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The Education Forum > Controversial Issues in History > JFK Assassination Debate
Terry Mauro
Lately, it's been called to my attention by one of my fellow collaborators, who's just finished his final paper on the assassinations, that there must be something more to "life after JFK assassination research". To which I answered that it was time to get involved with educating the masses of anesthetized citizenry regarding the usurpage of their rights and freedoms by the present political administration and the abomination we've allowed to fester and eat away at the heart of the U.S. Constitution.

Below, I've copied and pasted the section of MoveOn.org and their attempts at organizing demonstrations on a grassroots level by putting you in touch with the chapters in your neighborhood, city, and counties, where you'll be able to make your voice known and heard, along with those of like-minded and kindred spirits.

Those of you who are fed up with what's been happening with your own government's reticence and foot-dragging on these issues of corruption, exploitation, and unmitigated greed, feel free to contact MoveOn.org and express your desire to join, or form your own movement. Find out where and how to start. It's time to take it to the streets. Use your computers for more than expressing your humble opinions on the JFK assassination. We already know who the perpetrators are. It's time to take action, NOW!

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**Stop Corruption Weekend: Sunday, 29 Jan 2006, 1:00 PM. Please RSVP today.**

Dear MoveOn member,

New evidence shows that lobbyists closely connected to indicted-lobbyist Jack Abramoff and Tom DeLay were working for drug companies in the fight over the new Medicare drug law—funding the DeLay-Abramoff money machine.1

That is the sort of corruption we need to expose to the media and the American people and why your work this weekend is so important.

Starting tomorrow thousands of people across the country will gather to connect the dots between their representative and the Republican corruption in Washington—and they've invited the media. A few good articles in the local paper about citizens' anger about Republican corruption could put your Congressperson on the run. The key to success is having a good turnout and that is why your participation is so important.

Here is the Stop Corruption event in your congressional district.

Stop Corruption Weekend
De Longpre Park - Northeast Corner
1390 N Cherokee Ave
Los Angeles, CA
Sunday, 29 Jan 2006, 1:00 PM

Please RSVP:

http://political.moveon.org/event/corrupti...z8CvMYW7m3Q&t=4

A really good turnout is needed for the media to start talking about corruption.
Why focus on corruption? This is the issue that is going to end Republican control of Congress this November. More than 91 percent of Americans say they are concerned about corruption in Washington. They blame the Republicans for it and trust Democrats to clean it up. But only 22 percent think their representative is corrupt.2 We've got work to do.

Starting now we have to expose the Republican corruption in Washington directly to the media and the public in our communities, and push Democrats to become the "party of reform."


This strategy will only work if we do three things. First we have to connect corruption to issues people care about like Medicare. Second we have to show people that their member of Congress is tied to the culture of corruption. Finally, we need to press Democrats to support real reform with teeth.

The plan for this weekend to help reach that goal is simple. MoveOn members will gather briefly to discuss the culture of corruption in Washington and then fan out in their communities to spread the word with a leaflet about the Republican corruption behind the Medicare prescription drug law and a petition asking Congress to support real reform with teeth.

Please RSVP by clicking on the link below.

http://political.moveon.org/event/corrupti...z8CvMYW7m3Q&t=5

In many communities the local media will show up to report on these events and nationally the press will be judging the mood of the country going into the State of the Union address. Good participation by local citizens will show the media that people want a change.

From start to finish it will take less than two hours and your event will be one of hundreds—insuring we'll send an important message to the media and lawmakers.

In an election year like 2006, we can't let President Bush set the agenda. Last year we came out of the gate strong and beat Bush on Social Security. This year we can expose what he won't expose—the corruption in Washington and the urgent need for change.

Thanks for all you do.

—Tom, Carrie, Micayla, Rosalyn and the MoveOn.org Political Action Team
Thursday, January 26, 2006

Source

1. Democrats Seek Investigation into Role of Scandal-Tainted Lobbying Group
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=1420

2. Polling Report on Corruption in Washington
http://www.pollingreport.com/politics.htm

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I'm ready to get out there and march.
Sign me up for the January 29, 2006 1:00 demonstration at De Longpre Park.

Somehow the charmed life our parents had hoped to pass along to us, and to their grandchildren has been diverted and divested by a twisted and sinister form of government bearing little resemblance to what we were taught to believe in. Maybe it was nothing more than a lie manufactured by the "bought and paid for" media machine. Isn't it amazing how easily hypnotized and anesthetized a mass of people can become by one form of technology, be it a CRT monitor or an LCD screen. Too much mechanized visual stimulation leads to the atrophy of your other senses, including the ability to think critically and independently. It's time to get off our asses and hit the streets!

Sincerely yours,
Theresa C. Mauro


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This has been going on for far too long, and we'll keep repeating the same mistakes in Iraq and God knows where else, as long as we do nothing to change this mass psy-ops we've allowed to be pulled on us.

BORN IN THE U.S.A.

Born down in a dead man's town
The first kick I took was when I hit the ground
You end up like a dog that's been beat too much
Till you spend half your life just covering up

Born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.

Got in a little hometown jam
So they put a rifle in my hand
Sent me off to a foreign land
To go and kill the yellow man

Born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.

