David Josephs

Nice try Robin... "he ain't gona learn what he don't wanna know" Mr. ZAPRUDER - I heard the second--after the first shot--I saw him leaning over and after the second shot--it's possible after what I saw, you know, then I started yelling, "They killed him, they killed him," and I just felt that somebody had ganged up on him and I was still shooting the pictures until he got under the underpass--I don't even know how I did it. And then, I didn't even remember how I got down from that abutment there, but there I was, I guess, Are there any images of either Zappy or Sitzman getting up on or down from this 4 foot pedastal? - so we can prove to him he was even up there to begin with? The images I have of him on the pedestal are not exactly convincing Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, of course, what I saw you have on film, but that was the day, November 22, it was around 11:30. In fact, I didn't have my camera but my secretary asked me why I don't have it and I told her I wouldn't have a chance even to see the President and somehow she urged me and I went home and got my camera and came back and first I thought I might take pictures from the window because my building is right next to the building where the alleged assassin was, and it's just across--501 Elm Street (Dal-Tex), but I figured--I may go down and get better pictures, and I walked down. I believe it was Elm Street and on down to the lower part, closer to the underpass and I was trying to pick a space from where to take those pictures and I tried one place and it was on a narrow ledge and I couldn't balance myself very much. I tried another place and that had some obstruction of signs or whatever it was there and finally I found a place farther down near the underpass that was a square of concrete I don't know what you call it maybe about 4 feet high. So I am also wondering where these two other locations are - between Dal-Tex and the overpass... - NARROW LEDGE? Couldn't balance there and I guess no room for Sitzman? so he chooses an even more precarious spot.... - SOME OBSTRUCTION OF SIGNS? Seems he would be walking west along the North side of Houston... the planter box has a narrow ledge... That first eastern most pedastal seems to be a good spot... SIGNS? Where do you think he was referring or was he just covering tracks since he was not really there... Peace DJ

You're right Greg... it appears he was seen by a variety of doctors... I saw what looked like an "H" and the previous initials are "WH"... but a closer look shows it's just dated 11/3, the day AFTER Oswald leaves Japan. I have all the H&L documents in a local flash drive... I don't need to go look for them... Your comment was unnecessary... and the cult/devotee bullsh!t ought to end, at least if we're going to discuss this as adults. The October 6th Unit Diary shows LEE OSWALD returning from Ping-Tung YOU have him staying behind to receive treatment for STD as a result of a DoD response to a Blakey inquiry. So once again.. the Marines are inable to determine who boards a ship and who doesn't? You want us to believe that when departing from Taiwan back to Japan the US MARINES did not check to see if who they said was on the ship, actually got on the ship? On Oct 6, 1958 do you suppose the MARINES were already falsifying documents for the CIA to show that a soldier was not where he was said to be, and when corrected, the US MARINES still have him returning from a place you say he never went.... ?? He was not crossed off the Unit Diary... it was never updated for his "remaining behind" so all we have is this letter from the DoD saying so in response to a Blakey inquiry William Trail states in one of theose FBI reports you put so much stock in, that he was in Taiwan with Oswald... that he was his difficult self and didn't get along with the other men (HARVEY that is) but you know all that right Greg? You have these docs memorized... How did you put it? "Why do I get the impression you've never actually seen this document"? http://www.maryferre...510&relPageId=9 So basically you come at me with a sentence from a DoD response to Blakey as your definitive proof that Oswald remained in Atsugi - since the medical records OBVIOUSLY show a L.H. Oswald receiving treatment for STD in Japan... What I offer are US MARINES documents that state Oswald served in Japan and Taiwan as a "aviation electronics operator"... That he was on the ship that took him to Taiwan That he was on the ship that brought him back and that during this stay the records indicate a LEE Oswald rec'd STD medical treatment... YOU want to hang your hat on a DoD letter basically stating all this was a big MISTAKE... that's one helluva weak argument Greg... btw - you keep referring to the 7 students who attended Beauregard in 54-55 with Oswald... when our discussion is about the 53-54 school year... there is no doubt about 54-55... When we have a report card for both PS44 and Beauregard.. in the 53-54 school year records for Beauregard it shows attendance for 179 total days... the transcript also shows him taking only 2-3 classes for the FIRST SEMESTER (9/53 - 1/54) and attending 89 days of school with 1 absence from 1/54-6/54 he attended school 90 days with 4 absences Yet the PS44 records show him in NYC from 9/53 thru 1/54... If he didnt start at Beauregard until 1-13-54... how does he attend school for the entire 179 day school year when the SAME RECORD has him attending 168 days in the 54-55 year? Let's keep this civil Greg... I am NOT a cultist... there are obviously conflicting records and statements in many areas of this case... You have problems with the McBride statements... I have concerns with Robert Oswald, Marina Oswald, Marguerite Oswald and what John Pic all say about our LEE/HARVEY, where he was, when he was and who he was.... That you continue to ignore the obvious physical differences described by witnesses along with the drastic ideological changes... AND the fact we cannot get an accurate height on HARVEY after 1958, nor do we see any images of LEE after 1958 with his mouth open showing his teeth bleeds right into this scenario being true... To conclude, I respect your opinion and your attempt at substantiation of this info... but I feel that a DoD letter stating something to be true when all the records indicate otherwise is not sufficient to superceded the existing records. DJ

