Although we don't know if rifle CE 2766 which allegedly belonged to LHO was actually fired on 11/22/63, we must accept that the rifling marks on CE399 and at least one of the fragments said to have been found in the Presidential Limo had been fired "at some time" thru this rifle barrel. This as, stated elsewhere, could have occured on 11/22/63 or at any date prior to this and the bullets could have been saved for later evidence planting. As a matter of fact the near pristine condition of CE399 could have resulted from the bullet having been fired into a liquid or into a soft fiber.
The question that I ask is in the light of Ozzie's satement that he did not own a rifle, a statement which I think was was subjected to a voice stress analization test, he perhaps could technically have been telling the truth. Is it not possibe that he sold this weapon? Maybe to Seymour, Ferrie, Wes Frazier or to countless other suspected conspiracists? When was the last time that Marina claimed to actually see the rifle?
The reason that this scenario came to mind is if the gun were stolen from the Paine garage, who knew that it was their? I don"t think that tight lipped Ozzie would have broadcast it. It is unlikely that Marina would have told Morman Ruth Paine. Therefore if it had been removed from the garage, it seems that it could not have been so without the knowledge of Ruth, Marina or LHO.
In lieu of substantial testimony of other TSBD employees who observed LHO enter work without a large package on 11/22/63, I have for some time questioned the testimonies of Wes Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae. We must remember that they were close neighbors of the Paines. We must also remember that Ruth, Wes and Linnie Mae were the only way that Oz had procured his job at the TSBD. Additionally, it was the testimonies of Marina, Ruth, Wes and Linnie Mae that initially nailed LHO to the cross. Their seems to be an enormous amount of circumstantial and not so circumstantial evidence here. In my opinion--Too Much!
Full Version: "I don't own a rifle---"
In lieu of substantial testimony of other TSBD employees who observed LHO enter work without a large package on 11/22/63, I have for some time questioned the testimonies of Wes Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae. We must remember that they were close neighbors of the Paines. We must also remember that Ruth, Wes and Linnie Mae were the only way that Oz had procured his job at the TSBD. Additionally, it was the testimonies of Marina, Ruth, Wes and Linnie Mae that initially nailed LHO to the cross. Their seems to be an enormous amount of circumstantial and not so circumstantial evidence here. In my opinion--Too Much!
[/quote]
I to find this evidence disturbing. Oswald leaves Frazier's car,walks though
the car park, into the lobby of the TSBD,& gets to his place of work, all the
time carrying a large brown paper sack that positively screams RIFLE,
yet nobody see's it!!!
It must be remembered though, that both Wes Frazier & his sister refused
to identify the sack shown to them by the DPD & W/C. Both claimed it was
9ins to a foot to long. & stuck to this despite much pressure to change their
testimony.
[/quote]
I to find this evidence disturbing. Oswald leaves Frazier's car,walks though
the car park, into the lobby of the TSBD,& gets to his place of work, all the
time carrying a large brown paper sack that positively screams RIFLE,
yet nobody see's it!!!
It must be remembered though, that both Wes Frazier & his sister refused
to identify the sack shown to them by the DPD & W/C. Both claimed it was
9ins to a foot to long. & stuck to this despite much pressure to change their
testimony.
I don't recall if I have posted this here before or not, but I do question if Linnie Mae Randle actually saw all that she claimed to have seen.
WC Testimony Of Linnie Mae Randle
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/randlelm.htm
Excerpts of Testimony
Mr Ball
Mr. BALL. He walked over to your house, did he?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I saw him as he started crossing the street. Where he come from then I couldn't say.
Mr. BALL. You don't know where he went from that?
Mrs. RANDLE. Where he went?
Mr. BALL. Did you see him go to the car?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did he do?
Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying the package down so I closed the door. I didn't recognize him as he walked across my carport and I at that moment I wondered who was fixing to come to my back door so I opened the door slightly and saw that it--I assumed he was getting in the car but he didn't, so he come back and stood on the driveway.
Mr. BALL. He put the package in the car.
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I don't know if he put it on the seat or on the floor but I just know he put it in the back.
Senator Cooper
Senator COOPER. On that point--did you see Lee Oswald place the package in the automobile?
Mrs. RANDLE. In the automobile. I do not know if he put it on the seat or on the floor.
Senator COOPER. I mean did you see him throw open the. door?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. When he placed the package in there do you remember whether he used one hand or two?
Mrs. RANDLE. No; because I only opened the door briefly and what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked.
Mr Jenner
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, could I ask--how far away were you? You were at the kitchen door and the automobile was in the driveway, what was the distance between yourself and Mr. Oswald?
Mrs. RANDLE. Sir, I don't know. The carport will take care of two cars, and then Wesley's car was on the other side of the carport so that would be three car lengths plus in between space.
Mr. JENNER. Car widths?
Mrs. RANDLE. Car widths, excuse me.
______________________________________
Linnie could have seen LHO cross the empty lot and walk towards her carport, from her small kitchen window and could have seen IF he was carrying a large package.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0097b.htm
She thought he went into her carport and she opened the kitchen door to peek out, (bottom photo)
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0096b.htm
What Linnie could see when she looked out her kitchen door (top photo)
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0097a.htm
Where Wesley Frazier actually parked his car (bottom photo)
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0097a.htm
IMHO... Linnie Mae Randel could have seen LHO approach her house with
(or without) a package, but she I don't think she could have seen him place the package in Wesleys car, as she testified.
Linnie's mother, Essie Mae Williams testified in an FBI Report to SA Henry
Oliver on 12/10/63,,,that she also watched LHO approah their house from their kitchen. and he was NOT carrying a brown bag or anything else. I have not yet located Essie's testimony, to verify it.
Dixie
WC Testimony Of Linnie Mae Randle
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/randlelm.htm
Excerpts of Testimony
Mr Ball
Mr. BALL. He walked over to your house, did he?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I saw him as he started crossing the street. Where he come from then I couldn't say.
Mr. BALL. You don't know where he went from that?
Mrs. RANDLE. Where he went?
Mr. BALL. Did you see him go to the car?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did he do?
Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was laying the package down so I closed the door. I didn't recognize him as he walked across my carport and I at that moment I wondered who was fixing to come to my back door so I opened the door slightly and saw that it--I assumed he was getting in the car but he didn't, so he come back and stood on the driveway.
Mr. BALL. He put the package in the car.
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I don't know if he put it on the seat or on the floor but I just know he put it in the back.
Senator Cooper
Senator COOPER. On that point--did you see Lee Oswald place the package in the automobile?
Mrs. RANDLE. In the automobile. I do not know if he put it on the seat or on the floor.
Senator COOPER. I mean did you see him throw open the. door?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. When he placed the package in there do you remember whether he used one hand or two?
Mrs. RANDLE. No; because I only opened the door briefly and what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked.
Mr Jenner
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, could I ask--how far away were you? You were at the kitchen door and the automobile was in the driveway, what was the distance between yourself and Mr. Oswald?
Mrs. RANDLE. Sir, I don't know. The carport will take care of two cars, and then Wesley's car was on the other side of the carport so that would be three car lengths plus in between space.
Mr. JENNER. Car widths?
Mrs. RANDLE. Car widths, excuse me.
______________________________________
Linnie could have seen LHO cross the empty lot and walk towards her carport, from her small kitchen window and could have seen IF he was carrying a large package.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0097b.htm
She thought he went into her carport and she opened the kitchen door to peek out, (bottom photo)
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0096b.htm
What Linnie could see when she looked out her kitchen door (top photo)
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0097a.htm
Where Wesley Frazier actually parked his car (bottom photo)
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0097a.htm
IMHO... Linnie Mae Randel could have seen LHO approach her house with
(or without) a package, but she I don't think she could have seen him place the package in Wesleys car, as she testified.
Linnie's mother, Essie Mae Williams testified in an FBI Report to SA Henry
Oliver on 12/10/63,,,that she also watched LHO approah their house from their kitchen. and he was NOT carrying a brown bag or anything else. I have not yet located Essie's testimony, to verify it.
Dixie
Dixie wrote: "Linnie's mother, Essie Mae Williams testified in an FBI Report to SA Henry Oliver on 12/10/63,,,that she also watched LHO approah their house from their kitchen. and he was NOT carrying a brown bag or anything else. I have not yet located Essie's testimony, to verify it."
Dixie
Dixie, this interview is news to me and probably to many others. Can't wait to see your next post.
Ray
"Do not block the way of inquiry" C.S. Peirce
Dixie
Dixie, this interview is news to me and probably to many others. Can't wait to see your next post.
Ray
"Do not block the way of inquiry" C.S. Peirce
Dixie,
According to Mary Ferrell's database, it's on CD 205. If you have access to the Warren Commission documents, you might find it there.
Steve Thomas
QUOTE (Dixie Dea @ Apr 12 2005, 07:29 PM)
Linnie's mother, Essie Mae Williams testified in an FBI Report to SA Henry
Oliver on 12/10/63,,,that she also watched LHO approah their house from their kitchen. and he was NOT carrying a brown bag or anything else. I have not yet located Essie's testimony, to verify it.
Dixie
Oliver on 12/10/63,,,that she also watched LHO approah their house from their kitchen. and he was NOT carrying a brown bag or anything else. I have not yet located Essie's testimony, to verify it.
