How long, prior to 11-22, do you believe the conspirators had to plan the assassination?

In other words, from making the decision, gathering the team, selecting the locations, deciding who would be in various positions, securing firearms, etc.

Did they have one week to decide? A month?

Do you believe they took as long as six months to plan the assassination in Dealey Plaza?

The fake backyard photos were fabricated in March, so the plot was
already underway to frame the patsy.

Jack

Peter, thank you for posting this. You had already posted it in reply to another question but it's an interesting speech. I have Harvey and Lee in my library but this is a nice summation.





For the summer of '63 machinations to have been effective, I would think spring of '63 at least. Prior to that LHO seemed terribly unfocused.

MARK, JFK WAS DOOMED FROM THE MOMENT THAT LBJ ACCEPTED THE VICE PRESIDENT POSITION ON THE DEMOCRATIC TICKET, A DECISION THAT WAS MADE AT THE LA HOTEL DURING THE 1960 DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION. THAT'S WHERE PHIL GRAHAM OF THE WASINGTON POST AND JOHN CONNALLY CONVINCED LBJ TO TAKE THE SECOND SPOT, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT 20% OR 1 OUT OF 5 US PRESIDENTS DIED IN OFFICE. LBJ REPLIED THAT THOSE ODDS COULD BE IMPROVED.

BK

This thing was so well thought out and carried out. It was not something that was put together in a few months, or even a year. I agree totally with Mr. Kelly on this point.

And I totally agree with the total agreement. I don't think there's any way LBJ would have given up his post as senate majority leader for a warm pitcher of spit unless he knew he'd be climbing over the real President's body. I'm not convinced that Madeline Brown really heard all she said she heard, but I do believe that the essence of her account is accurate. There's no way that two men as evil as Johnson and HL Hunt would sit back and hope...

I'm even leaning towards thinking that the Bay of Pigs was a trap for President Kennedy. I envision a motive of making the new president look like an incompetent, and more important getting the right wing cuban exiles to dispise him. By priming the exiles in this way, they could then be used by Johnson and Hunt and the CIA/mob--who had their own motives, protecting war profits among them--to do the dirty work.

The assassination became urgent for LBJ in Nov of '63 because of the Bobby Baker case.

But JFK became president when an array of snakes were poised to strike. He might have been spared if he'd turned out to be a like minded snake, but he turned out to be a fascist's nightmare--a president who thought he worked for the people.

Thanks for the Armstrong speech Peter. A great piece of work. I agree with most of you on this. I beleive LBJ {and cronies} were figuring a way to get rid of JFK from the time he took office. LBJ was not going to be happy sitting there playing second fiddle to anyone. He knew it was just a token position. He didnt work all those years to be the "second man". [see my post in "The Assassination of JFK"] The ducks began to start lining up from the beginning after the Bay of Pigs fiasco, and it snowballed from there. Many people began to have reasons to get rid of JFK for their own reasons. [Mafia, CIA, Cubans, Hoover, Texas oil men.....etc] Alot of people who could be blamed for the involvement, which is what made it perfect........it turned into complicated mystery. With Ed Clarks help, LBJ had no problem getting things started, and finding more than willing conspirators to help him along the way. FWIW
thanks--smitty

Interesting thread. Have people read Barr McClellan's book "Blood Money and Power, How LBJ Killed JFK"? I thought day one it was LBJ- guess a lot of people did. Later I revised my thinking but the killers still included LBJ. He was not about to be dumped and/or indicted . Barr's book has a lot of factual errors on the case itself, but on LBJ and Ed Clark, I believe it's a must read.
(BTW, he's onto some new information, new leads. More when I know it). I am also encouraging him to be more active here, but his new information and updates are taking up all his itme.