Okay again Mikey/Ringo/Rango whatever... Don't like the way you got beat up about CE399 we see.... ? This is the BS I posted about before... a link to a DVP post about a letter that has nothing to do with the men PRIOR to Rowley.. We realize it's way above your head and too confusing for you to articulate a reponse that addresses the evidence I put forth about CE399 not being in Dallas That you can copy and paste a link (masterfully done) has no relationship to your complete inability to UNDERSTAND what you linked to... Follow CE399 BACK from Frasier to Todd to Rowley to Johnson to Wright to Tomlinson... where does the INITIALS TRAIL end? Take your time, we're not going anywhere

Yes Mikey... we've ALL had enough of your self proclaimed expertise and your inablility to find your A$$ with both hands The Zfilm ends at z486... z486 - z313 = 173 frames / 18.3fps = 9.45 seconds... (divide by 16 and we get almost 11 seconds if we believe the B&H manual) AFTER 313 Zapruder was still filming... You are so far out of your league here Mikey it's comical. Crawl back under whatever random name generating rock you came from, whatever-your-name-is... cause there ain't NOBODY buying what you keep trying to sell here.

So the idea of something "sinister" occurring in the west pergola almost a minute AFTER the shots seems to completely disregard the number of people who went to that area after the limo left. What exactly do you find sinister about what appears to be a woman - possibly Sitzman and a couple of other people milling around the pergola? I'd also ask you to look at the BOND series of photos... Bond 4 shows a woman in a black coat moving toward the pergola with people already there... this is also within 60 seconds as the bus hasn't come by yet. No one has "ignored" the photo... and to push that assumption here is amazingly disrespectful to the years of research many of us have put into this case... You remind me of the four blind men all touching a different part of an elephant and proclaiming what they have in front of them without reservation... You are trying to tell us the image of a 1000 piece puzzle after only looking at 45 pieces... 40 of which are turned over and only show the cardboard back... but they do suggest a shape that might fit somewhere.. Mike... If you've come here for answers - and dude THIS IS THE PLACE FOR ANSWERS - if you'd just look, and read, and ask questions of probably the greatest collection of JFK researchers/authors available - you MAY get answers... insulting them is not going to cut it - no matter WHO you think you are compared to the people here. You don't have to ac ept their theories - but please know that in the process of investigating one area of this crime... ALL the areas seem to show up. . I read the threads here for 5 years before I felt I had something to contribute. I keep gigs and gigs of "data" on a flash drive so I can access the source material without going to look for it on line... and if I don't have it I go find it and save it for next time I'm all for believing in yourself and your conclusions - and defending them the best you know how... but when repeatedly asked for YOUR SUPPORTING EVIDENCE, offering a link to someone else's work is not what we mean... Pull out what you mean... highlight it so we know what you are referring to.... and develop a conclusion based on this evidence... as you have read, I too stick to my guns in the face of rebuttal... and I will admit I am wrong when shown. By your own estimates of the timeframe - do you now see how there is nothing sinister about the west pergola 1 minute after the shots.... But if you can prove that Emmett Hudson saw people in the pergola as he walked to the steps - cool (did you know that he walked right past there? do you know who I am referring to?) Or anyone else for that matter seeing anything "sinister" in that area prior to the shots.... Your shotgun approach is interesting but from 165 feet away and from the SE window... a shotgun aint gonna hit anything but air... If you took a scoped rifle instead.. and aimed at something... I bet even you will eventually hit something Peace DJ

