Today's incident at Virginia Tech in USA, an apparent spree killing of dozens of victims, is being blamed on a lone-nut, responsible for two separate shootings two hour apart.

The worst killing on a college campus since Kent State and Texas Tower killings, already has multible mysteries that should be answered over the next few days.

It will be an interesting case study to see how this unravells.

BK

It is being reported tonight that the gunman was Asian. Is it possibly a terrorist attack. It was said on the news that it is the 19th mass shooting in 10 years.

Perp: Asian, student age (whatever that means), maroon hat, leather jacket, most likely armed with [2] 9mm automatics 15 round clip- 1 round chamber for a total of 16 rounds per weapon... alleged gunman DEAD at scene

total confirmed dead at Noon PST -- 31 mostly students, some faculty

one thing I learned at Homicide is not to assume or presume anything-the facts will come out

The latest news is a spurned lover type thing. girl breaks up with guy, he's goes off the deep end. But as you said ,the facts need to come out.

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Yes John,

Compared to the "civilized" English, we Americans are, by and large, all-to-often @*#&%@ downright barbaric...

--Thomas

P.S. Pardon my "German" (or is it "French?!" -- "%&#@," I don't know, but that's OK, I'm just an uncultured *%$#@&%!!! ) lol

Thomas...don't you know it is against forum rules to say

"@*#&%@@*#&%@#&%&%@"

Jack

Right BK,

Of course it's Déjà Vu. The official doublespeak was quick to come: "We don't know if the same gunman acted in the 7 AM shooting & in the 9 AM shooting." There has been a swift lock down on information & a swift introduction of red herrings. By isolating the first shooting from the second shooting incident, by separating them, it becomes possible to justify NOT canceling classes after the first incident. It's Dallas & 911 all over again.

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Hi Jack,

Dang, Froggie, you right. I really should know better'rn. I guess that's what I get from a-readin' way too much of that there drug 'n al-key-haul-addled rascal Hunter S. Thompson and that prevert William F. Burroughs! I knows I reely otter start a-readin' some of them writers like that "Polak" English merchant marine Joseph Conrad an'..., an'..., ...uhh... Shakyspeares and peoples like that so as I can a-come up with a 18-letter epitaph I mean epithet when I really needs two, iffin' you know what I meens...

--Thomas

P.S. "Go Froggies!" (and I don't mean them fancy-smancy Par-reez-zuns...) "Purple Haze, baby!" Thomas Graves-- class of '71 but never done grad-ju-ated...

P.P.S. I'm part "Polak," myself. Great grandfathers's name: Podermanski.


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Yeah, definitely a conspiracy. Right.

--Thomas

"Paranoia strikes deep......."

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Yes, you are clearly right. But if it is true, and there are hundreds of Muslim terrorists living in the US, why don't they carry out these kind of attacks? It would definitely create a real sense of terror.

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Hold on, folks, hold on... I got a real strong intuition that Mr. Miles Scull is going to accuse me of "complicity" (in the context of his last post) in the shooting of the people at Virginia Tech, the assassination of JFK, and/or the 9/11 tragedy. Let's see..., "complicity".... Uhh, here it is: "Involvement as an accomplice in a crime or wrongdoing." Hmm......

Are you sure that's the word you're looking for, Mr. Scull?

Actually, you're right about "Dallas", Mr. Scull, in a very general sort of way in that I, yes I!, due to the influence of my JBS-type parents and their friends and the very conservative environment of La Jolla, California, was guilty of conspiring, along with millions of other Americans, of the wrongdoing of loathing JFK and of actually thinking that Goldwater was, yes!, the cat's meow. Shucks, I was even guilty of the crime of having a "Au H20 in '64" bumper sticker on (the inside of) my bedroom door! Yes!, I'm a fugitive from justice, a criminal! on the run! (Never mind the fact that I was only thirteen years at the time and that since then I've "pulled a U-ey" in my political thinking and am now a firm believer that Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy, yes!, a conspiracy of evil @*&%$#&@.)