Come back home to the refinery
Hiring man says "Son if it was up to me"
Went down to see my V.A. man
He said "Son, don't you understand"

I had a brother at Khe Sahn fighting off the Viet Cong
They're still there, he's all gone

He had a woman he loved in Saigon
I got a picture of him in her arms now

Down in the shadow of the penitentiary
Out by the gas fires of the refinery
I'm ten years burning down the road
Nowhere to run ain't got nowhere to go

Born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
I'm a long gone Daddy in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
I'm a cool rocking Daddy in the U.S.A.



Copyright © Bruce Springsteen (ASCAP)

*****************************************************************************

MY HOME TOWN

I was eight years old and running with a dime in my hand
Into the bus stop to pick up a paper for my old man
I'd sit on his lap in that big old Buick and steer as we drove through town
He'd tousle my hair and say son take a good look around this is your hometown
This is your hometown
This is your hometown
This is your hometown

In '65 tension was running high at my high school
There was a lot of fights between the black and white
There was nothing you could do
Two cars at a light on a Saturday night in the back seat there was a gun
Words were passed in a shotgun blast
Troubled times had come to my hometown
My hometown
My hometown
My hometown

Now Main Street's whitewashed windows and vacant stores
Seems like there ain't nobody wants to come down here no more
They're closing down the textile mill across the railroad tracks
Foreman says these jobs are going boys and they ain't coming back to your hometown
Your hometown
Your hometown
Your hometown

Last night me and Kate we laid in bed
talking about getting out
Packing up our bags maybe heading south
I'm thirty-five we got a boy of our own now
Last night I sat him up behind the wheel and said son take a good look around
This is your hometown


Copyright © Bruce Springsteen (ASCAP)
Jim Hackett II
Taking it to the streets wasn't a novel thing once.
The American freedoms are NOT granted by the Bu$hites and the local police. Those freedoms are a birth-right, not priveleges granted by the state but UNALIENABLE RIGHTS granted by NONE.

Taking it to the streets. i.e. the right to peacefully assemble and further to seek redress of grievance are rights too often abrogated and if not abrogated then stolen by lack of use. Not exercising this freedom and others like the right to bear arms is the surest way to guarantee those rights will no longer exist.

Remember the quarantine of opposing views in NYC for the NEOCON convention in 2004? Or the history of subversion of the people's voice to speak to power as in Miami 1972? Right Mr. Gratz? Jeezus Keerist what a folly.

Terri I found your post on the money and quite moving before I got to the Bruce Springsteen lyrics.

It WAS a different America to come home to in the 1970s. The lack of people willing to take it to the streets are one of many reasons why. But isn't that part of the reason behind the state sponsored MURDER of so many leaders in the 1960s and 1970s? Sure as hell it was. To subvert the "american republic" to the will of the Secret Team and to discourage taking it to the street. Witness the Co-Intell Program and all the rest that we all know of and Watergate. All great dangers to my nation but still unaddressed and unremedied all these decades later. Corruption brings down Empires through out history another lesson untaught and unlearned in 2006 as well a great empowering deeds for the Fascisti that assail my Republic and We The People.

The silent fools that have watched as the social programs and education funds WERE STOLEN to be handed to most favored corporations, the DoD and punk criminals like Halliburton and Blackwater Security BEAR a personal responsibility.
A huge lack of critical thinking skills and involvement in the political process are also part of the problem.

Hell taking to the street is LONG OVER DUE. If not already too late as the rise of fascism has already progressed nicely.

Count me and mine in, Terri.

Jim
Tim Gratz
What a bunch of --sorry, I never use ther language that best fits!

But I will say that the follies of MoveOn help explain why there is a Republican President and a Republican Congress. The farther to the left the Democrat Party moves, the harder it is for the Dems to elect a President. The Clintons understand this (which is why Hilary is doing her best to paint herself as a "moderate"). If the MoveOn people are able to force the Dems to nominate a leftist rather than a moderate for president in 2008, it will help guarantee four more years of a Republican WH.

So I say: go fot it!
Jim Hackett II
To which of us do you refer there Tim?

Ask me if I give a sh*t. Yep I'll use the word

Some worked to empower people as opposed to some that worked to subvert and STEAL the American People's voice to speak to power. It is clear which is which. Your history is known. It shames me to think I served this nation to preserve the freedom of some people. But I did and would again if threats were real and not manufactured to empower an UnAmerican Agenda.

Some have worked in community based kitchens to feed the people abandoned by the GOP, some know the need, some cannot see it - until it is too late. Some know the fruit of the GOP/Gingrich/Reagan/Meese/Bu$h1 and 2.
Some couldn't see it even after it lands on their own head as it surely will - ask the German People.

I will not go quietly into the long dark night of living in a Police State of NEOCONS. This is not yet a Fascist nation and you slandering an idea DOES NOT NEGATE THE POSITION.

Or to put in another way Your failure to be informed doesn't invalidate my position no matter how hard you wish it were so.

But then again I would guess you have never listened to hungry kids crying going to sleep because the GOP cut all help in 1996. An inexcusable event in a nation a wealthy as this one. As is the state of public education currently.

A society and body politic CANNOT ever WORK when based on GREED as the GOP IS. Nor can it last.
The GOP only used to despise the poor but now they have declared war on the poor.
Parallel to events in Nazi Germany aslo financed by Wall Street and GOP powers like Prescott Bu$h and Averill Herriman and Fritz Thyssen. Like GranPa like Son like GrandSon. All BUSTED but unindicted and unpunished for crimes.

Nice work if you can get it.

