Full Version: The Flight To Dallas
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Mr. Plumlee. It is excellent to see this article as the information on this mission is somewhat scattered. Is there any reason or explanation for the code name 'Zapata'?
Tosh,
I think it is really great that you have told your very important story on your own terms. The result of removing the money-changers and the benefit thereof is remarkably demonstrated. What you have produced will serve historical researchers for years to come, while at the same time clarifying so much of the murkiness generated by the West-Vernon interview.
Here is a photo with circles denoting your location a few moments after the assassination (left) and the location you suggest as your best estimate for a south knoll shooter:
Click to view attachment
When I was in Dallas this past Friday, I attempted to examine the south knoll parking area for the optimal shooting position, only to find that it has been significantly secured. Walking across the pedestrian part of the overpass, there was a locked gate at the parking lot - the same with the top of the steps leading up from the street. At the driving entrance there was a manned security guard kiosk. The difference in security between the south and north knoll parking areas is like night and day.
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
Here are a couple of south knoll views of the angle of trajectory, the first being from the south side but still atop the overpass, the second from the south knoll but a bit too far to the right (because the 1963 view is no longer available due to the aforementioned security and the unbridled overgrowth of the trees).
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
Thanks again for the effort you've made and what you've accomplished with it. It is truly a service to history. But now the debate is also refreshed, because I, like many researchers, I imagine, want names names names! Who was Sergio? I know that you've made it clear that you knew people by their operational names, but after this much time and research, there must be some more names you can provide. C'mon!
Tim
I think it is really great that you have told your very important story on your own terms. The result of removing the money-changers and the benefit thereof is remarkably demonstrated. What you have produced will serve historical researchers for years to come, while at the same time clarifying so much of the murkiness generated by the West-Vernon interview.
Here is a photo with circles denoting your location a few moments after the assassination (left) and the location you suggest as your best estimate for a south knoll shooter:
Click to view attachment
When I was in Dallas this past Friday, I attempted to examine the south knoll parking area for the optimal shooting position, only to find that it has been significantly secured. Walking across the pedestrian part of the overpass, there was a locked gate at the parking lot - the same with the top of the steps leading up from the street. At the driving entrance there was a manned security guard kiosk. The difference in security between the south and north knoll parking areas is like night and day.
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
Here are a couple of south knoll views of the angle of trajectory, the first being from the south side but still atop the overpass, the second from the south knoll but a bit too far to the right (because the 1963 view is no longer available due to the aforementioned security and the unbridled overgrowth of the trees).
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
Thanks again for the effort you've made and what you've accomplished with it. It is truly a service to history. But now the debate is also refreshed, because I, like many researchers, I imagine, want names names names! Who was Sergio? I know that you've made it clear that you knew people by their operational names, but after this much time and research, there must be some more names you can provide. C'mon!
Tim
Tosh,
You wrote:
Part 3 - Conclusion
When I later learned that Oswald had been arrested as the lone assassin, I remembered having met him on a number of previous occasions which were connected with intelligence training matters, first at Illusionary Warfare Training in Nagshead, North Carolina, then in Honolulu at a radar installation and at Oahu's Wheeler Air Force Base, then in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination.
Do you remember if this Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley was further north of Oswald's rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley, or if it was south of his rooming house?
Steve Thomas
You wrote:
Part 3 - Conclusion
When I later learned that Oswald had been arrested as the lone assassin, I remembered having met him on a number of previous occasions which were connected with intelligence training matters, first at Illusionary Warfare Training in Nagshead, North Carolina, then in Honolulu at a radar installation and at Oahu's Wheeler Air Force Base, then in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination.
Do you remember if this Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley was further north of Oswald's rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley, or if it was south of his rooming house?
Steve Thomas
Thank you Tosh for this very clear statement. Do you think it is possible that you are John Roselli were being set up as “patsys”? I have speculated elsewhere, Familiar Faces in Dealey Plaza (1), that maybe the people involved in the assassination, arranged for certain people to be in Dallas on that day. This would ensure that researchers would be provided with a series of false leads.
One way of getting CIA operatives in Dallas on the day of the assassination was to put forward a story that there was to be an attempt on Kennedy’s life in Dealey Plaza. It was of course one of many threats on Kennedy’s life at that time. Therefore the tour of Dallas was unlikely to be called off.
The fact that you were asked to take John Roselli to Dallas seems particularly significant. There have been several leaks of information that has resulted in people considering Rosseli to be a key figure in the assassination. Most of these attempts have come from dubious sources (Jack Anderson, Richard Billings, G. Robert Blakey, Robert Maheu, etc.). However, if he had been involved, would he have had to be in Dallas on the day of the assassination? If he did need to be there, would there have been more secret ways of doing it?
Were you contacted by anyone after the assassination about the abort mission? Your superiors must have been very concerned that you were aware of this failed abort mission. Especially as it involved John Roselli, a significant organized crime figure.
(1) http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2313
One way of getting CIA operatives in Dallas on the day of the assassination was to put forward a story that there was to be an attempt on Kennedy’s life in Dealey Plaza. It was of course one of many threats on Kennedy’s life at that time. Therefore the tour of Dallas was unlikely to be called off.
The fact that you were asked to take John Roselli to Dallas seems particularly significant. There have been several leaks of information that has resulted in people considering Rosseli to be a key figure in the assassination. Most of these attempts have come from dubious sources (Jack Anderson, Richard Billings, G. Robert Blakey, Robert Maheu, etc.). However, if he had been involved, would he have had to be in Dallas on the day of the assassination? If he did need to be there, would there have been more secret ways of doing it?
Were you contacted by anyone after the assassination about the abort mission? Your superiors must have been very concerned that you were aware of this failed abort mission. Especially as it involved John Roselli, a significant organized crime figure.
(1) http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2313
Fascinating story Tosh, thank you!
Imagining myself in that/your position gets the old heart beating I tell you.
What I would like to know is;
what did you & the people you were with on the South knoll do, when you heard the shot above & behind you?
We can't really expect to find you in the Cancellare photo(Tims' post above) taken around 30 seconds after the headshot, if you were off investigating it's source.
Also,
did you ever hear what happened to the North knoll team?
Are you sure they weren't in position in time?
They arrived & left Dallas separately from you, yes?
Regards, to all.
Alan.
Imagining myself in that/your position gets the old heart beating I tell you.
What I would like to know is;
what did you & the people you were with on the South knoll do, when you heard the shot above & behind you?
We can't really expect to find you in the Cancellare photo(Tims' post above) taken around 30 seconds after the headshot, if you were off investigating it's source.
Also,
did you ever hear what happened to the North knoll team?
Are you sure they weren't in position in time?
They arrived & left Dallas separately from you, yes?
Regards, to all.
Alan.
Deleted at request of Plumlee
[quote=Steve Thomas,Nov 22 2004, 05:22 PM][color=green]Tosh,
You wrote:
You wrote:
QUOTE (William Plumlee @ Nov 22 2004, 11:01 PM)
QUOTE (Steve Thomas @ Nov 22 2004, 05:22 PM)
Tosh,
You wrote:
Part 3 - Conclusion
When I later learned that Oswald had been arrested as the lone assassin, I remembered having met him on a number of previous occasions which were connected with intelligence training matters, first at Illusionary Warfare Training in Nagshead, North Carolina, then in Honolulu at a radar installation and at Oahu's Wheeler Air Force Base, then in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination.