Dixie
According to Mary Ferrell's database, it's on CD 205. If you have access to the Warren Commission documents, you might find it there.
Steve Thomas
QUOTE (Steve Thomas @ Apr 13 2005, 03:20 PM)
Dixie,
According to Mary Ferrell's database, it's on CD 205. If you have access to the Warren Commission documents, you might find it there.
Steve Thomas
QUOTE (Dixie Dea @ Apr 12 2005, 07:29 PM)
Linnie's mother, Essie Mae Williams testified in an FBI Report to SA Henry
Oliver on 12/10/63,,,that she also watched LHO approah their house from their kitchen. and he was NOT carrying a brown bag or anything else. I have not yet located Essie's testimony, to verify it.
Dixie
Oliver on 12/10/63,,,that she also watched LHO approah their house from their kitchen. and he was NOT carrying a brown bag or anything else. I have not yet located Essie's testimony, to verify it.
Dixie
According to Mary Ferrell's database, it's on CD 205. If you have access to the Warren Commission documents, you might find it there.
Steve Thomas
Does anyone else think it is odd that no one asked for or recorded the actual address of Wesley Buell Frazier's mother, Essie Mae Williams in Huntington, TX on the record, or even inquired as to Essie Mae's husband's name? Her husband was Wesley's step-father, probably for most of his formative years, and that Huntington address was also Wesley's permanent, or at least his immediately prior address.
Wesley was born in 1944, His sister Linnie Mae Randle in 1933, and there were other siblings born in between those years. Their father, Elbert Frazier and a woman named Mertie Brown, aka "Myrtie Louise Brown" had a child less than four years later, Charles Eunice Frazier, DOB Aug. 2, 1948. (A daughter was also born to the couple in 1951, and Wesley's father died in Harris Cty., TX in 1993.)
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=147
In the FBI document linked immediately above. "Linnie" is spelled "Lennie", and the address displays as "2439" West 5th.
The WC transcript of Linnie Mae Randle's testimony displays "2438 Westfield" as the address.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=148
Observe that the Irving, TX address in the above document is not the correct street number, but probably not intentional.
If the FBI asked Wesley and his mother for ID documents, they would probably not display an Irving, TX address.
QUOTE
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol2/page211.php
....Mr. Ball.
You call yourself Buell or Wesley?
Mr. Frazier.
I go by Wesley.
Mr. Ball.
Well, Wesley, what is your age?
Mr. Frazier.
Sir?
Mr. Ball.
What is your age?
Mr. Frazier.
Nineteen.
Mr. Ball.
Where do you live?
Mr. Frazier.
For the time being I am living in Irving now.
Mr. Ball.
Irving, Tex.
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
What is the address where you live?
Mr. Frazier.
2439 West Fifth Street.
Mr. Ball.
Did you live there in November 1963?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. Ball.
And who lives in that house with you?
Mr. Frazier.
My sister and brother-in-law and their three children.
Mr. Ball.
Will you state their names, your sister's name?
Mr. Frazier.
Linnie Mae Randle and my brother-in-law. I believe his real name is William Edward Randle. We call him Bill. They have three little girls, Diana, Patricia and Caroline Sue.
Mr. Ball.
Where does your mother live?
Mr. Frazier.
She lives in Huntsville.
Mr. Ball.
Where is that?
Mr. Frazier.
That is about 200 miles south of Dallas there.
Mr. Ball.
What is the name of the town?
Mr. Frazier.
Town, you mean where my mother lives? Huntsville.
Mr. Ball.
Huntsville?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; that is about, it is about 70, 80 miles north of Houston.
Mr. Ball.
What is your mother's name?
Mr. Frazier.
Essie Mae Williams.
Mr. Ball.
Was she visiting you and your sister sometime in November 1963?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; she was.
Mr. Ball.
How long was she there?
Mr. Frazier.
She was there for, I believe, for a period of about 4 or 5 weeks because my stepfather was with her and he got sick and they had to put him in the hospital and he was in the hospital 3 or 4 weeks, somewhere, 4 or 5 weeks because they were there a week before he got sick.
Mr. Ball.
Then on November 21 and 22, living with you in this residence at Irving, Tex., were your mother, Mrs. Williams, and your sister, Linnie Mae Randle?
....Mr. Ball.
You call yourself Buell or Wesley?
Mr. Frazier.
I go by Wesley.
Mr. Ball.
Well, Wesley, what is your age?
Mr. Frazier.
Sir?
Mr. Ball.
What is your age?
Mr. Frazier.
Nineteen.
Mr. Ball.
Where do you live?
Mr. Frazier.
For the time being I am living in Irving now.
Mr. Ball.
Irving, Tex.
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
What is the address where you live?
Mr. Frazier.
2439 West Fifth Street.
Mr. Ball.
Did you live there in November 1963?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. Ball.
And who lives in that house with you?
Mr. Frazier.
My sister and brother-in-law and their three children.
Mr. Ball.
Will you state their names, your sister's name?
Mr. Frazier.
Linnie Mae Randle and my brother-in-law. I believe his real name is William Edward Randle. We call him Bill. They have three little girls, Diana, Patricia and Caroline Sue.
Mr. Ball.
Where does your mother live?
Mr. Frazier.
She lives in Huntsville.
Mr. Ball.
Where is that?
Mr. Frazier.
That is about 200 miles south of Dallas there.
Mr. Ball.
What is the name of the town?
Mr. Frazier.
Town, you mean where my mother lives? Huntsville.
Mr. Ball.
Huntsville?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; that is about, it is about 70, 80 miles north of Houston.
Mr. Ball.
What is your mother's name?
Mr. Frazier.
Essie Mae Williams.
Mr. Ball.
Was she visiting you and your sister sometime in November 1963?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; she was.
Mr. Ball.
How long was she there?
Mr. Frazier.
She was there for, I believe, for a period of about 4 or 5 weeks because my stepfather was with her and he got sick and they had to put him in the hospital and he was in the hospital 3 or 4 weeks, somewhere, 4 or 5 weeks because they were there a week before he got sick.
Mr. Ball.
Then on November 21 and 22, living with you in this residence at Irving, Tex., were your mother, Mrs. Williams, and your sister, Linnie Mae Randle?
QUOTE (J. Raymond Carroll @ Apr 13 2005, 12:54 PM)
Dixie wrote: "Linnie's mother, Essie Mae Williams testified in an FBI Report to SA Henry Oliver on 12/10/63,,,that she also watched LHO approah their house from their kitchen. and he was NOT carrying a brown bag or anything else. I have not yet located Essie's testimony, to verify it."
Dixie
Dixie, this interview is news to me and probably to many others. Can't wait to see your next post.
Ray
"Do not block the way of inquiry" C.S. Peirce
Dixie
Dixie, this interview is news to me and probably to many others. Can't wait to see your next post.
Ray
"Do not block the way of inquiry" C.S. Peirce
Ray, the interview is here: http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=148
Essie Williams does not say "he was NOT carrying a brown bag or anything else" as stated by Dixie.
She actually says "She did not see this person carrying anything" and that she "only got a quick glimpse of Oswald" big difference isn't it. Misquoting testimony, albeit by accident, does not help the cause.
Denis.....
Misquting tesrtimony? Why be so insulting??? Even thouggh, I posted this four years ago, no one has
mentioned finding Essie's testimony.
.
I was only qyoting what I have read in several JFK books...and not from my own made-up words. In fact, I also specifically mentioned that I had not been able to find Essie's testimony to verify it. I had searched for it, for some time, even before the MFF site ever came along.. I had no idea it was now at her website, since I am unable to ever access that website. So, I am still only able to accept what ypu say and not from reading her testimony with my own eyes.
Your apparently correct info, is actually welcomn to me, after tryimg to find it for so long and to finally read what she evidently did actually say. For that part, I do appreciate your help. But your own misleading inferences against me is not necessary and is unwelcome
Dixie
Misquting tesrtimony? Why be so insulting??? Even thouggh, I posted this four years ago, no one has
mentioned finding Essie's testimony.
.
I was only qyoting what I have read in several JFK books...and not from my own made-up words. In fact, I also specifically mentioned that I had not been able to find Essie's testimony to verify it. I had searched for it, for some time, even before the MFF site ever came along.. I had no idea it was now at her website, since I am unable to ever access that website. So, I am still only able to accept what ypu say and not from reading her testimony with my own eyes.
Your apparently correct info, is actually welcomn to me, after tryimg to find it for so long and to finally read what she evidently did actually say. For that part, I do appreciate your help. But your own misleading inferences against me is not necessary and is unwelcome
Dixie
QUOTE (Dixie Dea @ Sep 6 2009, 10:11 PM)
Denis.....
Misquting tesrtimony? Why be so insulting??? Even thouggh, I posted this four years ago, no one has
mentioned finding Essie's testimony.
.
I was only qyoting what I have read in several JFK books...and not from my own made-up words. In fact, I also specifically mentioned that I had not been able to find Essie's testimony to verify it. I had searched for it, for some time, even before the MFF site ever came along.. I had no idea it was now at her website, since I am unable to ever access that website. So, I am still only able to accept what ypu say and not from reading her testimony with my own eyes.
