As John Hunt has pointed out at the Lancer conference and online, the entrance wound on Kennedy's head was unusually large for the caliber of the fatal bullet. John has suggested that the bullet was of a larger caliber than a .22. When one reads about gunshot wounds, however, one finds references to over-sized entrances created by the explosion of gases back out of the skull when the gun is held against the head. Indeed, the autopsy conducted by Noguchi concluded the fatal shot was fired when the gun was pressed against Kennedy's skull. While reading on this issue in Scientific Evidence in Criminal Cases yesterday I noticed something which may be of importance. It says "A gaping wound may be caused by the explosive force of gases tearing and blowing back the skin, especially when there is bone backing the skin, i.e., flat bones of the skull. The bone behaves like a hard surface and, collaterally, there may be a back-splash of blood onto the hand holding the gun."
Are there photos of Cesar and Sirhan directly after the shooting which portray their hands? If Sirhan has blood on his hands, but not Cesar, well, that's to be expected, but if Cesar has blood on his hands, but not Sirhan... We need to inspect all the photos and look for a man with blood on his hands...literally.
Full Version: Blood on the hands?
QUOTE (Pat Speer @ May 22 2006, 10:28 PM) 
As John Hunt has pointed out at the Lancer conference and online, the entrance wound on Kennedy's head was unusually large for the caliber of the fatal bullet. John has suggested that the bullet was of a larger caliber than a .22. When one reads about gunshot wounds, however, one finds references to over-sized entrances created by the explosion of gases back out of the skull when the gun is held against the head. Indeed, the autopsy conducted by Noguchi concluded the fatal shot was fired when the gun was pressed against Kennedy's skull. While reading on this issue in Scientific Evidence in Criminal Cases yesterday I noticed something which may be of importance. It says "A gaping wound may be caused by the explosive force of gases tearing and blowing back the skin, especially when there is bone backing the skin, i.e., flat bones of the skull. The bone behaves like a hard surface and, collaterally, there may be a back-splash of blood onto the hand holding the gun."
Are there photos of Cesar and Sirhan directly after the shooting which portray their hands? If Sirhan has blood on his hands, but not Cesar, well, that's to be expected, but if Cesar has blood on his hands, but not Sirhan... We need to inspect all the photos and look for a man with blood on his hands...literally.
Are there photos of Cesar and Sirhan directly after the shooting which portray their hands? If Sirhan has blood on his hands, but not Cesar, well, that's to be expected, but if Cesar has blood on his hands, but not Sirhan... We need to inspect all the photos and look for a man with blood on his hands...literally.
Pat,
Without having read your source, this was along the same lines I was thinking when I earlier asked John about considerations of increased wound path diameter due to point-blank firing against hard-surface bone (the EOP behind the right ear), and also the possiblities of a snub-nosed revolver making a difference (compared with "factory-certified" revolvers). This was in the Eugene Thane Cesar thread and you might want to double-check John's response there (though you've probably already done so).
I agree absolutely with your suggestion about "blood on the hands." It could at least clarify the issue about Sirhan himself. (You would think there should be considerable eyewitness testimony and LAPD report evidence on this even if there was no clear photographic evidence?) As you know, I am under a "gag order" of sorts, but my thinking is increasingly growing away from Cesar as a gunman and more to him being a "facilitator." But that would mean any other evidence for someone other than Cesar or Sirhan needing to wipe something off their hand would be very important.
Dan
QUOTE (Pat Speer @ May 22 2006, 11:28 PM)
As John Hunt has pointed out at the Lancer conference and online, the entrance wound on Kennedy's head was unusually large for the caliber of the fatal bullet. John has suggested that the bullet was of a larger caliber than a .22. When one reads about gunshot wounds, however, one finds references to over-sized entrances created by the explosion of gases back out of the skull when the gun is held against the head. Indeed, the autopsy conducted by Noguchi concluded the fatal shot was fired when the gun was pressed against Kennedy's skull. While reading on this issue in Scientific Evidence in Criminal Cases yesterday I noticed something which may be of importance. It says "A gaping wound may be caused by the explosive force of gases tearing and blowing back the skin, especially when there is bone backing the skin, i.e., flat bones of the skull. The bone behaves like a hard surface and, collaterally, there may be a back-splash of blood onto the hand holding the gun."
