FOREKNOWLEDGE AND JFK ASSASSINATION

Sun Tzu said: “Now the reason the enlightened Prince and the wise general conquer the enemy whenever they move and their achievements surpass those of ordinary men is foreknowledge.”

”What is called foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits nor from gods. Nor by analogy with past events, nor from calculations. It must be obtained from men who know the enemy situation.” – The Art of War – Chapter XII – Employment of Secret Agents.

One of the hallmarks and “fingerprints of intelligence” that makes the assassination of President Kennedy a covert intelligence operation is the foreknowledge certain people had of the event, and expressing it to others before it occurred.


- Bray – See: Bray v. Bendix trial transcripts re: JEFCOTT.

- Cambridge, England – Telephone call. See: Bowen, Howard.

- Cheramie, Rose – Jack Ruby associate. See: Louisiana State Police (HSCA)

- Cole, Elizabeth - North New Jersey women who overheard Cubans talking about assassination.

- Dinkin, Eugene B. – American soldier in Germany, claims to have picked up on the assassination plot from Army Security Agency monitor of OAS, the Algerian French Generals, went AOL and tried to inform American ambassador. See : Russell, Dick, TMWKTM.

- Ecchevara, Homer - Anti-Castro Cuban predicated threat "when we get rid of Kennedy."

- Erdinger, Anton - Rudolf Steiger reported that Anton Erdinger said, "If Oswald gets a hold of him he (JFK) is finished," sometime around the June 26, 1963 speech in Berlin, German. WCD 817

- Grace, William – “Shortly before the assassination an executive of the Grace Lines was found unconscious in the street. Taken to a hospital, he mumbled that the president was to be shot. He had an appointment with Army Intelligence agents before he was found.” – (Paris Flamonde, The Kennedy Conspiracy). Also : “An executive of the Grace Lines suffered a concussion after coming into contact with an Army Intelligence agent. While in a delirium he said, ‘The President is in danger!...”. [Also Note LHO wrote to mother/brother he “made reservations on a Grace liner.” ]

- Kirknewton - Scottish radio intercept station, where former vet Air Force Security Agency personal later wrote about intercepting information about the assassination before it occurred. See: Wim docs/ Larry Hancock.

- Martinez, Jorge Soto – On Nov. 1, Martinez told Lillian Springler at Parrot Jungle in Miami JFK to be "shot between the eyes" by “Lee, been to Russia, Mexico.” JSM lived in apartment above Mike McLaney’s garage, former Cuban Customs, worked at Fountainblu Hotel.

- Martino, John – To his wife, on the morning of the assassination (See: Summers, Vanity Fair, SWHT), also Larry Hancock’s “Someone Would Have Talked.”

- Milteer, Joseph - (RIP Feb. 28, 1974) Alias Samuel Steven Story. See: William Agusta Somerset – Agent 88 - undercover conversations. In NO, April 63.

- Nagel, Richard Case - See: Russell, Dick; The Man Who Knew Too Much.

- Odio, Syliva – See: Fonzi, Gaeton (HSCA; The Last Investigation)/ Russell, Dick (TMWKTM).

- Oxnard, California telephone call – See: Peter Noyes, Legacy of Doubt.

- Paine, Michael – Was talking about political assassination as JFK was being killed.

- Philbrick, Herbert – See: Jean Hill. Philbrick expressed foreknowledge of the assassination.

- Rivera, Jose, Dr. (Col. USAR) – See: Adele Edisen (ARRB). Rivera not only expressed foreknowledge of JFK’s assassination, but also of his son Patrick’s premature death and that LHO would move into the apartment on Magazine Street, New Orleans before LHO knew.

- Underhill, G. Garrett – See: Turner, William, Ramparts.


xxx

I find this a very interesting line of study, Bill, but, bluntly, every reference that doesn't have a date could be a listing from the 1978 Hong Kong telephone book and be every bit as useful for analysis in the Kennedy murder.

Ashton

Hi Ashton,

I have files on some of these, and others have written chapters in books on them.

I will fill in the reference links as I have time.

I think there are probably some more that I missed.

They must have something in common.