Your apparently correct info, is actually welcomn to me, after tryimg to find it for so long and to finally read what she evidently did actually say. For that part, I do appreciate your help. But your own misleading inferences against me is not necessary and is unwelcome
Dixie
Misquting tesrtimony? Why be so insulting??? Even thouggh, I posted this four years ago, no one has
mentioned finding Essie's testimony.
.
I was only qyoting what I have read in several JFK books...and not from my own made-up words. In fact, I also specifically mentioned that I had not been able to find Essie's testimony to verify it. I had searched for it, for some time, even before the MFF site ever came along.. I had no idea it was now at her website, since I am unable to ever access that website. So, I am still only able to accept what ypu say and not from reading her testimony with my own eyes.
Your apparently correct info, is actually welcomn to me, after tryimg to find it for so long and to finally read what she evidently did actually say. For that part, I do appreciate your help. But your own misleading inferences against me is not necessary and is unwelcome
Dixie
No insult was intended, I didn't belive for one second that your misquote was anymore than a mistake, I said as much in my post when I wrote "albeit by accident". Would you have preferred I had not pointed out your misquote? How on Earth can my correction of your mistake be interpreted as a "misleading inferences against me (you)"? I make it a rule never to 'quote' without being able to verify, even if I have read the quote in "several JFK books". I guess we all have different standards of research.
PS If you would care to read the transcript in full let me know, I'll only be to glad to post it. Denis.
Here you go Dixie......
Dennis quote " I make it a rule never to 'quote' without being able to verify, even if I have read the quote in "several JFK books". I guess we all have different standards of research.
Then why add insult to injury..in your last sentence........It does appear your standards are very lacking today in research posting etiquette.....
B.......
Dennis quote " I make it a rule never to 'quote' without being able to verify, even if I have read the quote in "several JFK books". I guess we all have different standards of research.
Then why add insult to injury..in your last sentence........It does appear your standards are very lacking today in research posting etiquette.....
B.......
QUOTE (Bernice Moore @ Sep 6 2009, 11:07 PM)
Here you go Dixie......
Dennis quote " I make it a rule never to 'quote' without being able to verify, even if I have read the quote in "several JFK books". I guess we all have different standards of research.
Then why add insult to injury..in your last sentence........It does appear your standards are very lacking today in research posting etiquette.....
B.......
Dennis quote " I make it a rule never to 'quote' without being able to verify, even if I have read the quote in "several JFK books". I guess we all have different standards of research.
Then why add insult to injury..in your last sentence........It does appear your standards are very lacking today in research posting etiquette.....
B.......
I give as I receive Bernice, where is the "posting etiquette" in Dixie's accusation that I posted "misleading inferences" against her? Read the post, I did no such thing. Dixie misquoted and I corrected the mistake, end of story.
PS "Dennis quote" is a mistake. It should read Denis quote, with one 'N', tut tut, do watch those quotes lol
I give as I receive Bernice, where is the "posting etiquette" in Dixie's accusation that I posted "misleading inferences" against her? Read the post, I did no such thing. Dixie misquoted and I corrected the mistake, end of story.
PS "Dennis quote" is a mistake. It should read Denis quote, with one 'N', tut tut, do watch those quotes lol....
Dennis quote " I make it a rule never to 'quote' without being able to verify, even if I have read the quote in "several JFK books". I guess we all have different standards of research.
I referenced your last line in your previous post......as you are aware or cannot you dicipher..tut tut .....however.....same reference , you.....no matter how it is spelt...we certainly do have different standards of research, most do so kindly,in replying some simply shoot from the hip.....to draw any kind of attention, ok you got it, hope your satisfied......you made your day... tut
B....
PS "Dennis quote" is a mistake. It should read Denis quote, with one 'N', tut tut, do watch those quotes lol....
Dennis quote " I make it a rule never to 'quote' without being able to verify, even if I have read the quote in "several JFK books". I guess we all have different standards of research.
I referenced your last line in your previous post......as you are aware or cannot you dicipher..tut tut .....however.....same reference , you.....no matter how it is spelt...we certainly do have different standards of research, most do so kindly,in replying some simply shoot from the hip.....to draw any kind of attention, ok you got it, hope your satisfied......you made your day... tut
B....
QUOTE (Bernice Moore @ Sep 6 2009, 11:58 PM)
I give as I receive Bernice, where is the "posting etiquette" in Dixie's accusation that I posted "misleading inferences" against her? Read the post, I did no such thing. Dixie misquoted and I corrected the mistake, end of story.
PS "Dennis quote" is a mistake. It should read Denis quote, with one 'N', tut tut, do watch those quotes lol....
Dennis quote " I make it a rule never to 'quote' without being able to verify, even if I have read the quote in "several JFK books". I guess we all have different standards of research.
I referenced your last line in your previous post......as you are aware or cannot you dicipher..tut tut .....however.....same reference , you.....no matter how it is spelt...we certainly do have different standards of research, most do so kindly,in replying some simply shoot from the hip.....to draw any kind of attention, ok you got it, hope your satisfied......you made your day... tut
B....
PS "Dennis quote" is a mistake. It should read Denis quote, with one 'N', tut tut, do watch those quotes lol....
Dennis quote " I make it a rule never to 'quote' without being able to verify, even if I have read the quote in "several JFK books". I guess we all have different standards of research.
I referenced your last line in your previous post......as you are aware or cannot you dicipher..tut tut .....however.....same reference , you.....no matter how it is spelt...we certainly do have different standards of research, most do so kindly,in replying some simply shoot from the hip.....to draw any kind of attention, ok you got it, hope your satisfied......you made your day... tut
B....
Bernice, I really cant take this nonsense seriously enough to argue about it. If you really feel my post violated forum etiquette or forum rules in any way then I suggest you contact a moderator. I'm just too old for internet flaming wars or whatever the expression is...
QUOTE (Denis Pointing @ Sep 6 2009, 02:41 PM)
Ray, the interview is here: http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=148
Thank you Denis, but you were a day late and a dollar short. TOm Scully had already posted this link on this very thread. And note that in posting the link, Mr. Scully saw no need to denigrate the research ability of another member.
QUOTE
Essie Williams does not say "he was NOT carrying a brown bag or anything else" as stated by Dixie.
Thee is insufficient evidence to justify such a dogmatic assertion, because we do NOT have a transcript of her statement, and the Warren Commission never questioned her.
QUOTE
She actually says "She did not see this person carrying anything" and that she "only got a quick glimpse of Oswald" big difference isn't it. Misquoting testimony, albeit by accident, does not help the cause.
You don't know what SHE said.
We do know that tHe FBI report actually says:
QUOTE
She did not see this person carrying anything and stated she could not furnish any information concerning Oswald or the brown bag he SUPPOSEDLY HAD BEEN CARRYING PRIOR TO HER SEEING HIM
If we are to judge by this report, it seems that -- quick glimpse or curious lingering glance, the FBI agents came away with the distinct impression that Oz was not carrying a bulky brown package at the time this witness observed him.
We do not know how long Essie spent looking at this stranger, but we know that she was immediately curious about him, because she asked her son who this man was.
So we know that she saw him and was immediately curious about him, and we know what the FBI agents inferred from their interview with her.
The FBI agents came away with the distinct impression that Oz was not carrying a bulky brown package at the time this witness observed him.
I think Dixie is much closer to the truth here than Mr. Pointing
Bernice
Thanks a bunch for posting that FBI Doc. in regard to Essie Williams. I am pleased to finally read it.
Ray....
You are right, in that we really don't know what Essie said, since it was not her direct words...only what the FBI claimed she said. But it does appear that she didn't lie and attempt to just agree with Wesley and Linnie, to help them out/ ....if she didn't actually see LHO carrying a bag.
Thanks!
Dixie
Thanks a bunch for posting that FBI Doc. in regard to Essie Williams. I am pleased to finally read it.
Ray....
You are right, in that we really don't know what Essie said, since it was not her direct words...only what the FBI claimed she said. But it does appear that she didn't lie and attempt to just agree with Wesley and Linnie, to help them out/ ....if she didn't actually see LHO carrying a bag.
Thanks!
Dixie
QUOTE
The question that I ask is in the light of Ozzie's statement that he did not own a rifle,
He was talking about buying a rifle just prior to leaving NO in Sept, '63 giving the reason that "everyone needs one". He also hinted that lack of ability to own a rifle in Soviet Union was one of the reasons he did not like it there (source, 2001 interview with Ruth Ann Peters nee Kloepfer).
Why would he be talking about needing a rifle and wanting to buy one if he already owned one? Moreover, why was he talking about this at all?
I maintain that the pistol was purchased for a third party (DF Drittal was named as reference on coupon. "dienst fur drittel" is German and translates into "on behalf of a third party").
Was that third party the Dodd Subcommittee looking into the companies that supplied these weapons through the mail? Was it coincidence that a Californian cop on secondment to that subcommittee was the one who steered the investigation toward Klein's?
QUOTE
I have for some time questioned the testimonies of Wes Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae.
Good. It needs questioning. The impression I get from their testimony is that there was little love between the two siblings. Wes said they rarely spoke - Linnie hints that he's an uneducated hick and below her station. They also differ on how Wes got his job. Through her recommendation according to her. Through a tip from an Irving employment agency according to him.
And it was Linnie who dropped Wes in the poo with the cops to begin with...
QUOTE
I don't recall if I have posted this here before or not, but I do question if Linnie Mae Randle actually saw all that she claimed to have seen.