--Thomas

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I dare say, Graves, that your complicity completely flew over your head & that you exist, as we often see, in a state of total self approval. No surprise to anyone, of course, except to you.

It's looking like it was a Chinese student who went postal after an argument with his girlfriend.

Please don't be like that loose change mob, who are claiming it was a 'Manchurian Candidate' operation to deflect attention from Iraq.

I think it is only a matter of time before Muslim terrorists in the US use this tactic. It has already happened in Russia.

I think it is only a matter of time before Muslim terrorists in the US use this tactic. It has already happened in Russia.

Here's something for the Mossad-did-it-mob. Don't say I don't do anything for ya, boyz

The massacre was predicted by a ZOG conspiracy theorist on Mar 18 in a news group post. Here's part of the post:

Homeland Security warning: Our ZOG is planning another Port Arthur/horiffic shooting.

USA's ZOG is planning a bloody shooting incident...in a mall..or a school..or maybe a drive by in a crowded downtown...or maybe a
sniper.....Zog needs to stage a massacre.... to twist USA's arm and force naive people to turn over their guns.

Don't be fooled. Don't hand over your guns like the Australians did to their ZOG.


Come to think of it, wasn't it predicted by members of the right wing Commie conspiracy theorists that a Communist/Jew/Black would be picked for the JFK thingy...? and sure enough, that's exactly what happened!

These people truly have crystal balls.

I suggest the rest of us get steel...

With 80 people killed with guns everyday in the US it is not too difficult to predict that mass shootings will take place on a regular basis.

I agree, John. Just couldn't resist the crystal ball line. I came across the newsgroup post looking to see if the NRA had started to blame it on a conspiracy by the gun control lobby yet, just as they did in the Port Arthur case.

people are convenientally forgetting Dunblane (spelling?) Scotland, Beslan, Ma'Lot in Israel and the female students slaughtered in Montreal.

The gun did not hypnotise the Asian kid into committing murder-I sell hundreds of handguns a yr and none have been used in a crime.

Korean student (senior class in fact) and what does "postal" mean?

Are guns to blame?

OK. Campus police find two bodies in a dorm room, newly dead from gunshot wounds. They find no perpetrator & no gun. A witness reports that a boyfriend of one of the victims may be responsible. Campus police and/or President Charles Steger conclude that this is a "domestic" situation limited to the dorm locus. No alert of a deadly killer at large is disseminated to the campus & to students on campus. The killer remains on campus, waits two hours, then kills 31 people.

Is there something wrong here? The authorities had to have immediately locked down the campus until the killer was found & neutralized. The authorities are complicit & are doing everything possible to deflect attention away from their incompetency & dereliction. Sound familiar?

Of course things like this happen in other countries. However, as I pointed out, on average the US has 80 gun killings a day. No other country in the world comes close to this. I know this is all part of your idea of freedom but you have to accept the risks that comes with such a policy.

Finally:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266460,00.html

Freedom will always bring a risk, but as long as people who committ gun crimes are not appropriately punished there is no deterance. In 20yrs in Detroit I saw one crime committed by the owner of a legally registered handgun-all the other crimes I saw were committed with stolen guns.

For anyone interested: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4721024.html



"The university community is urged to be cautious and are asked to contact Virginia Tech Police if you observe anything suspicious..."

This is sound advice, yes... Since there is now an armed killer on campus, if you happen to notice anyone killing students with a firearm please contact Virginia Tech Police. Exercise caution, otherwise you yourself might be killed & thus the Virginia Tech Police will not be notified & not alerted to this dangerous problem.

John, that's ~80/day internally. Externally we are responsible for many thousands per day averaged over time...Haiti, Iraq, Sudan, Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines, Nicaragua, Guatamala, etc. et al. ad nauseum WW2-present. The single most violent nation on Earth since WW2, despite the PR image otherwise.

(I also think the number 80 sounds too low.)

