear

Tsk, tsk. Mr Lear once again exaggerates and misinforms.

Firstly - did the aircraft parts have ID marks?



Yep. So every part in all the aircraft in all the aircraft had serial numbers, right?

No. Most parts are required to have a part number, not a serial number. All of the same parts have the same part number. Certain critical parts are required to have a serial number, not all parts.



From FAA FAR Part 45 - IDENTIFICATION AND REGISTRATION MARKINGS.

So only some parts have a serial... but an engine would have a serial number on it.

Let me now pose a question: has Mr Lear done a FOIA request regarding the engine serial numbers?

As has been demonstrated on this forum (and elsewhere) Lear is a raving lunatic. I know or assume that most of his facts are correct but they don’t support his conclusions. For example it’s probably true that:

“Wiring is stamped every 12 inches or so with data which includes where it is going, where it is coming from and its maximum load capacity.”

But that in no way supports his conclusions that:

“Parts numbers must be stamped, engraved, painted in a manner that even if it
is mutilated that the part number is still visible. The alleged Boeing 767
fuselage section, allegedly having been thrown clear of the accident to the
top of building 5 will have part numbers somewhere on that piece”

“Regarding the alleged engine on Murray street is extremely difficult to
understand how an engine that size could break in half behind the fan
section, considering the shaft is one piece.”

“Forgings much larger than the Boeing 767 engine should have
been visible in the wreckage of the WTC buildings, particularly the wing
attachment to fuselage forging.”

His conclusion that “The alleged Boeing 767 fuselage section, allegedly having been thrown clear of the accident to the top of building 5 will have part numbers somewhere on that piece” is quite dubious; seemingly all that was left was a chunk of the aluminum (?) outer shell. It is my understanding that only parts which are normally replaced over a plane’s lifetime get serial numbers.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...UA175debris.jpg

His declaration that “…in the investigation of an accident each remaining part is inspected for conformity.” Is obviously false he previous stated that (edited for brevity):

Every single part on a U.S Transport must have a Parts Number stamped, engraved, embossed or otherwise identified…Every single rivet and screw and other type fastener has their own code of identification for the type…This includes every single part of an engine, auxiliary power unit, door, safety belt, wheel, hydraulic pump or whatever.”

So according to Lear if a plane crashed due to engine failure the NTSB would “inspect…”, “every single rivet and screw and other type fastener …door, safety belt, wheel, hydraulic pump or whatever.” “…for conformity.”

He said that 767’s have “approximately…3 million parts each”, it would take years to go through the meaningless exercise of checking all those parts. In reality the NTSB is only interested in parts suspected of having played a role in the crash, with the occasional exception of “black boxes” (CVR and FDR) the NTSB rarely gives the serial numbers of parts not determined to have played a role in the crash.

His declaration that.

“Regarding the alleged engine on Murray street is extremely difficult to
understand how an engine that size could break in half behind the fan
section, considering the shaft is one piece.”

Makes little sense, it was IDed as a engine core not an engine broken in half. He can’t claim to having expertise he never flew a 757/767 or plane of similar vintage and AFAIK has no experience as an aeronautical engineer or jet engine mechanic.

Basically his rantings amount to little more than a recycling of Col. Nelson’s complaint that serial numbers were not produced, there are (at least) 3 major fallacies with their reasoning.

1) Unlike the NTSB and FAA the FBI does not normally make its reports public
2) The NTSB rarely gives the serial numbers of parts not determined to have played a role in the crash
3) Even if the FBI a) gave the serial # of every recovered part supplied photos/videos of them in the locations they were recovered c) posted hi resolution copies online d) made the parts available for inspection e) posted high resolution scans of the maintenance log pages listing the serial #s f) made them available for inspection g) posted high resolution videos all those involved swearing under oath and signing statements that the pages and parts are authentic and unaltered h) posted high resolution scans of their signed statements and i) made them available for inspection – the no planes will simply claim that the evidence was fake and the witnesses lying.

The only poll to ask about such things showed that in 2006 only 6% of the population believed the Pentagon was struck by a missile. The number of people who believe that the WTC towers were hit by anything other than 767’s is far smaller. Even with in the “ ‘truth’ movement” “no planers” are small fringe and considered crazy - based on their internet postings, websites, videos etc most (all?) people who promote such theories are mentally unbalanced.

What other parts are there?


Fuselage parts


Landing gear parts

So do any parts match the claimed aircraft? SURPRISE - yes they do:



Which matches part of the leading edge slat control system on the B767.

Here are other parts recovered:

http://americanhistory.si.edu/september11/...ecord.asp?ID=45

BTW, I agree with Len: these days, Lear is a whacko.

So, where is the FOIA request, asking for the serial numbers, and the subsequent admission that none existed? Hmm?

I agree with David Guyatt:

"Jack, we will have to agree to disagree over Lear. I don't consider him credible. "

http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/sh...ighlight=humint

Interesting parallel discussion at the DPF

Jack who claims to be dedicated to the "truth" shows he is not above bending it like a pretzel or flat out making stuff up.