You are correct. She didn't see what she originally hinted she saw, and this part of her testimony virtually is an admission of it:
Senator COOPER. I mean did you see him throw open the. door?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. When he placed the package in there do you remember whether he used one hand or two?
Mrs. RANDLE. No; because I only opened the door briefly and what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked.
So when she says she saw him open the door, what she was really saying was that she assumed he did, because it appears that door was the only one he could open.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...se.433db25.html
Irving buys Paine House, made infamous by Lee Harvey Oswald
03:30 PM CDT on Monday, September 7, 2009
By BRANDON FORMBY / The Dallas Morning News
bformby@dallasnews.com
Autry Lewis stood in front of his Irving home on a November morning waiting for a ride. The man who sometimes stayed at Ruth Paine's house across the street was waiting for his ride, too.
Lewis didn't see what the man grabbed from Paine's garage before he hopped into a friend's car that Friday morning. But Lewis learned from television broadcasts hours later that the man's name was Lee Harvey Oswald.
By then, President John F. Kennedy and Dallas police Officer J.D. Tippit were dead, and the nation was mourning. Oswald was in custody, and the house across the street, at 2515 W. Fifth St., was inextricably linked to one of the most infamous moments in American history.
"Many people aren't aware of all of that," Irving Mayor Herbert Gears said Wednesday, one day before the City Council unanimously agreed to spend $175,000 to buy what's now commonly called the Paine House.
Marina Oswald
Ruth Paine, described as a kindly Quaker woman, took Oswald's estranged wife Marina and their daughter into her house two months before the assassination. The relationship between Paine and the Oswalds was the subject of a Thomas Mallon book, Mrs. Paine's Garage and the Murder of John F. Kennedy.
Paine, who lived in California as late as 2007, could not be reached for comment last week.
Marina Oswald, who has since remarried, did not return phone calls seeking comment.
Shortly after the assassination, Paine told The Dallas Morning News that she invited Marina Oswald to live with her after learning the woman was pregnant with her second child.
"I was sympathetic," Paine told The News. "There was nobody to help her, and I felt she shouldn't be alone. So I invited her, one woman to another, to stay with me."
Lewis and his wife, Priscilla, moved onto the street in 1963, months before the assassination. They met Paine when they first moved in but rarely interacted with her. They typically saw the Oswalds but didn't know their names.
Lee Harvey Oswald spent weeknights in Oak Cliff but typically showed up to the Paine House on Fridays and spent weekends there, visiting his wife and their daughters.
The Oswalds had argued in the days leading up to the assassination.
Marina Oswald told the Warren Commission investigating the assassination that she didn't really suspect anything out of the ordinary when her husband showed up at the Paine House on Nov. 21, 1963 – a Thursday.
They argued again that night when Lee Harvey Oswald begged his wife to move back in with him. She reportedly refused.
Lewis said he sat at his dining room table that night and looked out his home's front windows. He said he could see Oswald fiddling with something in the Paine House garage. But he couldn't see what exactly.
"Had I had a pair of binoculars ..." Lewis said.
And when Oswald grabbed something wrapped in shipping paper from the garage the next morning, Lewis didn't think much of it. Until later that day.
Priscilla Lewis was working at a law firm in Dallas in 1963. She was at lunch with a friend when the waitress came over and told them the president had been shot.
When Priscilla Lewis returned to work, she got a phone call about something happening at the Paine House.
"The neighborhood was crawling with police officers and detectives as soon as it happened," Autry Lewis said.
Out to the garage
When the police showed up at the Paine House and asked Marina Oswald whether her husband had a rifle, she showed them to the garage where he had kept one wrapped in a blanket.
"They opened the blanket, but there was no rifle there," she told the Warren Commission. "Then, of course, I already knew it was Lee."
Marina Oswald and Paine were later fully cleared of any complicity and were considered to be cooperative in the ensuing investigations.
Irving officials said they've been interested in buying the house for about a decade. So when current owner Kimberly Short finally became ready to sell, the city jumped at the opportunity to secure what many see as a historic site – even if its significance is born from tragedy and infamy.
"As unfortunate as that incident was, it's still a very historical moment in the region of Dallas-Fort Worth," said Paul Gooch, Irving's community services director.
Interest remains
Under the agreement, Short is allowed to remain in the house for up to one year. She did not return phone calls seeking comment last week.
In a 2006 interview with The News, Short said she didn't mind the interest that passers-by had in her house. Just as long as they weren't sly about it.
"I know what you're doing," she said at the time. "It doesn't bother me. But don't be sneaky."
The $175,000 price tag the city agreed to pay is well above the $84,000 in value assigned by the Dallas Central Appraisal District. But Gears said $175,000 is a steal even if the city is just now exploring what they want to do with the house.
"Of course, DCAD is not going to include the historical significance of the property," he said.
As Autry Lewis sat on his front porch looking across West Fifth Street last week, he said he wasn't surprised the city made the move. While Dallas' Sixth Floor Museum is a point of national interest, Autry Lewis said the Paine House also still draws its fair share of visitors. Not that he minds too much.
"If I'm out here, I'll talk to them," he said.
Irving buys Paine House, made infamous by Lee Harvey Oswald
03:30 PM CDT on Monday, September 7, 2009
By BRANDON FORMBY / The Dallas Morning News
bformby@dallasnews.com
Autry Lewis stood in front of his Irving home on a November morning waiting for a ride. The man who sometimes stayed at Ruth Paine's house across the street was waiting for his ride, too.
Lewis didn't see what the man grabbed from Paine's garage before he hopped into a friend's car that Friday morning. But Lewis learned from television broadcasts hours later that the man's name was Lee Harvey Oswald.
By then, President John F. Kennedy and Dallas police Officer J.D. Tippit were dead, and the nation was mourning. Oswald was in custody, and the house across the street, at 2515 W. Fifth St., was inextricably linked to one of the most infamous moments in American history.
"Many people aren't aware of all of that," Irving Mayor Herbert Gears said Wednesday, one day before the City Council unanimously agreed to spend $175,000 to buy what's now commonly called the Paine House.
Marina Oswald
Ruth Paine, described as a kindly Quaker woman, took Oswald's estranged wife Marina and their daughter into her house two months before the assassination. The relationship between Paine and the Oswalds was the subject of a Thomas Mallon book, Mrs. Paine's Garage and the Murder of John F. Kennedy.
Paine, who lived in California as late as 2007, could not be reached for comment last week.
Marina Oswald, who has since remarried, did not return phone calls seeking comment.
Shortly after the assassination, Paine told The Dallas Morning News that she invited Marina Oswald to live with her after learning the woman was pregnant with her second child.
"I was sympathetic," Paine told The News. "There was nobody to help her, and I felt she shouldn't be alone. So I invited her, one woman to another, to stay with me."
Lewis and his wife, Priscilla, moved onto the street in 1963, months before the assassination. They met Paine when they first moved in but rarely interacted with her. They typically saw the Oswalds but didn't know their names.
Lee Harvey Oswald spent weeknights in Oak Cliff but typically showed up to the Paine House on Fridays and spent weekends there, visiting his wife and their daughters.
The Oswalds had argued in the days leading up to the assassination.
Marina Oswald told the Warren Commission investigating the assassination that she didn't really suspect anything out of the ordinary when her husband showed up at the Paine House on Nov. 21, 1963 – a Thursday.
They argued again that night when Lee Harvey Oswald begged his wife to move back in with him. She reportedly refused.
Lewis said he sat at his dining room table that night and looked out his home's front windows. He said he could see Oswald fiddling with something in the Paine House garage. But he couldn't see what exactly.
"Had I had a pair of binoculars ..." Lewis said.
And when Oswald grabbed something wrapped in shipping paper from the garage the next morning, Lewis didn't think much of it. Until later that day.
Priscilla Lewis was working at a law firm in Dallas in 1963. She was at lunch with a friend when the waitress came over and told them the president had been shot.
When Priscilla Lewis returned to work, she got a phone call about something happening at the Paine House.
"The neighborhood was crawling with police officers and detectives as soon as it happened," Autry Lewis said.
Out to the garage
When the police showed up at the Paine House and asked Marina Oswald whether her husband had a rifle, she showed them to the garage where he had kept one wrapped in a blanket.
"They opened the blanket, but there was no rifle there," she told the Warren Commission. "Then, of course, I already knew it was Lee."
Marina Oswald and Paine were later fully cleared of any complicity and were considered to be cooperative in the ensuing investigations.
Irving officials said they've been interested in buying the house for about a decade. So when current owner Kimberly Short finally became ready to sell, the city jumped at the opportunity to secure what many see as a historic site – even if its significance is born from tragedy and infamy.
"As unfortunate as that incident was, it's still a very historical moment in the region of Dallas-Fort Worth," said Paul Gooch, Irving's community services director.
Interest remains
Under the agreement, Short is allowed to remain in the house for up to one year. She did not return phone calls seeking comment last week.
In a 2006 interview with The News, Short said she didn't mind the interest that passers-by had in her house. Just as long as they weren't sly about it.
"I know what you're doing," she said at the time. "It doesn't bother me. But don't be sneaky."
The $175,000 price tag the city agreed to pay is well above the $84,000 in value assigned by the Dallas Central Appraisal District. But Gears said $175,000 is a steal even if the city is just now exploring what they want to do with the house.
