What do people think of this CIA memo? Quite interesting reading I think concerning Mexico City.
I've never heard of Mr Montrell H. Mills.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=3

Francesca,

That is interesting.

The mention of J. Walton Moore in paragraph 3 is also curious as if my memory serves me correctly, he was a candidate for the mysterious Maurice Bishop.

Cheers,

James

It says he was in charge of performing background checks -- this is the same job held by James Powell, the intelligence op from the 112th caught in the TSBD after the shooting.

Well, he had a long drive to get to work from where he was "domiciled." But it looks like the case was closed: "Based on the limited information supplied in referenced memorandum, additional research into this matter through Office of Security records is not possible." So I guess that's where they left it....

Dan

Heh.

Hiya, Dan. Yeah, I guess that's where they left it. Guess that's where we all oughta' leave it, too, huh? "Case closed."

Heh.

But, you know me: I just never can seem to leave well enough alone. I need to chew things over a bit and cogitate on them, get all the juice out of 'em. So, if you would be so kind, indulge me while I do a little "CIA Issuance Parsing 101." Follow along in your hymnal for a moment, and let's you and me review exactly was said in the document at issue—with just a smidge of Ashton-induced emphasis added—and let's formulate a little "CIA Ooze Comprehension Quiz":

PART ONE

"A review of Mr. Moore's Office of Security file confirmed his assignment to Dallas but did not disclose any evidence of his having traveled to Mexico for any purpose during his assignment in Texas."

Hmmm. Now, let me pull me grey beard here and ponder what was said. If anything. Here's your quiz on PART ONE:

1. Was Mr. Moore's "Office of Security" file complete at the time of review by the author of the document? (Please answer yes or no.)

2. Is there any reason to expect that Mr. Moore's "Office of Security" file would contain "any evidence" of a CIA black operation into Mexico? (Please answer yes or no.)

3. Is "Mr. Moore's Office of Security file" the only place in the entirety of CIA where any record might be of felonious money laundering or international crimes that may, or may not, have been engaged in by Mr. Moore on behalf of the CIA, whether in Mexico or elsewhere? (Please answer yes or no. Or, you may reach down and slap the lower right hand drawer of your desk in pantomime, a la Magruder with Liddy, if you feel so compelled.)

4. Might Mr. Moore have "acted as a courier to bring money or checks into Mexico" at some time other than "during his asssignment in Texas"—say, perhaps, arguendo, "during his assignment to bring money or checks into Mexico"? (Please answer yes or no—or just shrug.)

Moving along...

PART TWO

"Based on the limited information supplied in referenced memorandum, additional research into this matter through Office of Security records is not possible."

Ahhhh, yes. Yes. There you have it. With a ring of great authority. So there's just one question to the quiz on PART TWO for you, Dan:

1. So, is the "case closed," Danny, me boy? (Please answer yes or no.)

Good to see you, Dan.

Ashton

A bio brief on J. Walton Moore.

It seems he was in Tsingtao China in 1948; the same time Robert Emmett Johnson was there. Now that is most interesting indeed.

James

This document is kind of curious.

James

James, I believe this document is a reference to Edward J. Epstein and Reader's Digest, who were investigating DeMohrenschildt's ties to Moore when DeMohrenschildt killed himself in late March 77.

"Ash" or Keller or whoever,
Are you baiting me, mein Herr? If you weren't such a God-awful goober ate up with yourself and your own "truths," you'd be able to recognize that my comments were not intended to mean "case closed"; they were an ironic comment on the typical procedure that was followed in this instance as in so many others. Among the few things I've found of interest in this section of the forum lately are the investigations into Oswald's possible "sighting" in Montreal and Francesca's post here. Any LA-Dallas connections strike me as potentially under-investigated, not least because of the later peripatetic style of James Earl Ray (Montreal, Mexico, LA, Memphis, etc, etc). So, sorry, I'm not obligated to take your bait or your quiz --- as if you're the great holder of the truth, He who dictates what all the lesser people should think or know. It's never good to see you. But please write me a PM rather than respond here and derail this thread.

I just thought of something else. The memo mentions that Mr Montrell Mills was assigned to the LA field office of the Office of Security in 1963. Didn't Richard Nagell work in LA at some point before the assassination? I can't remember what exactly he did there or when it was as I don't have the book to hand but it's just something that occurred to me as an interesting point.