Do you remember if this Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley was further north of Oswald's rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley, or if it was south of his rooming house?
Steve Thomas
You wrote:
Part 3 - Conclusion
When I later learned that Oswald had been arrested as the lone assassin, I remembered having met him on a number of previous occasions which were connected with intelligence training matters, first at Illusionary Warfare Training in Nagshead, North Carolina, then in Honolulu at a radar installation and at Oahu's Wheeler Air Force Base, then in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination.
Do you remember if this Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley was further north of Oswald's rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley, or if it was south of his rooming house?
Steve Thomas
Steve: The "safe" house (although I am not sure that is a good term for that place) was directly behind the 1026 N Beckley house where Oswald had rented a room for a short time. This place had been active for over three years before Oswald had came on the scene. It is hard to find and cannot be seen from the Beckley street brick house. It is at the back of the house next to an alley. Most of the rooms had been converted to bedrooms and in some circles you could call it a "flop house". This is where I carved my initials in a kitchen draining board in the spring of 1963 (WRP)
The other places I refer to as "safe houses" were on Zangs Blvd, Harlendale St, and the one near Oak Cliff Country Club next to Red Bird Airport. All of these places were ongoing independents, long before the assassination. They were independent of CIA or Military operations. Alpha-66 had a part in some of these houses, but were not CIA funded or nor were any 'cut out' companies of the CIA used to support them. In fact the FBI wanted them shut down (at the request of the CIA) because of the harm those operations were doing to sanctioned operations being conducted in Florida at the time; raising money and arms to launch unauthorized missions into Cuba were exposing secret plans to start up a 'second front' Around 1962. Later (Spring 63) these Dallas operations were interfering with the President's secret peace plan and 'olive branch' extention to Fidel Castro. Most of these independent groups were put under surveillance by the FBI and their activites were past back to Hoover himself. The Kennedy assassination compromised most of the Dallas operations and they were disbanded shortly after.
------------------------
Tosh:
Thank you for sharing your most remarkable story. Like Tim, I want to know more. It is most curious that Johnny Roselli should have been with you. But John's point on this is well taken too.
Is your testimony still classified?
Do you have a personal opinion of who killed JFK? I totally agree with you that the people on your plane were acting more in a manner commensurate with having "failed" in stopping an assassination rather than a celebratory mannar. (I have read some horror accounts of these celebrations in other circles).
I hope your story paves a path for others who are still alive who can shed further light on the truth. We know there are several living who can, if only they would.
Many thanks,
Dawn
I hope you will be able to shed further light on this tragedy of now 41 years.
Well done, Tosh!
Thanks for being here to tell your story.
C
Thanks for being here to tell your story.
C
[quote=Alan Healy,Nov 22 2004, 08:05 PM][color=green]Fascinating story Tosh, thank you!
[ Deleted at Plumlee's request
[xxx
Thanks Tosh, nice thing to say. I'm sure if Paul were here today he'd slap you on the back and whisper to me: "What the hell are you doing with THIS guy?" (wink)
I'll get back to my story later. Have some inspired thoughts from this conference here. Just taking this all in. Good stuff.
Hope everyone got to see "Investigating History" last night on History Channel.
The program made a few errors, but one was bad. It said something like: "...and the ARRB is no longer functioning today...."
The ARRB is still functioning-- in DC in the archives of Assassination Archives and Research Center and on the History Matters website. It functions every time a researcher opens a box at NARA II archives stamped JFK Act.
We wouldn't be nearly as close, in our analysis without our champions, without the work of some good people, even USG people--Gasp!
As many rotten people in the deaths of John, Martin and Bobby, were good people. Many now gone. Lest we forget, they never believed one word of the "official" story.
I like to think of them on the 22nd with Kennedy, not the shady “unknowns” of Dealy Plaza.
I'll get back to my story later. Have some inspired thoughts from this conference here. Just taking this all in. Good stuff.
Hope everyone got to see "Investigating History" last night on History Channel.
The program made a few errors, but one was bad. It said something like: "...and the ARRB is no longer functioning today...."
The ARRB is still functioning-- in DC in the archives of Assassination Archives and Research Center and on the History Matters website. It functions every time a researcher opens a box at NARA II archives stamped JFK Act.
We wouldn't be nearly as close, in our analysis without our champions, without the work of some good people, even USG people--Gasp!
As many rotten people in the deaths of John, Martin and Bobby, were good people. Many now gone. Lest we forget, they never believed one word of the "official" story.
I like to think of them on the 22nd with Kennedy, not the shady “unknowns” of Dealy Plaza.
[quote=Chris Cox,Nov 24 2004, 05:18 AM]Thanks Tosh, nice thing to say. I'm sure if Paul were here today he'd slap you on the back and whisper to
[quote=William Plumlee,Nov 25 2004, 02:49 AM]
Tosh, you are right --info from FOIA files (FBI loved to keep files on people, the SACs kept busy) only as good as how complete they are. Especially 105 files were distributed among associated agencies.
Your's shows that half the story reached the congressional investigators. Of course Hoover is in here because he controlled info going to all the key investigations, from his FBI.
Too bad we file FOIAs and expect some due process but there are some docs that slip through and reveal the unexpected. Your files illustrate this as do mine.
My files on my father clearly show that CIA, Customs, INS, Border Patrol, Military all signed off , all cc'd on stuff yet I'm told the same pat, "No records exist."
NARA has some of the story and I credit those who pushed for more boxes to be opened.
Your's shows that half the story reached the congressional investigators. Of course Hoover is in here because he controlled info going to all the key investigations, from his FBI.
Too bad we file FOIAs and expect some due process but there are some docs that slip through and reveal the unexpected. Your files illustrate this as do mine.
My files on my father clearly show that CIA, Customs, INS, Border Patrol, Military all signed off , all cc'd on stuff yet I'm told the same pat, "No records exist."
NARA has some of the story and I credit those who pushed for more boxes to be opened.
QUOTE (Chris Cox @ Nov 25 2004, 03:33 AM)
Tosh, you are right --info from FOIA files (FBI loved to keep files on people, the SACs kept busy) only as good as how complete they are. Especially 105 files were distributed among associated agencies.
Your's shows that half the story reached the congressional investigators. Of course Hoover is in here because he controlled info going to all the key investigations, from his FBI.
Too bad we file FOIAs and expect some due process but there are some docs that slip through and reveal the unexpected. Your files illustrate this as do mine.
My files on my father clearly show that CIA, Customs, INS, Border Patrol, Military all signed off , all cc'd on stuff yet I'm told the same pat, "No records exist."
NARA has some of the story and I credit those who pushed for more boxes to be opened.
Your's shows that half the story reached the congressional investigators. Of course Hoover is in here because he controlled info going to all the key investigations, from his FBI.
Too bad we file FOIAs and expect some due process but there are some docs that slip through and reveal the unexpected. Your files illustrate this as do mine.
My files on my father clearly show that CIA, Customs, INS, Border Patrol, Military all signed off , all cc'd on stuff yet I'm told the same pat, "No records exist."
NARA has some of the story and I credit those who pushed for more boxes to be opened.