"Of course, DCAD is not going to include the historical significance of the property," he said.
As Autry Lewis sat on his front porch looking across West Fifth Street last week, he said he wasn't surprised the city made the move. While Dallas' Sixth Floor Museum is a point of national interest, Autry Lewis said the Paine House also still draws its fair share of visitors. Not that he minds too much.
"If I'm out here, I'll talk to them," he said.
Lotta money for a local government to throw away on a house where a Patsy spent four or five weekends, especially in the midst of economic depression. The collector series of the show about nothing seems like a better investment.
QUOTE
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp...9ca629f83f82f8a
Seinfeld - Official Site
The historic “show about nothing:" comes to a close....
Seinfeld - Official Site
The historic “show about nothing:" comes to a close....
QUOTE
http://www.txcn.com/sharedcontent/dws/news...fk.3d76e89.html
Oswald co-worker no longer silent about JFK assassination role
02:14 PM CST on Sunday, November 16, 2008
....Officials assumed that the package Oswald carried to work that morning was the Italian-made rifle he used to kill Kennedy.
Mr. Frazier still doesn't believe it.
When Oswald got in his car that morning, Mr. Frazier hardly noticed the bundle Oswald laid on the back seat.
"He told me he was taking some curtain rods for his room," Mr. Frazier said. "I didn't think much about it."
Mr. Frazier parked his car behind the depository building and revved his engine for a few moments, charging his low battery, and watched Oswald walk about 200 yards into the building with the package under his arm.
In his testimony before the Warren Commission, Mr. Frazier said the brown paper package Oswald carried that morning was too short to contain a rifle. Oswald cupped the package in his hand, he said, and it fit under his armpit.
In Washington, Mr. Frazier said, he was "pressured" to change his recollection. In the days afterward, he was badgered by the media, harassed by people who didn't understand his relationship to Oswald and even became fearful for his life.
His testimony was important because investigators had proved that Oswald bought the rifle used in the JFK slaying and had found a matching palm print on the stock, but they had no proof that he had it with him that day.
Ms. Randle, who was also a leading witness, said recently that when she and Mr. Frazier testified before the Warren Commission, "they tried to get us to say that package was much longer than we recalled, but that wasn't true."
The commission kept pushing, Mr. Frazier said. Could it be that he was traumatized by the horror of what happened or embarrassed that he hadn't been more observant?
"I know what I saw," he said, "and I've never changed one bit."
Size dispute ...
Oswald co-worker no longer silent about JFK assassination role
02:14 PM CST on Sunday, November 16, 2008
....Officials assumed that the package Oswald carried to work that morning was the Italian-made rifle he used to kill Kennedy.
Mr. Frazier still doesn't believe it.
When Oswald got in his car that morning, Mr. Frazier hardly noticed the bundle Oswald laid on the back seat.
"He told me he was taking some curtain rods for his room," Mr. Frazier said. "I didn't think much about it."
Mr. Frazier parked his car behind the depository building and revved his engine for a few moments, charging his low battery, and watched Oswald walk about 200 yards into the building with the package under his arm.
In his testimony before the Warren Commission, Mr. Frazier said the brown paper package Oswald carried that morning was too short to contain a rifle. Oswald cupped the package in his hand, he said, and it fit under his armpit.
In Washington, Mr. Frazier said, he was "pressured" to change his recollection. In the days afterward, he was badgered by the media, harassed by people who didn't understand his relationship to Oswald and even became fearful for his life.
His testimony was important because investigators had proved that Oswald bought the rifle used in the JFK slaying and had found a matching palm print on the stock, but they had no proof that he had it with him that day.
Ms. Randle, who was also a leading witness, said recently that when she and Mr. Frazier testified before the Warren Commission, "they tried to get us to say that package was much longer than we recalled, but that wasn't true."
The commission kept pushing, Mr. Frazier said. Could it be that he was traumatized by the horror of what happened or embarrassed that he hadn't been more observant?
"I know what I saw," he said, "and I've never changed one bit."
Size dispute ...
Bill,
here is the list of neighbors interviewed as to whether they saw Oswald walking to the Randle residence that morning:
Mr and Mrs CP Schneider, Mrs Mary Ponder, Mr and Mrs Victor Embry, Mrs James Goodwin, Mr and Mrs James Williams, and Mr and Mrs Ed Roberts.
Missing: The only person who (decades later) claims to have seen him.
Okay, he says when he saw Oswald in the garage Thursday night, he couldn't tell what he was fiddling around with. And when he saw him grab something from the garage the next morning, he couldn't tell what it was.
But despite lack of detail in what he saw, if such sightings happened, then they were very significant, as they showed Oswald DID grab something from the garage.
So where are the interviews of Mr Lewis? And if the authorities did not find him, why did he not come forward?
My BSometer is going off...
here is the list of neighbors interviewed as to whether they saw Oswald walking to the Randle residence that morning:
Mr and Mrs CP Schneider, Mrs Mary Ponder, Mr and Mrs Victor Embry, Mrs James Goodwin, Mr and Mrs James Williams, and Mr and Mrs Ed Roberts.
Missing: The only person who (decades later) claims to have seen him.
Okay, he says when he saw Oswald in the garage Thursday night, he couldn't tell what he was fiddling around with. And when he saw him grab something from the garage the next morning, he couldn't tell what it was.
But despite lack of detail in what he saw, if such sightings happened, then they were very significant, as they showed Oswald DID grab something from the garage.
So where are the interviews of Mr Lewis? And if the authorities did not find him, why did he not come forward?
My BSometer is going off...
QUOTE (Greg Parker @ Sep 8 2009, 03:44 AM)
He was talking about buying a rifle just prior to leaving NO in Sept, '63 giving the reason that "everyone needs one". He also hinted that lack of ability to own a rifle in Soviet Union was one of the reasons he did not like it there (source, 2001 interview with Ruth Ann Peters nee Kloepfer).
Greg: I have googled Ruth Ann Peters and Ruth Ann Kloepfer without success. Can you tell us more about her? Is there a complete transcript of this interview available?
[quote name='Greg Parker' post='171959' date='Sep 8 2009, 02:44 AM']He was talking about buying a rifle just prior to leaving NO in Sept, '63 giving the reason that "everyone needs one". He also hinted that lack of ability to own a rifle in Soviet Union was one of the reasons he did not like it there (source, 2001 interview with Ruth Ann Peters nee Kloepfer).
Greg, could you point me towards the above interview please, I cant find it anywhere.
I maintain that the pistol was purchased for a third party (DF Drittal was named as reference on coupon. "dienst fur drittel" is German and translates into "on behalf of a third party").
"dienst fur drittel" translates to: service for third. Which is meaningless. The correct translation for "on behalf/interest of a third party" is :auf interesse von dritte partei
Good. It needs questioning. The impression I get from their testimony is that there was little love between the two siblings. Wes said they rarely spoke - Linnie hints that he's an uneducated hick and below her station. They also differ on how Wes got his job. Through her recommendation according to her. Through a tip from an Irving employment agency according to him.
I must be missing your point here, how does Linnie's and Wes's relationship affect the reliability of their testimony?[/quote]
PS Bad luck with the Ashes mate
Greg, could you point me towards the above interview please, I cant find it anywhere.
I maintain that the pistol was purchased for a third party (DF Drittal was named as reference on coupon. "dienst fur drittel" is German and translates into "on behalf of a third party").
"dienst fur drittel" translates to: service for third. Which is meaningless. The correct translation for "on behalf/interest of a third party" is :auf interesse von dritte partei
Good. It needs questioning. The impression I get from their testimony is that there was little love between the two siblings. Wes said they rarely spoke - Linnie hints that he's an uneducated hick and below her station. They also differ on how Wes got his job. Through her recommendation according to her. Through a tip from an Irving employment agency according to him.
I must be missing your point here, how does Linnie's and Wes's relationship affect the reliability of their testimony?[/quote]
PS Bad luck with the Ashes mate
Ray and Denis,
the interview has never been published. I did send parts of it to Larry Hancock and I believe he refers to that in the last version of his book.
I should correct what I said previously, having re-looked at it, the word mentioned was "gun" not "rifle" - though in context I do think "rifle" was what Oswald was referring to specifically.
Here is the part of the interview relevant to this thread:
Thus both my sister Karol and I remember our shock when Karol innocently asked him "Why did you leave the Soviet Union?" and he answered "Because they won't let you own a gun there." One of us persisted with something like "But why would you need a gun?" And he had said simply, shaking his head nervously, "you gotta have a gun!" He then went on to tell us that one thing he was going to do in Washington was "pick up a gun."
Denis,
at the time I was looking into the Drittal name, I had a German woman working for me. I asked her what DF might stand for in relation to the German word "dritte" or "drittel". It did not take her long at all to come up with "dienst fur" and the translation I gave, is the one she gave me. Checking an online translator, Fur = for; dienst = employment or service and dritte = third OR third party ("tal" and "tel" are merely suffixes). We can get caught up in literal translations and forget that most languages have a colloquial side to them. She was born and raised in Germany and had no idea why I was asking about this, so how she could be mistaken, or what possible motive she would have had to lie. In any case, the online translator seems to bear her version out.