Common Dreams reports that US Forced to Import Bullets from Israel as Troops Use 250,000 for Every Rebel Killed

On that basis, each US soldier posted overseas to promote democracy at the point of a gun needs a separate Environmental Impact Assessment.

I preume that ghetto gangsters are more frugal with their ammo?

An average of 80 a day was quoted on a BBC radio show yesterday.




The two guns that killed the people in Virginia were purchased legally. Apparently it does not break the rules to take guns to school in Virginia. Having harsh punishments for people who kill 32 people seems fairly irrelevant when they end up killing themselves. In fact, any rational punishment system will not work if the person is emotionally disturbed over a broken love affair.

Every day individuals get very upset when they have some conflict with another human being. Thankfully, most individuals in the world do not have access to a gun when this happens and the damage that they do to other humans is fairly limited. In the US when this happens, there is always the possibility of mass carnage.

I cannot see how the American people cannot see this. On the BBC radio phone-in, American after American phoned in to say that it was vitally important for Americans to have the freedom to “bear arms”. That it is in the American Constitution and this must not be changed otherwise it will lead to other freedoms such as the freedom of speech to be removed. This gives the impression that Americans think they are on the edge of the imposition of a police state. The idea that once you have a law you cannot change it is bizarre. Laws always have to change with changing circumstances. It might have been a good idea to allow people to own guns when the government was unable to provide an adequate law enforcement system. But to allow it to happen today is a recipe for disaster. How many unnecessary deaths do you have to experience before the American people have to change their minds on this subject? As I said earlier, it is only a matter of time that if Muslim terrorists exist in the US it is only a matter of time before they use your culture against you.

One American woman phoned in to say that she was brought up to have a gun available at all times to protect her. It seems that her father had a fear that someone would break-in and rape her. She said that when she was a teenager her boyfriend went off with someone else. She got hold of the gun and came close to killing herself with it (whereas men shoot their partners or rivals, women tend to shoot themselves). She didn’t and afterwards got rid of the gun. As she said, when you are emotionally disturbed, a gun is no protection at all.

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Mr. Simkin,

Nice to see a bit of English sarcasm. Or is it just ignorance?

Sincerely yours,
--Thomas

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"As she said, when you are emotionally disturbed, a gun is no protection at all."


"In 1994, when the U.S. Congress debated whether to ban "assault weapons," a talk show host asked then-Senator Bill Bradley (New Jersey), a sponsor of the ban, whether guns cause crime. The host noted that, in Switzerland, all males are issued assault rifles for militia service and keep them at home*, yet little crime exists there. Sen. Bradley responded that the Swiss "are pretty dull."

(* and these are state of the art military assault rifles. And after completion of training are allowed, if they wish, to buy the rifle. They can also own and carry, in holsters, concealed hand guns.)

For those who think that target shooting is more fun than golf, however, Switzerland is anything but "dull." By car or train, you see shooting ranges everywhere, but few golf courses. If there is a Schuetzenfest (shooting festival) in town, you will find rifles slung on hat racks in restaurants, and you will encounter men and women, old and young, walking, biking and taking the tram with rifles over their shoulders, to and from the range. They stroll right past the police station and no one bats an eye. (Try this in the U.S., and a SWAT Team might do you in.)

Tourists--especially those from Japan, where guns are banned to all but the police--think it's a revolution. But shooting is the national sport, and the backbone of the national defense as well. More per capita firepower exists in Switzerland than in any other place in the world, yet it is one of the safest places to be."


Why is this so?

Similarly in Sweden. I remember as a boy on a school excursion to a army training site where we trecked around the forests picking up dropped shells from maneuvers and being taught which are live and which are blanks.

Why are guns then used so destructively in the USofA?

One reason you don't get gun crimes in Sweden like you do in the USA, despite there being loads of high-powered rifles in circulation (owned by hunters of elk, bear and wild boar) is that the possession of firearms is strictly licensed here.