BK

To the Hong Kong directory list add: LBJ per M. Brown...as a maybe
and Nagel
I know there are others..will thunk on it....
...many who are suspected by some as being in the Plaza/seen in the Plaza, who came to watch the execution...
The common factor it seems to me is they knew some of the plotters or had overheard things related to the plotting by the plotters or their surrogates....they also had foreknowldege [the plotters]...duh...! and they sent [or their surrogates] people like Prouty to the S. Pole, had the ID info on LHO ready; article on LHO ready for release in Australia and this will be a long list......and subject to debate as to exactly who should be included or not....but there are many that are no contest.

I'm sure they do have something in common somewhere and are quite important. As you and others can supply dates and any more information about each incident I'll pass it along to the people I know who are doing timelines (though I think some are lurking here now from time to time and picking up more info while also collecting data from other sources).

I think you have hold of one of the hot strings that when correlated with other information in sequence is going to peel away more layers of the fraud.

Ashton

Bill, great list, and no doubt, more names could be added. Just one nit-pick. Dinkins didn't didn't over-hear anything about a plot from monitoring of OAS, and strictly speaking, he had no foreknowledge at all. He's in a category all on his own, having correctly determined the bones of the plot by noticing psychological sets (patterns aimed at altering mass perceptions) in Stars and Strips and other newspapers. IOW, he developed a theory, using knowledge of psychology and mass media, and that theory was later proved correct.

I hear you on Eugene Dinken, Greg.

That is a very confusing case, but I think he's one of the few who have survived.

Also adding, Richard Case Nagel and Anton Erdinger to the list.

Bk

How about Karyn Kupcinet and the phone call....?


http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKkupcinet.htm

It would be a good idea to put all of them into a final list, with dates and references and with some general indication of level of certainty commonly assigned [thinking here of the contentious claim of Lorenz and Fiorini driving to Dallas, for example].

THE ONXNARD, CALIFORNIA PHONE CALL IS OFTEN ATTRIBUTED TO KARYN KUPCIENT.

BK

Bill,



Telephone Call overheard by Elizabeth Cole in New Jersey.
FBI Admin Folder N6 multiple pages.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;docId=10032

Steve Thomas

Hi Bill, as you know these pre-assassination leaks are a significant part of my
work and I will be going into more detail on some of them plus adding a couple
in the second edition.

On Dinkin, I'm pretty sure that newspaper thing is a story line that he was forced
into after his hospitalization and "recoverery".....another one of those instances
of just agreeing to something that sounds nuts to be let back on the street.

The hard part about Dinkin is that many folks have written about him but
without providing hard core documentation on his military service. If we had
some solid source on exactly where he was stationed, what unit and what
his job description was we might be able to get somewhere....

My wild guess is that Dinkin may have picked up the same intercept that
we are tracking in the Kirknewton situation....but that's pure speculation
until we know for sure what his day job was in the fall of 1963.

-- Larry

Gary Wean claimed:

Hi Steve.

I sourced all the documents, including those on Senator Raymond Baker. I also located Elisabeth and had many exchanges with her. The bottomline was that the incident in question appeared to have taken place the week of November the 8th. As per Cole, she reported the incident soon afterwards, at her Mother's insistence, to the FBI, by way of a phone call. She provided the specifics, along with her contact info, as well as the contact info for her Parents. It was later researched more thoroughly by the FBI when Baker raised the issue again in the 70s. No other record appears to exist which would validate her original reporting of the incident in November, prior to the assassination.

1. Cole does not recall the name of the student, nor what he looked like. She thinks that his last name might begin with a 'G.' Everything else is as per the documents - save for some additional info I learned from her - for example her name tag showed that she represented France - in which case, the Cuban student could indeed have assumed that she would not understand his conversation, leaving him free to continue speaking, while Cole waited for the payphone to be free so that she could phone home. Furthmore, as per Cole, at that time she was more fluent in Spanish and French than in English - having been educated abroad exclusively. English would have been the most difficult language for her to speak or understand at that time of the three.