And thanks for mentioning the Ashes. The wounds to the psyche were just starting heal, too...
the interview has never been published. I did send parts of it to Larry Hancock and I believe he refers to that in the last version of his book.
I should correct what I said previously, having re-looked at it, the word mentioned was "gun" not "rifle" - though in context I do think "rifle" was what Oswald was referring to specifically.
Here is the part of the interview relevant to this thread:
Thus both my sister Karol and I remember our shock when Karol innocently asked him "Why did you leave the Soviet Union?" and he answered "Because they won't let you own a gun there." One of us persisted with something like "But why would you need a gun?" And he had said simply, shaking his head nervously, "you gotta have a gun!" He then went on to tell us that one thing he was going to do in Washington was "pick up a gun."
Denis,
at the time I was looking into the Drittal name, I had a German woman working for me. I asked her what DF might stand for in relation to the German word "dritte" or "drittel". It did not take her long at all to come up with "dienst fur" and the translation I gave, is the one she gave me. Checking an online translator, Fur = for; dienst = employment or service and dritte = third OR third party ("tal" and "tel" are merely suffixes). We can get caught up in literal translations and forget that most languages have a colloquial side to them. She was born and raised in Germany and had no idea why I was asking about this, so how she could be mistaken, or what possible motive she would have had to lie. In any case, the online translator seems to bear her version out.
And thanks for mentioning the Ashes. The wounds to the psyche were just starting heal, too...
QUOTE (Greg Parker @ Sep 9 2009, 12:03 AM)
Ray and Denis,
the interview has never been published. I did send parts of it to Larry Hancock and I believe he refers to that in the last version of his book.
I should correct what I said previously, having re-looked at it, the word mentioned was "gun" not "rifle" - though in context I do think "rifle" was what Oswald was referring to specifically.
Here is the part of the interview relevant to this thread:
Thus both my sister Karol and I remember our shock when Karol innocently asked him "Why did you leave the Soviet Union?" and he answered "Because they won't let you own a gun there." One of us persisted with something like "But why would you need a gun?" And he had said simply, shaking his head nervously, "you gotta have a gun!" He then went on to tell us that one thing he was going to do in Washington was "pick up a gun."
Denis,
at the time I was looking into the Drittal name, I had a German woman working for me. I asked her what DF might stand for in relation to the German word "dritte" or "drittel". It did not take her long at all to come up with "dienst fur" and the translation I gave, is the one she gave me. Checking an online translator, Fur = for; dienst = employment or service and dritte = third OR third party ("tal" and "tel" are merely suffixes). We can get caught up in literal translations and forget that most languages have a colloquial side to them. She was born and raised in Germany and had no idea why I was asking about this, so how she could be mistaken, or what possible motive she would have had to lie. In any case, the online translator seems to bear her version out.
And thanks for mentioning the Ashes. The wounds to the psyche were just starting heal, too...
the interview has never been published. I did send parts of it to Larry Hancock and I believe he refers to that in the last version of his book.
I should correct what I said previously, having re-looked at it, the word mentioned was "gun" not "rifle" - though in context I do think "rifle" was what Oswald was referring to specifically.
Here is the part of the interview relevant to this thread:
Thus both my sister Karol and I remember our shock when Karol innocently asked him "Why did you leave the Soviet Union?" and he answered "Because they won't let you own a gun there." One of us persisted with something like "But why would you need a gun?" And he had said simply, shaking his head nervously, "you gotta have a gun!" He then went on to tell us that one thing he was going to do in Washington was "pick up a gun."
Denis,
at the time I was looking into the Drittal name, I had a German woman working for me. I asked her what DF might stand for in relation to the German word "dritte" or "drittel". It did not take her long at all to come up with "dienst fur" and the translation I gave, is the one she gave me. Checking an online translator, Fur = for; dienst = employment or service and dritte = third OR third party ("tal" and "tel" are merely suffixes). We can get caught up in literal translations and forget that most languages have a colloquial side to them. She was born and raised in Germany and had no idea why I was asking about this, so how she could be mistaken, or what possible motive she would have had to lie. In any case, the online translator seems to bear her version out.
And thanks for mentioning the Ashes. The wounds to the psyche were just starting heal, too...
One thing for certain, "Drittal" is definitely not a persons name. I tried tracing it some time back and as far as I'm able to tell there's not a Herr Drittal in the whole of Germany. It's not really the kind of name someone would just invent either is it? I know it sounds stupid but I've spent many an hour 'Googling' and pondering the name/word and try as I may I just cant tie it in with Oswald. With respect, I'm not really convinced by your theory but it's certainly better than anything I can come up with as yet.
QUOTE
One thing for certain, "Drittal" is definitely not a persons name. I tried tracing it some time back and as far as I'm able to tell there's not a Herr Drittal in the whole of Germany. It's not really the kind of name someone would just invent either is it? I know it sounds stupid but I've spent many an hour 'Googling' and pondering the name/word and try as I may I just cant tie it in with Oswald. With respect, I'm not really convinced by your theory but it's certainly better than anything I can come up with as yet.
Denis,
we agree it's not a name that anyone has. That leaves two choices. Either it was made up out of thin air, or it has some meaning that can be decoded. You seem to agree also that it's German. Oswald had been teaching himself rudimentary German. This would fit with a suffix being incorrectly added to "dritte".
In the event someone finds this thread in a search result, the discussion here should be tied together with the same subject on the new thread.:
QUOTE (Greg Parker @ Feb 16 2010, 10:16 PM)
Neighbors saw nothing
December 1st was a busy day for Odum and McNeely. They also interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider, Mrs Mary Ponder, Mr and Mrs Victor Embry, Mrs James Goodwin, Mr and Mrs James Williams, and Mr and Mrs Ed Roberts. All were neighbors of the Paines and Randles. None had seen Oswald as he trudged over from the Paine residence to the Randle house on the morning of the assassination - carrying a long, bulky package or otherwise.[13] This begs the question though, as to why Oswald would risk being seen by neighbors carrying the package which, according to police, resembled a rifle case - especially if he intended using it for assassinating Kennedy later that day. One possible answer (but by no means the only) can be found in what Harry Holmes and Gus Rose said to author Larry Sneed during interviews for the book, No More Silence.
Holmes: Oswald told Fritz that the curtain rods weren't for his room, he had brought them in for a co-worker who needed some. Although some accounts say Oswald told Fritz the bag contained his lunch, he in fact told Fritz (in Holmes' presence) that the bag contained curtain rods for a co-worker.
Rose: Frazier said he didn't think the package had contained curtain rods. He suggested that Oswald leave it in the car, but Oswald refused, saying "No, I need it here." [14] If Oswald had such a package, and did "need it here [inside the TSBD]", it might indicate it contained a rifle he planned to use later with deadly intent. It may also indicate that it was curtain rods he was bringing in for an unknown fellow employee. In that regard, Holmes and Rose may just have independently corroborated each other.
The car door conundrum
In her very first statement on what she had witnessed, Linnie Mae made no mention of which car door Oswald had placed his package. She merely stated, "I saw him put it in Wesley's car". In her FBI statement made the following day, she declared she had seen him place it "in the back seat area".
By the time the FBI reinterviewed her on Dec 1, she was able to go into more detail, saying that she had seen Oswald open "the right rear door of the car" and, presuming he was getting in, turned to go back to the sink "after" hearing the car door being shut.
It was during her March 11, 1964 testimony before the Warren Commission that she finally admitted the truth. After initially repeating her earlier claims of seeing Oswald place the package in the right back seat area, she was drawn back to it later under questioning by Senator Cooper. To Cooper, she responded, "what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched it in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked". [15] In other words, she did not see Oswald place the package in the right back seat area of the car. It was an assumption on her part. Other evidence presented here suggests either Oswald carried it in his lap the whole way – as had been the case previously, or he initially carried it that way but then threw it in the backseat at Frazier’s suggestion.
http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/jf...-randle-t24.htm
December 1st was a busy day for Odum and McNeely. They also interviewed Mr and Mrs CP Schneider, Mrs Mary Ponder, Mr and Mrs Victor Embry, Mrs James Goodwin, Mr and Mrs James Williams, and Mr and Mrs Ed Roberts. All were neighbors of the Paines and Randles. None had seen Oswald as he trudged over from the Paine residence to the Randle house on the morning of the assassination - carrying a long, bulky package or otherwise.[13] This begs the question though, as to why Oswald would risk being seen by neighbors carrying the package which, according to police, resembled a rifle case - especially if he intended using it for assassinating Kennedy later that day. One possible answer (but by no means the only) can be found in what Harry Holmes and Gus Rose said to author Larry Sneed during interviews for the book, No More Silence.
Holmes: Oswald told Fritz that the curtain rods weren't for his room, he had brought them in for a co-worker who needed some. Although some accounts say Oswald told Fritz the bag contained his lunch, he in fact told Fritz (in Holmes' presence) that the bag contained curtain rods for a co-worker.
Rose: Frazier said he didn't think the package had contained curtain rods. He suggested that Oswald leave it in the car, but Oswald refused, saying "No, I need it here." [14] If Oswald had such a package, and did "need it here [inside the TSBD]", it might indicate it contained a rifle he planned to use later with deadly intent. It may also indicate that it was curtain rods he was bringing in for an unknown fellow employee. In that regard, Holmes and Rose may just have independently corroborated each other.