All this has very little to do with MoveOn as is plain.
Jeb and W like Nixon thought all was in hand too in 1972 but Nixon bombed it and so have the Bu$hes.
Keep dreaming NEOCONS. Katrina, Lies for War and saber rattling to Iran - keep it up over estimate your position.
GOP in 2008? Not in even Tim's dreams.
The GOP isn't going to hold the House or Senate in 2006 as they know but refuse to admit.
Ya blew it LOSERS.

Jim
Terry Mauro
QUOTE (Tim Gratz @ Jan 28 2006, 07:18 PM) *
What a bunch of --sorry, I never use ther language that best fits!

But I will say that the follies of MoveOn help explain why there is a Republican President and a Republican Congress. The farther to the left the Democrat Party moves, the harder it is for the Dems to elect a President. The Clintons understand this (which is why Hilary is doing her best to paint herself as a "moderate"). If the MoveOn people are able to force the Dems to nominate a leftist rather than a moderate for president in 2008, it will help guarantee four more years of a Republican WH.

So I say: go fot it!


**********************************************

"The farther to the left the Democrat Party moves, the harder it is for the Dems to elect a President."

Oh really? I've never considered the Democratic party, let alone MoveOn, to be that far to the Left. At least, not in the same sense as you fascist people have taken the Republican party to the Right. Then again, from what I've observed in recent years especially since 1994, is that of one party two branches. Give it whatever name you wish, but it's surely not the Republican party of my father's, or Eisenhower's.
Tim Carroll
QUOTE (Terry Mauro @ Jan 28 2006, 12:20 PM) *
Give it whatever name you wish, but it's surely not the Republican party of my father's, or Eisenhower's.

This current bunch makes Nixon look like a bleeding heart liberal. Even Nancy Reagan can't abide these Neo-Confederates. The South Shall Rise Again, indeed....

T.C.
Terry Mauro
QUOTE (Tim Carroll @ Jan 28 2006, 08:54 PM) *
QUOTE (Terry Mauro @ Jan 28 2006, 12:20 PM) *
Give it whatever name you wish, but it's surely not the Republican party of my father's, or Eisenhower's.

This current bunch makes Nixon look like a bleeding heart liberal. Even Nancy Reagan can't abide these Neo-Confederates. The South Shall Rise Again, indeed....

T.C.


*******************************************
"This current bunch makes Nixon look like a bleeding heart liberal."

You got that right, T.C.! thumb.gif
Terry Mauro
QUOTE (Jim Hackett II @ Jan 28 2006, 07:35 PM) *
To which of us do you refer there Tim?

Ask me if I give a sh*t. Yep I'll use the word

Some worked to empower people as opposed to some that worked to subvert and STEAL the American People's voice to speak to power. It is clear which is which. Your history is known. It shames me to think I served this nation to preserve the freedom of some people. But I did and would again if threats were real and not manufactured to empower an UnAmerican Agenda.

Some have worked in community based kitchens to feed the people abandoned by the GOP, some know the need, some cannot see it - until it is too late. Some know the fruit of the GOP/Gingrich/Reagan/Meese/Bu$h1 and 2.
Some couldn't see it even after it lands on their own head as it surely will - ask the German People.

I will not go quietly into the long dark night of living in a Police State of NEOCONS. This is not yet a Fascist nation and you slandering an idea DOES NOT NEGATE THE POSITION.

Or to put in another way Your failure to be informed doesn't invalidate my position no matter how hard you wish it were so.

But then again I would guess you have never listened to hungry kids crying going to sleep because the GOP cut all help in 1996. An inexcusable event in a nation a wealthy as this one. As is the state of public education currently.

A society and body politic CANNOT ever WORK when based on GREED as the GOP IS. Nor can it last.
The GOP only used to despise the poor but now they have declared war on the poor.
Parallel to events in Nazi Germany aslo financed by Wall Street and GOP powers like Prescott Bu$h and Averill Herriman and Fritz Thyssen. Like GranPa like Son like GrandSon. All BUSTED but unindicted and unpunished for crimes.

Nice work if you can get it.

All this has very little to do with MoveOn as is plain.
Jeb and W like Nixon thought all was in hand too in 1972 but Nixon bombed it and so have the Bu$hes.
Keep dreaming NEOCONS. Katrina, Lies for War and saber rattling to Iran - keep it up over estimate your position.
GOP in 2008? Not in even Tim's dreams.
The GOP isn't going to hold the House or Senate in 2006 as they know but refuse to admit.
Ya blew it LOSERS.

Jim


******************************************************

"I will not go quietly into the long dark night of living in a Police State of NEOCONS. This is not yet a Fascist nation and you slandering an idea DOES NOT NEGATE THE POSITION."