2. Baker does not mention how he learned of Cole and her account. On October 29, 1974, Baker does write about his meeting with Mrs. Cole [around the month of August of 1974] to an associate - Phil T. White, Justice Department, Criminal Division. As per the FBI, Baker has been in contact with the DOJ since 1959. The letter begins with the demonstration that Baker has had past dealings with White. Perhaps this is his original source for the information - sheer speculation. Mr. Baker's interest in the case appears to stem from investigations he was prompting RFK to authorize into the shady loans being made by a number of insurance companies to folks like Marcello, Giancana and Rosselli, to name a few. Baker was convinced that his son was killed as a victim of foul play - directly related to his refusal to accept blackmail, and his forcing the investigation to move forward. He was convinced that JFK was assassinated as the result of a conspiracy.

3. Baker states that Mrs. Cole informed him that a Cuban with the same last name as the student [overhead by Elisabeth at Rutgers] was arrested 11/22 in Dallas, but released - no idea how Mrs. Cole could know something that no one else seems to know. Elisabeth had nothing to add here either - her Mother had some bizarre acquaintances but was first and foremost a recluse. Aside from the mystery Garrison photo, there doesn't appear to be any record of a Cuban having been arrested and released that day - at least, nothing I could find. Danny Arce was placed in 'protective custody,' not arrest. Further, he wasn't a student in November. I don't know if he was Cuban. His last name begins with an 'A.' Garrison's photo implies that someone yelling in Spanish at the motorcade was arrested and released, but that's about as far as the story goes - unless someone can fill in the blanks.

- lee

Hmmm - doesn't seem to allow me to edit.

One more point on the Cole account worth mentioning. In his letter to Mr. White of the DOJ on 10/29/74, Baker states that he had been searching for Elisabeth Cole for 'several years' as he believed that her incident with the Cuban student had merit, and was worth following up on. He finally located Mrs. Cole in around the August timeframe and met with her at her residence in NY. It is unclear if Elisabeth was part of that meeting. It is a mystery to me how he could have learned about her to begin with - since there are no records of any kind that I was able to find, prior to Baker's involvement. Elisabeth couldn't help me there either. If this information was not provided to Baker by a contact within the DOJ, I have no clue as to where he might have come by it.

- lee

Peter,

Does that mean you are volunteering to actually do that?

BK

Hi Larry,

I just reviewed the Kirknewton docs that Wim provided and your analysis and agree that the radio intercept base at Kirknewton, Scotland would jive with what Dinkin was doing. Dinkin was Army Security Agency and Kirknewton vets are Air Force, I believe.

Were any Kirknewton docs released by the Air Force Inteligence Agency under ARRB?

Will add Elizeabeth Cole and Kirknewton to the list.

BK

Lee, The only Cuban I can think of is Ernest Romagosa. Det Westphal was on assignment at the Trade Mart Building awaiting the arrival of the president. Shortly after assuming his post, he noticed a man
loitering with a Cuban flag.

Under questioning, the man stated he was Anti-Castro, and a veteran of the Bay of Pigs, and that his purpose was not to harrass Kennedy, but merely to get his attention and acknowledgemnt. He gave his name as Ernest Romagosa, and his employer as Bob Burton at the Trade Mart building.

I cannot find his name listed among BoP personnel, so he was either using a false name in Dallas or was using a war name during the invasion. He was not arrested, but was later the subject of a CI report.

Ernest Romagosa

Bob Burton was a purveyor of balloons. Anyone got a pin?

Under questioning, the man stated he was Anti-Castro, and a veteran of the Bay of Pigs, and that his purpose was not to harrass Kennedy, but merely to get his attention and acknowledgemnt. He gave his name as Ernest Romagosa, and his employer as Bob Burton at the Trade Mart building. (Greg Parker)

Greg,

I think the Ernest Romagosa in question was Ernest Romagosa Jr. His father was a doctor who died in 1966. They were related somehow to Edward Romagosa who was a Reverend.

Information is very sketchy here but there is nothing to indicate Junior was a BOP veteran.

James

[quote name='William Kelly' date='Aug 13 2006, 06:47 PM' post='72081']
FOREKNOWLEDGE AND JFK ASSASSINATION

- Cambridge, England – Telephone call. See: Bowen, Howard.

.
From the Cambridge evening news, March 1981. All our yesterdays feature.