So just above that white wall we see someone rising from the ground... Compare this with the photos posted to see where poeple are positioned and you can start to get a better timeline Altgens 8 - each couple is together the color gif from Bell from Chris D comes later and I believe this gif shows Hester getting upand walking as we pick him up in Bell and Zap/Sitz are blocked by the sign and tree - but we can see they are not on the pedastal or moving off at this time... DJ

I think we need to time stamp these images... The gif seems to imply that Abe just ran off and Hester moves away... yet Altgens 8 shows them together.. both the Hesters and Abe/Marilyn Is there enough time for Hester to jump up and start moving away while Sitzman veers off to the left? So I found this gif that I separated into frames to show that Altgens 8 must have been VERY SOON after Altgens 7... and BEFORE the color gif showing Zap going toward Mrs. H. and that Mr. Hester seems to get up and move away from Mrs Hester - the red arrows... It does appear from this image that there are a number of people in the WEST pergola looking into the RR yard and parking lot... Mike.. ALOT of people went to that area after the shots... The image you posted first also needs a time stamp... but obviously occurs well after the limo leaves the scene... Do you have any evidence/testimony that places movement in that area prior to the shots? Sitzman picks out the black couple to her right.. Could there be someone in there? - sure... but what is to accomplish from that location other than to see into the RR yard - AFTER the shots are fired - which is when the image you posted was exposed? DJ (edit note: in the gif it is plain to see the black image rise... I will put the gif in the next post...)

Let's see October 18, 1939... I was thinking 1938.... and I did not miss your first post Greg... fertile minds = you way of saying they were made up... some sightings were, some weren't... to say there were no other people looking like Oswald and using his name would be incorrectly stating the evidence. mistaken identity = again, bottom line, you have PEOPLE making mistakes supported by unsigned, uncorroborated FBI accounts deliberate impersonation = events that only happen outside the US and definitely NOT in TX... Cause the CIA does not operate on american soil - right? Cause impersonating him in Mexico only makes sense if you DO NOT impersonate him anywhere else... C'mon Greg... don't tell me you are not using anything but FBI reports... most every one of these is FBI and while discussin 1953/54 you post 1954/55 links... uh, ok. Below are the Unit Diaries... as well as a page from the man's health records U.D.: "was in Ping Tung, N Taiwan 30 September 1958" "returned to Atsugi Japan 5 October 1958" - we can see from the medical records that he is checked on the 20th 22nd and 29th... the 6th and 24th of October AND AGAIN on Nov 3rd! - didn't you say that this might be cover for a training mission...? Except A boat sales from Japan with an Oswald on it Nov 2nd.... Now the next block... shows Oswald "sick at Atsugi Hospital from 7 October 1958 to 13 October 1958".... while the Blakey documents say hospitalization from Oct 7 thru Oct 15... And the other Oswald is seen on Oct 6th with "SEVERE HEAVY DISCHARGE due to heavy lifting" which is one week after the Sept 29th visit in which he was markedly improved... and then the unit diary tells us LEE is in the hospital from the 7th to the 13th... yet there is no record of his being treated for anything in his medical record. Greg, with HARVEY returning from Taiwan...LEE had to be moved. On Nov 2 HARVEY leaves Japan On Nov 3, LEE is once again seen at the Atsugi Hospital... wonder why there are no records of his being in that hospital from the 7th to the 15th? And according to the records below...10/6/58 thru 12/22/58 he does not seem to have left Japan yet.... isn't MAG II and 1st MAW in Japan? yet the Diary has him leaving Nov 2 ?? The HSCA finds that on Nov 2 Oswald leaves Japan... that the WCR did not have access to MAGII... yet the medical pages show that Oswald had "cocci noted!" on Oct 24th with a note to return in 5 days. Instead we have a note by the same Dr on 11/3... According to Armstrong... Sept/Oct/Nov 1958 is when the switch occurs... when HARVEY returns from Taiwan and becomes LEE, we find that from Nov 2 on, our Mr Oswald no longer has any hemorroids or STD problems... and is returned to CA while LEE remains at the U-2/CIA base at Atsugi Japan. Greg, if you want to keep chalking all this up to MISTAKES in the record and MISTAKES in the testimonies and memories - you're of course entitled to whatever you'd like to think. When you are not linking to WE SAID HE SAID FBI reports you link to the HSCA conclusions or report... another paragon of quality evidence... These are the docs Greg, THESE are what Armstrong used to find the discrepencies in the military records. Not what the FBI said the witnesses said, or what Blakey says the DoD said. When combined with the civilian evidence there is a strong indication of two people merged into one history to create the little commie that became LHO. I'm sorry but I do not put faith into the documents you used to support your argument... the FBI tells us there were only 3 shots and 2 hits... the FBI will only remain a window into the conspiracy... That you would choose to use these FBI reports as the defense for your rebuttals is quite a surprise... unless you have something to corroborate them? I'm done with this now Greg... we are at an impass and I respect your postings too much to continue just disagreeing. Arguments that are based in "everything offered against the truth must be a MISTAKE" is a LNer tactic and is simply beneath you imo... fast forward a little while and this red-blooded american is now a defecting, Russian speaking communist/marxist... that's quite the transition. Peace DJ