The car door conundrum
In her very first statement on what she had witnessed, Linnie Mae made no mention of which car door Oswald had placed his package. She merely stated, "I saw him put it in Wesley's car". In her FBI statement made the following day, she declared she had seen him place it "in the back seat area".
By the time the FBI reinterviewed her on Dec 1, she was able to go into more detail, saying that she had seen Oswald open "the right rear door of the car" and, presuming he was getting in, turned to go back to the sink "after" hearing the car door being shut.
It was during her March 11, 1964 testimony before the Warren Commission that she finally admitted the truth. After initially repeating her earlier claims of seeing Oswald place the package in the right back seat area, she was drawn back to it later under questioning by Senator Cooper. To Cooper, she responded, "what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched it in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked". [15] In other words, she did not see Oswald place the package in the right back seat area of the car. It was an assumption on her part. Other evidence presented here suggests either Oswald carried it in his lap the whole way – as had been the case previously, or he initially carried it that way but then threw it in the backseat at Frazier’s suggestion.
http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/jf...-randle-t24.htm
QUOTE (J. Raymond Carroll @ Sep 7 2009, 10:12 AM)
QUOTE (Denis Pointing @ Sep 6 2009, 02:41 PM)
Ray, the interview is here: http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=148
Thank you Denis, but you were a day late and a dollar short. TOm Scully had already posted this link on this very thread. And note that in posting the link, Mr. Scully saw no need to denigrate the research ability of another member.
QUOTE
Essie Williams does not say "he was NOT carrying a brown bag or anything else" as stated by Dixie.
Thee is insufficient evidence to justify such a dogmatic assertion, because we do NOT have a transcript of her statement, and the Warren Commission never questioned her.
QUOTE
She actually says "She did not see this person carrying anything" and that she "only got a quick glimpse of Oswald" big difference isn't it. Misquoting testimony, albeit by accident, does not help the cause.
You don't know what SHE said.
We do know that tHe FBI report actually says:
QUOTE
She did not see this person carrying anything and stated she could not furnish any information concerning Oswald or the brown bag he SUPPOSEDLY HAD BEEN CARRYING PRIOR TO HER SEEING HIM
If we are to judge by this report, it seems that -- quick glimpse or curious lingering glance, the FBI agents came away with the distinct impression that Oz was not carrying a bulky brown package at the time this witness observed him.
We do not know how long Essie spent looking at this stranger, but we know that she was immediately curious about him, because she asked her son who this man was.
So we know that she saw him and was immediately curious about him, and we know what the FBI agents inferred from their interview with her.
The FBI agents came away with the distinct impression that Oz was not carrying a bulky brown package at the time this witness observed him.
I think Dixie is much closer to the truth here than Mr. Pointing
Ray,
the way I read the report is that becuase she was indicating she saw nothing - the FBI dealt with that by hinting she saw him AFTER he (supposedly) placed the package in the car.
The only witnesses to any sack of any description remain Wes and Linnie-Mae. There have been literally a 1001 variations on the curtain rod story - a lot of those either straight from Wes, or attributed to him by cops. I tend to think Oswald had a sack containing his cheese sandwich and apple. This was not a normal lunch sack, but the only one he could find in Ruth's kitchen - thus possibly slightly oversized. Alternatively he may well have made the sack himself at work just as alleged - knowing that Ruth had no need for - nor kept lunch sacks. Maybe he made one every week...? Just a thought out loud. Whatever - the main point is the contents...
QUOTE (Greg Parker @ Sep 8 2009, 02:44 AM)
QUOTE
The question that I ask is in the light of Ozzie's statement that he did not own a rifle,
He was talking about buying a rifle just prior to leaving NO in Sept, '63 giving the reason that "everyone needs one". He also hinted that lack of ability to own a rifle in Soviet Union was one of the reasons he did not like it there (source, 2001 interview with Ruth Ann Peters nee Kloepfer).
Why would he be talking about needing a rifle and wanting to buy one if he already owned one? Moreover, why was he talking about this at all?
I maintain that the pistol was purchased for a third party (DF Drittal was named as reference on coupon. "dienst fur drittel" is German and translates into "on behalf of a third party").
Was that third party the Dodd Subcommittee looking into the companies that supplied these weapons through the mail? Was it coincidence that a Californian cop on secondment to that subcommittee was the one who steered the investigation toward Klein's?
QUOTE
I have for some time questioned the testimonies of Wes Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae.
Good. It needs questioning. The impression I get from their testimony is that there was little love between the two siblings. Wes said they rarely spoke - Linnie hints that he's an uneducated hick and below her station. They also differ on how Wes got his job. Through her recommendation according to her. Through a tip from an Irving employment agency according to him.
And it was Linnie who dropped Wes in the poo with the cops to begin with...
QUOTE
I don't recall if I have posted this here before or not, but I do question if Linnie Mae Randle actually saw all that she claimed to have seen.
You are correct. She didn't see what she originally hinted she saw, and this part of her testimony virtually is an admission of it:
Senator COOPER. I mean did you see him throw open the. door?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. When he placed the package in there do you remember whether he used one hand or two?
Mrs. RANDLE. No; because I only opened the door briefly and what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked.
So when she says she saw him open the door, what she was really saying was that she assumed he did, because it appears that door was the only one he could open.
Greg,
Is the 2001 interview with Ruth Ann Peters nee Kloepfer available somewhere?
And, regarding "DF Drittal", are you certain that "dienst fur drittel" translates into "on behalf of a third party"?
Thanks.
Todd
QUOTE
Greg,
Is the 2001 interview with Ruth Ann Peters nee Kloepfer available somewhere?
And, regarding "DF Drittal", are you certain that "dienst fur drittel" translates into "on behalf of a third party"?
Thanks.
Todd
Is the 2001 interview with Ruth Ann Peters nee Kloepfer available somewhere?
And, regarding "DF Drittal", are you certain that "dienst fur drittel" translates into "on behalf of a third party"?
Thanks.
Todd
Todd,
the interview was done via email and has never been published. It is on a computer currently undergoing repairs, but a number of researchers over the years have been sent a copy of it, and it was cited in the last version of Larry Hancock's book.
The history of my "DF Drittal" theory... I searched high and low for any trace of that surname without success. That led to a conclusion that the name was not a real person (no surprise there!). I also decided that the likeihood that he pulled the name out of thin air was practically zero, and therefore probably had some hidden meaning. As "Drittal" sounded German to me, I checked for any similar German words and found "dritte" and "drittel". I then, without explaining why, asked a German woman I worked with at the time, to suggest what words starting with D & F might go with the word "dritte" or "drittel". She came up with "dienst fur dritte" - "on behalf of a third party". When I explained what it was about, she said "tal" and "tel" were common German suffixes and someone learning German could get confused if and when one or the other should be used. Oswald's notebook shows he was trying to learn some German.
My best guess? He ordered the pistol on behalf of the Dodd Committee and "DF Drittal" was kind of an inside joke. I don't think he had anything to dop with ordering the rifle.
The thing that bugs me the most about the MC rifle - besides the fact that very few people actually saw it - Marina - DeMohrenschilt and Michael Paine (in blanket), is that it was ordered through a post office box.
Now from what I can imagine, Oswald got a post card in his PO box that said a package had been delivered, and he handed the post card to a postal employee behind a counter at the post office, and the employee looked at the card and then went into the back to a storage area where he picked up the package - the rifle - and handed it over to Oswald.
If this actually happened, how come this postal employee has never been identified?
Do Dallas post offices handle so many mail order rifles that it isn't something to remember?
The other things that bother me about the rifle is that while Marina said Oswald sat on his New Orleans porch and dry cocked the rifle, his nosey next door neighbor, who said Oswald never introduced himself or said hello in the months they lived next to each other, - he never saw this happen, yet he saw Oswald leave early that September morning with two suitcases. Why didn't he see the gun on the porch?
And how did the rifle get from Dallas to New Orleans and back again? Michael Paine packed the station wagon and unpacked the station wagon and Mrs. Paine drove it, yet they didn't know about it?
Michael said he thought the "pipe" in the blanket was camping equipment, yet he later admitted that the very first time he met Oswald he saw the backyard photo of Oswald holding the rifle, so he knew about the rifle though he denied it.
The clincher for me is that it is forensically impossible for the rifle to have been kept for any time at all in the thick wool blanket without leaving a forensic trace of the blanket fiber on the rifle.
There's also something suspicious about Boone - the officer (DPD or Sheriff?) who found the rifle. According to Alyea, Craig and Mooney, Boone was all over the Sixth Floor looking for the rifle, when they should have been sealing the building and securing the area and searching for the assassin.
BK
Now from what I can imagine, Oswald got a post card in his PO box that said a package had been delivered, and he handed the post card to a postal employee behind a counter at the post office, and the employee looked at the card and then went into the back to a storage area where he picked up the package - the rifle - and handed it over to Oswald.
If this actually happened, how come this postal employee has never been identified?
Do Dallas post offices handle so many mail order rifles that it isn't something to remember?
The other things that bother me about the rifle is that while Marina said Oswald sat on his New Orleans porch and dry cocked the rifle, his nosey next door neighbor, who said Oswald never introduced himself or said hello in the months they lived next to each other, - he never saw this happen, yet he saw Oswald leave early that September morning with two suitcases. Why didn't he see the gun on the porch?