Mystery call before Kennedy's killing

"As John F Kennedy was chauffeured into downtown Dallas, a telephone call was made to the Cambridge evening news .The anonymous caller gave a reporter the cryptic message, "call the American embassy in London for some big news." and rang off, 25 minutes before the worlds most powerful man was shot. At least thats what happened accordig to the text of a telegram attributed to the CIA, one of 25,000items now released under America's freedom of information act. But nobody currently working at the News remembers it."

James, Edward was a Jesuit and an expert in Enneagram (a system dividing people into any of 9 personality types). Didn't twig to a possible relationship between them. Came upon Edward looking into various new age/pop psychology areas of interest to CIA.

Larry, I take it you don't trust what the FBI and CIA reports say in relation to his military service, or how he came to have his (fore)knowledge?

According to these reports anyway, he was stationed in Germany with the 599th Ordinance Group (code section) before being transferred to Headquarters Company, US Army General Depot on Oct 25.

I actually do believe the official story, but acknowledge that may just be me being naive. One way to test it would be to try and replicate it. According to the story, he noticed these psychological sets in Sept and Oct editions of Stars and Stripes as well as in various Hearse newspapers. His conclusion was that the sets were designed to show ( a ) JFK was a commie symp, ( b ) that he deserved to die as a result of ( a ), and ( c ) that communists or leftist radicals would be blamed. He further concluded that it was a military operation, possibly aided by an "ultra-right economic group".

If a psychologist could be found to review the Stars and Strips and Hearst papers for Sept/Oct, 1963 and then asked to give an opinion on any patterns detected, and what those patterns might indicate, I think we would be a lot closer to knowing "whodunit", if conclusions approximate those of Dinkin.

Bill, all the documents are still un-released. All we can see comes
from cover sheets that allow us to track the action that the HSCA
took to investigate it. The HSCA's own internal memoranda as well
as the USAF investigation documents are still classified and unreleased -
as are almost all other NSA related JFK documents.

Do you have a solid source for that info on Jenkins, I've come across it
in books before but never with an actual source that proved he was
working in a job where he would have been doing intercepts or handling
similar traffic?

-- Larry

Lee,



Wasn't there a report somewhere about a man being picked up in Dealey Plaza, but then released because he didn't speak English?

Steve Thomas

Hi Steve - if there is I have not seen it. All I have seen revolves around the story of the event - as it was relayed by Garrison to Roger Craig, etc. Craig thought that the individual in the photo [where Garrison got it I have no idea, but it appears to have been in his files] was the driver of the Rambler - if this individual was arrested, then he would have to have been mistaken. Sorry for the poor quality - can't find the other version I had - I tried enhancing this one to get a better look at the guy.

This isn't really relevant to the thread here - however, if there was a report of a Cuban having been arrested and released [other than the DalTex - that sounds as if the individual was only threatened with arrest] I would be very interested in learning the individual's name. It still begs the questions raised earlier, in terms of how Elisabeth's Mother would have learned that a Cuban was arrested in DP and released. I tried the NY Times archives, since she lived in Manhattan at that time - but found nothing.

- lee

Lee,



I just read that Jim Marrs' book, Crossfire is supposed to have a list of the people arrested and/or detained for questioning that day.

Steve Thomas

- Bray – See: Bray v. Bendix trial transcripts re: JEFCOTT.

- Cambridge, England – Telephone call. See: Bowen, Howard.

- Cheramie, Rose – Jack Ruby associate. See: Louisiana State Police (HSCA)

- Cole, Elizabeth - North New Jersey women who overheard Cubans talking about assassination.

- Dinkin, Eugene B. – American soldier in Germany, claims to have picked up on the assassination plot from Army Security Agency monitor of OAS, the Algerian French Generals, went AOL and tried to inform American ambassador. See : Russell, Dick, TMWKTM.

- Erdinger, Anton - Rudolf Steiger reported that Anton Erdinger said, "If Oswald gets a hold of him he (JFK) is finished," sometime around the June 26, 1963 speech in Berlin, German. WCD 817

- Grace, William – “Shortly before the assassination an executive of the Grace Lines was found unconscious in the street. Taken to a hospital, he mumbled that the president was to be shot. He had an appointment with Army Intelligence agents before he was found.” – (Paris Flamonde, The Kennedy Conspiracy). Also : “An executive of the Grace Lines suffered a concussion after coming into contact with an Army Intelligence agent. While in a delirium he said, ‘The President is in danger!...”. [Also Note LHO wrote to mother/brother he “made reservations on a Grace liner.” ]

- Kirknewton - Scottish radio intercept station, where former vet Air Force Security Agency personal later wrote about intercepting information about the assassination before it occurred. See: Wim docs/ Larry Hancock.