Thanks Greg... Cults? Zealots? Jihadists? Should we talk you back from the ledge? Seems to us that you are the only one promoting a SINGLE MEANING for each of these instances and will not hear anything more about any of the possibilities.... So now he DIDN'T GO to Taiwan because a FBI document says so? WHEN did we begin taking FBI photocopies of documents, without original records to authenticate them, as examples of believeable evidence in this case Greg... I must have missed the memo.... Uncoroborrated FBI reports... seems we used a whole bunch of those to discredit the WCR since so many of these were simply made up out of thin air or altered to convey the exact OPPOSITE of what was said... yet you feel warranted in using them as definitive authentication that Armstrong is wrong.? And that every Oswald sighting is without warrant? (too many here to list yet how about we forget about the "sightings" and concentrate on the evidence being used. As we lilke to say... you're the one useing the evidence - you be the one to authenticate it - All I see is you accepting the FBI reports at face value... as opposed to actually looking at Armstrong's evidence BEFORE you post... I went back and reread the entire thread.... YOU seem to be saying that every sighting was not Oswald while you think our position is that every one was... we had a discussion about the Jiffy Mart Oswald... you like to say it was just some young kid and the clerk was doing his 15 mins of fame routine... that is ONE POSSIBILITY... so is the possibility that it was someone looking alot like Oswald and using ID that said so. You asked Kathy about the Mastoid and then go on to state fact - that you got from the FBI reports of his timeline ....... if you have somethng that shows he was said to have the mastoidectomy while being seen in Minsk - that is not an FBI documentbut an original Russian document after his "physical"... please post it... in the mean time it's just the same... the FBI said so. In 1946 this record would indicate that this Oswald was 7 years and 4 months old... not 5. Not everything you write is just off the top of your head Greg... but in this thread you seem not to have checked much of anything first... Do you have any other coroborration? or is it just more of the FBI telling us what THEIR OSWALD's history is. Same as the evidence for this mastoidectomy in Family Court, the Marines and Minsk? All FBI uncoroborrated documents? I looked at the links for the January story... FBI SAID January said... FBI SAID that January concluded, commented, reiterated.... but JANUARY did not read and sign this report as an accurate representation of what he said now did he? Was he called before the WC to tell his story or at least substantiate what was written that he said? Nope I'm not going to go item by item thru all your posts Greg... yet so much of what you have relied upon to refute Armstrong is either completely uncorobrrated FBI reports, the claim that it's all due to dyslexia/Aspergers, and that the Marine record is also incorrect. Like so many things that point to CIA involvement and the dead Harvey's innocence, they are simply mistakes made by fallible humans... except they NEVER EVER fall in Oswald's favor... The only mistakes ever made are if they point away from Harvey and directly to the CIA/SS/FBI... No Greg... the FBI/Gov't is the unimpeachible source of accurate evidence in this case... kinda sounds like a cultist in your belief, no? or just ask 1) Vincent Drain, 2) James Cadigan, and 3) Clint Hill cause THEY will help us understand the true nature of the Gov't's investigation... 1) the evidence has a clean Chain of Custody... 2) Mr. EISENBERG. Now, the document as we see it now exhibits extremely faint writing. Can you explain the reason for that? Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; this is due to treatment of the card for latent fingerprints by chemical process which bleaches and makes inks run. Mr. EISENBERG. Was the document treated to restore the original color after it had been treated for fingerprints? Mr. CADIGAN No; from looking at this, it has been desilvered, but it has not been completely desilvered since parts of the stains of the chemical treatment remain. Mr. EISENBERG. When you first saw the document and made your examination, was the document in its original condition, that is, had it been treated yet for fingerprints? Mr. CADIGAN. I never saw the original. Mr. EISENBERG. You never saw the original? Mr. CADIGAN. No; I had a Xerox copy of the original exhibit. I did not see this original exhibit. Mr. EISENBERG. You said before you had examined this exhibit? Mr. CADIGAN. To be more exact, I examined a Xerox copy of this exhibit. 3) Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital? Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head