To which I will add:

"Don't Take Me Alive"

Agents of the law
Luckless pedestrian
I know you're out there
With rage in your eyes and your megaphones
Saying all is forgiven
Mad Dog surrender
How can I answer
A man of my mind can do anything

[Chorus:]
I'm a bookkeeper's son
I don't want to shoot no one
Well I crossed my old man back in Oregon
Don't take me alive
Got a case of dynamite
I could hold out here all night
Yes I crossed my old man back in Oregon
Don't take me alive

Can you hear the evil crowd
The lies and the laughter
I hear my inside
The mechanized hum of another world
Where no sun is shining
No red light flashing
Here in this darkness
I know what I've done
I know all at once who I am

[Chorus]


All songs by Walter Becker and Donald Fagen

************************************************

THE ROYAL SCAM

And they wandered in
From the city of St. John
Without a dime
Wearing coats that shined
Both red and green
Colors from their sunny island
From their boats of iron
They looked upon the promised land
Where surely life was sweet
On the rising tide
To New York City
Did they ride into the street
See the glory
Of the royal scam

They are hounded down
To the bottom of a bad town
Amid the ruins
Where they learn to fear
An angry race of fallen kings
Their dark companions
While the memory of
Their southern sky was clouded by
A savage winter
Every patron saint
Hung on the wall, shared the room
With twenty sinners

See the glory
Of the royal scam

By the blackened wall
He does it all
He thinks he's died and gone to heaven
Now the tale is told
By the old man back home
He reads the letter
How they are paid in gold
Just to babble in the back room
All night and waste their time
And they wandered in
From the city of St. John without a dime

See the glory
Of the royal scam


All songs by Walter Becker and Donald Fagen
Pat Speer
QUOTE (Tim Gratz @ Jan 28 2006, 08:18 PM) *
What a bunch of --sorry, I never use ther language that best fits!

But I will say that the follies of MoveOn help explain why there is a Republican President and a Republican Congress. The farther to the left the Democrat Party moves, the harder it is for the Dems to elect a President. The Clintons understand this (which is why Hilary is doing her best to paint herself as a "moderate"). If the MoveOn people are able to force the Dems to nominate a leftist rather than a moderate for president in 2008, it will help guarantee four more years of a Republican WH.

So I say: go fot it!


Tim, it works both ways. If the neocons continue with what they're doing, they are gonna lose the center and a ton of elephants are gonna jump out of the pen. It could be the election of 64 all over again.

The brightest hope I see for the elephants is McCain, and then only if he picks a moderate running mate and disavows Bush.

If the elephants kill Roe v. Wade they'll lose the vote of women for the foreseeable future, much as civil rights cost the Dems the southern vote in the sixties.
Frank Agbat
QUOTE (Pat Speer @ Jan 29 2006, 01:17 AM) *
QUOTE (Tim Gratz @ Jan 28 2006, 08:18 PM) *

What a bunch of --sorry, I never use ther language that best fits!

But I will say that the follies of MoveOn help explain why there is a Republican President and a Republican Congress. The farther to the left the Democrat Party moves, the harder it is for the Dems to elect a President. The Clintons understand this (which is why Hilary is doing her best to paint herself as a "moderate"). If the MoveOn people are able to force the Dems to nominate a leftist rather than a moderate for president in 2008, it will help guarantee four more years of a Republican WH.

So I say: go fot it!


Tim, it works both ways. If the neocons continue with what they're doing, they are gonna lose the center and a ton of elephants are gonna jump out of the pen. It could be the election of 64 all over again.

The brightest hope I see for the elephants is McCain, and then only if he picks a moderate running mate and disavows Bush.

If the elephants kill Roe v. Wade they'll lose the vote of women for the foreseeable future, much as civil rights cost the Dems the southern vote in the sixties.


I rarely enter into the political fray on this forum, and will probably end up regretting this post... I think the political venom that flows on this forum is often counter-productive in achieving the ultimate goal: Solving the assassination of JFK. Anyway...

Pat makes a good point here.

To me, it seems like the two major parties are *both* diverging from the mythical "center" of the left-right political spectrum. Yet, both major parties show no sign of moving away from a "fed-heavy" "statist" mentality (spend, spend, spend, ignore the constitution when it comes to state's rights vs. federal, spend).

I'm a confirmed Libertarian (note -- NOT a 'Libertarian Socialist'), which tends to put me in a position where I can provide more neutral observations where others are deep into a passionate argument about something in which they believe. I have left-leaning views on some things (personal freedoms, privacy, etc), and right-leaning views on others (fiscal responsibility, personal responsibility). This tends to freak-out traditional hard-line party politics types (of either party), incidentally. Great fun at parties!

What I see is the right moving to the fringe areas of their own supporters -- as Pat noted. Not everyone who votes conservative is a "NeoCon" or a member of the "religious right." The current administration has lost touch with those of us that are fiscal conservatives by spending like a drunken sailor. They have lost touch with those of us that want principled politicians. (They spend a lot of time talking the talk, and little time walking the walk. You know -- the type that go to church on Sunday and put on an epic presentation of their pious righteousness, and then go out Monday and do everything they railed against just 24 hours previously).

The left, on the other hand, would *seemingly* seem poised to make gains, yet their inability to develop a more consistent message that resonates with the middle of the country looks like it might limit this. They have adopted a polarized position (undoubtedly in response to the polarization thrown at them by the right), embracing nearly every cause and position that opposes the current administration, regardless of whether that position will sit well, morally or otherwise, with the red or purple states.

If McCain is able to shake off the (perceived or otherwise) ties to the current administration, he may have a message that resonates well in "purple" areas. This country never spends too much time on either end of our (rather limited, in reality, when compared to the rest of the world) political spectrum. The pendulum will inevitably swing leftward at some point -- just when, how fast, and how far is the question.