To get a gun license, you first have to do a three-month course (usually run by the Swedish Hunting Association). Then you have to apply to the police and demonstrate that you're a stable, law-abiding person. You have to have an approved gun safe at home, and you have to keep the firing mechanism locked up and separate from the rest of the gun.

After that, the police can do regular background checks on you, and if you get arrested for drunk driving, or harassing your ex-partner, it's a racing certainty that the police will be around to collect your firearms immediately. They'll also revoke your gun license and the only way to get it back is to apply to the courts (who'll want fairly concrete evidence that you've dealt with your emotional problems).

Sure it's a restriction on your personal freedom, but, then again, I'm not free to drive on the left-hand side of the road here either! In other words, we're all subject to all sorts of restrictions just by living in a society. The question is how reasonable the restrictions are.

I remember my first visit to the States very clearly. It was in 1982 and I stayed with American families and met 'ordinary' Americans in Atlanta, Knoxville and Washington DC for three weeks. During that time violent incidents happened to three of the people I met, or to people very closely related to them (i.e. during the three weeks I was there). The most tragic one was the family in Knoxville who proudly showed us their home arsenal, which ranged from hand guns to a belt-driven machine gun! They had 14 firearms about the house altogether ('to protect themselves from burglars' in a very quiet, gated community …). Whilst we were in Washington DC, the mother we'd met was doing the ironing, and the 14-month old baby got hold of one of the hand guns. Before she had time to do anything, the baby had pulled the trigger and died. What most surprised - and shocked - me was that this was only one in a succession of similar incidents in that extended family, but none of them drew any conclusions about the keeping of firearms where children could get to them.

My take on all this is that every society has taboos it just can't discuss. In Sweden it's alcohol (or, rather, letting go of your rationality), and in the States it's the possession of firearms. In the UK, it's most things relating to sex and the human body. If you happen to live in a society where you don't suffer from that particular taboo, you can see all sorts of reasonable solutions, but people who are subject to that taboo just can't take in what you say. So … I'm not expecting much in the way of a reasoned debate about the possession of firearms from our friends and colleagues in the US. However, this doesn't mean you have to give up - societies do change.

It used to be sex but now it is drugs. See this report today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6566369.stm

However, the politicians refuse to introduce a logical drug policy.

I find it interesting how once again the term 'loner' is being used to describe the gunman. I was watching Sky news yesterday and they were interviewing a professor of American studies/history who was American and taught at a university in the UK (Birmingham I think). After discussing gun laws in the US, and the 'lone gunman he said something like ' after the assasination attempts on Regan and the Kennedy assassination, the government should have learned lessons to prevent 'these type of people' getting guns so easily.' He was obviously implying that a lone killer killed Kennedy. Sad to think this man is a professor of history....
The media always seems as if they are implying that you are more likely to be a killer if you are 'quiet' and keep yourself to yourself. The media always seem to play on the word 'loner'. I would consider myself as being someone who enjoys my own company a fair bit as well as the company of others but I would call that being independant rather than being a 'loner'. It also doesn't mean I have any intention of going out and gunning people down. I never heard for example of a killer being described as 'outgoing'.
Just an observation.....

Eighty killings per day in the U.S. with handguns.

One must understand first, several seldom thought of conditions. Due to both the "size" and the ethnic mixture in the U.S., I am actually surprised at this "low" a number. This is 1.6 killings a day in each of the fifty states (most of which comprise a very large area and are well populated). If I am not mistaken, the state of Texas alone is larger than Germany. Also not mentioned here is the number of killings per day sans handguns.

There is also a "war on drugs" being conducted in the U.S., but I wonder how many "deaths per day" are due to drug overdose of illegal drugs, or deliberate misuse of prescribed drugs?

How many killings a day, by one means or another, are the result of domestic dispute, which if not committed with the use of guns, would not have occurred by some other means?

If children can procure illegal drugs, do you think that "potentially violent" adults could not find a way to posess illegal firearms?