The controversy over J Walton Moore and the tie-in to George DeMohrenschildt was a very big news item in Dallas, Texas when the story "broke" in the local media. One of the 'investigative journalist's' covering the story was none other than Bill O'Reilly [my how the political weather can change] it was a very unfortunate event as far as the CIA was concerned, but the storm was weathered so to speak.
One item that bears mentioning is the use of pseudonym's, is it possible that the name Montrell Mills was a pseudonym ala John Scelso, I doubt it personally, but the name does not pop-up on the radar screen, which indicates to me that it is an avenue that should be looked at all the more closely

NOTE: There is also another document that pulls up on NARA re Montrell Mills, see below


AGENCY : CIA
RECORD NUMBER : 104-10248-10060
RECORDS SERIES : JFK
AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 80T01357A

ORIGINATOR : CIA
FROM : MILLS, MONTRELL
TO : [No To]
TITLE : OOC REPORT OF INVESTIGATION
DATE : 09/06/1960
PAGES : 1
DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
SUBJECTS : REPORT; V.J.C.
CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED
RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL
CURRENT STATUS : OPEN
DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 03/14/1998
COMMENTS : JFK40 : F28 : 1998.03.14.11:44:08:936109 :

See
http://www.nara.gov/cgi-bin/starfinder/3961/jfksnew.txt

Thanks for the info Robert. I managed to find that document on the M Ferell site but doesn't really say much. Appears to be some kind of record sheet:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/....do?docId=14811

The controversy over J Walton Moore and the tie-in to George DeMohrenschildt was a very big news item in Dallas, Texas when the story "broke" in the local media. One of the 'investigative journalist's' covering the story was none other than Bill O'Reilly [my how the political weather can change] it was a very unfortunate event as far as the CIA was concerned, but the storm was weathered so to speak.
One item that bears mentioning is the use of pseudonym's, is it possible that the name Montrell Mills was a pseudonym ala John Scelso, I doubt it personally, but the name does not pop-up on the radar screen, which indicates to me that it is an avenue that should be looked at all the more closely

NOTE: There is also another document that pulls up on NARA re Montrell Mills, see below


AGENCY : CIA
RECORD NUMBER : 104-10248-10060
RECORDS SERIES : JFK
AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 80T01357A

ORIGINATOR : CIA
FROM : MILLS, MONTRELL
TO : [No To]
TITLE : OOC REPORT OF INVESTIGATION
DATE : 09/06/1960
PAGES : 1
DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER - TEXTUAL DOCUMENT
SUBJECTS : REPORT; V.J.C.
CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED
RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL
CURRENT STATUS : OPEN
DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 03/14/1998
COMMENTS : JFK40 : F28 : 1998.03.14.11:44:08:936109 :

See
http://www.nara.gov/cgi-bin/starfinder/3961/jfksnew.txt

The HSCA had this to say about De Mohrenschildt and Moore
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol12_0029b.htm

In Harvey & Lee, John Armstrong wrote:

Moore was a former FBI agent and college roomate of FBI agent Wallace Heitman. According to Moore's CIA personnel file he was assigned to the CIA's Domestic Contacts Division in 1948 and was in Dallas in 1963 at the same position. Moore's boss at CIA headquarters was Tracy Barnes of the Domestic Operations Division. One of his duties in the Dallas office was to contact individuals who had information of foreign topics of interest. In a memorandum dated May 1, 1964 Moore stated that he had known George De Mohrenschildt and his wife since 1957. In an interview with the HSCA on March 14, 1978 Moore said that he had interviewed De Mohrenschildt in 1957 after the Yugoslavia trip. Moore also said he had "periodic" contact with De Mohrenschildt and saw him several times in 1958 and 1959. De Mohrenschildt's CIA file contained several reports submitted by him on topics concerning Yugoslavia. In short, De Mohrenschildt worked for the CIA and J. Walton Moore was his superior. (Armstrong's emphasis)

and:

NOTE: On April 13, 1977 Moore wrote a memo (later found in De Mohrenschildt's CIA file), in which he set forth facts to counter a claim that was recently made by WFAA-TV in Dallas. WFAA claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald was employed by the CIA and that Moore knew Oswald....

Good stuff

Armstrong's book looks pretty strong here.
It is interesting that Tracy Barnes is mentioned as CIA chief of domestic operations.
I have read where E Howard HUNT was chief of domestic CIA operations but kept
his office down in MEXICO CITY which is actually the CIA base which had texas in its orbit
(since the CIA couldn't legally operate domestically)

Anyway the letter about the photograph of the Dallas CIA checker who knew DEMORENSCHILDT

is creepy, and J. Walton Moore probably knew a great deal about the operational and cover up

aspects of the Dallas November action on the president.......

Shanet, Barnes was Hunt's boss at the DOD, the Domestic Operations Division. Hunt was reportedly the Chief of covert operations of the DOD, not the DOD itself. There will be a lot on Barnes and Hunt in Larry Hancock's book.

Thanks for the info everyone. I found this memo which prints the transcript of the tv news programme where it was said Moore knew Oswald:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1

What caught my attention was the last paragraph of the memo on page 5:
"On the 12th April 1977, our adminstrative assistant Mrs Barham received a phone call from an individual asking to speak with Morris Bishop. She advised that there was no one by that name working in the office."