You got it little one. Have a good Thanksgiving
There is one thing in Mr. Plumlee's statement that I've been able to confirm. I checked around looking for info on the Alpha 66 safe house behind Oswald's that he mentioned.
It seems it's already been confirmed separately of Mr. Plumlee's statement. Many have mentioned the house at 3126 Harlandale Avenue as a safe house where Oswald was seen with Cubans. Secret Service man Forrest Sorrels told Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers about the house, mentioning #3128, which Walthers put in his section of the Dallas Sheriff's Supplemental Report.
Two men came forward around the time of the making of the film "JFK" who claimed to know Oswald in Dallas and in New Orleans. They told researchers independently that the safe house was directly behind Oswald's rooming house. Researcher Gus Russo called the landlady (Oswald's landlady's daughter) to ask who lived in the back house (presumably in 1963). Her (paraphrased) answer: "Latins or Cubans."
Mr. Plumlee, I'm not sure about the rest, but you're right on the money about the safe house and that's brought your account up a step on the credibility scale in my eye.
G
It seems it's already been confirmed separately of Mr. Plumlee's statement. Many have mentioned the house at 3126 Harlandale Avenue as a safe house where Oswald was seen with Cubans. Secret Service man Forrest Sorrels told Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers about the house, mentioning #3128, which Walthers put in his section of the Dallas Sheriff's Supplemental Report.
Two men came forward around the time of the making of the film "JFK" who claimed to know Oswald in Dallas and in New Orleans. They told researchers independently that the safe house was directly behind Oswald's rooming house. Researcher Gus Russo called the landlady (Oswald's landlady's daughter) to ask who lived in the back house (presumably in 1963). Her (paraphrased) answer: "Latins or Cubans."
Mr. Plumlee, I'm not sure about the rest, but you're right on the money about the safe house and that's brought your account up a step on the credibility scale in my eye.
G
[quote=Gibson Vendettuoli,Nov 28 2004, 06:26 PM]There is one thing in Mr. Plumlee's statement that I've been able to confirm. I checked around looking for info on the Alpha 66 safe house behind Oswald's that he mentioned.
file deleted pending research
xxx
Thanks,
so the FBI gets details they need for their files, covers the operations of other USG agencies, and the operative who provides the details gets discredited as a matter of course-
the main issue of the files, the details get buried until investigators come around in 70s with HSCA and articles cropping up about CIA and operations (Like Hinckle Turner book,etc) is that correct?
so the FBI gets details they need for their files, covers the operations of other USG agencies, and the operative who provides the details gets discredited as a matter of course-
the main issue of the files, the details get buried until investigators come around in 70s with HSCA and articles cropping up about CIA and operations (Like Hinckle Turner book,etc) is that correct?
[quote=Chris Cox,Nov 29 2004, 09:08 PM]Thanks,
[deleted until further research is completed]
can't add other docs, my PC is flaking will try later
QUOTE (William Plumlee @ Nov 23 2004, 02:29 AM)
What did we do after the shots?
We did not go and investigate anything. We were in shock. We never really thought there was anything to the reports that an actual assassination would really take place. When it did we were stunned. When it happened our first concern was to get out of the plaza without being noticed. If we had been picked up then it would have been bad for us, because it would have been on us to prove why we were there, something we could not do. In that respect we would have been the "fall guys", and perhaps been thought of as additional assassins. However we did think a shooter had came in from the backside of the south parking lot after we had walked through it earlier. We knew that within seconds after the shooting this person would be gone and all evidence with him.
It was to late to do anything except slowly leave the area and not draw attention. We smelled powder on the way out which could have drifted from the north knoll, but because of the shot that seemed to go over us and to the left of our position at the time of the shots, we felt the smell of powder was from the south knoll.
I think you can find us in the Cancellare photo. I have said for years that about that time 10 to 20 seconds we would have been about that location by the fork tree. At the time of the shots and the south knoll shot we would have been a little further up the knoll to the left of the forked tree (looking from the position of Cancellare. After the shots and after a few seconds we started down the hill to the right of the sidewalk steps (as viewed from Cancellare) At the time of the photo we would have been in the shadow of the fork tree walking toward the underpass
(note in Tim's photo count seventeen steps and move to the right half way from the tree base to the sidewalk)
I have ask for years for the photo experts to really take a hard look at this area. I have felt that if it could be established that two people were there it would go a long way in proving that we were there for the reasons I have said. Even now that we have better equipment this is not being done for whatever reasons.
The north knoll team? When I got back to Florida. I was advised that I should not have gone on that operation and Sergio had not been authorized to take me. We (Sergio and I) were in deep S...T. Shortly after that debriefing on November 25, I was arrested and extradited to Colorado to stand charges for a $50 no account check which had been dismissed the year before. (as the record is documented in Div. 10 Denver County Court, 1962-63. The check had been paid. It had been written by my wife of that time, in Denver It was never produced in court) I was sentence to an "INDEFINITE term in the Colorado State Reformatory, Buna Vista, Colorado.
I was not released until after the WC had completed their investigation. I was not allowed to have any contact with any previous operatives or team members. For three months (December 1963 until April 1964) after I was extradited to Colorado I was held in the Denver County Jail and was not allowed to see anyone except the FBI. I went into the State Reformatory in April 1964 as inmate #17581. I was told by SAC Scott Warner, Denver FBI, that if I 'did not stop talking about what I thought I knew about the assassination, I would never get out'.
In answer to your question. I have no idea what happen to the other team members, north or south. In order to get out of jail in December of 1964 I made an agreement and that was part of my parole agreement. I went underground and started a new life as a Plumber, not a pilot. Then 1974 came along and Senator Church and thats another story.[/color]
We did not go and investigate anything. We were in shock. We never really thought there was anything to the reports that an actual assassination would really take place. When it did we were stunned. When it happened our first concern was to get out of the plaza without being noticed. If we had been picked up then it would have been bad for us, because it would have been on us to prove why we were there, something we could not do. In that respect we would have been the "fall guys", and perhaps been thought of as additional assassins. However we did think a shooter had came in from the backside of the south parking lot after we had walked through it earlier. We knew that within seconds after the shooting this person would be gone and all evidence with him.
It was to late to do anything except slowly leave the area and not draw attention. We smelled powder on the way out which could have drifted from the north knoll, but because of the shot that seemed to go over us and to the left of our position at the time of the shots, we felt the smell of powder was from the south knoll.
I think you can find us in the Cancellare photo. I have said for years that about that time 10 to 20 seconds we would have been about that location by the fork tree. At the time of the shots and the south knoll shot we would have been a little further up the knoll to the left of the forked tree (looking from the position of Cancellare. After the shots and after a few seconds we started down the hill to the right of the sidewalk steps (as viewed from Cancellare) At the time of the photo we would have been in the shadow of the fork tree walking toward the underpass
(note in Tim's photo count seventeen steps and move to the right half way from the tree base to the sidewalk)
I have ask for years for the photo experts to really take a hard look at this area. I have felt that if it could be established that two people were there it would go a long way in proving that we were there for the reasons I have said. Even now that we have better equipment this is not being done for whatever reasons.