So, I won't be spending any time at moveon.org OR moveoff.org... My plug is for: http://lp.org
John Simkin
This is just another example of Tim Gratz's right-wing extremist views. The idea that the Democratic Party is left-wing is ridiculous. One of the problems in America is that the only two political parties with any chance of governing are on the right. The same is true of the UK. That is why it is so difficult to persuade people to vote in elections. When this happens, democracy ceases to function.

The last honest Republican president was Dwight Eisenhower. Here is an extract from his last speech as president. (17th January, 1961)

Three days from now, after half a century in the service of our country, I shall lay down the responsibilities of office as, in traditional and solemn ceremony, the authority of the Presidency is vested in my successor.

This evening I come to you with a message of leave-taking and farewell, and to share a few final thoughts with you, my countrymen...

Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence - economic, political, even spiritual - is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.


It should be remembered that in the original draft he wrote the "military-industrial-congressional complex". He was pressurized into removing the word "congressional". Who was the head of this group in Congress? Who was the man who organized these government contracts for companies like Brown & Root (Halliburton), Betchel-McCone, Bell Helicopters, etc.? Lyndon Baines Johnson.
Tim Carroll
QUOTE (John Simkin @ Jan 28 2006, 10:11 PM) *
The last honest Republican president was Dwight Eisenhower. Here is an extract from his last speech as president. (17th January, 1961)Three days from now, after half a century in the service of our country, I shall lay down the responsibilities of office as, in traditional and solemn ceremony, the authority of the Presidency is vested in my successor.... This evening I come to you with a message of leave-taking and farewell, and to share a few final thoughts with you, my countrymen... In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

Eisenhower's farewell address warning against the unwarranted influence of the military industrial complex is one of the great modern presidential statements. But this statement came from what is called "retirement wisdom," which can speak to truth the way no active politician can afford to do. Eisenhower had built a massive nuclear arsenal while knowing from the U-2 flights that it was strategically unwarranted. His dream of cashing in with a beneficial peace through strength, to be codified at the Paris Summit, was betrayed and destroyed.

In America, the historically entrenched perception that liberals are ill-equipped to wage war led directly to every Senate Democrat with presidential aspirations voting to authorize Bush's Iraq aggression. No "peace candidate" has been viable since Bobby Kennedy's murder, and liberals find themselves trapped by this framework. They constantly have to overcompensate to prove they are not soft. The Republicans have good reason to continue to hope that American voters will never ultimately elect a president who isn't a saber rattler.

T.C.
Tim Gratz
I think both Pat's post and Frank's post were well-taken.

It has long been an observation of political scientists that the majority of political activists within a party (at least since 1964) tend to be ideologically-driven and more liberal or conservative than the "swing" voters. I was recently reading an excellent book on the 1968 election ("An American Melodrama") and it makes a point that Ronald Reagan made a very serious attempt to wrest the nomination from Richard Nixon. Nixon had to make herculean efforts (with assistance from Strom Thurmond) to prevent the Reagan forces from eroding his support in the Southern states. But in the general election Nixon had to appeal to the great "center": the swing voters who are not ideologically driven. (Ironically, the "swing" or "undecided" voters are often the least informed politically.) The same thing was true with Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.

Interesting that John Simkin thinks that my idea that the Democrat Party is "left-wing" is ridiculous. From John's perspective as a socialist, that may indeed be true. But that comment demonstrates what little understanding John has of the American electorate. The partisans in the Democrat Party are far to the left of the American public (and I would agree with Pat that there are partisans in the Republican Party that are far to the right of the American public.)

I agree with Frank's point that President Bush is certainly not a fiscal conservative. I appreciated Frank's exposition of his political philosophy. Although I am sure I would not agree with Frank's position on several issues, it is clear that he has put much thought into his position. I am sure it is almost always true that, for a thoughtful person, one hardly finds a presidential candidate whose views are totally consistent with his or her own. Often the choice may come down to which candidate is closer to your views on most of the issues (or on the issues that are most important to you).

IMO, the issue of greatest importance to most Americans right now is protecting the security of the country from terrorist attacks. If the Democrats cede this issue to the Republicans, they will forfeit any chance of recapturing the White House.
John Simkin
QUOTE (Frank Agbat @ Jan 29 2006, 02:18 AM) *
I'm a confirmed Libertarian (note -- NOT a 'Libertarian Socialist'), which tends to put me in a position where I can provide more neutral observations where others are deep into a passionate argument about something in which they believe. I have left-leaning views on some things (personal freedoms, privacy, etc), and right-leaning views on others (fiscal responsibility, personal responsibility). This tends to freak-out traditional hard-line party politics types (of either party), incidentally. Great fun at parties!

What I see is the right moving to the fringe areas of their own supporters -- as Pat noted. Not everyone who votes conservative is a "NeoCon" or a member of the "religious right." The current administration has lost touch with those of us that are fiscal conservatives by spending like a drunken sailor. They have lost touch with those of us that want principled politicians. (They spend a lot of time talking the talk, and little time walking the walk. You know -- the type that go to church on Sunday and put on an epic presentation of their pious righteousness, and then go out Monday and do everything they railed against just 24 hours previously).

My plug is for: http://lp.org


I am on the libertarian left. I agree with most of the policies posted on this website. Where I tend to disagree with American libertarians is the issue of progressive income tax. This is the most effective strategy for redistributing wealth and power currently available in capitalist societies. Wealth and power are inextricably linked. You cannot redistribute power without redistributing wealth.