Why, yes: it is. And below are a few more Curious Coincidences in The Life and Times of J. Walton Moore (garnished, for better or worse, with a generous topping of other nuts and fruits):

30 c. December 1941
As a result of his purported injuries received in a fall from a ladder aboard the destroyer Mayo in the North Atlantic, E. Howard Hunt is deemed not fit for full duty, and is offered the option of shore duty as a supply officer, or an honorable medical discharge. Hunt chooses the discharge. [NOTE: No date at all is given for this, except it is after his purported convalescence, so is estimated as late December 1941. Note also that Weberman says Hunt was given "an honorable medical discharge in late 1942," but the 1942 date almost has to be a typo, or is just plain wrong. Also, Weberman says that Hunt's discharge was for "a hearing problem," not as the result of any injuries aboard a ship. The most likely interpretation is that Hunt's "discharge" was largely cosmetic to facilitate undercover operations, and that the record has been sheep-dipped.]

1 c. January 1942
Although James Walton Moore's employment is listed as being "FBI Washington DC" from January 1942 to January 1945, his residence is listed in the referenced document as being "San Francisco, Calif." from 1942 to 1945. [NOTE: This seems to indicate that Moore is with the San Francisco FBI office during these dates. See 6 January 1945, when he enters the U.S. Navy. Moore's relocation from D.C. to San Francisco seems to be very close in time to E. Howard Hunt's "discharge" from the Navy.]

1 c. February c. 1943
E. Howard Hunt ostensibly has become a "war correspondent" for Life magazine (part of Time, Inc.). He flies to San Francisco, reportedly en route to the Pacific, and meets there with Tony Jackson. [NOTE: James Walton Moore is also based in San Francisco.]

Skipping for now Hunt's entirely undistinguished "war correspondent" career—of which not a word ever managed to make publication—let's travel up memory lane toward the present to a strange confluence of events at the beginning of 1945:

1 c. January 1945
Estimated from the cited narrative, it is around this time that E. Howard Hunt leaves Washinigton, D.C. traveling to Calcutta, India, ostensibly en route to Kunming, China and OSS Detachment 202. While in Calcutta, Hunt purportedly discovers "lists of OSS agents in Burma, India, and China" that have been taken without authorization by a civilian Indian "Morale Operations (psychological warfare) expert." Hunt reportedly turns the contraband lists over to "OSS headquarters downtown" in Calcutta.

6 January 1945
James Walton Moore, employed by the FBI since April 1940, begins service in the U.S. Navy on 6 January 1945. At an unspecified date in 1945 (presumed here to be linked to his service in the Navy pending other data), his residence is listed in the referenced document as changing from San Francisco, California to "North China," with no indication of where in North China.

1 c. February 1945
Estimated from the cited narrative, it is around this time that E. Howard Hunt flies from Calcutta, India to Kunming, China, where he is met by Ed Welch (who Hunt had done OSS training with), and joins OSS Detachment 202. The commanding officer of 202 is Colonel Richard Heppner, a Princeton alumnus who was also a peacetime member of William Donovan's New York law firm. Another member of Donovan's law firm heading an OSS field team is Captain Walter Mansfield. Administratively, OSS/China is divided into Secret Intelligence (collection), Special Operations (sabotage), Morale Operations (psychological warfare), and the Operational Groups (commando units). OSS has a liaison office with the Nationalist Army of China in Chungking, and maintains "forward bases" in Chengtu, Hsian, and Chinkiang (also called Jiangsu, and which Hunt spells Chihkiang). Field OSS teams are supplied with gum opium and gold bars or U.S.-minted gold louis d'or coins as mediums of exchange with the locals.

1 c. March 1945
About a month after E. Howard Hunt's arrival at OSS Detachment 202 base at Kunming, the group he had trained with on Catalina Island arrives, including Lucien Conein. Also connected with OSS Detachment 202 are Paul Helliwell, Louis Hector, and Paul Child. Colonel Ray Peers is commanding officer of Detachment 101 in Burma.

1 c. June 1945
E. Howard Hunt goes on several OSS missions spanning an uncertain amount of time, but around early summer 1945. He goes to Hsian, then on to Chengtu, where the base commander is Major David Longacre, then returns to Hsian where he joins a team headed by Captain Bob Rodenburg and travels to undisclosed locations in "North China." He is on this trip for about a month to six weeks. [NOTE: James Walton Moore is based somewhere in "North China."]

A downright confusing parallel track to the above concerns the movements and whereabouts of Dorothy Wetzel (who will become Dorothy Hunt) during some of the overlapping time periods. Its confusion arises (as is most often the case) from the inability to get confirmation on certain dates, but what can be said with certainty is that for some period of time she was based in Bern, Switzerland at the same time that Allen Dulles and Mary Bancroft were based in Bern as lovebirds. Dorothy Wetzel was there working in the Treasury Department's Hidden Assets Division, locating Germany's— Well, hidden assets.

I found this particularly interesting because this also parallels the time period when Walt Rostow is with the "oily boys," including Charles P. Cabell, directing bombing runs on German oil assets, to the material benefit of certain American and British oil interests. Isn't all that peculiar.