- Martinez, Jorge Soto – On Nov. 1, Martinez told Lillian Springler at Parrot Jungle in Miami JFK to be "shot between the eyes" by “Lee, been to Russia, Mexico.” JSM lived in apartment above Mike McLaney’s garage, former Cuban Customs, worked at Fountainblu Hotel.

- Martino, John – To his wife, on the morning of the assassination (See: Summers, Vanity Fair, SWHT), also Larry Hancock’s “Someone Would Have Talked.”

- Milteer, Joseph - (RIP Feb. 28, 1974) Alias Samuel Steven Story. See: William Agusta Somerset – Agent 88 - undercover conversations. In NO, April 63.

- Nagel, Richard Case - See: Russell, Dick; The Man Who Knew Too Much.

- Odio, Syliva – See: Fonzi, Gaeton (HSCA; The Last Investigation)/ Russell, Dick (TMWKTM).

- Oxnard, California telephone call – See: Peter Noyes, Legacy of Doubt.

- Paine, Michael – Was talking about political assassination as JFK was being killed.

- Philbrick, Herbert – See: Jean Hill. Philbrick expressed foreknowledge of the assassination.

- Rivera, Jose, Dr. (Col. USAR) – See: Adele Edisen (ARRB). Rivera not only expressed foreknowledge of JFK’s assassination, but also of his son Patrick’s premature death and that LHO would move into the apartment on Magazine Street, New Orleans before LHO knew.

- Underhill, G. Garrett – See: Turner, William, Ramparts.


xxx
[/quote]

Bill - have you included the piece about the Railway men? I am drawing a blank on names. There is an account someplace which concerns a conversation in which it is stated as a matter of fact that Kennedy is going to be eliminated. Does that ring a bell for anyone?

http://ourworld-top.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id162.htm





- lee

Bill - have you included the piece about the Railway men? I am drawing a blank on names. There is an account someplace which concerns a conversation in which it is stated as a matter of fact that Kennedy is going to be eliminated. Does that ring a bell for anyone?

LEE, THE RAILWAY MEN DOESN'T RING A BELL WITH ME.

I LIKE THE HSECHEVARRIA ONE, AND WILL ADD THAT TO THE LIST.

BK

http://ourworld-top.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id162.htm

[quote]* The FBI failed to properly investigate an informant report that an anti-Castro activist named Homer S. Echevarria appeared to have advance knowledge of a plot to kill Kennedy. Just one day before the assassination, during a discussion about a shipment of illegal weapons for anti-Castro activities, Echevarria told the informant that his anti-Castro group had plenty of money and that they would proceed "as soon as we take care of Kennedy." The Secret Service tried to investigate the matter, but the FBI made it clear it wanted the investigation halted, and, incredibly, the FBI itself did not pursue the issue further. The HSCA noted that Echevarria was associated with Juan Francisco Blanco-Fernandez, military director of the anti-Castro group DRE, and that the arms deal was being financed through one Paulino Sierra Martinez by hoodlum elements in Chicago and elsewhere. The committee also found that Echevarria may have been a member of the 30th of November anti-Castro organization, adding,

The 30th of November group was backed financially by the Junta del Gobierno de Cuba en el Exilio (JGCE), a Chicago-based organization run by Paulino Sierra Martinez. JGCE was a coalition of many of the more active anti-Castro groups that had been rounded in April 1963; it was dissolved soon after the assassination. Its purpose was to back the activities of the more militant groups, including Alpha 66 and the Student Directorate, or DRE, both of which had reportedly been in contact with Lee Harvey Oswald. Much of JGCE's financial support, moreover, allegedly came from individuals connected to organized crime. (HSCA Report, p. 134)[/quote]



- lee
[/quote]

Can't find the bit on the railway incident - perhaps Larry knows. I believe I sent him an email about it once - can't find the reference now. Does Madeline Brown qualify on the basis of the LBJ story?