I also support your views on fiscal and personal responsibility. One of the great myths is that right-wing governments are in favour of reduced government spending. I know they always say they are (Ronald Reagan, George Bush, etc.) but they never deliver. The main reason is that the corporations who provide the funding for their political campaigns, are in favour of increased spending in certain areas. They are in fact after the government contracts on defence spending, etc. The money that corporations give to politicians is seen as a business expense, not some form of charity.
Tim Gratz
John, believe it or not, I agree with the thrust of your second paragraph.
Jim Hackett II
While I agree with most of the observations above in this thread to include a progressive income tax, however I think the central point that opened the thread is the loss of a voice of the People to Speak to Power. I.E. the corporations that are running the american political game and has for decades by control of the money for campaigns. The rich cannot be taxed they will not stand for it, taxation is for the other class of the society.

Wherever "the people" fall on any political spectrum is largely irrelevant because of the defacto control of the process. In the pre 1960 era the GOP was not the party of fascists and I agree that Dwight Eisenhower was the last honest GOP President.

About 1968 a couple of things were overlooked or unstated.

The murder of the candidate that would have ended the war and avoided the beginning of the Nixon Abuses of the process. It is clear that without murder Nixon would never have been elected. The only viable peace candidate died and the crime has never been properly investigated, in fact the crime has been obscured by LAPD and various CIA trained officers of LAPD and Special Unit Senator.

1968's election had more to do with murder and the splitting of the Democratic party by the Wallace effort than the sleeping RReagan, another fascist in GOP clothes. Rampart Station of LAPD was dirty long before Darrel Gates became Chief.

Any objective examination of the man's deeds as Governor of California makes clear that RReagan was MADE by the same interests that created the political career of Nixon - the Arms Manufacturers of California, Lockheed, North American Aviation etc., as well as the "Old Boys" of the CIA/OSS that in fact ran the US Government through the NSC after 1947. RReagan's efforts would be rewarded soon enough though.

All those angry spooks fired in President Carter's half-a**ed effort to rein in the CIA/DIA/NSA spook empire did not go off into civilian retirement at peace. They worked their subversion on the American People and Casey and Bush manufactured the October Surprise to put the radical right back in power. A prime example of the theft of the voice of the people to speak to power. The assets had serious reason to be afraid of the fallout from Watergate and attending exposures, like JAIL in other than a Fort Holabird camp Fed skate.

The invisible government could never tolerate another 4 years of Pike and Church as Representatives of the People opening the vaults of the CIA etc. to expose the theft of the Republic's processes from the consent of the governed. The exposure of things done in the American people's name NONE would ever approve both inside the US and outside the US most often to protect the Corporations with United Fruit and Freeport Sulfur being early examples.

It is told that DCIA Stansfield Turner required armed guards at his own office not from anticipated action by "subversives", but from the CIA assets still employed after he fired their "friends". Demonstrating that the President DOES NOT rule the spook empires but that the Spook Empires run the Office of President no matter the current occupant. In effect the criminals were put back in power by Casey and Bu$h on the watch of RReagan and provided immunity from prosecution by GHW Bu$h in 1992.

It is simple to examine the history that came of the 1980s and the Bu$h Empire operating under the protection of the talking head RReagan. Secret War and abuse of people in the US opposed to that Central American war. Domestic spying is not a new issue for the 2000s. No matter how hard the GOP wants to CYA.

That exact issue was the opening disclosure that led to Rep. Pike and Sen. Church to use the power of the two intelligence committees to expose the crimes of the criminal empire. A thing too easily forgotten in this age.
I doubt in 1980 the American voter knew that election scams to put the Governor in office were in fact re-empowering the criminals. They found out in Iran-Contra.

There was much more to 1968 than the coronation of Nixon by default. It is a simple thing to examine both political assassinations of that year as silencing another voice speaking to the people to unite all ethnic groups to halt the slide to extreme radical right neofascism. That concept is extremely threatening to the US Government.

Why else would the FBI finance and encourage crimes by the KKK while "infiltrating" it? Again the negation of a differing politcal thought and the voice of We The People was required and good people went to a cold grave for the sake of a war. Patsies provided and "cases closed".

To some extent the American People have gotten exactly what is deserved by being uninvolved and uninformed and uncaring about the Government processes. Maybe they will wake up when another Fat Lady and a Eugene Hasenfeus is shotdown in a way impossible to be covered up or ignored, or maybe a disclosure of the domestic spying episodes of late.

For all the re-empowerment of the spooks they missed the 9-11 plot, Pearl Harbor, The Battle of the Bulge and the assassiantion plot against President Kennedy. Or did they? I think not. So whom do they serve?

NOT WE THE PEOPLE.

A clear violation of the consent of the governed.

Jim
Mark Stapleton
QUOTE (Tim Gratz @ Jan 30 2006, 06:36 AM) *
I think both Pat's post and Frank's post were well-taken.

It has long been an observation of political scientists that the majority of political activists within a party (at least since 1964) tend to be ideologically-driven and more liberal or conservative than the "swing" voters. I was recently reading an excellent book on the 1968 election ("An American Melodrama") and it makes a point that Ronald Reagan made a very serious attempt to wrest the nomination from Richard Nixon. Nixon had to make herculean efforts (with assistance from Strom Thurmond) to prevent the Reagan forces from eroding his support in the Southern states. But in the general election Nixon had to appeal to the great "center": the swing voters who are not ideologically driven. (Ironically, the "swing" or "undecided" voters are often the least informed politically.) The same thing was true with Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.