And while John Simkin's bio page on Dorothy Wetzel/Hunt says the met her future husband in Shanghai at the end of the war, Hunt's autobiography indicates that he left Shanghai almost immediately after the announced disbanding of OSS (which he says he read in a Shanghai newspaper, which would make it about 30 September 1945), and arrived back in the United States on Thanksgiving Day 1945—which was 22 November. And Weberman claims that Dorothy Wetzel did not transfer from Bern to Shanghai until April 1946—months after Hunt purportedly had left Shanghai.

According to E. Howard, he first met Dorothy "in the spring of 1948" on the occassion of his hiring by Averell Harriman at a meeting at the Washington headquarters of the CIA front Economic Cooperation Administration (ECA) Dorothy being at that time one of Harriman's secretaries. Imagine that.

And let's not even get into what ECA may or may not have had to do with the International Trade Mart and Clay Shaw in N'Awleeeans. But please do allow me to mention only in passing the little-heralded occasion of E. Howard Hunt having stopped off in New Orleans in or about January 1946, on his way to Acapulco, where he says he went to "renew old acquaintances and make new friends." I just bet he did.

There's one final curious note, which I realize is wandering even further afield from the James Walton Moore coincidences, but I can't seem to let it go: Hunt claims in his autobiography <koff, hack> that he was "asked" before he left China (by whom he studiously does not say) if he wanted to join "the newly created Central Intelligence Group" (CIG). But CIG will not be officially created until 24 January 1946, long after Hunt has returned to the United States (22 November 1945), and even after he has traveled on to Acapulco, Mexico. This indicates that the creation of CIG was planned at some level, by someone, as early as the end of September or beginning of October 1945—exactly when McCloy was squirreling away the units and personnel he wanted preserved into peacetime covert work—and that Hunt was in that loop. According to Hunt, he "declined politely and firmly" to join CIG. On that count, Hunt, as usual, is almost certainly a goddamned liar.

The fun just keeps on coming, doesn't it?

Ashton

Very good, Ashton.

Jumping ahead to 1947, we have this curious document in which it states, "Unable to obtain a Visa from the Russians." Can anyone put a context to that?

The daughter mentioned (Margaret Moore) married a guy by the name of John Wayne Payne (seriously). A few months ago, I tried to contact a family member (an interesting experience on its own) and was told that J. Walton Moore died only weeks earlier on the 18th of June, 2006.

I'm wondering if there is anyway to confirm this. I seem to remember there was some kind of data base connected to the Social Security which has been discussed here before. If anyone can post the web address, it would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

James

James-

That is weird. How could someone in China not get to another posting in China because

the Russians withheld a visa.........


E. Howard Hunt and J. Walton Moore do seem to be contemporaries, if not colleagues.



"C"

Shanet,



After leaving the Dallas Police Force, Paul McCaghren started a private eye firm.

I exchanged some emails with him several months ago, and he is rather, ummmm, touchy.

Steve Thomas

I wanted to bring this back to life, now that we've located some addional docs on JWM.

BK

Moore, J. Walton

HSCA – Volume XI

IV. Allegations of De Morhrenschildt's Intelligence Connectioins

(29) During his Warren Commission testimony, de Mohrenschildt was asked by Counsel Jenner if he had "ever been in any respect an agent." (67) De Mohrenschildt responded that he never had…..(31) In his Warren Commission testimony de Mohrenschildet stated that he believed he had discussed Lee Harvey Oswald with J. Walton Moore, whom de Mohrenschildt described as "a Government man – either FBI or Central Intelligence." (77) De Mohrenschildt said Moore had interviewed him when he returned from Yugoslvaia and that he was knowna as the head of the FBI in Dallas. (78) De Mohrenschildt asserted that he asked Moore and Ft. Worth attorney Max Clark about Osawld to reassure himself that it was "safe" for de Mohrenschildt to assist Oswald. (79) According to his testimony, de Mohrenschildt was told by one of the persons he talked to that Oswald, although he said he could not remember who it was, that "the guy seems to be OK." (80)

This admitted association with J. Walton Moore fed the rumors of some involvement by de Mohrenschildt in intelligence activities. In 1963 J. Walton Moore was employed by the Central Intelligence Agency in Dallas, Tex., in the Domestic Contacts Division. (81) According to Moore's CIA personnel file, he was assigned to the Domestic Contacts Division in 1948. (82) Moore's duties in the Dallas office were contacting individuals in the are who had information on foreign topics. (83)
[/size]
In an Agency memorandum dated April 13, 1977, contained in George de Mohrenschildt's CIA file, Moore set forth facts to counter a claim which had been recently made by WFAA-TV in Dallas that Lee Harvey Oswald was employed by the CIA and that Moore knew Oswald. In that memo, Moore is quoted as saying that according to his records the last time he talked to George de Mohrenschildt was in the fall of 1961. (84) Moore said that he had no recollection of any conversation with de Mohrenschildt: First, in the spring of 1958 to discuss the mutual interest the two couples had in mainland China: and then in the fall of 1961 when the de Mohrenschildts showed films of their Latin American walking trip. (86)