Not abandoned... no need for all of us - or just me for that matter - to get in Steve's way.... and CULTISTS... really? ok, whatever - a rose by any other name.... Just like the WCR supporters you've gone to discrediting a person's memory as the lynchpin to unravelling everything that follows... There are REAL PEOPLE, with REAL MEMORIES of a Lee HARVEY and a LEE Harvey that do not match... in fact, the conflict with each other. Records are incomplete... Witnesses have FBI stories to tell that sound eerily similiar to others who had "evidence" removed during the investigation only to have PHOTCOPIES replacing Originals. The photos show two different people identified as one... If we are in a position as a CULT, to accept the horrific alteration of JFK's body between Dallas and DC - and at this point I find it virtually impossible to offer up a rebuttal to the evidence of Lifton and Horne that reconciles the wound at Parkland with the wound in DC - then we should be in a position to be open to most any possibility including the recruitment of Intelligence assets and the merging of a two lives to cover for one. Then, when we add the ongiong inconsistencies of Marina, MO, and Robert when recalling Oswald's life history... the obvious tampering with evidence related to his history and the GOVERNMENT DENYING anything of the sort - I'm inclined to take another look... So Greg... we see you are convinced of your position... so no more "and what abouts" in this thread... But I for one am not done... thanks for the great discussion DJ

I had always believed that those at the window would still be at the window during Dillard since it was so soon after the shots... Dillard was a few seconds to 20-30 seconds after the last shots? Jarman/Williams/Norman are still at the windows.... there are people standing at the 4th floor window 4 & 6 sets of windows from the East and a man on the 3rd floor 2nd window from East While this may not place the timing exactly - it definitely shows that Ms Adams, Styles, Dorman and Garner were gone from the window by Dillard's photo Please also remember Sawyer's trip to the 4th floor a few minutes later... with two DPD men... only to return a couple minutes later without the two men. Part of the concentration on Oswald allowed a multitude of people to come and go from that building without any identification.. Infact, it seems the DPD went out of their way NOT to ID witnesses who provided the most important info.. Cheer DJ .

Doesn't the Coke come back into the picture with Baker recanting on the Coke story....? He tries to claim that Oswald did NOT have a Coke in order to cut down on the timing, right? Yet this flies in the face of Reid's testimony... Does he leave with the bottle in his hands? There's no Coke in the Bus story or the Cab story... I know others don't like the 2 Oswalds idea... but both being there, or in and around the area, at the same time would create some interesting post-assassination sighting stories... to help confuse things... It makes sense to have a few look alikes leaving in different directions... reduces the credibility of each individual story... One of those after thoughts... would have been interesting to have that Coke bottle and see if the prints matched the man they arrested at the theater.... DJ