I also wonder that due the phenomenal number of traffic deaths, should we: lower speed limits to 20mph----ban alcoholic beverages----or to be certain, just ban automobiles.

Killing occurred, according to the Bible, within the first family that God had created. And not with a handgun !

The act of deliberately killing, is itself legislated against throughout the entire world, and in many areas punishable by death. But does this prevent it?

What occurred was an "absolute horror" ! Thirty two people at least. But how many mass murderers, have one victim at a time, killed many more people before being caught? How many wander around and are never caught? Most of these killers do not use handguns.

I think the response to this tragedy is not surprising or unwarranted. But would an unbalanced individual have been less deranged and guilty if he had used Molotov Coctails which is easily done and much cheaper and easier to posess?

I could take this to extreme and state that if the teachers had been armed at both Columbine and Virgia Tech, there would have been many fewer deaths. Or more probably, these planned massacres would not even have been attempted---at least with handguns.

I feel that we are again experiencing a very natural human reaction---on both sides of the pond!

Guns can of course be "used" to kill. But a human who truly desires to kill one, or a mass of persons, will not be stopped regardless of legislation. LOOK AT 911 ! And hundreds of "suicide bombers'. It is "minds" that need to be changed or helped, not the pasing of legislation.

If all cookware suddenly became illegal to own----
would the world do much less cooking? Different cooking------but cooking still !

The idea of "guns as killers" is IMHO, not much different than "killing the messenger".

Here in the colonies, not everyone trusts the police or government agencies to completely protect us. We have less "trust" in these persons now, than ever before. And I think rightfully so. There will be no government agency or Army that could carry off 6 million Jews to be slaughtered over here.

One is not less dead as a result of the Killer being associated with government, than were he a crazed gunman.

It is our freedoms that protects us---not a dependency on others, or legislation.

A Japanese Admiral once said that it would be fruitless to invade the U.S., because you would have an armed civilian firing at you from behind every tree. He was right in 1941, and would be more right today.

People are "killers", not knives, arrows, baseball bats or sling shots! These, along with guns, are merely implements / tools.

My personal opinion only, but if a person wants to kill either one or one hundred people, he will find a reasonable way to do it wthout the use of the "tools" which I mentioned above.

It has been an ages old reality, that if you want to subdue a person or a group, you should first try to disarm them. This is why Americans will not disarm, before ALL other guns are permanently disposed of. Maybe not even then !

I didn't mean to preach, but a massacre like this introduces a self made forum for "gun control".

How does giving up protection, or placing your and your families protection in the hands of persons, who by nature, do not value your lives as much as you do, seem rational? It is, at best, a very bad gamble, which a great percentage of those in the U.S. are not willing to take.

I suppose that I will now hear, from the "more cultured" on this forum, how preposterous and uncivilized are my arguments.

But you must remember, that I have only recently emerged from my colonial Florida swampland, and will never realize the rationality that only the Old World cultured naturally inherit.

Charlie Black

There is bound to be new gun control legislation in the U.S. as a result of the Virginia Tech killings, because that's how the politicians in Congress react to any catastrophe: pass a law, any law they can get their hands on, to prevent it from "ever happening again."

Luckily for U.S. citizens, the Patriot Act was already written and waiting when 9/11 happened. But the government is not usually so amazingly prescient, thus knee-jerk legislation for every crisis.

While the situation continues to unfold, I think we can confidently place it in Peter Dale Scott's category of a such a special event that we can not depend on the mainstream media to quickly decipher the story.

In the meantime, we can do what we have been trained to do - begin a chronology/time line of events and name file, and see where this case goes.

I was going to take odds on how long this story was going to be a page one event, but things are starting to get bizzarro, and all bets are off.