The north knoll team? When I got back to Florida. I was advised that I should not have gone on that operation and Sergio had not been authorized to take me. We (Sergio and I) were in deep S...T. Shortly after that debriefing on November 25, I was arrested and extradited to Colorado to stand charges for a $50 no account check which had been dismissed the year before. (as the record is documented in Div. 10 Denver County Court, 1962-63. The check had been paid. It had been written by my wife of that time, in Denver It was never produced in court) I was sentence to an "INDEFINITE term in the Colorado State Reformatory, Buna Vista, Colorado.
I was not released until after the WC had completed their investigation. I was not allowed to have any contact with any previous operatives or team members. For three months (December 1963 until April 1964) after I was extradited to Colorado I was held in the Denver County Jail and was not allowed to see anyone except the FBI. I went into the State Reformatory in April 1964 as inmate #17581. I was told by SAC Scott Warner, Denver FBI, that if I 'did not stop talking about what I thought I knew about the assassination, I would never get out'.
In answer to your question. I have no idea what happen to the other team members, north or south. In order to get out of jail in December of 1964 I made an agreement and that was part of my parole agreement. I went underground and started a new life as a Plumber, not a pilot. Then 1974 came along and Senator Church and thats another story.[/color]
Tosh, thank you again!
A very interesting reply.
Just so you know, I haven't followed your story before now, I have only been interested in finding out about the north knoll.
So I apologise if I'm making you repeat yourself.
I cannnot apologise for staying focused on the north knoll however, since I am probably just as convinced a shot came from there as you are that one come from behind you that day.
Let me quote you directly from the thread where you perked my interest in your story;
QUOTE (William Plumlee @ Oct 28 2004, 04:29 PM)
1) I do not believe that there was a shooter anywhere near the north knoll; behind a fence; on a car hood; in the parking lot; behind a wall. I do not care what the "Experts" say. They have not proven their case to me beyond a resonable doubt. That goes for the South Knoll as well as the North Knoll locations.
Today we have better equipment to photo work these pictures. That technique should be applied by professional personal.., example Law enforcement or private corp. that deal with such matters. What I think. What you think. And what the public has been led to think is of no value today.
(2) I do not believe that a professional sniper team would place a shooter that close to the public with a rifle or a pistol. (within twenty five feet of people watching the motorcade and between the personal on the overpass and the kill zone.) If that WAS the case it would have been done by amatures and they would have been caught before they got away from their position.
Today we have better equipment to photo work these pictures. That technique should be applied by professional personal.., example Law enforcement or private corp. that deal with such matters. What I think. What you think. And what the public has been led to think is of no value today.
(2) I do not believe that a professional sniper team would place a shooter that close to the public with a rifle or a pistol. (within twenty five feet of people watching the motorcade and between the personal on the overpass and the kill zone.) If that WAS the case it would have been done by amatures and they would have been caught before they got away from their position.
Although I find your story presented here very believeable, these statements quoted above from that previous thread are a total contradiction to me.
I disagree with almost everything contained in them.
In fact, because you were standing directly across the plaza from the north knoll & say you didn't see anything there, makes me want to convince you your mistaken.
So please forgive me, I am not trying to distract from your story.
I'm guessing that your first paragraph had a lot to do with the subject being discussed in that thread, i.e "Gunmen in the Shadows/Photographs", so I won't read too much into it, suffice to say;
The majority of witnesses, positioned on, or adjacent to the north knoll either through their statements or reactions, point to the area behind the wall & beyond it, into the car-park, as the source of at least one shot.
Bobby Hargis. Ran immediately to the BDM position.
Lem Johns. After failing to catch the VP headed behind the wall into the car-park.
The Newmans. "The shots came from the knoll".
Mary McKinnon. "The shots came from the knoll".
Zapruder & Co. "....behind me".
Emmett Hudson. "....behind me".
Of course there are others, most noteworthy of these being SM Holland, who heard a shot from behind the fence & saw smoke drift out from under under the trees there.
These witnesses have shown me where to look & I would like to know why you seem to pay them no heed.
Your statements in the second paragraph are just opinions, which "in my opinion" are over-simplified & incorrect, I'm sorry.
IMO,
someone tried to kill JFK from behind that little wall in broad daylight.
He missed the killshot, for some reason & for some reason you & the other witnesses in the plaza that day missed his presence.
If he was using a silencer & there was someone letting off fire-crackers at the other end of the street at the same time, then that could help explain it.
What you & others are not taking into account(when dismissing a shooter in BDMs' position) is that each shooter was probably part of a group of two or three all firing at the same time.
Being spotted or even getting away was not necessarily in their own hands nor the priority.
If the first volley of shots was needed when say, the limo went behind the sign in the Zfilm, then to play his part a north knoll shooter may well of decided that the extra three metres gained from standing in front of the picket fence was more important than being spotted(especially since this team would of been convinced of their safe extraction from the plaza) & especially since this, the first volley, would of had the most thought going into it to get it right.
Please tell me what strikes you as more amateurish;
playing it safe & taking three attempts to get the kill(probably close to ten seconds)
or one man at one position taking a "small" risk to get closer to the target so they
could all get outta' there quicker(one shot-one kill).
Tosh, my only motivation here is to support the BDM=Assassin idea & to get you to shed some more light on the north knoll if you can.
I think that having a witness like yourself who believes in the conspiracy, saying that "you don't believe there was a shooter on the north knoll" is, if you'll forgive me, quite a rarity.
Respectfully,
Alan.
QUOTE (Alan Healy @ Dec 8 2004, 02:40 PM)
Tosh, thank you again!
I am probably just as convinced a shot came from there as you are that one come from behind you that day.
Let me quote you directly from the thread where you perked my interest in your story;
1) I do not believe that there was a shooter anywhere near the north knoll; behind a fence; on a car hood; in the parking lot; behind a wall. I do not care what the "Experts" say. They have not proven their case to me beyond a resonable doubt. That goes for the South Knoll as well as the North Knoll locations.
Today we have better equipment to photo work these pictures. That technique should be applied by professional personal.., example Law enforcement or private corp. that deal with such matters. What I think. What you think. And what the public has been led to think is of no value today.
(2) I do not believe that a professional sniper team would place a shooter that close to the public with a rifle or a pistol. (within twenty five feet of people watching the motorcade and between the personal on the overpass and the kill zone.) If that WAS the case it would have been done by amatures and they would have been caught before they got away from their position.
Although I find your story presented here very believeable, these statements quoted above from that previous thread are a total contradiction to me.
I disagree with almost everything contained in them.
In fact, because you were standing directly across the plaza from the north knoll & say you didn't see anything there, makes me want to convince you your mistaken.
So please forgive me, I am not trying to distract from your story.
IMO,
someone tried to kill JFK from behind that little wall in broad daylight.
He missed the killshot, for some reason & for some reason you & the other witnesses in the plaza that day missed his presence.
If he was using a silencer & there was someone letting off fire-crackers at the other end of the street at the same time, then that could help explain it.
What you & others are not taking into account(when dismissing a shooter in BDMs' position) is that each shooter was probably part of a group of two or three all firing at the same time.
Being spotted or even getting away was not necessarily in their own hands nor the priority.
I think that having a witness like yourself who believes in the conspiracy, saying that "you don't believe there was a shooter on the north knoll" is, if you'll forgive me, quite a rarity.
Respectfully,
Alan.
I am probably just as convinced a shot came from there as you are that one come from behind you that day.