Other documents in de Mohrenschildt's CIA file indicate more contact between Moore and de Mohrenschildt than was stated in the 1977 memo by Moore. In a memorandum dated May 1, 1964, from Moore to the Acting Chief of the Contacts Division of the CIA. Moore stated that he had known George de Mohrenschildt and his wife since 1957, at which time Moore got biographical data on de Mohrenschildt after de Mohrenschildt's trip to Yugoslavia for the International Cooperation Administration (87) Moores said also in that 1964 memo that he saw de Mohrenschildt several times in 1958 and 1959. (88)

DeMohrenschildt's CIA file contained several repors submitted by de Mohrenschildt to the CIA on topics concerning Yugoslavia. (89)

In an interview with the committee on March 14, 1978, Moore stated that he did interview de Mohrenschildt in 1957 after the Yugoslavia trip. (90) At that time Moore also indicated he had "periodic contact with de Mohrenschildt for "debriefing" purposes over the years after that. (91) Moores said that none of that contact or conversation with de Mohrenschildt was related to Oswald: Moore said that the allegations that de Mohrenschildt asked Moore's "permission" to contact Oswald were false. (92)

From George De Mohrenschildt's manuscript "I'm A Patsy!"

…But one evening with Oswalds, frought with incidents, stands out in our memory. That evening we decided to show the 8mm. movie of our walking trip which Lee did not see and insisted on seeing. This was sometime in January of 1963. A scientist working for the research department of an oil company, Edward Glover, arranged for the projection in his house. And he invited all his friends, acquaintances and colleagues. Most scientists and skillful technicians dream of wilderness and free life in the open. And so the large room was full. Our only guests were Lee and Marina. They had found someone to babysit for baby June.

I did now show the film often as this original was precious to us and we didn't have a copy. Taken all outdoors, this film came out amazingly well starting with our departure from the "civilized" world and ending a year later south of the Panama canal. What we did was a little walk from the Texas border, all on foot – and we did not cheat even once.-
This trip began in October of 1960 and we returned from Panama in a civilized way by plane, to Jamaika first and then to Haiti where we took a good rest.

During this hegira we made a complete breakaway from all comforts, slept exclusively outside, on the ground, ate whatever the Indians had to sell and I exchanged occasionally my knowledge of minerals against food supplies. We walked freely as much as we wanted, slowly at first, much faster later, guiding ourselves by old mining maps and by compass. We lost a lot of disgusting fat in a hurry and after three months became lean and bronzed like savages, able to run up a high mountain without breathing hard.

The film, taken periodically, showed this amazing change in us, from slobs to healthy individuals, the rest consisted of beautiful scenery, of Indians we met, of our wonderful Manchester hero and our unpredictable mule – Condessa.

We stopped in a ranch south of the Panama canal and left our mule there, to be retired from hard work. I hope she ended her life peacefully.

Quite of a few of Glover's friends from Dallas and New York, mostly your career people, although conservatively inclined, were interested in meeting Lee Harvey Oswald. Some were more interested in him than in our movie. And they got their money's worth. After the showing they asked Lee some pointed questions and he answered them aggressively and sharply without hiding, and even exaggerating, his feelings. Lee wanted to show these well dressed, prosperous youngsters that he was different radically from them. I wanted to stop him but he went on nevertheless talking of his sympathies of revolutionary movements all over the world, of his respect for Fidel Castro and for Che Guevara. This made him hardly popular with this group, composed mainly of big oil companies' employees, dreaming not of revolution but of advancement of their respective careers.

And there is nobody more conservative and even race conscious than an oil company employee or executive. Lee knew that, "I bet you" he said sharply, "that your companies do not employ any Blacks or Mexicans in any positions, not executive but average postion…."

Nobody answered Lee's challenge.

"But there was an exception in this conservative group – a tall, dark haired, attractive women in her late twenties. She took a vivid interest in Marina and did not take offense to Lee's utterances. She asked me if Marina spoke any English. I said, - "no."

"Would you introduce me to he? My name is Ruth Payne."




From Section of "I'm A Patsy!" after the assassination, De Mohrenschildt living in Hait:

Now something unusual happened. A grey-suited, bulky, Miami suntanned, with false teeths and an artificial smile, Mr. W. James Wood, an Agent of the FBI arrived in Port-au-Prince for the sole purpose to make me deny a statement I had made to my friends and to the political officer at the Embassy. What was this disturbing statement? I had contacted a government man in Dallas, the only one I knew personally, probably a CIA agent, or possible an agent of the FBI, a very nice fellow by the name of J. Walton Moore. Looks like it's a specialty of these government agents to have a capital letter instead of the first name. Purely Anglo-Saxon, you know….Anyway, Mr. J. Walton Moore had interviewed me upon my return from a government mission to Yugoslvaia and we got along well. He had lived in China, was born there as a matter of fact, in a missionary family. So I invited him and his wife to the house and he got along fabulously well with Jeanne. I used to see Mr. Moore occasionally for lunch. A cosmopolitan character, most attractive. A short time after meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald, before we became friends, I was a little worried about his opinions and his background. And so I went to see Mr. J. Walton Moore to his office, in the same building I used to have my own office – Reserve Loan Life Building on Ervay Street, and asked him point blank. "I met this young ex-Marine, Lee Harvey Oswald, is it safe to associate with him?" And Mr. Moore's answer was: "he is OK. He is just a harmless lunatic."