BK

I find the official story of this event to be filled with the same kind of holes that seemingly all official stories are filled with. Just a few of my questions:

- How does this stereotypical "loner" (and yes, Francesa, I agree with you about the curiously liberal use of that term) have such a good-looking girlfriend? It just doesn't add up socially that someone who was so withdrawn and uncommunicative that he didn't even respond to simple greetings, could attract someone as attractive as the first victim was (assuming the reports about her being his girlfriend are correct).

- What were the app. 300 law enforcement officers doing cowering behind trees, in their protective gear, while this lone gunman fired off over 100 rounds in their midst? How could they have failed to storn the building where all the shots were coming from? This is on a par with JFK's Secret Service detail not reacting at all to the sound of gunfire in Dealey Plaza, only these officers had a lot more time to respond.

- Where did the lone gunman go during the over two hours between the shooting incidents? If he was wearing any of his shooter outfit as he walked across the campus, it is especially perplexing how none of the law enforcement personnel noticed him.

- Why didn't the university use the loudspeaker system, which was installed across the campus for just such a purpose, to notify students that a shooting had taken place, and the shooter had not been apprehended? How could the university president make the ridiculous claim that they initially thought this was a domestic dispute, and even a possible murder-suicide? How do you have a suicide without a murder weapon at the scene?

These are only a few of the questions that spring immediately to my mind. I am confident, however, that no mainstream journalist will ask them. This tragic incident will be exploited for political purposes, and boil down to yet another tired debate on gun control. For the record, I've never shot a gun, but there are scores of gun laws on the books, and one thing we should have learned by now is the simple fact that those who are willing to commit violent crimes are not likely to respect any gun laws. Washington, D.C. has some of the toughest gun laws in the land, and their crime rate is among the highest in the country. In this case, Va. Tech had a law against bringing guns on to the campus. Obviously, this demented fellow didn't obey it. Whatever happens, we'll probably get more "secure" campuses, and as a result, continue to lose more of our dwindling civil liberties.

Yes, the media is reacting exactly as could be expected. If I did not have cable television, which I pay $80.00 a month for, I could almost have watched nothing except this horrible incident. This is a "Media Dream Come True" !

I would like to say however, in response to John Simkin's post #29, that the young "suicidal lady",
to which you refer, would have committed suicide if she had access to a gun, is ridiculous. What is wrong with a razor blade? Her claim is ridiculous!
Please see my post #35.

Charlie Black

Our media is reporting that these initial stories are untrue and that she had a boyfriend from another university. In fact, she and another female student had complained about him stalking them.

I suspect that these "conspiracy" stories are an attempt to distract people from the real issue of "gun control".

I believe the second amendment reads: "Congress must not deny the states a militia. A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Clearly, this reflects a time when people were concerned over the possible tyranny of the federal government. Is that still true today.

I have just watched the video Cho Seung-hui made after killing the girl he had been stalking and before the mass massacre. He obviously wanted to become a "famous figure" in history and has used the latest technology to do so. His statement includes the following:

“I didn’t have to do this, I could have left, I could have fled, but now I will no longer run, it’s not for me, or for my children, for my brothers and sisters that you f*****! I did it for them.... You have vandalized my heart… torched my conscience. You thought it was one pathetic boy’s life you’re extinguishing…Thanks to you I die like Jesus Christ to inspire generations of the weak and defenseless people... You have never felt a single ounce of pain in your life but you want to inject as much misery in our lives as you can just because you can, you had everything you wanted. Your Mercedes wasn't enough, your brats. Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust fund wasn't enough. Your vodka and cognac weren't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough. Those weren't enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything."

These are of course the ramblings of a sick individual. However, it could be described as a political act. In fact, it reminded me of the videos made by terrorists. I am sure this will be the first of many such attacks. Some will be carried out by people who will claim political motives. The media, will give them the full publicity that they desire. That is the way capitalism works. As Marx's said, it is this internal contradiction that will eventually destroy it.