Let me quote you directly from the thread where you perked my interest in your story;
QUOTE (William Plumlee @ Oct 28 2004, 04:29 PM)
1) I do not believe that there was a shooter anywhere near the north knoll; behind a fence; on a car hood; in the parking lot; behind a wall. I do not care what the "Experts" say. They have not proven their case to me beyond a resonable doubt. That goes for the South Knoll as well as the North Knoll locations.
Today we have better equipment to photo work these pictures. That technique should be applied by professional personal.., example Law enforcement or private corp. that deal with such matters. What I think. What you think. And what the public has been led to think is of no value today.
(2) I do not believe that a professional sniper team would place a shooter that close to the public with a rifle or a pistol. (within twenty five feet of people watching the motorcade and between the personal on the overpass and the kill zone.) If that WAS the case it would have been done by amatures and they would have been caught before they got away from their position.
Although I find your story presented here very believeable, these statements quoted above from that previous thread are a total contradiction to me.
I disagree with almost everything contained in them.
In fact, because you were standing directly across the plaza from the north knoll & say you didn't see anything there, makes me want to convince you your mistaken.
So please forgive me, I am not trying to distract from your story.
IMO,
someone tried to kill JFK from behind that little wall in broad daylight.
He missed the killshot, for some reason & for some reason you & the other witnesses in the plaza that day missed his presence.
If he was using a silencer & there was someone letting off fire-crackers at the other end of the street at the same time, then that could help explain it.
What you & others are not taking into account(when dismissing a shooter in BDMs' position) is that each shooter was probably part of a group of two or three all firing at the same time.
Being spotted or even getting away was not necessarily in their own hands nor the priority.
I think that having a witness like yourself who believes in the conspiracy, saying that "you don't believe there was a shooter on the north knoll" is, if you'll forgive me, quite a rarity.
Respectfully,
Alan.
Alan,
Like you, I am diametrically opposed to Tosh's assertion of there being no North Knoll shooter. However, I do not agree that the shooter would have been in BDM's position, as that location is so clearly shown in the Zapruder film. As you point out, any shooter would have been accompanied by a spotter and perhaps a breakdown person to facilitate the getaway. In such a circumstance, the support team member, whose capture would be more likely than that of the shooter, would subsequently pass a parafin test with regard to firing a rifle, as Oswald did.
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
BDM, IMO, was more likely a spotter keeping spectators away from the shooter's location. As I'm sure you're aware, the idea of BDM being a shooter is necessarily in conflict with adherents of the Badgeman theory. The HSCA wrongfully relied on an extremely flawed ITEK study to show that the gunman seen in plain sight in the following photos would have to have been 9' high from the ground. The primary flaw in the premise of that study is that the shooter in the photos was atop a car, when it can be seen that he is in front of the pergola.
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
The latter Nix frame depicts the moment when the limo had just departed the Plaza and Nix panned back toward the North Knoll. Notice the profile image, following the classic gunman posture, purported to be light and shadow.
Tim
QUOTE (Tim Carroll @ Dec 8 2004, 11:13 PM)
BDM, IMO, was more likely a spotter keeping spectators away from the shooter's location. As I'm sure you're aware, the idea of BDM being a shooter is necessarily in conflict with adherents of the Badgeman theory.
Tim
Tim
John Costellas' scan of Betzner3 gave us the best assassin lookalike seen in any photo or film taken that day.
He's crouched behind a wall in a snipers pose with a flash of white light/smoke infront of his face.
Only his position at the corner of the wall suggests he was a spotter, the details that make up this character in Betzner3 suggest something else.
A sniper, the best looking one we have(imo (obviously)).
Click to view attachment
As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.
For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.
Alan
QUOTE (Alan Healy @ Dec 10 2004, 05:21 PM)
John Costellas' scan of Betzner3 gave us the best assassin lookalike seen in any photo or film taken that day. He's crouched behind a wall in a snipers pose with a flash of white light/smoke infront of his face. Only his position at the corner of the wall suggests he was a spotter, the details that make up this character in Betzner3 suggest something else. A sniper, the best looking one we have(imo (obviously)).
Click to view attachment
As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.
For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.
Alan
Click to view attachment
As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.
For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.
Alan
Alan,
Isn't Badgeman's position supposedly from behind the stockade fence, from an elevated position? Now you have him coming into position after BDM missed? If Badgeman wasn't behind the fence, how could Zapruder have missed him? Why would two shooters take turns from the same spot? Do you believe they were both at the corner of the retaining wall? If so, where was Gordon Arnold?
Click to view attachment
Here is a diagram. Are you saying that Badgeman was a shooter who moved up into Black Dog Man's position?" And that both of them were standing in front of Gordon Arnold and just a few feet from Emmett Hudson?"
Click to view attachment
Tim
QUOTE (Tim Carroll @ Dec 11 2004, 12:38 AM)
QUOTE (Alan Healy @ Dec 10 2004, 05:21 PM)
John Costellas' scan of Betzner3 gave us the best assassin lookalike seen in any photo or film taken that day. He's crouched behind a wall in a snipers pose with a flash of white light/smoke infront of his face. Only his position at the corner of the wall suggests he was a spotter, the details that make up this character in Betzner3 suggest something else. A sniper, the best looking one we have(imo (obviously)).
Click to view attachment
As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.
For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.
Alan
Click to view attachment
As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.
For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.
Alan
Alan,
Isn't Badgeman's position supposedly from behind the stockade fence, from an elevated position? Now you have him coming into position after BDM missed? If Badgeman wasn't behind the fence, how could Zapruder have missed him? Why would two shooters take turns from the same spot? Do you believe they were both at the corner of the retaining wall? If so, where was Gordon Arnold?
Click to view attachment
Here is a diagram. Are you saying that Badgeman was a shooter who moved up into Black Dog Man's position?" And that both of them were standing in front of Gordon Arnold and just a few feet from Emmett Hudson?"
Click to view attachment
Tim
IMO...badgeman was behind the wooden fence, standing on a car bumper.
IMO...blackdogman did not exist. I theorize he was ADDED to hide Gordon Arnold.
(he is only in Willis and Betzner...if there he would have been in Moorman, Zapruder,
Bond, Muchmore, Nix, etc.)
Jack
QUOTE (Jack White @ Dec 10 2004, 10:24 PM)
QUOTE (Tim Carroll @ Dec 11 2004, 12:38 AM)
QUOTE (Alan Healy @ Dec 10 2004, 05:21 PM)
Click to view attachment
As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.
For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.
Alan
Alan,
Isn't Badgeman's position supposedly from behind the stockade fence, from an elevated position? Now you have him coming into position after BDM missed? If Badgeman wasn't behind the fence, how could Zapruder have missed him? Why would two shooters take turns from the same spot? Do you believe they were both at the corner of the retaining wall? If so, where was Gordon Arnold?
Click to view attachment
Here is a diagram. Are you saying that Badgeman was a shooter who moved up into Black Dog Man's position?" And that both of them were standing in front of Gordon Arnold and just a few feet from Emmett Hudson?"
Click to view attachment
Tim
IMO...badgeman was behind the wooden fence, standing on a car bumper.
IMO...blackdogman did not exist. I theorize he was ADDED to hide Gordon Arnold.
(he is only in Willis and Betzner...if there he would have been in Moorman, Zapruder,
Bond, Muchmore, Nix, etc.)
