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Pat Speer

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  1. Pat Speer

    Givens down to one lie

    Geez Louise, David. You completely forgot about a key point in my original post. Shanklin's memo specifies that Givens never left the first floor before leaving the building. This is yet another nail in the coffin for the story Givens told about seeing Oswald on the sixth floor when he went back up for cigarettes. It never happened. The HSCA, to its credit, rejected Givens' story by claiming it was beside the point. They were right. Even if Oswald had traveled downstairs for lunch, there's no proof he didn't race back up just before the shots were fired. What's intriguing about this, however, is your response. Why do you so desperately want to believe Givens? Because if you acknowledge his story smells to high heaven, you'd have to acknowledge Belin knowingly pushed a smelly story on the public? And that might lead you to believe the whole WR is a similarly smelly story? Your side lost the Battle of Givens decades ago,. Move on to fight another day.
  2. It was the timing in the Z-film. The single-bullet theory was conjured up by Specter and Redlich, etc over the months of March and April, and was "tested" on May 24. Tague read an article about the presumed conclusions arrived at from this re-enactment, and realized there was no accounting for his wound. He then contacted the Dallas-Times-Herald. An article on his wounding was published 6-5-64. He was then and only then called to testify, which he did on 7-23-64. This was, to be clear, months after Specter first submitted his chapter on the shooting, and explained the single-bullet theory to Warren. Specter and/or Redlich then re-wrote Specter's chapter to include references to Tague and Willis, etc--witnesses who'd testified long after Specter's conclusions had been certified by the commission. I added a few paragraphs to chapter 3c at patspeer.com a few months back, which you may find of interest. From chapter 3c at patspeer.com: The year 2013 marked the 50th anniversary of the assassination. Two books on the Warren Commission--one by New York Times reporter Philip Shenon and one by Warren Commission attorney Howard Willens--were pushed upon the public. Although Shenon's book held out that Oswald may have been put in motion by some Cubans he met in Mexico, both were essentially Oswald-did-it books. Still, the release of these books exposed some startling facts...that only added to what we'd already come to know... As a compliment to Willens' book, he released a number of documents, some of which have been previously discussed. One document which we have not discussed, however, is a memo created by Willens, in which he reported the number of days worked by the key members of the commission's staff. Here, then, is a re-listing of these key employees, along with the number of days they worked, according to Willens. Area 1: Francis Adams (16 days, 5 hours) and Arlen Specter (145 days, 5 hours) were charged with establishing the "basic facts of the assassination." (162 days, 2 hours) Area 2: Joseph Ball (91 days) and David Belin (125 days) are charged with establishing the "identity of the assassin." (216 days) Area 3: Albert Jenner (203 days) and J. Wesley Liebeler (219 days, 4 hours) were charged with establishing "Oswald's background." (422 days, 4 hours) Area 4: William Coleman (64 days) and W. David Slawson (211 days) were charged with investigating "possible conspiratorial relationships." They were thus tasked with investigating Oswald's actions in Russia and Mexico. (275 days) Area 5: Leon Hubert (115 days, 5 hours) and Burt Griffin (225 days, 4 hours) were charged with investigating "Oswald's death," and establishing both whether Ruby knew Oswald, and if Ruby had help in killing Oswald. (341 days, 1 hour) Area 6: Samuel Stern was charged with researching the history of Presidential protection, so that the commission could make appropriate recommendations. (149 days) Norman Redlich (186 days) was charged with supervising the investigations of all these areas, and with the subsequent writing of their report. His assistant--the man directly overseeing much of the investigation--was Melvin Eisenberg (167 days). And, of course, the whole she-bang was overseen by J. Lee Rankin (308 days) and Howard Willens (an approximate of 250 days). So, let's break this down. The Warren Commission's top staff (Rankin, Willens, Redlich, and Eisenberg) spent over 900 work-days supervising its investigation, co-ordinating its investigation with the commissioners, and editing and re-writing the commission's report. While, at the same time, the commission's investigators spent over 1,000 work-days investigating and writing about Oswald's life and death--separate from his role in the assassination. While, at the same time, the commission's investigators spent less than 400 work-days investigating what happened on the day of the shooting, and who pulled the trigger... Well, this seems a bit backwards, correct? When one looks at the timing of these man-hours, this ratio seems even more out-of-whack. The investigation lasted, basically, 8 months, from late January to late September. Adams, Specter, Ball, and Belin (the investigators for Areas 1 and 2) worked 378 days, 2 hours, between them. But only 73 days, 