And how did the rifle get from Dallas to New Orleans and back again? Michael Paine packed the station wagon and unpacked the station wagon and Mrs. Paine drove it, yet they didn't know about it?
Michael said he thought the "pipe" in the blanket was camping equipment, yet he later admitted that the very first time he met Oswald he saw the backyard photo of Oswald holding the rifle, so he knew about the rifle though he denied it.
The clincher for me is that it is forensically impossible for the rifle to have been kept for any time at all in the thick wool blanket without leaving a forensic trace of the blanket fiber on the rifle.
There's also something suspicious about Boone - the officer (DPD or Sheriff?) who found the rifle. According to Alyea, Craig and Mooney, Boone was all over the Sixth Floor looking for the rifle, when they should have been sealing the building and securing the area and searching for the assassin.
BK
QUOTE (William Kelly @ Feb 18 2010, 08:07 PM)
The other things that bother me about the rifle is that while Marina said Oswald sat on his New Orleans porch and dry cocked the rifle, his nosey next door neighbor, who said Oswald never introduced himself or said hello in the months they lived next to each other, - he never saw this happen, yet he saw Oswald leave early that September morning with two suitcases. Why didn't he see the gun on the porch?
BK
BK
Bill, if I remember right, the Oswalds had a screened-in porch at that address?
QUOTE (David Andrews @ Feb 18 2010, 08:25 PM)
QUOTE (William Kelly @ Feb 18 2010, 08:07 PM)
The other things that bother me about the rifle is that while Marina said Oswald sat on his New Orleans porch and dry cocked the rifle, his nosey next door neighbor, who said Oswald never introduced himself or said hello in the months they lived next to each other, - he never saw this happen, yet he saw Oswald leave early that September morning with two suitcases. Why didn't he see the gun on the porch?
BK
BK
Bill, if I remember right, the Oswalds had a screened-in porch at that address?
That's possible Dave, though the photos I've seen of it more recently don't have a screen.
In any case, if it even happened, the dry firing of the rifle on that porch is the only time Oswald is known to have actually handled it other than as seen in the backyard photos.
BK
QUOTE (William Kelly @ Feb 19 2010, 05:56 AM)
QUOTE (David Andrews @ Feb 18 2010, 08:25 PM)
QUOTE (William Kelly @ Feb 18 2010, 08:07 PM)
The other things that bother me about the rifle is that while Marina said Oswald sat on his New Orleans porch and dry cocked the rifle, his nosey next door neighbor, who said Oswald never introduced himself or said hello in the months they lived next to each other, - he never saw this happen, yet he saw Oswald leave early that September morning with two suitcases. Why didn't he see the gun on the porch?
BK
BK
Bill, if I remember right, the Oswalds had a screened-in porch at that address?
That's possible Dave, though the photos I've seen of it more recently don't have a screen.
In any case, if it even happened, the dry firing of the rifle on that porch is the only time Oswald is known to have actually handled it other than as seen in the backyard photos.
BK
Screen or no screen, at least one neighbor reported that the only activity seen on the porch was Oswald doing something far more dangerous than rifle practice - he did his reading there.
And thank you Bill for listing all the reasons to believe Oswald had nothing to do with the rifle. The case for him having it is very weak and would have crumbled in court.
QUOTE
Screen or no screen, at least one neighbor reported that the only activity seen on the porch was Oswald doing something far more dangerous than rifle practice - he did his reading there.
And thank you Bill for listing all the reasons to believe Oswald had nothing to do with the rifle. The case for him having it is very weak and would have crumbled in court.
And thank you Bill for listing all the reasons to believe Oswald had nothing to do with the rifle. The case for him having it is very weak and would have crumbled in court.
"...He said that this man generally sat on his lawn or on his porch reading..."
"...Eames said he never observed Oswald exhibit any guns. He said he did see Oswald in the main branch of the New Orleans Library on one occasion and observed Oswald frequently [my emphasis] reading on his porch and lawn.
FBI interview with Alexander Eames
Seems Eames saw a lot of Oswald and his habits around the house and if Oswald had been in the habit of dry firing a rifle, Eames would surely have seen him.
QUOTE (Greg Parker @ Sep 8 2009, 03:44 AM)
QUOTE
The question that I ask is in the light of Ozzie's statement that he did not own a rifle,
He was talking about buying a rifle just prior to leaving NO in Sept, '63 giving the reason that "everyone needs one". He also hinted that lack of ability to own a rifle in Soviet Union was one of the reasons he did not like it there (source, 2001 interview with Ruth Ann Peters nee Kloepfer).
Why would he be talking about needing a rifle and wanting to buy one if he already owned one? Moreover, why was he talking about this at all?
I maintain that the pistol was purchased for a third party (DF Drittal was named as reference on coupon. "dienst fur drittel" is German and translates into "on behalf of a third party").
Was that third party the Dodd Subcommittee looking into the companies that supplied these weapons through the mail? Was it coincidence that a Californian cop on secondment to that subcommittee was the one who steered the investigation toward Klein's?
QUOTE
I have for some time questioned the testimonies of Wes Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae.
Good. It needs questioning. The impression I get from their testimony is that there was little love between the two siblings. Wes said they rarely spoke - Linnie hints that he's an uneducated hick and below her station. They also differ on how Wes got his job. Through her recommendation according to her. Through a tip from an Irving employment agency according to him.
And it was Linnie who dropped Wes in the poo with the cops to begin with...
QUOTE
I don't recall if I have posted this here before or not, but I do question if Linnie Mae Randle actually saw all that she claimed to have seen.
You are correct. She didn't see what she originally hinted she saw, and this part of her testimony virtually is an admission of it:
Senator COOPER. I mean did you see him throw open the. door?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. When he placed the package in there do you remember whether he used one hand or two?
Mrs. RANDLE. No; because I only opened the door briefly and what made me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that I looked.
So when she says she saw him open the door, what she was really saying was that she assumed he did, because it appears that door was the only one he could open.
Just a spooky coincidence, or much more?
"Drittel" or "Drittell"....it is spelled both ways...was the name of a Russian immigrant, a cellist named Ana :
QUOTE
http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=A...=1&oi=spell
The Musician: America's leading magazine for musicians, music-lovers ... - Page 103
Biography & Autobiography - 1932
Mr. Arsenault was assisted by Ana Drittel, cellist. Susanne Fisher, soprano of
the Metropolitan Opera, has been engaged to sing a special performance of La ...
http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=A...nG=Search+Books
The Musician: America's leading magazine for musicians, music-lovers ... - Page 46
Biography & Autobiography - 1932
Ana Drittell, young cellist, made her Town Hall debut, presenting music of Bach,
Beethoven- Mozart, Locatelli, Jean Hure, Faure, Turina, Hindemith and U.
The Musician: America's leading magazine for musicians, music-lovers ... - Page 103
Biography & Autobiography - 1932
Mr. Arsenault was assisted by Ana Drittel, cellist. Susanne Fisher, soprano of
the Metropolitan Opera, has been engaged to sing a special performance of La ...
http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=A...nG=Search+Books
The Musician: America's leading magazine for musicians, music-lovers ... - Page 46
Biography & Autobiography - 1932
Ana Drittell, young cellist, made her Town Hall debut, presenting music of Bach,
Beethoven- Mozart, Locatelli, Jean Hure, Faure, Turina, Hindemith and U.
QUOTE (Jim Root @ Sep 20 2005, 06:08 PM)
James
....."There's not much information on the background of Ana Dratelle, the 1st
and 3rd wife of John Hurt. She was apparently very good at speaking French
and perhaps was living in France when Hurt met her aboard ship on his way
to/from France. The family says she studied music in Europe. The information
about her being Russian comes from the book Story of Magic, I believe, and
perhaps also from the family."
Hurt first married Ana in the 1930's but quickly divorced. He remained married to his second wife until she died, I believe shortly after the war ended. He then remaried Ana Dratelle. Apparently Hurt travelled to France for extended periods twice, once before the war and once again in 1963/64. He was known to have made the comment that "The French do not know how to speak French."
Ana was a concert cellist although, as Ms Hoch suggests, very little is know about her. Hurt was a man who could sing many of the most famous opera parts and was a lover of clasical music.
Although he was known for being such a great Japanese linguist, Hurt never traveled to Japan.
Just for the record,
Jim Root
....."There's not much information on the background of Ana Dratelle, the 1st
and 3rd wife of John Hurt. She was apparently very good at speaking French
and perhaps was living in France when Hurt met her aboard ship on his way
to/from France. The family says she studied music in Europe. The information
about her being Russian comes from the book Story of Magic, I believe, and
perhaps also from the family."
Hurt first married Ana in the 1930's but quickly divorced. He remained married to his second wife until she died, I believe shortly after the war ended. He then remaried Ana Dratelle. Apparently Hurt travelled to France for extended periods twice, once before the war and once again in 1963/64. He was known to have made the comment that "The French do not know how to speak French."
Ana was a concert cellist although, as Ms Hoch suggests, very little is know about her. Hurt was a man who could sing many of the most famous opera parts and was a lover of clasical music.
Although he was known for being such a great Japanese linguist, Hurt never traveled to Japan.
Just for the record,
Jim Root
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