I will add Jose Aleman's report of Santo Traficante's threat, but I don't think it is foreknowledge as much as it is a threat.

As for the Oxnard call, here's one report from Peter Noyes' Legacy of Doubt (P. 232-3)

"The Senator explained that something had occurred in Southern California tht had bothered him a great deal; something that should have been investigated by the Warren Commission, but wasn't. When pressed for specifics, the Senator replied that he was particulary bothered by the contents of an Associated Press story from Oxnard, California, on November 23rd, 1963 - the day afer his brother's assassination.

Here is that story:

Oxnard, California (AP) - A telephone company executive said that 20 minutes before President Kennedy was assassinated a women caller was overheard whispering:

"The President is going to be killed."

Ray Sheehan, manager of the Oxnard division of General Telephone Company, said the caller "stumbled into our operator's circuits," perhaps by misdialing.

Sheehan siad the women "seemed to be a little bit disturbed." Besides predicting the President's death, he said, she "mumbled several incoherent things."

Sheehan said teh call was reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation in Los Angeles but not until after the President had been shot. Until then, he said, it appeared to have been just a crank call.

Sheehan said there was no way to trace the call. All he could say was that it originated in the Oxnard-Camarillo area some 50 miles north of Los Angeles.

The FBI in Los Angeles declined to coment.

Sheehan said one telephone supervisor called another one onto her line after getting the call. He said both supervisors heard the women say the President would be killed.

Sheehan said the call was received at 10:10 A.M., Pacific Time. The President was shot in Dallas shortly after 10:30 A.M.

Sheehan siad he didn't think the caller was ever connected with another party. He said she may not have known she had supervisores on the line and may have just been talking to no one in particular.

"Robert Kennedy felt that unless the women caller heard by the telephone supervisors was clairvoyant, there was sufficient reason to suspect she might have knowledge of the assassination plot. It bothered him to no end."

An interesting story. Did the FBI ever follow-up on this? Though I guess even it they wanted to [sic] they likely couldn't have done much as she was untraceable. What 'suspected' persons involved lived in that area?

[quote name='Lee Forman' date='Aug 15 2006, 09:52 PM' post='72271']
Does Madeline Brown qualify on the basis of the LBJ story?

As tempting as it is to believe Ms. Brown having LBJ make a threat against the Kennedys- (prediction of death)- no one has ever been able to fully substantiate that there actully was such a party at the home of Clint Murchinson. As to LBJ attending said party while also being miles from there , I wondered if his look- alike cousin could have been a stand-in at the second function (in, I believe Ft Worth?).

Dawn

"Robert Kennedy felt that unless the women caller heard by the telephone supervisors was clairvoyant, there was sufficient reason to suspect she might have knowledge of the assassination plot. It bothered him to no end."
[/quote]

An interesting story. Did the FBI ever follow-up on this? Though I guess even it they wanted to [sic] they likely couldn't have done much as she was untraceable. What 'suspected' persons involved lived in that area?
[/quote]


Peter,

Some people suspect that the murder of Karen Kupcent had something to do with the Oxnard call.

Karen's father was from the same Chicago neighborhood as Jack Ruby and Ruby claimed to know him.

BK

Bill,
I don't know if you already have the Adele Edisen case (and Jose Rivera) of foreknowledge. I believe Adele Edisen is a member of the Forum as well.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKedisen.htm

Indeed, Antti, I have mentioned Adele Edisen case and Dr./Col. Jose Rivera ( USAR), and that he expressed not only foreknowledge of the assassination in Dallas, Oswald's role, and Ruby, but that he gave AE Oswald's Magazine Street phone number two weeks before Oswald himself knew he would be living there. Now that's spooky.

BK

Good choice of word there.

Perhap's this isn't the ideal thread to post this, but it is at least, intertwined with it. I do not have this or I would post it .
Body of Secrets: James Bamford pages 131-135 concern the NSA in relation to the Assassination of JFK, that section of the book, has extremely pertinent information regarding NSA intercepts of various nations including information about Oswald possessing a short wave radio, and interest over the microdots passage in LHO's notebook.

In the course of perusing Mary Ferrell's Chronologies, I'm finding a lot of little nuggets that I didn't know before. Among them is further details of the Oxnard, California telephone conversation picked up by two operators, who heard a middle aged women warn that "The president will be shot at 10:30" - (12:30 CST).