It is all right there, recorded in the photographic record. A common trend for you and your followers is you do not use the photographic evidence. You should use it because it tells the story of what happened. If you would start to look at the photographic evidence as important evidence in this case and not fabricated by some unknown conspirators then maybe we can begin to have a meeting of the minds. Just as you want me to read Davids book I want you to invest some time in learning how to interpret the photographic evidence. It will not be a waste of time. I would like to share with you, if possible, a pretty good copy of the Moorman photo. There is a strange blackening out in the area of Kennedy's neck and upper back. The right shoulder looks quite suspicious as well. If you would like, I can send it to you. It was this copy which began to make me suspicious of photographic alteration. Let me know if you are intersted. I have tried making an electronic copy, but the contrasts are lost and the problem areas not easily discerned. Hey there Daniel... For me, it is this frame z323, which shows the extent of the "blackening out" ... no other "black" area on this print does what the BOH black square does... the back of his jacket, Jackie's hair... etc... Sure would like to see the 35mm Hollywood version... I've only read where it appeared to them that this and the other blackouts simply hovers over the film... that is extremely obvious.. Be nice to see those some day. Cheers DJ

Confirmation about Gloria: Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley? Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah. Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do? (again amazing how many times this man says the name Calvary and yet she is STILL not called) Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building. Ms. Calvary was NOT called to testify and the DPD was actually telling people to go BACK TO THE BUILDING - at approximately the same time the building is supposed to be secured... SHELLEY was Oswald's "supervisor" and if SHELLEY goes up with the police - would that be him going with SAWYER and the two other cops? (I know it says "his superintendent" as told by Holmes... but that COULD have been Shelley, no? Mr. BALL - Did you know Lee Oswald? Mr. SHELLEY - He worked for me. Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth floor, one of the elevators was not there? Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the time somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed stairwell. Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor? Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor. Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake. But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor. Mr. BELIN. You really don't know who was operating the elevator, then, is that correct? Mr. TRULY. That is correct. Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess? Mr. TRULY. My best guess is that Jack Dougherty was. Mr. BELIN. Now, after you got down from the seventh floor, you then went down to the sixth floor with Officer Baker? Mr. TRULY. Yes. Mr. BELIN. Did he look around on the sixth floor at all or not? Mr. TRULY. Just before we got on the elevator on the seventh floor, Officer Baker ran over and looked in a little room on the seventh floor, and glanced around on that floor, which is open, and it didn't take much of a search. And then we reached the sixth floor. I stopped. He glanced over the sixth floor quickly. Mr. BELIN. Could you see the southeast corner of the sixth floor from there? Mr. TRULY. I don't think so; no, sir. You could not. Mr. BELIN. Then what? Mr. TRULY. Then we continued on down, and we saw officers on the fourth floor. I don't recall that we stopped any more until we reached the first floor. But I do recall there was an officer on the fourth floor, by the time we got down that far. OK, so we have Dougherty going back to work within 2 minutes of the final shots This is either Sawyer or an uniformed person left on the 4th floor... with B&T coming back down we are looking at approx 12:36/7 This man with credentials in the building, on the 5th floor immediately after the shots, telling Mr. D here to go find Truly... (yet another unaccounted for person, in the building, moving between the 4th, 5th and 6th floors)... Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft? Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell. Mr. BALL - Or, did you see Mr. Truly? Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started looking for him, and by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gum and shells. Mr. BALL - Are you sure you were on the fifth floor when you heard the shots? Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, I'm positive. Mr. BALL - Did you see any other employee on the fifth floor? Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir; I didn't see nobody---there wasn't nobody on the fifth floor at all---it was just myself. So either we're going to start the "Men added to the windows in Powell and Dillard" thread (kidding) or Mr. D here just did not see them on the other side of the floor... he was only by the west elevator on the opposite side of the 5th floor. So not only do we have this "FBI" man talking to Dougherty, but our three black men say nothing of Dougherty or a "FBI" man. As JD leaves the 5th floor our three men encounter this FBI man? Mr. BALL. And Junior--that is Junior Jarman-were standing where they would have seen anyone coming down from the sixth floor by way of the stairs. Did you tell them that? Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not possibly have told him that, because you cannot see anything coming down from that position. Mr. BALL. And that you did not see anyone coming down. Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. An elephant could walk by there, and you could not see him. Mr. WILLIAMS. After we stood at the west window for a while, we decided to go down. Then we left. Mr. BALL. How did you go down? Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs. Mr. BALL. Where did you go? Mr. WILLIAMS. We went to the fourth floor first. Then we paused for a minute there, where we saw these women looking out of the window. Then we decided to go down to the first floor, and we ran on down. Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see there? Mr. McCLOY. How did you get to the first floor? Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs. Mr. DULLES. There were some people on the fourth floor? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember seeing maybe two or three women standing in the window, looking out the window. Mr. DULLES. Looking out the window? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Mr. McCLOY. Which stairway did they take, west or east? Mr. BALL. There was only one stairway, and that is the one in the corner. Did you run down stairs? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran. So if we are to believe this man... Vickie et al were still at the window MUCH LATER than they say... might not / COULD not have heard anyone moving on the stairs across the entire floor from them and would naturally have not run into Oswald, Baker or Truly as their activity happens earlier. Sorry if my post tries to take a number of different points and combine them into a picture to describe the scene in those first few minutes... This is why I;ve been working on a spreadsheet timeline that allows us to track time along one axis and people along the other... if/when I can get it done it will be my gift to the Forum - a searchable, minute by minute account that SHOULD expose inconsistencies in stories, timelines and activities. DJ