Interesting that John Simkin thinks that my idea that the Democrat Party is "left-wing" is ridiculous. From John's perspective as a socialist, that may indeed be true. But that comment demonstrates what little understanding John has of the American electorate. The partisans in the Democrat Party are far to the left of the American public (and I would agree with Pat that there are partisans in the Republican Party that are far to the right of the American public.)

I agree with Frank's point that President Bush is certainly not a fiscal conservative. I appreciated Frank's exposition of his political philosophy. Although I am sure I would not agree with Frank's position on several issues, it is clear that he has put much thought into his position. I am sure it is almost always true that, for a thoughtful person, one hardly finds a presidential candidate whose views are totally consistent with his or her own. Often the choice may come down to which candidate is closer to your views on most of the issues (or on the issues that are most important to you).

IMO, the issue of greatest importance to most Americans right now is protecting the security of the country from terrorist attacks. If the Democrats cede this issue to the Republicans, they will forfeit any chance of recapturing the White House.


Tim,

Although the media wants Americans to think that protection from terrorist attacks is the most important issue that they face, I think this is wrong. Far more important issues are the looming global oil crisis and China's apparently unstoppable rise to world economic pre-eminence.

Peak oil has now come and gone and shrinking oil supplies must impel western countries to rapidly find and utilise alternatives. The US consumes 20 million barrels of oil per day--4 times more than the second highest consumer, Japan. It's over-reliance on oil puts it in a strategically vulnerable position, considering the enormous foreign debt and the strain being exerted by China on the economies of all western nations (I read yesterday that France's truffle industry is China's latest conquest). The US Government's failure to encourage reduced oil consumption is a gross abrogation of its responsibilty, IMO. When the inevitable oil price rises occur (remember Iran has threatened to greatly reduce its oil production), the effect on the US economy, with its huge consumption level, will be catastrophic. Some believe the writing is already on the wall for the US economy. Don't be fooled into thinking it can't happen. If the US economy collapses all the missiles and tanks in the world won't help it.

The threat of terrorism is real, but wrapping it up as a patriotic crusade only prevents the US from focusing on more urgent issues. The media pumps up this issue in America, Britain, Australia and other nations because it sells papers and delivers television ratings points. There's no money in talking about the folly of over-reliance on non-renewable energy sources.

China is using its rapidly expanding wealth to undermine western economies. GDP growth was 9.9% last year. By refusing to revalue its currency, other nations are being engulfed by cheap Chinese imports to the extent that China's trade surplus exceeds $100 billion and is increasing at a frightening rate. Basically, that's wealth being tranferred to China every year from its hapless trading partners. It also cleverly allows other nations, primarily the US and Europeans, to pioneer new technology which it then copies, then utilises its massive resource of cheap labor to market these goods at prices which render competition unviable. China has been slow to embrace capitalism but is learning very quickly that it has a strategic advantage over the rest of the world, which it is employing ruthlessly.

These are more important issues than the threat of a terrorist attack. Just my opinion, of course.
Tim Carroll
QUOTE (Tim Carroll @ Jan 29 2006, 12:20 AM) *
QUOTE (John Simkin @ Jan 28 2006, 10:11 PM) *
The last honest Republican president was Dwight Eisenhower.
Eisenhower's farewell address warning against the unwarranted influence of the military industrial complex is one of the great modern presidential statements. But this statement came from what is called "retirement wisdom," which can speak to truth the way no active politician can afford to do.

Almost immediately, 1961 became the year for confrontation between the U.S. and Cuba. On January 3rd, the Cuban Charge de Affairs issued a directive that the number of U.S. diplomatic personnel stationed in Cuba should not exceed eleven. That same day, at a meeting involving the President and his highest foreign policy officials and advisors, it was decided that the U.S. should break off diplomatic relations with Cuba.

Many books have noted that the Cuban exile force in training to seize power from Castro mysteriously grew during the presidential transition period from a small, elite guerrilla force to the 1500 it was later to become. This implies that the CIA exploited a window of opportunity between the controls of the two presidents. However, newly released State Department documents reveal that the change was overtly authorized by the Eisenhower administration at the same January 3rd meeting. Notes on the meeting record that “it was agreed that the number of Cuban exiles being trained for the invasion should be increased, possibly up to 1,500.”

These changes, coming a little over two weeks before Eisenhower left office, represent a last-minute construction that would entrench the planning and force Kennedy’s hand during the beginning of his administration.

Foreign Relations of the U.S., “Cuba, 1961-1962,” Department of State, (Washington D.C.), Vol. X, (http://www./state.gov/www/about_state_history/frusX/01).

T.C.
Terry Mauro
QUOTE (Mark Stapleton @ Jan 30 2006, 04:03 PM) *
QUOTE (Tim Gratz @ Jan 30 2006, 06:36 AM) *

I think both Pat's post and Frank's post were well-taken.

It has long been an observation of political scientists that the majority of political activists within a party (at least since 1964) tend to be ideologically-driven and more liberal or conservative than the "swing" voters. I was recently reading an excellent book on the 1968 election ("An American Melodrama") and it makes a point that Ronald Reagan made a very serious attempt to wrest the nomination from Richard Nixon. Nixon had to make herculean efforts (with assistance from Strom Thurmond) to prevent the Reagan forces from eroding his support in the Southern states. But in the general election Nixon had to appeal to the great "center": the swing voters who are not ideologically driven. (Ironically, the "swing" or "undecided" voters are often the least informed politically.) The same thing was true with Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.