I have refused to watch news coverage this morning,
but the questions that immediately came to my mind yesterday are 1) why has no one interviewed this killer's high school teachers and acquaintances?
2) this student was 23 years old....what had he been doing in the period between high school and college? 3) if he had been diagnosed as unstable and a threat to himself, why he was released from a mental facility after only two days...I realize that he was voluntarily incarcerated and could not be held against his will, however didn't that mental institution have at least a moral responsibility to have reported this to anyone?
Did they "cure" his mental illness within two days? Was he prescribed medication?

Had he not the financial ability to pay for further treatment, there are government agencies that could have helped him with no charge. One of the questions asked while applying for permission to buy a handgun, "have you ever been diagnosed as being not mentally stable?" Should not someone have reported his mental diagnosis so that it could be a part of his record?

I understand that this University had a campus wide loudspeaker system, that was installed to handle potential crises. Why was it not used instead of an email? How many check their emails at 7:30 AM ?

There seems to be both much wrong which include complacency of the University, slow and inadequate reaction of the Police, and disturbngly gross errors "once again by the news media."

Regardless of how many laws are on the books, one cannot legislate against a great many failures of several different systems already recognized in this case ! Complacency and the lack of "common sense" also tend to deny the practical validity of established rules and laws. Instead of more "gun control laws", there are available many psychological tests that can be given to children in both high school and college. Possibly included as part of SAT testing! Mandatory testing!

Charlie Black

Are you kidding?

[quote name='John Simkin' post='100237' date='Apr 19 2007, 02:15 PM'][quote name='Don Jeffries' post='100204' date='Apr 19 2007, 05:08 AM']I find the official story of this event to be filled with the same kind of holes that seemingly all official stories are filled with. Just a few of my questions:
.........
I suspect that these "conspiracy" stories are an attempt to distract people from the real issue of "gun control".

I believe the second amendment reads: "Congress must not deny the states a militia. A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Clearly, this reflects a time when people were concerned over the possible tyranny of the federal government. Is that still true today.

I have just watched the video Cho Seung-hui made after killing the girl he had been stalking and before the mass massacre. He obviously wanted to become a "famous figure" in history and has used the latest technology to do so. ......

......These are of course the ramblings of a sick individual. However, it could be described as a political act. In fact, it reminded me of the videos made by terrorists. I am sure this will be the first of many such attacks. Some will be carried out by people who will claim political motives. The media, will give them the full publicity that they desire. That is the way capitalism works. As Marx's said, it is this internal contradiction that will eventually destroy it.[/quote]



John, I too think this guy is a sick individual and this is just the beggining of a new round for psycho profilers, but I don't think you can break it down into the "real issue" of gun control or the internal contradictions of capitalism.

Both guns he used were purchased legally, and the knee jerk reaction, as it was after the JFK assassination, is to regulate guns, when really, the proper reaction is to solve the crime so it won't happen again.

Instead of identifying the MO of Dealey Plaza as a covert intelligence operation connected with US Cuban ops, they blamed the "lone nut" Oswald and banned the mail order of guns.

What I mean by looking at this as a case study is to see how the law enforcement, media and other officials react to this crime, and see how we can learn from it to solve or prevent similar crimes.

Not blame gun control and capitalism.

There was a political assassination this week in Japan, a country that has no legal handguns, and as for the Sweden, wasn't there a political assassination there by a guy who used a .38 and got away with it?

BK

There are those calling for the heads of the university president and police chief for their "incompetence" in this tragedy.

Around 3,000 people died on 9/11, and one of the many unanswered questions is why not a single person is known to have been fired, demoted, or reprimanded for the blanket government incompetence of that day. Some of those involved got promotions, the only person fired (Sibel Edmonds) being a whistleblower.

But by all means let's crucify some officials at Virginia Tech.

Hello John Simkin

It absolutely astonished me, but you stated in your immediately prior post that "...the right of people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Clearly this reflects a time when people were concerned with the possible tyranny of the federal government. Is that still true today."