"On the EF, Len Brasil disputes Lear's expertise
because he is not an aeronautical engineer
and has never piloted a 767.

Huh?"

"The Len entity lives in Brazil and works for a governmental agency."

Meanwhile at nut job there advocates cyberstalking

"Hey, people, get back to your senses. All it is going to take is a little HUMINT.
Did this Len entity ever disclose his location, his telephone number or did he mention some travel he did or some hotel he stayed in?
Does anyone know his credit card numbers, bank accounts or other traceable info?
I bet not.
Guess why?"

Jack or Peter please pass on my request to Mr. Wiethoff to "disclose his location, his telephone number... some hotel he stayed in...his credit card numbers, bank accounts [and] other traceable info"

More from John Lear:

Flight 77 could not have hit the Pentagon for the simple reason that April Gallop was sitting at her
desk about 40 feet from the hole. She saw no airplane, missile or drone and smelled no jet fuel,
kerosene or any kind of gas. She reached beside her desk and grabbed her 6 month old son an climbed
out the alleged hole made by an alleged airplane. She has been harassed by Army Intelligence and recently
filed a suit against the U.S, Government.

In addition I am an expert in reading Flight digital Data Recorders and it is my opinion that Flight 77 was flown by
professionals and overflew the Pentagon by about 200 feet.

As to Shankvilles based on the debris there is no possibility that a large commercial airliner crashed into the alleged
mining pit. I am a certified Federal Mine Safety and Health Instructor and based on that and my aviation background
there is not possibility that an airplane crashed at that reclamation site.

As to Flight 93 getting shot down it would have been impossible to hide the wreckage of such a crash from the public
or the media because of the size of the debris field.

As to the WTC crashes it would be impossible for an airplane to hit the WTC and not have at least half of it fall back into the street.
At least the tail section should have broken off and fallen into the street. Remaining in the wreckage of the tower should have been at
least 3 P&W 4062 engines, weighing 4 tons each which simply could not have burned completely up. There were large forgings
including the wing fuselage forgings, wheel bogeys, struts and vertical horizontal tail assembly which simply could not have disappeared.

2 commercial airliners could not have totally disappeared inside the wreckage of both WTC towers.

The fact that there has not been one single piece of 4 airliners with over 9 million stamped, engraved or painted with serial and production
numbers along with 300 miles of wire is proof that no airplanes crashed anywhere on 911. In the history of flight there has never been
an airplane crash, the known site of which contained no parts of the airplanes. I have investigated 3 Learjet crashes as part of the NTSB team,
all three of which went straight in from altitude and there were plenty of parts left and in all three cases large parts of the tail remained. Both the
757 and the 767 are much larger and should have left much larger parts than the smaller Learjet.

John Lear

http://www.911blogger.com/node/13149

Excuse me, but for some reason I've been getting emails from a guy who goes by the name Tom Kellum, who started out questioning some of the wreckage at the Pentagon, claiming they were planted, and when I started asking him questions, like did they plant body parts too, he began to get insulting.

Now I get three or four insulting emails a day from this guy.

I refuse to call anybody "Truthers," so I'm going to call him a No-Plainer.

But I think the search for the truth about what happened at 9/11 and 11/22/63 has led some people out of their minds.

BK

I will look for the quote but the book Firefight quotes firemen who arrived shortly after the crash and reported seeing bodies strapped into airline seats. The more extreme their positions the more mentally unbalanced truthers tend to be, and "no planers" are the worst. "Moon bases" Lear and David Shayler (aka Jesus, aka Delores) are prime examples.

As for the FOIA request perhaps the problem was that the NTSB not the FAA is responsible for identifying wreckage of crashes believed to be accidents and helping the FBI with crashes that were criminal. That was akin to sending the FBI an FOIA request for a forgery case.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19543120/Mystery...-Opposition-911

Too many 'Truther's' start from the premise that they already know the truth. The evidence must therefore be squeezed to fit this 'truth' rather than the research journey being an 'open'one of genuine scholarship. They do appear to become extraordinarily offensive and aggressive when challenged. Jack White for instance recently insinuated that I work for the CIA, Charles Drago (vile man) has suggested in the past that I am an 'enemy agent'.... in previous years I have been accused of being both anti Semitic and that I work for Mossad accusations levelled sometimes in the same day and same thread........ Why am I always the last to know these things about myself??
This collective insanity seems particularly rife amongst 9/11 conspiracists. I recently read a dispiriting thread in another place where 'realising' this 'truth' was described in quasi religious terms - a moment of religious conversion - funny old bunch, interesting psychologically but absolutely nothing to do with education.

John Lear, in a recent posting, made a VERY interesting observation.
Since he has VAST EXPERIENCE as a passenger pilot, he wonders why
nobody has filed an FOIA request for what in the industry is called
THE ENVELOPE...on the four hijacked flights. The ENVELOPES were not
mentioned in any of the investigations.