That he was harmless was good enough for me. I could decide for myself whether Lee was a lunatic….

And that was the statement which greatly disturbed W. James Wood and his superiors. And that same statement disturbed later Albert Jenner, a counsel of the Warren Commission, when I gave my testimony. As disturbed Jenner was and he knew that my testimony was truthful, W. James Wood, who came to see us in Haiti was more than disturbed. He tried to make me deny this statement. And so we were sitting in a luxurious Embassy room, staring with animosity at each other, and this repulsive, replete bureaucrat dared to tell me: "you will have to change your statement."

"What do you mean?" I asked incredulously.

"That false statement of yours that a government man told you that our President's assassin was a harmless lunatic."

"False statement; Man, you are out of your mind!" I answered sharply.

And so the grey-suited man in no uncertain terms threatened me:

"Unless you change your statement, life will be tough for you in the States."

"Nuts!" Was the only answer I could make.

After meeting with Mr. W. James Woods, I immediately began having doubts of Lee's guilt. And while I was talking to him, the conversation lasted quite some time, he constantly tried to intimidate me reminding me a lot of undesirable people I had met in my life and puritanically challenging me on the grounds of moral turpitude, i.e. too many women.

I told this obnoxious FBI agent that either the FBI or CIA or any other agency was in any way implicated in President Kennedy's assassination. I just took a precaution which seemingly backfired. But I did imply that these government agencies were negligent. Still my statement was of utter importance to the FBI and Mr. Wood and he kept on trying to force me to deny it.

I categorically refused to deny anything and we ended this stormy session without shaking hands.















[size="3"]

Bill wrote:

"I wanted to bring this back to life, now that we've located some addional docs on JWM."

Bill, you misspelled "additional". Perhaps this phraseology would be better:

"I wanted to bring this back to life, now that we have located more on Moore."

Bill, as everyone knows, I do not believe the CIA was involved.

But, assuming anyone from the CIA was involved, I suspect there is more to it than Moore!

(Sorry, it's been a long night!)

Well, I'd come up with yet another stupid play on words, but discretion got the better of me and I decided--yeah, you got it-- no more!

Sorry Tim, as everyone knows, it doesn't matter what you believe, and it's too late for the CIA not to be involved.

And J. W. Moore is right in the thick of it.

Moore to come.

BK

Bill, as everyone knows, it doesn't matter what ANYONE believes.

Truth is not decided by the popularity of any opinion. Ask Galileo.

I have yet to see an iota of evidence of CIA involvement, but for the alleged confessions of Morales and Wheaton, and the ravings of E. Howard Hunt that I tend to dismiss out of hand.

If there is any more to it, please advise what more there is.

Well Tim, I was never trying to prove any CIA involvement. I'm just trying to put the pieces together. I don't blame the CIA for anything, but they certainly have got into some messy business, especially with this assassination and all.

One iota of CIA involvement is Ruth Paine Forbes Young, Michael's mom, and traveling companion of Allen Dulles' paramour agent Mary Bancroft. That's not seven degrees of separation, that's only two.

Apparently the CIA feels the same way you do about it.
They had nothin to do with it, yet they released hundreds of thousands of pages of documents they generated about it, and are holding back on just the ones we ask for.

Just go to the redacted CIA documents they won't let you read and if there's more to it, I'm sure you'll find it there.

BK

But Bill if we go there we also have the close connection between Jackie and DeMohrenschildt.

What does THAT mean?

If that connection means nothing (at least without more) (and I am sure it means nothing) why then a connection between Michael's mother and Dulles' female compatriot may also mean nothing.

Yea, George and Jackie means nothing, but Michael's Mom and Dulles' Paramour means something because Dulles and his Paramour had previously participated in a conspiracy to assassinate a head of state and coup d'etat to take over a country - Nazi German.

BK

Bill, sorry, as much as I respect your research and writing, and I do, your leap of logic in this case is way overboard..

The fact that Allen Dulles participated in a plot to kill the head of a foreign state who was a mass murderer and was also the head of a country at which we were AT WAR has, I submit, no bearing whatsoever on his willingness to murder a democractically elected president of his own country.

Do you REALLY think it does?

It certainly establishes a precident, at least for Dulles.

BK

Hi Tim,

Did you see my post on Michael Paine and ESP under "Coincidence or Conspiracy?" Thread?

Indeed there is more on Moore. Attached is a link to Greg Parker's new web site Reopen JFK Case - with my article on THE O'REILLY FACTOR & THE JFK ASSASSINATION -
J. Walton Moore and LHO.


http://reopenjfkcase.interodent.com/index....36&Itemid=9

Is there a photo of Moore available?