Jack
QUOTE (Tim Carroll @ Dec 11 2004, 01:38 AM)
QUOTE (Alan Healy @ Dec 10 2004, 05:21 PM)
John Costellas' scan of Betzner3 gave us the best assassin lookalike seen in any photo or film taken that day. He's crouched behind a wall in a snipers pose with a flash of white light/smoke infront of his face. Only his position at the corner of the wall suggests he was a spotter, the details that make up this character in Betzner3 suggest something else. A sniper, the best looking one we have(imo (obviously)).
Click to view attachment
As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.
For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.
Alan
Click to view attachment
As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.
For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.
Alan
Alan,
Isn't Badgeman's position supposedly from behind the stockade fence, from an elevated position? Now you have him coming into position after BDM missed? If Badgeman wasn't behind the fence, how could Zapruder have missed him? Why would two shooters take turns from the same spot? Do you believe they were both at the corner of the retaining wall? If so, where was Gordon Arnold?
Click to view attachment
Here is a diagram. Are you saying that Badgeman was a shooter who moved up into Black Dog Man's position?" And that both of them were standing in front of Gordon Arnold and just a few feet from Emmett Hudson?"
Click to view attachment
Tim
QUOTE (Tim Carroll @ Dec 11 2004, 01:38 AM)
QUOTE (Alan Healy @ Dec 10 2004, 05:21 PM)
John Costellas' scan of Betzner3 gave us the best assassin lookalike seen in any photo or film taken that day. He's crouched behind a wall in a snipers pose with a flash of white light/smoke infront of his face. Only his position at the corner of the wall suggests he was a spotter, the details that make up this character in Betzner3 suggest something else. A sniper, the best looking one we have(imo (obviously)).
Click to view attachment
As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.
For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.
Alan
Click to view attachment
As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.
For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.
Alan
Alan,
Isn't Badgeman's position supposedly from behind the stockade fence, from an elevated position? Now you have him coming into position after BDM missed? If Badgeman wasn't behind the fence, how could Zapruder have missed him? Why would two shooters take turns from the same spot? Do you believe they were both at the corner of the retaining wall? If so, where was Gordon Arnold?
Here is a diagram. Are you saying that Badgeman was a shooter who moved up into Black Dog Man's position?" And that both of them were standing in front of Gordon Arnold and just a few feet from Emmett Hudson?"
Tim
Yes, as I said in the post above;
For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.
Zapruder doesn't film the wall for at least five seconds after the head shot.
The man standing next to Hudson has fled & is not seen, why would you expect to see an assassin?
As for "why", why not?
Maybe the area behind the fence was crowded, how am I supposed to know why?
As for Gordon Arnold, as I have gone over hundreds of times @ Lancer, he wasn't there IMO!
You can see from the films & photos that dispite the shots coming from behind him, Hudson doesn't even once look in that direction.
Now matter how many people ran to the knoll & how many people thought shots came from that area, it mattered not a jot to the official outcome. Maybe the shooters knew this.
Now I think this is beginning to distract from the thread, so.....help me out.
Alan
QUOTE (Jack White @ Dec 11 2004, 06:24 AM)
IMO...badgeman was behind the wooden fence, standing on a car bumper.
IMO...blackdogman did not exist. I theorize he was ADDED to hide Gordon Arnold.
(he is only in Willis and Betzner...if there he would have been in Moorman, Zapruder,
Bond, Muchmore, Nix, etc.)
Jack
IMO...blackdogman did not exist. I theorize he was ADDED to hide Gordon Arnold.
(he is only in Willis and Betzner...if there he would have been in Moorman, Zapruder,
Bond, Muchmore, Nix, etc.)
Jack
I except the idea of blackdogman being added as a good possibility but at this time I lean towards him being a shooter, I can't help it, it looks too convincing to me.
Let's see what Tim thinks about this addition idea first anyway
There is something in Moorman, Muchmore & Nix.
Nix even has support for Badgeman being behind the wall, not the fence.
Alan
[quote=Tim Carroll,Dec 11 2004, 01:38 AM]
Isn't Badgeman's position supposedly from behind the stockade fence, from an elevated position? Now you have him coming into position after BDM missed? If Badgeman wasn't behind the fence, how could Zapruder have missed him? Why would two shooters take turns from the same spot? Do you believe they were both at the corner of the retaining wall?
Are you saying that Badgeman was a shooter who moved up into Black Dog Man's position?" And that both of them were standing in front of Gordon Arnold and just a few feet from Emmett Hudson?"
Tim
_______________________________________________________________
[quote=Alan Healy,Dec 10 2004, 05:21 PM]John Costellas' scan of Betzner3 gave us the best assassin lookalike seen in any photo or film taken that day. He's crouched behind a wall in a snipers pose with a flash of white light/smoke infront of his face. Only his position at the corner of the wall suggests he was a spotter, the details that make up this character in Betzner3 suggest something else. A sniper, the best looking one we have(imo (obviously)).
As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.
For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.
Maybe the area behind the fence was crowded, how am I supposed to know why?
Alan
_______________________________________________________________
Alan,
Apparently you believe that the area at the corner of the retaining wall was fairly "crowded."
You say: "There is something in Moorman, Muchmore & Nix. Nix even has support for Badgeman being behind the wall, not the fence."
I would like to see the evidence of Badgeman in Nix and Muchmore. All of the versions I've seen of Muchmore cut off the top that would show the area above the retaining wall. I've never seen evidence of Badgeman in Nix. We don't need to revisit Moorman on that one.
Tim
Isn't Badgeman's position supposedly from behind the stockade fence, from an elevated position? Now you have him coming into position after BDM missed? If Badgeman wasn't behind the fence, how could Zapruder have missed him? Why would two shooters take turns from the same spot? Do you believe they were both at the corner of the retaining wall?
Are you saying that Badgeman was a shooter who moved up into Black Dog Man's position?" And that both of them were standing in front of Gordon Arnold and just a few feet from Emmett Hudson?"
Tim
_______________________________________________________________
[quote=Alan Healy,Dec 10 2004, 05:21 PM]John Costellas' scan of Betzner3 gave us the best assassin lookalike seen in any photo or film taken that day. He's crouched behind a wall in a snipers pose with a flash of white light/smoke infront of his face. Only his position at the corner of the wall suggests he was a spotter, the details that make up this character in Betzner3 suggest something else. A sniper, the best looking one we have(imo (obviously)).
As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.
For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.
Maybe the area behind the fence was crowded, how am I supposed to know why?
Alan
_______________________________________________________________
Alan,
Apparently you believe that the area at the corner of the retaining wall was fairly "crowded."
You say: "There is something in Moorman, Muchmore & Nix. Nix even has support for Badgeman being behind the wall, not the fence."
I would like to see the evidence of Badgeman in Nix and Muchmore. All of the versions I've seen of Muchmore cut off the top that would show the area above the retaining wall. I've never seen evidence of Badgeman in Nix. We don't need to revisit Moorman on that one.
Tim
QUOTE (Tim Carroll @ Dec 11 2004, 06:20 PM)
Apparently you believe that the area at the corner of the retaining wall was fairly "crowded."
You say: "There is something in Moorman, Muchmore & Nix. Nix even has support for Badgeman being behind the wall, not the fence."