Dawn

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Yeah, but I'll always think of LBJ as a stooge for the Eastern Establishment elitists, who were more concerned with having a puppet in place whom they could easily manipulate to their advantage. They knew they'd be able to bend him to do their bidding by holding the Bobby Baker/Billy Sol Estes debacle over his head. He may have boasted about "Never having to worry about being made out to be an idiot by those Kennedys, again." But, I'm sure he didn't expect JFK to be brutally murdered, either. Maybe, maimed to the point of having to give up running for office in the upcoming election, whereby LBJ would then be given the opportunity to demonstrate his ability to cooperate with the "dogs of war" chiefs-of-staff, and their Wall Street corporate handlers, not to mention guaranteeing that his Tejas oil buddies would be able to continue doing the bidding of their Rockefeller overlords, unimpeded [oil depletion allowances].

I've looked over the Mac Wallace connection, and it more or less resembles a "Jack Ruby" type of alliance, on par with a small-town, country-rural, strong-arm-attempts-at-keeping-our-dirty- laundry-in-in-our-own-backyard, regional form of enforcement. LBJ would never be taken seriously by the power structure behind this coup. He was merely being humored by them, and they knew exactly how to appeal to his po-dunk sensibilities. They played him for all he was worth, and he went along with it for fear of his reputation, and more for his life, towards the end. He agreed with fellow Dixiecrat Richard Russell's protests and utter disbelief with what they were trying to perpetrate on the public in the egregious way the WCR was handling the evidence and conducting the investigation. That emerged from the taped phone conversations that took place from the Whitehouse during the months following the assassination.

I find this section of Armstrong's quite compelling in that respect:

"Now, I have a question for the audience.... How many of you realize that nothing that I have shown or discussed this afternoon has anything to do with the murder of President Kennedy? The Minox camera, W-2 forms, two Oswald wallets, drivers license, school records, backyard photos, altered evidence, suppressed FBI reports... these have absolutely nothing to do with the the murder of President Kennedy--nothing at all. But this suppression and manipulation of evidence has everything to do with hiding the true identity of Oswald, his background, his intelligence connections, and framing him as the assassin. Had the FBI presented unaltered physical evidence and testimony to the public 35 years ago, Oswald's dual identity and the setting up of Harvey as the "patsy" would likely have been discovered. Those responsible for creating the two Oswalds--our intelligence agencies--would have been linked directly to the assassination. To learn which intelligence agency was involved, we again turn to witnesses whose testimony was suppressed:

* the afternoon of the assassination Dallas reporter Seth Kantor was
provided with detailed biographical information on Oswald--before
Oswald's name was broadcast on radio or TV. The information was
supplied by Harold Hendrix, a CIA "media friend" who acted as a
conduit for CIA leaks.
* CIA employee Donald Deneslya (LEFT-SLIDE 87) read reports of a CIA
agent who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the
US with a Russian wife and child--that Agent was Oswald.
* CIA officer David Phillips provided the Warren Commission with
information that Oswald was at the Russian and Cuban embassies in
Mexico City, then later admitted that the information he had
provided was false.
* CIA Agent Donald Norton said "Oswald was with the CIA, and if he did it
then you better believe the whole CIA was involved".
* Former CIA agent Joseph Newbrough said "Oswald was an agent for the
CIA and acting under orders".
* CIA paymaster James Wilcott said he had furnished money for the Oswald
project--code named RX ZIM (LEFT-SLIDE 88). He said it was common
knowledge among his group that Oswald was an agent of the CIA.
* CIA Agent John Garrett Underhill told friends, just before he died,
"Oswald is a patsy. They set him up. They've killed the President. I've
been listening and hearing things. I couldn't believe they'd get away
with it, but they did".
* (LEFT-SLIDE 89) Lyndon Johnson was convinced there was a plot and
that the CIA had something to do with it
* (LEFT-SLIDE 90) CIA Agent William Gaudet said "the man who probably
knows as much as anybody alive on all of this... is... I still think
is Howard Hunt"----CIA Agent and Watergate burglar E. Howard Hunt.