I cannot imagine you being in your position on this forum and stating ".....Is that still true today"
What do you think that we are referring to when we speak of an 11/22/63 Coup d' Etat? Or our often reference that the current Bush Administration is bleeding away our rights ? That the CIA is unmanaageable ? That the last election results were contested because of reported and proven improprieties?

Yes John ! We still fear tyranny of any sort.

If a majority of our 1776 revolutionaries, were not armed, we would still be a part of the "British Empire".

It was not only because of the threat of red indians or wild animals that these 1776ers bore arms. It was also against a repeated threat of tyranny.

Actually the meaning of to "keep and BEAR arms", means that citizens may be "accompanied by a gun" whenever they so choose.

I knew John, that you and a few others, would attempt to turn this thread into a gun control debate, as I stated in my post #35.

I would like to state that the great portion of my life was lived within the United States. I have been to all of the "big crime ridden cities" and never once have I or any of my family been physically threatened by ANYONE ! That is why I find it not only amazing, but preposterous that so many UK visitors are singled out and attacked.

Our southern neighbor, Mexico, banned handguns !

Would you like to walk down some dark, suburban Mexican Streets alone ?

The Mexican gun prohibition has prohibited only the citizenry from protecting themselves. There are still Banditos throughout Central America. There are certainly some areas of some American cities that one would not want to enter with a dozen guns. But this is mostly the result of gang and ethnic wars. Since you, I and everyone knows that guns cannot be kept out of the hands of criminals, why should I be stupid enough, or not care enough about the safety of my family, to give up my guns,
while knowing that the criminal element has not and never will ? I was long ago taught, "do not go to a gunfight armed only with a knife". I think that is sound reasoning !

Although there is a much greater chance that one of us is killed in an auto accident, by drowning, or some other means, than there is that we will be killed by a "bad guy", I can take steps to protect myself and my family against the bad guy, so why should I be denied this?

Charlie Black

I still can't figure out what this has to do with who killed JFK. I carry mutliple handguns daily based on 20yrs in Detroit AND my perfect knowledge that evil abounds

This is one of those areas where a huge gap exists in the conciousness of Europe, and America. Over the past two months six young men have been murdered, by knifing or gunshot in London. These six murders were headline news for days, and have sparked a huge debate about controlling illegal weapons bringing a lot of pressure on the Government for further tough legislation in this area. In the middle 70s I lived for eighteen months in Grosse point woods, a suburb of Detroit, six murders in two months would have been a reason to celebrate, as it would have represented a massive fall in gun related crime. Different strokes for different folks?

Stephen

I quote you "differences of opinion are very tiresome and proof that the educational sytem has failed everyone except yourself."

Why are you attempting in your feeble way to attack me?

How can ANY human being, particularly a member of this forum, state that "differences of opinion are very tiresome." You would not HAVE a forum if there were no differences of opinion"!

I think that I can say, without a doubt, this statement of yours is better than me writing a thousand words.

By the way, what educational system spawned you ?

Will they admit it ?

Charlie Black

WHAT????????? Charles, Please believe me when I say that when I added that semi, self mocking pun to my posts you were the very last thing on my poor old mind. I was "spawned" by the British secondary Modern system, as to whether they would admit to this crime I doubt it, I wouldnt if I were in their shoes. I meant no insult to you or anybody else by my observations, but if I have given offence please accept my fulsome apologies. Steve.

This particular shooter seems to be motivated by mental illness. The violent crime you witness in urban areas of the US are largely related to poverty, despair, anger and lack of education. Of those, I believe anger is the strongest motivator.

Men, especially those under 25, do not do well when they feel helpless.

You see young men killing over what they perceive is an antagonistic look from someone else. They shoot over "turf" which they themselves do not actually own. They kill for pride yet they exhibit extreme self-loathing. They father children whom they don't parent yet they claim perverse allegiance to a makeshift family of sorts. They claim to live by a code of honor yet they steal from innocent victims.

There is a serious problem with violence in the US - but it is important to remember who is committing the violence and jacking up the numbers - disaffected men under 25.