THE ENVELOPE contains a document, signed by the AIRCRAFT CAPTAIN
on EVERY COMMERCIAL FLIGHT, which contains the final passenger manifest,
the destination, the amount of fuel on board, the names of the pilot and
flight attendants, etc., and the time the DOOR OF THE AIRCRAFT WAS CLOSED.

The chief pilot signs the document, puts into the ENVELOPE, seals it and
hands it to the CHIEF FLIGHT ATTENDANT, who hands it to a terminal
employee. The chief flight attendant then CLOSES THE DOOR. The ENVELOPE
remains ON THE GROUND in airline custody. It is required by the FAA, and
is what is opened in case of a crash. IT STAYS ON THE GROUND, THUS IS
NOT DESTROYED IN ANY CRASH. All four flights should have had
ENVELOPES available.

Jack

...I should have mentioned that the passenger mainfest (a printout of
preticketed passengers) may be augmented by the chief flight attendant
if passengers do not show up, or late arrivals are added. The manifest
in THE ENVELOPE would include the names of hijackers, if preticketed,
or their written in aliases if added at the last moment by hand. In any
event, every person on board would be accounted for.

I have NO IDEA who Andy Walker is nor who he works for. I do know that he is totally
uninformed on subjects under discussion here.

As a psychoanalyst he is woeful. His pop psychoanalysis is hogwash. I approach any
mystery with NO premise, other than something appears wrong about the official story.

I then examine all evidence trying to make sense of any facts available. I go where
the facts lead. In the case of the Apollo missions, I believed the official story for
nearly 30 years. But then they made the mistake of RELEASING ALL THE APOLLO
PHOTOS. After studying EVERY photo, I found that every photo was faked. I have
no notion why all the photos are faked if men went to the moon. I have no preconceived
notion of what this means. I am still working on that. Faked photos must have been
produced for some reason.

I do not know nor care whether Walker is CIA. Even if he denies it, we know that
is a requirement, don't we.

He is clearly out his his element here.

Jack

Wow. The ENVELOPE.

Use BIG LETTERS to attach importance to WHAT I SAY.

For me, it's the OA100 Flight Details and Authorisation.

Unless using a specific company / organisation name like I did, it's normally just called a passenger manifest. Lear is correct about one thing though: a copy has to remain with a responsible person on the ground. Which explains why these:





etc

etc.

Lear calls himself an "expert" on DFDRs? That would be hilarious if it weren't another example of Lear's tenuous grip on reality and overblown opinion of his aviation credentials.

It must have been a lucky guess then that I got your number so quickly

BS from the Washington Post

But no drug wards off her flashbacks, when she sees herself at her Pentagon desk three years ago…

When Elisha cries these days the same way he did when he was trapped under the debris, it all comes back. If she drives past an airport and smells jet fuel, it all comes back. She hears her injured co-workers calling for help. She sees the shards of metal, the broken furniture and shattered lights jutting dangerously every which way. It feels . . . so real.
"You live with it, almost every day," Gallop said. "You carry it with you."

So why would the smell of jet fuel make “it all come back” if she hadn’t smelt it after the attack? Lear exemplifies typical idiot truther logic, dozens of people saw the plane hit but one person inside the building didn’t see it therefore it “could not have hit the Pentagon” It hit the wall at about 800 ft (4x its length)/sec and projected debris on top of her.



He claims such expertise but unless I’m mistaken this is not a skill pilots would be expected to know, it is the realm of crash investigators. Dozens of witnesses saw the plane hit none saw flyover the building.




I doubt he was there. Numerous crash investigators disagree and several witnesses saw the crash.


This shows he is ignorant about basic physics momentum projected the debris forward



IIRC two engine cores were found. But in any case

100+ ton Boeings crashed into steel framed buildings at 450 – 550 mph. The parts then a) fell about 1000 and were later crushed by the rubble of two 500,000 ton buildings or were lodged in those buildings and were crushed when the collapsed

And Einstein is surprised the other two (or three) cores and other parts he mentions weren’t found amongst the million or so tons of debris?





They didn’t



Repeat of his previous BS see my 1st reply



He's correct and there were lots of parts collected from all 9/11 crash siotes



Once again he demonstrates his ignorance of basic physics, the greater the mass the greater the energy of the crash. A loaded Learjet 60 weighs about 20,000 lbs (9000 kilos), a loaded 757 about 10 times that and a 767 about 20 times that. Kinetic energy is based on the square of velocity, double the speed quadruple the KE, I doubt any of the crashes he investigated hit the ground at 580 mph like flight 93 or flew into buildings at 450 – 530 pph like flight 11, 175 and 77. Apparently he was not involved in the investigation of the most famous Learjet crash, Payne Stewart’s plane left very little recognizable wreckage.

The silence to this very simple question is telling. Has any truther done a FOIA request for the serial numbers?