1 hour of this was in the last three months of the commission's investigation. Well, this suggests that the commission's investigation into what happened and who did it was essentially over by June, and not September. And that the rest was just putting lipstick on a pig. I mean, seriously, Burt Griffin worked 91 of the last 96 days trying to understand why and how mobster wannabe Jack Ruby came to kill the supposedly lone-nut Oswald, and David Slawson worked 83 of the last 96 days trying to understand what the supposedly lone-nut Oswald was doing in Mexico City, meeting with Cubans and Russians. And that's not even to mention that Albert Jenner and Wesley Liebeler worked 81 days and 90 days, respectively, of the last 96 days of the commission, while trying to understand why in the heck Oswald would kill a President he claimed to admire. All four of these men, individually, worked more days in the last three months of the commission's investigation than the four men who'd worked in areas 1 and 2, COMBINED. Well, this supports what seemed clear from the beginning of the commission's investigation--that the commission was ready to claim Oswald did it without doing much digging, but was concerned this wouldn't fly if they didn't offer the public a mountain of reasons to believe Oswald was nothing but a nut, who acted alone.
  3. Hey, Mike. I can't recall if it was ever tracked down as to who cemented over the curb cut, and why. But what I do know is this.... The FBI didn't hide Tague from the WC. They interviewed him and passed their interview on to the WC. It was the WC staff then who failed to interview him, and tried to pretend he didn't exist. And they would have done just that, if not for an inconvenient article in the paper. From patspeer.com, chapter 3b: On 6-29-64, the Warren Commission meets and deliberates over the submitted chapters of its report. (Intriguingly, few were aware of this meeting until 1997, when General Counsel J. Lee Rankin’s private papers were donated to the National Archives following the JFK Records Act. Rankin’s notes reveal that this meeting consists of his running down a list of questions, and the Commissioners’ deciding whether the proposed chapters adequately answer these questions. Over and over, on the questions of the number of the shots, the order in which the wounds were inflicted, etc, they answer “Treatment in proposed draft satisfactory.” This suggests that by May 29, when Rankin first forwarded Specter's chapter on to the commissioners, the commission's conclusions were written in stone, and that the subsequent testimony of crucial witnesses such as Jacqueline Kennedy, James Altgens, Phil Willis, Abraham Zapruder, Emmett Hudson, and James Tague was taken entirely for political reasons, i.e., to convince the American people that the words of all the prominent witnesses had been considered by the commission before they'd come to a conclusion, when in fact they had not.) P.S. Tague testified on 7-23-64, almost 2 months after Specter first submitted his chapter on the number and timing of the shots.
  4. I got into all this years ago with Purvis, David. He kept insisting that the evil WC moved the shots because they didn't realize Connally was hit after the head shot, or some such thing. He didn't realize-- because he developed his theory decades before and had never got around to reading the docs on the MFFwebsite--that the FBI and SS (who Purvis desperately wanted to believed were truth-tellers) had concluded the head shot was the third shot, and that Kennedy was struck in the head 10 yards or so further down the road than is easily understood by watching the films. Apparently, it never occurred to him that the locations of the shots were being developed by a different crew than was developing the timing of the Z-film, and that, as a result, those determining the locations of the shots were under intense pressure to lie about the locations, that is, to make sure they didn't align with a segment of film too short to support the single-assassin conclusion. So...voila...the FBI and SS both pretended the head shot was down by the steps. This all went down in December. The reports were given to the WC in January. When the WC viewed the films for themselves, however, they realized they'd been fed a bunch of baloney. This, then, led to the May 24 re-enactment.
  5. Here's my recollection. The city filled in the impact location, almost certainly without any knowledge of its significance. Tague was ignored by the Warren Commission until after its lawyers had written their conclusions. He then contacted a journalist, and got his story in the local press. This led to an FBI investigation and the realization there was lead on the curb, but not copper. This didn't actually alter the WC's conclusions. The timing of the shots in the Z-film had led them to adopt the singe-bullet theory. This left them with a missed shot. They simply said "well this missed shot hit the curb and the curb hit Tague." They said as well that the first shot could have been the one that missed. This ignored, of course, that no copper was found on the curb, and that Tague felt certain the shot that hit the curb was not the first shot. Their treatment of Tague led him to research the case, and befriend Harold Weisberg, and in time became one of the commission's strongest critics.
  6. Pat Speer