Are there photos of Cesar and Sirhan directly after the shooting which portray their hands? If Sirhan has blood on his hands, but not Cesar, well, that's to be expected, but if Cesar has blood on his hands, but not Sirhan... We need to inspect all the photos and look for a man with blood on his hands...literally.
Are there photos of Cesar and Sirhan directly after the shooting which portray their hands? If Sirhan has blood on his hands, but not Cesar, well, that's to be expected, but if Cesar has blood on his hands, but not Sirhan... We need to inspect all the photos and look for a man with blood on his hands...literally.
Pat,
"Indeed, the autopsy conducted by Noguchi concluded the fatal shot was fired when the gun was pressed against Kennedy's skull. " Noguchi concluded the muxxle was not in contact with the skin, but was two inched from the ear. The entry wound was not a contact wound.
John Hunt
QUOTE (John Hunt @ May 24 2006, 02:56 PM)
QUOTE (Pat Speer @ May 22 2006, 11:28 PM)
As John Hunt has pointed out at the Lancer conference and online, the entrance wound on Kennedy's head was unusually large for the caliber of the fatal bullet. John has suggested that the bullet was of a larger caliber than a .22. When one reads about gunshot wounds, however, one finds references to over-sized entrances created by the explosion of gases back out of the skull when the gun is held against the head. Indeed, the autopsy conducted by Noguchi concluded the fatal shot was fired when the gun was pressed against Kennedy's skull. While reading on this issue in Scientific Evidence in Criminal Cases yesterday I noticed something which may be of importance. It says "A gaping wound may be caused by the explosive force of gases tearing and blowing back the skin, especially when there is bone backing the skin, i.e., flat bones of the skull. The bone behaves like a hard surface and, collaterally, there may be a back-splash of blood onto the hand holding the gun."
Are there photos of Cesar and Sirhan directly after the shooting which portray their hands? If Sirhan has blood on his hands, but not Cesar, well, that's to be expected, but if Cesar has blood on his hands, but not Sirhan... We need to inspect all the photos and look for a man with blood on his hands...literally.
Pat,
"Indeed, the autopsy conducted by Noguchi concluded the fatal shot was fired when the gun was pressed against Kennedy's skull. " Noguchi concluded the muxxle was not in contact with the skin, but was two inched from the ear. The entry wound was not a contact wound.
John Hunt
My bad. I interpreted Noguchi's comments that the shot was fired point-blank to mean the muzzle was on the skull. In re-reading Coroner, he makes the statement that the gun was fired "one-inch from the edge of his right-ear, only three inches behind the head." He also said "At three inches from the right mastoid area, I discovered we had a perfect match of the tattoo pattern of unburned pattern grains on Kennedy's right ear. At this distance, the shape of the entrance wound was also duplicated, and it accounted for the carbon particles found in Kennedy's hair." It sounds like he's describing a shot from the right front of Kennedy which just barely missed his ear and hit his right mastoid process almost at a tangent, thereby creating a larger than normal wound. And yet the bullet went into Kennedy's brain, did it not? Did it deflect towards the middle of the brain upon entry? Is the autopsy report online? Perhaps we've misunderstood Ole Tom all these years. When he says "three inches behind the head" it sure sounds like he means "three inches from the entrance on the back of the head."