This reference is from MFC p. 11 ( of 307), pagelink 485042. November 22, 1963.

According to this report, at 12:07 pm - 12:08 (CST; 10:10-PST) the women says "The President is going to die at 10:10."

What I didn't know is the extent of what she said. In addition, there is the remark:

"The Justice, the Supreme Court, there's going to be fire in all the windows; the government is going up in flames."

As she was connected to a party line, and not connected to anyone in particular, one of the operators interupted her, and she said to get off as she was using the line.

She then said, "The president is going to die at 10:30," which is what happened.

She mentioned the courts again and,

"The government takes over everything, lock stock and barrell."

The entire phone call lasted from ten to fifteen minutes.

Mary's citation is CD1107:82.83.

I was wondering if the court references give a clue as to her identiy, and whether there are any more notes or quotes as to what else was said.

Does anyone have any more on this? Other than RFK being interested in it.

BK

This is a myth that needs to be laid to rest. In fact Prouty did exactly that in his ARRB interview, even though he was the one who started the myth. He tried to blame others for suspecting something sinister about the trip, even though he himself he had done so. Just another example of how any Prouty utterance about anything related to JFK needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

To begin with, there was no reason for the plotters to send Prouty anywhere, since despite anything and everything stated in his book or other writings to the contrary, he had nothing to do with protective services for JFK. He told the ARRB that the only connection he ever had with presidential security was in 1955, when he flew a plane for security personnel to Mexico City. Why would he suddenly be needed 8 years later regarding a trip by JFK to Dallas?

On the South Pole business, Prouty wrote in his book JFK (p. 284), "I have always wondered . . . whether that strange invitation that removed me so far from Washington and from the center of all things clandestine that I knew so well might have been connected to the events that followed." That, as far as I know, is the origin of the notion that there was something sinister about Prouty being sent to Antarctica. Yet when the ARRB asked him if he thought there was anything "sinister" about him being sent there (he escorted a group of scientists), Prouty stated, "Oh, no. I'd been working with them since 1959. It was so routine for them to call me, I didn't give it a second thought . . . it's the military custom to put an escort officer on board." Then he attributed the notion there might have been anything sinister to the ignorance of other people: "And even afterwards, when I heard people extrapolating in that sense - thinking that it wasn't my job - they didn't know I'd already been working with Antarctica people since 1959."

For those who want to read the reports on the Oxnard call, here is CD 1107, p.82:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=107

And here is a Los Angeles FBI report on the Oxnard call. It notes that the Secret Service was notified - I don't know if any Secret Service records exist on this:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=183

Bill mentioned that he was reading through the Mary Ferrell Chronologies, which I recently posted on the MFF site. They are quite detailed and useful:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...o?docSetId=1111

Rex

Thanks Rex,

I got some additional cases of foreknowledge of the assassination that I wanted to add to this list.

BK

Foreknowledge:
What about Lee Oswald, and Vary Baker...according to her story? And Mr. Plumlee? And the guys he put into Dallas by plane the day of the assassination?
what about Sturgis, Pedro Dias Lanz, the Novis brothers, Orlando Bosch and Marita Lorenz?
I guess 300 to 400 people got some kind of "foreknowledge", hearsay etc. . But only a handful of them, got the hole picture...

Karyn Kupcinet had no foreknowledge of the Kennedy Assassination. But she died because of the Assassination and Jack Ruby killing Oswald. There was a lot of heat about the Chicago Mob being behind the Assassination. When Ruby shot Oswald, Irv Kupcinet, the columnist and talk show host, sought out Paul Dorfman, who knew Ruby. He got a call put through to him at Palm Springs where Dorfman was "vacationing." Also in Palm Springs that weekend was Karyn Kupcinet, whom Chicagoans knew well. It is my theory that Dorfman was trying to think of something that would shock the populace of Chicago and make them forget about Ruby and the Chicago Mob for awhile. With Irv on the phone and Karyn being spotted (possibly), it might have dawned on Dorfman that were she murdered in Hollywood, Chicago would be shocked and for a time their attention would swayed to the murder, which has never been solved.

Kathy C