    Fire Me?

    It's been awhile but at one point I read a great deal about the BOP screw-up, and who was responsible. And it comes down to this: the CIA botched it and tried to blame it on Kennedy. Kennedy told the CIA the BOP invasion could not point to the U.S., and screw up JFK's hopes for better relations with Latin America. They said OK boss, but secretly figured he'd bail them out if the invasion failed--which they knew was quite likely. Then came the invasion, and the landing in Florida of a phony plane supposedly flown from Cuba but actually flown by one of the exiles. This plane was supposed to sell the world that Cuban pilots were rebelling against Castro. But Adlai Stevenson figured out what was up and told JFK he didn't want to lie to the U.N. and say this wasn't a hoax. So someone--I recall it as being Rusk--told the CIA to cancel U.S. support for the next day's attack on the Cuban Air Force, which was to be performed by planes flown in from Guatemala. Now, here's the key that most ignore. Hunt and others flipped out about this and convinced Cabell to call Kennedy and get the support planes re-instated. So Cabell called but, according to Hunt, wilted and said no when Kennedy asked if these support planes were absolutely necessary. So the invasion proceeded without direct help from the U.S. military. And failed miserably. Now, here's the other key that most ignore. At this point JFK approved having American planes fly cover and protect the next wave of planes coming in from Guatemala. But someone (who was eventually named in a CIA Oral History with Jake Esterline) forgot to take into account time zones when planning this operation, and these planes arrived without cover, and were promptly shot down by the Cuban Air Force. Making matters worse, the surviving pilots from the first day's failure were reluctant to fly back to Cuba. As a result, the pilots in this second wave included several members of the Alabama Air National Guard, if I recall. So the role of the U.S. in the invasion became public knowledge anyway. Well, sort of. For several years the government told the world these men were mercenaries.
  7. My Tivo recorded a show I'd never even heard of called Timeless, presumably because it had a plot centered around the JFK assassination. I decided to speed through the show and see how it handled the question of conspiracy/no conspiracy. It didn't surprise. While the vast majority of MSM "news" shows continue to pretend there's a consensus Oswald acted alone, the vast majority of entertainment shows continue to suggest a conspiracy. In this instance, one of the characters warns a 17 year old JFK (who has temporarily been transported to the present) not to go to Dallas on 11-22-63. When this character returns to the present, he asks if it worked, and if JFK was able to serve a second term. To which one of the other characters, says no, of course not, he was assassinated in AUSTIN in 1963. While schlocky TV, this nevertheless underlines a point. Most Americans, IMO, continue to see JFK's death not as a quirk of history, but as an unavoidable step in the nation's progress. Unidentified "Forces" wanted JFK dead, pure and simple.
  8. Pat Speer

    live round in the chamber

    I may have just pieced that together myself. Baker and Truly saw him on the 4th floor as they descended. They were riding on the east elevator, which Sawyer could not have called back to the 4th. The west elevator was up on the 5th.with Dougherty. It seems clear, then, that Sawyer either raced back to the front elevator, or ran down the back stairs. I suspect the latter, based in part on his stating he came back "downstairs". Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to? Mr. SAWYER. That's right. Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there? Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me. Mr. BELIN. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there into a warehouse area? Mr. SAWYER. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area. Mr. BELIN. Did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage area? Mr. SAWYER. No. Mr. BELIN. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area there? Mr. SAWYER. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers. Mr. BELIN. Now Inspector, what did you do then? Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.
  9. Pat Speer

    John Newman on Antonio Veciana

    I spoke to John Newman about this at both conferences mentioned in his post. And I think John is right to say people should be wary of witnesses whose stories change, but that he is wrong in thinking we should throw Veciana's story out because his story changed. Fonzi accepted Veciana's story because the Bishop in his story ran a near parallel existence to Phillips' real life. He also observed that Phillips' own behavior suggested he was trying to hide something. Those facts don't disappear because Veciana changed his story (or corrected his story, take your pick) over the years. There's also this. While some have tried to portray Veciana's recent activities as an attempt to cash in and/or smear the CIA for what he viewed as a betrayal, this doesn't wash when you examine the steps leading to Veciana writing a book. As of 2013, he had no intention of writing a book. He was urged to come forward, however, by Marie Fonzi and his own son. He then acknowledged Bishop was Phillips and that he'd known it all along. He then came to Bethesda and both claimed Bishop was Phillips and defended the CIA. That's right. Veciana came to a prominent JFK assassination conference and spent a big chunk of his time defending the CIA. So, no, he's not some sour grapes guy trying to cash in. So what's left? Could he be, gulp, someone who lived a life without writing everything down, who has trouble remembering exactly what happened? God forbid such a person should exist on our planet, where everyone remembers everything exactly as it happened.
  10. Pat Speer

    live round in the chamber

    When I re-read all this stuff last year, I made a list of all the unidentified officers observed in the building, as well as the names of officers who were in the building but never made a statement. There were something like 6 references to unnamed officers, and 5 named officers who never made a statement. In short, the assassin or assassins could have escaped without problem should they have been police officers, or disguised as police officers. As far as Mooney, I'm pretty sure the men he saw were Inspector Sawyer and another unnamed DPD officer, who took the front elevator up to the fourth floor, ran to the back of the building, saw Baker and Truly as they came down on the east elevator, and then ran back down the stairs and out the front in order to close off the building.
  11. Pat Speer

    How Many Shells were found at the Scene?