And many thanks to Robert Howard for providing docs and Greg for posting it.

BK

Bill wrote that Dulles' involvement in a plot to assassinate Hitler establishes a precedent.

Well, I guess so, Bill. There were no doubt at least 100,000,000 Americans who would have been more than willing to put a bullet through Hitler's skull if given the chance. But that does not mean, obviously, that a single one would have been willing to kill an American president, even if they greatly disgreed with his policies or despised him as a person.

Let's get personal here: would YOU have been willing to shoot Hitler?

Good article, Bill!...just one more of a couple quadrillion iotum [sorry, never took Latin] that point toward the CIA, its agents, cut-outs and manipulated assets in this case.....

Where was Moore at noon on 11/22?

I believe it is familyresearch.org

To Bill:

1) Do you contend that Oswald was an innocent patsy?

2) If so, what difference does it make if Moore knew Oswald?

It would seem Oswald's associates merit consideration as "persons of interest" if and only if Oswald was part of the conspiracy to kill JFK.

http://reopenjfkcase.interodent.com/index....36&Itemid=9


Tim, as with your beliefs, it doesn't matter what I contend, it's what the government contends - that Oswald was the assassin of the President, and whether the triggerman or the patsy, Oswald was part of the conspiracy, and thus his associates are more than just "persons of interest," especially if one happens to be a CIA agent.

It's not my suspicion that J. Walter Moore and his association with DeMorn and Oswald is significant and should be looked at more closely, it is the government's secrecy and false HSCA assertions that make it so.

BK

Bill, I respectfully differ with you, it precisely DOES matter who Oswald really was--not who the government SAYS he was. If Oswald was innocent, there is no reason whatsoever that I can see to look on any of his associates with suspicion, whether those were CIA, FBI, anti-Castro exiles, or whoever.

If on the other hand Oswald was indeed part of the conspiracy, then it is tautological that at least some of the people with whom he was associated were part of the conspiracy.

It certainly would be nice if the government chose to "let it all hang out" but has the thought ever crossed your mind that LHO was involved in a CIA plot (nothing to do with JFK) that the CIA was desperate to conceal (e.g. an ongoing CIA plot to kill Castro) and it is or was that desperation that led to the cover-up? (Maybe even the scenario proposed in "Dr. Mary's Monkey")

And remember the old saying "Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." If the CIA lied to the WC and the public about its relationship with LHO, it now risks losing all of its credibility if it is finally forced to reveal its prior lies. IMO this may be the best explanation of what is happening and why all the secrecy.

Thanks Peter,

I hope to expand on this theme a little more with the addition of new documents and the determination if J.W. Moore is indeed RIP.

Will try to find out where JWM was at noon 11/22.

BK

Bill; Great article. Seems really important. I urge everyone to read this ASAP. Couldn't put it down.
Any way of getting a timeline on Ford to go with it? It you can tie this in with more details about Ford in the next intallment, it seems like
this could be a REAL BREAKTHROUGH, provided the leads on Ford pan out. It might be one even if you have no more on Ford, as your linking the
1978? CIA memo to the O'Reily on air transcript is a real find!

Don't the implications of your article put David Phillips at the center of everything and not just the Oswald dangle?

What credibility?

Again Ron scores a point with his humor, but I think he over-states it.

I do think there would be a crushing blow to the CIA if it revealed at this late date that it had involved LHO in some anti-Castro operation that backfired and led to the assassination. Whatever credibility the CIA maintains would disappear. And that, I submit, may be what is fueling a continued cover-up.

The fact that Tim is now into THIS Limited Hangout mode NOW, might suggest something about how close Bill's article is to something really important.


Tim, I don't think I've ever heard you speculate before on the possibility that the CIA was running LHO in an anti-Castro operation. Yes, I recognize that you are using the conditional tense; still it seems further than you have gone along this line before, in acknowledging the possibility. I COULD WELL BE MISTAKEN, and trust you will correct me if this is the case.

Nathan, I do believe it is very possible that the CIA was using LHO in an anti-Castro operation.

This would certainly make him the "perfect patsy" for the JFK case if the assassination was planned by: a) Castro supporters; the Mafia; c) rogue CIA agents; d) take your pick.

I do NOT believe, however, that if LHO was involved in such an operation, the people behind it were the people that planned the Kennedy assassination.

Here's the link to the story for those who haven't read it. - BK

http://reopenjfkcase.interodent.com/index....36&Itemid=9

More on Moore:
From page 132 Mellon's A Farewell To Justice"
"IN 1976 with the HSCA investigation looming, J. Walton Moore wrote to the head of the Domestic Collection Division, formerly Domestic Contact, for help in handling "the exposure of Shaw's connections with the CIA.""
From page 343:
"A memo from J. Walton Moore in Dallas is titled, "Request For Guidance In Responsing To News Media Inquiries." [apparently sent to Office of General Council John Greaney and Deputy Chief of Operations Ed Watts, CIA]. Reference by Mellon seems to indicate there is an extant reply.