I would like to see the evidence of Badgeman in Nix and Muchmore. All of the versions I've seen of Muchmore cut off the top that would show the area above the retaining wall. I've never seen evidence of Badgeman in Nix. We don't need to revisit Moorman on that one.
Tim
You say: "There is something in Moorman, Muchmore & Nix. Nix even has support for Badgeman being behind the wall, not the fence."
I would like to see the evidence of Badgeman in Nix and Muchmore. All of the versions I've seen of Muchmore cut off the top that would show the area above the retaining wall. I've never seen evidence of Badgeman in Nix. We don't need to revisit Moorman on that one.
Tim
Click to view attachment
Two people do not make a crowd.
Now these two who are seen in Moorman are there in NIX also, they have to be because we are talking about the exact same time.
Only problem is, NIX is pitch black, or so it seems.
Fortunately for us, Robert Groden has worked on a good copy & gave us his findings in "A Case For Conspiracy".
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...804721?v=glance
What he found was, a "flash of light" occuring behind the wall, at the same moment as the head shot.
What one really needs to do is to view this powerful documentary for themselves.
This short GIF at least shows you what I mean(please excuse the pointers, the Z312 reference is not accurate, just a guide to the rough area of time).
Click to view attachment
Now doesn't a flash of light occuring above the wall at the time of the headshot remind you of something???.......
That's all, that's why I say Badgeman may of been behind the wall.
Muchmore does indeed show above the wall, as far as I'm aware just for one frame.
Click to view attachment
If you read again what I said Tim, I didn't say Muchmore had support for Badgeman, only that there is something there that might be Blackdogman.
Alan
QUOTE (Alan Healy @ Dec 11 2004, 03:20 PM)
Two people do not make a crowd.
Alan
Alan
I was referring to your previous statement: "Maybe the area behind the fence was crowded, how am I supposed to know why?" If you don't like the term you brought to the debate, then correct or define the term yourself. Shooters taking turns at the corner of the retaining wall within 4/18s of each other seems like a pretty busy location.
Tim
QUOTE (Tim Carroll @ Dec 12 2004, 10:13 PM)
QUOTE (Alan Healy @ Dec 11 2004, 03:20 PM)
Two people do not make a crowd.
Alan
Alan
I was referring to your previous statement: "Maybe the area behind the fence was crowded, how am I supposed to know why? If you don't like the term you brought to the debate, then correct or define the term yourself. Shooters taking turns at the corner of the retaining wall within 4/18s of each other seems like a pretty busy location.
Tim
Since there is almost six seconds between the throat shot(BDM) & the head shot(BM), please explain to me where the 4/18s comes into play!!!
Alan
QUOTE (Alan Healy @ Dec 12 2004, 02:49 PM)
Since there is almost six seconds between the throat shot(BDM) & the head shot(BM), please explain to me where the 4/18s comes into play!!!
Alan
Alan
Alan,
Thank you, I was a bit slow in catching on that BDM fired the throat shot. That still leaves the issue of Badgeman firing 4/18s after the headshot, according to the muzzle flash supposedly in Moorman, which occurred at Zf-317.
Tim
QUOTE (Tim Carroll @ Dec 13 2004, 12:35 AM)
Thank you, I was a bit slow in catching on that BDM fired the throat shot. That still leaves the issue of Badgeman firing 4/18s after the headshot, according to the muzzle flash supposedly in Moorman, which occurred at Zf-317.
Tim
Tim
Tim. Thank you!
I am not in a position to say Badgeman was behind the wall instead of the fence. I mean, having Blackdogman firing from such an open position is bad enough but having a second guy pop up beside him to take his turn is probably too much for anyone.
The way I see it though, is that this whole area & what happened up there is open too interpretation, there is & should be room for improvement & speculation.
As was pointed out by Don here;
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2529
(Altgens was stood right opposite this area at the time of the shooting & said; )
"Just before the motorcade came by, a number of people suddenly appeared behind the wall on the knoll".
When I asked Altgens if there were any police among the "people" he saw, he replied, "I seem to remember that there were".
***
I personally don't see any reason for Badgeman having to be behind the fence, other than the fact that it's "too open" behind the wall.
Anyway, as far as the headshot goes, I think the source of this shot was some ten-fifteen feet along the fenceline, definitely not from behind the wee wall.
So we have Badgeman & some other guy further west taking a shot within half a second of each other, that's okay in my opinion, maybe these guys seeing the limo come to a stop would of inspired such a coordinated hit.
Alan.
QUOTE (Alan Healy @ Dec 12 2004, 05:34 PM)
Tim. Thank you!
I am not in a position to say Badgeman was behind the wall instead of the fence. I mean, having Blackdogman firing from such an open position is bad enough but having a second guy pop up beside him to take his turn is probably too much for anyone. The way I see it though, is that this whole area & what happened up there is open to interpretation, there is & should be room for improvement & speculation.
I personally don't see any reason for Badgeman having to be behind the fence, other than the fact that it's "too open" behind the wall.
Anyway, as far as the headshot goes, I think the source of this shot was some ten-fifteen feet along the fenceline, definitely not from behind the wee wall.
So we have Badgeman & some other guy further west taking a shot within half a second of each other, that's okay in my opinion, maybe these guys seeing the limo come to a stop would of inspired such a coordinated hit.
Alan.
I am not in a position to say Badgeman was behind the wall instead of the fence. I mean, having Blackdogman firing from such an open position is bad enough but having a second guy pop up beside him to take his turn is probably too much for anyone. The way I see it though, is that this whole area & what happened up there is open to interpretation, there is & should be room for improvement & speculation.
I personally don't see any reason for Badgeman having to be behind the fence, other than the fact that it's "too open" behind the wall.
Anyway, as far as the headshot goes, I think the source of this shot was some ten-fifteen feet along the fenceline, definitely not from behind the wee wall.
So we have Badgeman & some other guy further west taking a shot within half a second of each other, that's okay in my opinion, maybe these guys seeing the limo come to a stop would of inspired such a coordinated hit.
Alan.
Alan,
I did discuss with Bob Groden what happened to Black Dog Man between the moment of the Altgens photo and the moment of the Grassy Knoll/headshot photos, when he no longer appears at the retaining wall corner. It's very important to me that I not in any way mischaracterize what he said, but basically it was that Black Dog Man got out of the way during that interim. This explanation would accomodate the notion that BDM fired the throat shot, and that Badgeman could have fired at the moment of the Moorman photo. There is still the pesky detail that Badgeman fired 4/18s after the headshot, but that doesn't negate that someone could have fired the headshot from the South Knoll or from the the HSCA location, approximately 8' west of the corner of the stockade fence.
As for your statement: "The way I see it though, is that this whole area & what happened up there is open to interpretation; there is & should be room for improvement & speculation." I couldn't agree more. I am not a photogrammertist and have requested but not yet obtained assistance from someone with the necessary expertise. Jack White's very clear Nix frame (the still colorized one with the caption about cartop man not being there anymore than Zapruder and Sitzman are there) is an example of the kind of work that needs to be done. Unfortunately, in Jack's case, his argument is that since both the Zapruder and Nix films are faked, there's no reason to waste time on them.