    I spent a lot of time on this one and concluded the official story on this one is correct. The fire truck out the window in the shell casing photos proves the evidence photos were taken shortly after the shooting, and not that evening or the next day. And the boxes match the positions of the boxes in the Alyea film, taken before the arrival of Day and Studebaker. So, yeah, the photos taken by Day and Studebaker appear to be legit, which is as expected when one considers that all the early witnesses said they saw three shells. My one concern is that Alyea claimed Fritz picked up the shells, and his film does in my opinion show Fritz kneel down and pick up the third western-most shell. Well, this opens up the possibility Fritz took this shell with him, and that the third shell in the Day and Studebaker photos was a throw-down, of sorts. I spent a lot of time looking at this third shell and comparing it to various kinds of shells and could never convince myself it matched the other shells. But neither could I convince myself it did not match.
  12. Pat Speer

    live round in the chamber

    Fritz's comment about letting Day dust first was a reference to his letting Day dust the bolt to make sure there were no prints on it (the bolt, not the live round) before he ejected the live round. FWIW, I've read quite a bit on this topic over the last 2 years. And there are a number of presumptions on this matter that are incorrect. One surprising fact is that very few shell casings reveal verifiable fingerprints. A lot of the older books note that shell casings for fired rounds rarely show prints, but recent studies have shown that live rounds found at crime scenes also rarely reveal a print. It's something like one in a thousand. The small size of the surface area is a factor, as is the likelihood of smudging. And that brings me to another surprise. Although TV shows and movies always have the crime scene guys flipping out over a found weapon, and finding prints on the weapon, unless it was wiped down, this is a fantasy. The reality is that less than 10% of recovered weapons reveal an identifiable print, and that crime scene analysts focus instead on things like window panes and door knobs--places where the perp may have left a print without thinking. One of the great myths about this case, btw, is that Oswald (or anyone) wiped down the rifle. The supposedly smudged prints on the left trigger guard were not actually smudged, and could presumably have been matched to Oswald, should they have been his prints. That they were not makes me suspect they were not his prints. But there's another possibility. That Oswald--who was supposedly careful to avoid being seen with the bag on the way home on the 21st, and bringing the rifle into the building--would not have wiped down the rifle he was supposedly hiding and would later claim was not his, beggars belief. It suggests either that he did not fire the rifle, or that he did, and the DPD tried to frame him by putting his prints on the rifle, only to have the FBI shoot them down because they were afraid the prints would not survive a trial. Something like that....
  13. Pat Speer

    The Future of the Education Forum

    I should have been more clear in my post. The current make-up of this forum is about as civil a group as I have seen. A few people have been rude to each other. I suspect they all will get over it. The level of nastiness is currently a 3 on a scale of 1 to 10, IMO. This forum has at times been as high as a 7, I would say. Other forums on which I've posted, the JFK assassination forum, all.assassination.jfk, alt.conspiracy.jfk, JFKfacts, the IMDB discussion forum for the film JFK, and numerous discussions on Amazon and youtube, have ranged between 5 and 10. There was at one time a character on alt.assassination.jfk, who used to send me emails telling me that my family was destined to burn in hell. There was another guy on youtube who was always trying to get me out in the hills so he could show me what a good shot he was, which my family took as a threat. In sum, then, the bad behavior currently on this forum is minor in comparison to what we've seen on this forum in the past, and what I've seen elsewhere. P.S. McAdams was never a member of this forum.
  14. Pat Speer

    The Future of the Education Forum

    As a long-time member, and an occasional participant in other forums. it's clear to me that this forum remains the most civil forum on the assassination, in which a multitude of views are presented. Many of the other forums have given up, and are little more than excuses for people to yell at each other. Long may it run.
  15. A strange thing happened at the 2013 Wecht Conference; Josiah Thompson and Robert Groden, appearing one after the other, offered up the same "new" theory regarding the shooting. And this was that Kennedy was hit twice in the head within a second or so, with the first shot impacting at Z-313. So....Thompson's recent change is still in line with the bang-bang heard by the witnesses. The second head shot (which I believe he says came from behind) just came in a bit later than he'd previously believed.
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