“My bad. I interpreted Noguchi's comments that the shot was fired point-blank to mean the muzzle was on the skull. In re-reading Coroner, he makes the statement that the gun was fired "one-inch from the edge of his right-ear, only three inches behind the head." He also said "At three inches from the right mastoid area, I discovered we had a perfect match of the tattoo pattern of unburned pattern grains on Kennedy's right ear. At this distance, the shape of the entrance wound was also duplicated, and it accounted for the carbon particles found in Kennedy's hair."
The inshoot on the skin and bone was gone when Noguchi saw the body. The basis for his comment “the shape of the entrance wound was also duplicated” is unknown.
“It sounds like he's describing a shot from the right front of Kennedy which just barely missed his ear and hit his right mastoid process almost at a tangent, thereby creating a larger than normal wound.”
He concluded that the bullet went forward of the entry hole. That is where the largest fragment was found. I cover this in detail in Pt. 2 of the essay, which I hope to have out in June.
“And yet the bullet went into Kennedy's brain, did it not? Did it deflect towards the middle of the brain upon entry? Is the autopsy report online?”
No.
"Perhaps we've misunderstood Ole Tom all these years. When he says "three inches behind the head" it sure sounds like he means "three inches from the entrance on the back of the head."
The inshoot on the skin and bone was gone when Noguchi saw the body. The basis for his comment “the shape of the entrance wound was also duplicated” is unknown.
“It sounds like he's describing a shot from the right front of Kennedy which just barely missed his ear and hit his right mastoid process almost at a tangent, thereby creating a larger than normal wound.”
He concluded that the bullet went forward of the entry hole. That is where the largest fragment was found. I cover this in detail in Pt. 2 of the essay, which I hope to have out in June.
“And yet the bullet went into Kennedy's brain, did it not? Did it deflect towards the middle of the brain upon entry? Is the autopsy report online?”
No.
"Perhaps we've misunderstood Ole Tom all these years. When he says "three inches behind the head" it sure sounds like he means "three inches from the entrance on the back of the head."
QUOTE (John Hunt @ May 25 2006, 03:48 PM)
“My bad. I interpreted Noguchi's comments that the shot was fired point-blank to mean the muzzle was on the skull. In re-reading Coroner, he makes the statement that the gun was fired "one-inch from the edge of his right-ear, only three inches behind the head." He also said "At three inches from the right mastoid area, I discovered we had a perfect match of the tattoo pattern of unburned pattern grains on Kennedy's right ear. At this distance, the shape of the entrance wound was also duplicated, and it accounted for the carbon particles found in Kennedy's hair."
The inshoot on the skin and bone was gone when Noguchi saw the body. The basis for his comment “the shape of the entrance wound was also duplicated” is unknown.
“It sounds like he's describing a shot from the right front of Kennedy which just barely missed his ear and hit his right mastoid process almost at a tangent, thereby creating a larger than normal wound.”
He concluded that the bullet went forward of the entry hole. That is where the largest fragment was found. I cover this in detail in Pt. 2 of the essay, which I hope to have out in June.
“And yet the bullet went into Kennedy's brain, did it not? Did it deflect towards the middle of the brain upon entry? Is the autopsy report online?”
No.
"Perhaps we've misunderstood Ole Tom all these years. When he says "three inches behind the head" it sure sounds like he means "three inches from the entrance on the back of the head."
The inshoot on the skin and bone was gone when Noguchi saw the body. The basis for his comment “the shape of the entrance wound was also duplicated” is unknown.
“It sounds like he's describing a shot from the right front of Kennedy which just barely missed his ear and hit his right mastoid process almost at a tangent, thereby creating a larger than normal wound.”
He concluded that the bullet went forward of the entry hole. That is where the largest fragment was found. I cover this in detail in Pt. 2 of the essay, which I hope to have out in June.
“And yet the bullet went into Kennedy's brain, did it not? Did it deflect towards the middle of the brain upon entry? Is the autopsy report online?”
No.
"Perhaps we've misunderstood Ole Tom all these years. When he says "three inches behind the head" it sure sounds like he means "three inches from the entrance on the back of the head."
John Hunt
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.