When researchers began to uncover indications of CIA involvement in the assassination, the CIA sent out this memo (LEFT-SLIDE 91). The memo offered suggestions to media assets on how to block and impede investigation of the Kennedy assassination by researchers. The media complied and has supported the Warren Commission findings while ignoring the work of the research community. Whenever a new book is published naming Oswald as the lone assassin, the author is interviewed on national television and his book reviewed by the New York Times. When new information is uncovered that suggests government involvement or hints of a conspiracy, that information is usually attacked, ridiculed or buried in a non-descript article in a small town newspaper. We have learned to doubt the sincerity of the media and question their credibility and motives. But we do not question the existence of a political iron curtain that keeps the work of the research community from reaching the public through the media.

With all of the criticism leveled at the Warren Commission over the years, it is rather ironic that we turn to the Warren Commission to see the best photographic example of Lee Harvey Oswald. This (LEFT-SLIDE 92) Warren Commission exhibit appeared in newspapers at the time of Oswald's "defection" in 1959. When each half of Oswald's face is viewed separately (RIGHT-SLIDE 106), it is easy to see that half of the photo is Harvey, and half is Lee. (LEFT-SLIDE 93)--a creation of the CIA. Exposing and understanding the two "Oswalds" will not solve the Kennedy assassination, but it does give us insight into the illegal covert capabilities of CIA operations and the ability of government agencies to manipulate evidence and concealed their knowledge and involvement with Oswald. We understand why witness testimony was altered and evidence fabricated. We finally realize why Harvey Oswald was not allowed to stand trial and had to be eliminated. After 35 years, many pieces to this puzzle have fallen into place while while others are still elusive--but if you understand who Harvey and Lee Oswald really were, who created them and who directed them, then you will know who was responsible for the assassination of John Kennedy. Thank you for listening."

This is what I've surmized over time and after reading the various pieces of the the puzzle, as its been allowed to unfold. JMHO

Mark

I believe it was sometime around June 12, 1963 when it was decided to move forward with the plan to assassinate the President.

Just a few days prior to this date Kennedy hd changed positions on this countries nuclear disarmament policy. In the same time frame Major General Edwin Walker would resign from the West Point Alumni Association after John J. McCloy was given the Sylvanus Thayer Award. John J. McCloy would write a letter to Major General Edwin Walker explaining his differences with the Kennedy administration and explaining his pride in receiving the Sylvanus Thayer Award. Maxwell Taylor would give a commencement speech at West Point and discuss the importance of a professional military that had been established by Sylvanus Thayer. Each man would indicate that elected officials were only temporary guardians of the Constitution and there position was subject to be changed at any time while the country and the constitution would, should and must continue and be protected.

The single most important date in Thayer's establishment of a professional military was November 22, 1817. Coincidence perhaps but each of these three men had worked together for years. Taylor was first associated with Walker in 1927 and would be used by Taylor repeatedly for sensitive assignments (Little Rock and the First Straits of Taiwan Crisis to name just two). Assisstant Secretary of War John J. McCloy would be associated with Taylor beginning in 1940 when Taylor was assigned as an assisstant to George Marshall in the War Plans Division. Taylor would do several assignments for McCloy over the years (go behind enemy lines and negotiate the surrender of Italy, involvment in establishing military civilian control over Italy during the Italian Campaign, Military Governor of Berlin while McCloy was High Commissioner of Germany after the War). Walker would be assigned to at least two very sensitive missions that were personally of interest to McCloy during World War II (Capture of a sophisticated radar system on the Island of Kiska during WWII and the transfter of the Holocast loot that was recovered from Merkers Mine near the end of the War.

All three of these men (McCloy, Taylor and Walker) would each be associated with John B. Hurt (a man that at a minimum shares a name with someone that Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to contact afer the assassination of JFK). Hurt, along with Frank Rowlett (who would be assigned by the CIA to investigate Lee Harvey Oswald's potential intelligence backround), was one the original members of William Friedman's Team of Cryptologists that lead directly to the creation of the National Security Agency. Hurt remained an employee of the NSA until just months before the assassination of JFK when he retired and took a year long vacation in France (where NSA employee Eugene B. Dinkin would pick up information that allowed him to predict the assassination of JFK before the event).

Just thoughts

Jim Root

Jim and everyone - very interesting thoughts on this topic -- it helps to put events into context.