Tim
E-mail received from Tosh Plumlee, October 24, 2005:
"...Getaway pilot Tosh Plumlee:
"...While on the south knoll, Sergio and I were attempting to evaluate the most logical places where shooters might be located, but everything was confused, the timing was off, team members were late getting into position. They were not where they were supposed to be and the limited radio contacts that we had with them were not working, or spotty at best. It was soon after our arrival that the motorcade arrived. When the shots rang out, I had the impression of 4 or 5 shots, with one being fired from behind and to my left on the South Knoll, near the underpass and south parking lot. While leaving via the south side of the underpass near the train tracks, Sergio and I smelled gunpowder...."
This was told to authorities many times over the years (ref; 1964 Warren; Again in 1975 just before the HSCA was formed; Again in1978 HSCA investigators; Again in Aug of 1980 to Bernard Fensterwald Jr and Gary Shaw, Denver Colorado; Again in 1990 to Senator Gary Hart; Again in 1991 to Senator Kerry's investigators, John Winer and Dick McCall). It was 'Classified Top Secret Committee Sensitive'.
Records of the early meetings of 1964 are still in the files of inmate #17581 Colorado State Reformatory as well as the personal notes and recordings of Warden Wayne K Patterson's Estate.
This information was first told in detail to SAC Scott Warner Denver Colorado FBI OO (Office of Origin). In April 1964 at the Denver county jail. It was told again to the Secret Service James Tucker and Bruce McDonald and Scott Warner of the Denver FBI (along with a Paul Lee of the Denver CIA contacts Div, Lowery Air Force Base, Denver, Colorado who was also present at the Colorado State Reformatory meeting located at Buna Vista Colorado in reference to inmate #17581, William Robert Plumlee. Also present was Wayne K Patterson Warden of the Colorado State Reformatory. This information was sent to the Warren investigations. However, for whatever reasons the information was lost and no followup was done as stated by Scott Warner to the HSCA before he died.
In August of 1975 this same information was given to Rick Feeney, Robert Marrow and Congressman Thomas Downing in Phoenix Arizona, Sgt, Ray Lamberson Arizona Department of Public Safety of Senator Goldwater's Staff as well as Sgt. Ed Salem of the Phoenix Org. Crime Detail were also present at another meeting in Phoenix (a meeting and taping PHX ORG Crime Detail offices).
Why has this information and the proof thereof been hidden from the public? Because it is still Classified and proves the work of CIA operatives and military personal operational at the time.
However, alt records can be found at Denver Colorado and Austin Texas at Camp Maybre, Texas National Guard.... They are still there for anyone to obtain. Why has this not been done? Jay Harrison did find some of the information there after I pointed it out. Soon thereafter his home was broken into (ask Dawn about this). He was in process of checking Denver public records when he died.
If I got these documents and released them then I have released classified information for I was an operative in that operation and I am still under that directive. However if someone else obtained these classified records from an alt source then ???? But for whatever reasons, nobody seems to want to do that.
Now I am told that the information is old stuff and has been checked ... but there is no record of anyone going into those Denver files except Peter Lemkin in 1991 and his files in CA were stolen when his home on Solado Beach was broken into.... Ask Jim Marrs about this.
Now do you know why I do not continue with any of this???? Its all to no purpose, because my information will knock the hell out of the GPH and other Special Interest BS that has been planted out there in the name of TRUTH.... Why has so much been said about me when the information I have pointed to or provided has never been proved or researched?
Just thought I would point this out to you ... but I do not intend to get involved again. It all becomes for Special interest and profiteers and if I do not support their projects, books, DVD's, and theories then that means I am not a creditable source. Its a stacked deck againest truth.
Get the documents and information and let it stand on its own merits. You know where to go now. Now do your work. I have done mine.
Have a good one Friend
Tosh
"...Getaway pilot Tosh Plumlee:
"...While on the south knoll, Sergio and I were attempting to evaluate the most logical places where shooters might be located, but everything was confused, the timing was off, team members were late getting into position. They were not where they were supposed to be and the limited radio contacts that we had with them were not working, or spotty at best. It was soon after our arrival that the motorcade arrived. When the shots rang out, I had the impression of 4 or 5 shots, with one being fired from behind and to my left on the South Knoll, near the underpass and south parking lot. While leaving via the south side of the underpass near the train tracks, Sergio and I smelled gunpowder...."
This was told to authorities many times over the years (ref; 1964 Warren; Again in 1975 just before the HSCA was formed; Again in1978 HSCA investigators; Again in Aug of 1980 to Bernard Fensterwald Jr and Gary Shaw, Denver Colorado; Again in 1990 to Senator Gary Hart; Again in 1991 to Senator Kerry's investigators, John Winer and Dick McCall). It was 'Classified Top Secret Committee Sensitive'.
Records of the early meetings of 1964 are still in the files of inmate #17581 Colorado State Reformatory as well as the personal notes and recordings of Warden Wayne K Patterson's Estate.
This information was first told in detail to SAC Scott Warner Denver Colorado FBI OO (Office of Origin). In April 1964 at the Denver county jail. It was told again to the Secret Service James Tucker and Bruce McDonald and Scott Warner of the Denver FBI (along with a Paul Lee of the Denver CIA contacts Div, Lowery Air Force Base, Denver, Colorado who was also present at the Colorado State Reformatory meeting located at Buna Vista Colorado in reference to inmate #17581, William Robert Plumlee. Also present was Wayne K Patterson Warden of the Colorado State Reformatory. This information was sent to the Warren investigations. However, for whatever reasons the information was lost and no followup was done as stated by Scott Warner to the HSCA before he died.
In August of 1975 this same information was given to Rick Feeney, Robert Marrow and Congressman Thomas Downing in Phoenix Arizona, Sgt, Ray Lamberson Arizona Department of Public Safety of Senator Goldwater's Staff as well as Sgt. Ed Salem of the Phoenix Org. Crime Detail were also present at another meeting in Phoenix (a meeting and taping PHX ORG Crime Detail offices).
Why has this information and the proof thereof been hidden from the public? Because it is still Classified and proves the work of CIA operatives and military personal operational at the time.
However, alt records can be found at Denver Colorado and Austin Texas at Camp Maybre, Texas National Guard.... They are still there for anyone to obtain. Why has this not been done? Jay Harrison did find some of the information there after I pointed it out. Soon thereafter his home was broken into (ask Dawn about this). He was in process of checking Denver public records when he died.
If I got these documents and released them then I have released classified information for I was an operative in that operation and I am still under that directive. However if someone else obtained these classified records from an alt source then ???? But for whatever reasons, nobody seems to want to do that.
Now I am told that the information is old stuff and has been checked ... but there is no record of anyone going into those Denver files except Peter Lemkin in 1991 and his files in CA were stolen when his home on Solado Beach was broken into.... Ask Jim Marrs about this.
Now do you know why I do not continue with any of this???? Its all to no purpose, because my information will knock the hell out of the GPH and other Special Interest BS that has been planted out there in the name of TRUTH.... Why has so much been said about me when the information I have pointed to or provided has never been proved or researched?
Just thought I would point this out to you ... but I do not intend to get involved again. It all becomes for Special interest and profiteers and if I do not support their projects, books, DVD's, and theories then that means I am not a creditable source. Its a stacked deck againest truth.
Get the documents and information and let it stand on its own merits. You know where to go now. Now do your work. I have done mine.
Have a good one Friend
Tosh
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