Peter,

There are 100+ docs regarding JW Moore at NARA, and so far I've only reviewed two of them.

The second doc, of handwritten notes, mentions that Moore played handball with Col. Orlov, which means that both DeMorn and Col. Orlov were associated with Moore when they sought Oswald out and visited him at his apartment the first time.

Here's a list of the RIFS of some of the other Moore docs.
We're just getting started putting together a portrait of J.W. Moore.

Does anyone have an obit on him yet?

BK


J. Walton Moore – CIA File RIFFS – NARA



- 104-10135-10258 – 3 photos

- 104-10124 -10219 – Badge photos

- 104-10124-10341 – Photo

- 104-10428-10194 – Photo 4/18/77

- 104-10103-10147 -?

- 104-10414-10194

- 104-10404-10132

1944 – 104-10124-10346 –

1944 – 104-10124-10228 – Fingerprint Check

1944- 104-10124-10346 – FBI

1945- 104-10124-10341 – 4//27/45

1947 – 104-10124-10333 – Final Instructions before overseas assignment

1947 – 104-10124-10225 – Security Rating

1949 – 104-10124-10330 – Communications Brief

1952 – 104-10124-10315 – Navy Check

1953 – 104-10124 – 10303 – Bio

104-10124 – 10317 – Bio

104-10214 – 10307 – Bio

1953- 104-10124-10306 – OSS- USN Ensign?

1953- 104-10124-10309 – Inv. Trans.

1954 – 104-10124-10295 – IRB – 1A Restricted? – Still classified?

1954- 104-1-10126-10294 – Interrogation Branch

1954 – 104-10124-10299 – GWU Law School Verification

1954- 104-10124-10300

1955 - 104-10124-10313 – Crypto clearance

1956 – 104-10124-10221 – Shefield Edwards

1963 – 104-10124-10289 – Crypto Revoked –

1963- 104-10170-10210 – Hugh Grant Aynesworth to Cuba? 10/10/63

1964- 104-10414-10208 – Details to Acting Chief?

1964 – 104-10429-10082 – 57-61 details

1964 – 104-10414-10191 –

1964- 104-10428-10198 – Contact w/G.DeM.

1964- 104-10062-10007 – George DeM.

1964- 178-10002-10385 – Rock Com –

1964- 135-10001-10282 – Affidavit Re: DeM

1964- 104-10414-10028 – Dear George…(RHWF)

1964- 104-10124-10283 -

1966- 104-10124-10281 – Security – Harold J. Osborne OS

1969 – 104-10124-10268 – Assignment HQ

1971- 104-10428-10191 – John Cook – (RHWF)

1973 – 104-10124-10262 – Reassignment? Carol Delaney Ex. Off. DCS

1975 – 178-10003-10357 – Rock Com

1975 – 104-10312-10083 – Gordon Novel impersonating CIA

104-10312-10120

1975- 104-10124-10260 – ID Cred. / Charles Kane/ D/OS/CIA

1975- 104-10428-10197 – IG

1976 – 104-10189-10037 – Guidance sought.

1976- 104-10414-10195 – Dick Russell querry

1976 – 104-10414-10140 – (Russ Holmes)

104-10414-10139 – RH

104-10414-10154 – RH

1977 – 104-10124-10243 – Retirement?

1977 – 104-10124 – 10335 – USN Security Brief

1977 – 104 -10124-10248 – Control Slips

1977 – 104-10030- 10011 – Dallas Field 4/13/77

1977-104-10147-10182 -4/13

1977- 104-10147-10182 – 4/13

1977- 104-10244-10158 – 4/13

1977- 104-10428-1-196 – 4/13

1977- 104-10244-10150- 4/15

1977- 104-10413-10302 – 4/26 Paul McCagren

104-10413-10303

104-10244-10151

1977 – 104-10244-10145 – WFAA TV 4/19/77

104-10147-10182

104-10413-10303

1977 – 104-10413-10301 – Routing slips/TV

104-10428-10195 – 4/1977 –

104-10147-10191 –

104-10142-10023

1977 – 104-10147-10192 – FBI Clarence Kelly (Dir)

1977- 104-10065-10265 – Maurice Bishop

1978 – 104-10135-10411 – 7/14/78 – Robert W. Gambino – Re: 10 individuals 6 orgs.

1978- 104-10124-10231 – Bruce L. Solie – C/SAG

1978 – 180-10143-10210 – Anti-Castro Cubans/CIA Sequestered-

180-10145-10430 – Gilberto Lopez

1978 – 104-10066-10014 – Harold Leap

1978 – 104-10133-10422 – HSCA

104-10071-10201 – HSCA

104-10267-10265 - HSCA

1978-104-10126-10076 – HSCA – 6/22/ - Roger S. Gabrielson

1979 – 104-10124-10330 – HSCA drafts – Scott Breckenridge/Wm Sturbits