Interesting that John Simkin thinks that my idea that the Democrat Party is "left-wing" is ridiculous. From John's perspective as a socialist, that may indeed be true. But that comment demonstrates what little understanding John has of the American electorate. The partisans in the Democrat Party are far to the left of the American public (and I would agree with Pat that there are partisans in the Republican Party that are far to the right of the American public.)

I agree with Frank's point that President Bush is certainly not a fiscal conservative. I appreciated Frank's exposition of his political philosophy. Although I am sure I would not agree with Frank's position on several issues, it is clear that he has put much thought into his position. I am sure it is almost always true that, for a thoughtful person, one hardly finds a presidential candidate whose views are totally consistent with his or her own. Often the choice may come down to which candidate is closer to your views on most of the issues (or on the issues that are most important to you).

IMO, the issue of greatest importance to most Americans right now is protecting the security of the country from terrorist attacks. If the Democrats cede this issue to the Republicans, they will forfeit any chance of recapturing the White House.


Tim,

Although the media wants Americans to think that protection from terrorist attacks is the most important issue that they face, I think this is wrong. Far more important issues are the looming global oil crisis and China's apparently unstoppable rise to world economic pre-eminence.

Peak oil has now come and gone and shrinking oil supplies must impel western countries to rapidly find and utilise alternatives. The US consumes 20 million barrels of oil per day--4 times more than the second highest consumer, Japan. It's over-reliance on oil puts it in a strategically vulnerable position, considering the enormous foreign debt and the strain being exerted by China on the economies of all western nations (I read yesterday that France's truffle industry is China's latest conquest). The US Government's failure to encourage reduced oil consumption is a gross abrogation of its responsibilty, IMO. When the inevitable oil price rises occur (remember Iran has threatened to greatly reduce its oil production), the effect on the US economy, with its huge consumption level, will be catastrophic. Some believe the writing is already on the wall for the US economy. Don't be fooled into thinking it can't happen. If the US economy collapses all the missiles and tanks in the world won't help it.

The threat of terrorism is real, but wrapping it up as a patriotic crusade only prevents the US from focusing on more urgent issues. The media pumps up this issue in America, Britain, Australia and other nations because it sells papers and delivers television ratings points. There's no money in talking about the folly of over-reliance on non-renewable energy sources.

China is using its rapidly expanding wealth to undermine western economies. GDP growth was 9.9% last year. By refusing to revalue its currency, other nations are being engulfed by cheap Chinese imports to the extent that China's trade surplus exceeds $100 billion and is increasing at a frightening rate. Basically, that's wealth being tranferred to China every year from its hapless trading partners. It also cleverly allows other nations, primarily the US and Europeans, to pioneer new technology which it then copies, then utilises its massive resource of cheap labor to market these goods at prices which render competition unviable. China has been slow to embrace capitalism but is learning very quickly that it has a strategic advantage over the rest of the world, which it is employing ruthlessly.

These are more important issues than the threat of a terrorist attack. Just my opinion, of course.


********************************************************************

"China is using its rapidly expanding wealth to undermine western economies. GDP growth was 9.9% last year. By refusing to revalue its currency, other nations are being engulfed by cheap Chinese imports to the extent that China's trade surplus exceeds $100 billion and is increasing at a frightening rate. Basically, that's wealth being tranferred to China every year from its hapless trading partners. It also cleverly allows other nations, primarily the US and Europeans, to pioneer new technology which it then copies, then utilises its massive resource of cheap labor to market these goods at prices which render competition unviable. China has been slow to embrace capitalism but is learning very quickly that it has a strategic advantage over the rest of the world, which it is employing ruthlessly.

These are more important issues than the threat of a terrorist attack. Just my opinion, of course."


And, you're right on the money with that one, Mark. No pun intended. China's having a field day with GATT. How did that old adage, attributed to the Chinese, go again? They had a saying, "Don't get mad, get even."
Well guess what, folks?
Tim Gratz
To Mark Stapleton:

I liked your post about the importance of energy police so much that I e-maied it to Geoge last night and he thus decided to make energy policy an important part of his SOTU speech.
Mark Stapleton
QUOTE (Tim Gratz @ Feb 1 2006, 05:15 AM) *
To Mark Stapleton:

I liked your post about the importance of energy police so much that I e-maied it to Geoge last night and he thus decided to make energy policy an important part of his SOTU speech.


Extremely witty, Tim--nice retort. I assume you mean energy policy, but anyway I happen to know that GWB doesn't take advice from ordinary, common, garden variety right wing fanatics such as your good self. No sir, he has his own special, homegrown RW fanatics giving him sage advice. These ones have a hotline to the man upstairs so if GWB stuffs up he has an infallible excuse, "It was the will of Gaaarrd".
Stephen Turner
QUOTE (Tim Gratz @ Feb 1 2006, 06:15 AM) *
To Mark Stapleton:

I liked your post about the importance of energy police so much that I e-maied it to Geoge last night and he thus decided to make energy policy an important part of his SOTU speech.


Tim, I hope you spelt out all the long words phonetically En-er-gy, Pol-i-cy, Bal-ance of pay-ment-s def-i-cit.
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