Hey there Sean... been pounding on the desk for a while about THAT MAN who Sawyer and his two buddies run into as they are going into the elevator.. we are not sure if this man is leaving the elevator or just in front of it, but it seems to suggest that this man is getting off the elevator... or... "this man" could be referring back to the man who he believed worked at the building... if this was Truly then the entire Baker/Truly episode is a charade... never happened, at least not as told. I mentioned in a different thread that Fritz, in his 3:15pm 11/22 interview notes wrote "claims 2nd floor Coke when off came in" and this can either be recorded at the time of the questioning or days later... If at the time, then we can see the development of the 2nd floor story as Greg's thread eludes to.... if later, then this is added in to lend credibility to the revised story... The most truthful of events appears to be Baker's affidavit yet how can Truly be talking with Sawyer unless it is AFTER he has gone up and come down with Baker... Sawyer is not back at the front of the TSBD until after 12:37... Baker and Truly went up to the 7th and back down by then... one would assume.. That Oswald would be on the first floor at 12:32 is no big stretch... as he was not above the 2nd floor after 11:50... Something I had not noticed before... yet I believe was mentioned in some of the parallel threads - the DPD and sheriff keep trying to claim that the building was closed off... no one leaving or entering when I think we see repeatedly that MANY employees of the TSBD we TOLD to return to the building by DPD. Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked. Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Mr. BALL - Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary Small door? Mr. LOVELADY - You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door. Mr. BALL - That is where you went in, that little door? Mr. LOVELADY - That's right. Mr. BALL - That would be the north end of the building? Mr. LOVELADY - That would be the west end, wouldn't it? Mr. BALL - Is it the one right off Houston Street? Mr. LOVELADY - No; you are thinking about another dock. Mr. BALL - I am? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes; we have two. Mr. BALL - Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building? Mr. LOVELADY - East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side. Mr. BALL - Now, the south side--- Mr. LOVELADY - Elm Street is that little dead-end street. Mr. BALL - That's south. Mr. LOVELADY - I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west. Mr. BALL - You came into the building from the west side? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. Mr. BALL - Where did you go into the building? Mr. LOVELADY - Through that, those raised-up doors. Mr. BALL - Through the raised-up doors? Mr. LOVELADY - Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it. Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor? Mr. LOVELADY - Right. more proof that going into and out of the TSBD before 1pm that day was not difficult... Mr. BELIN. And then you went through your actions, what you saw, your conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the building and up to the point that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald? Mrs. REID. That is right. Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you? Mrs. REID. Approximately 2 minutes. Mr. DULLES. I didn't hear you. Mrs. REID. Two minutes. Mr. BELIN. From the time of the last shot the time you and Oswald crossed? Mrs. REID. Yes; I believe that is the way we timed it. Sawyer is not into the TSBD until 12:34 at the earliest and goes directly to the front elevator when he sees THIS MAN If Reid sees Oswald heading EAST and then goes down to the first floor... and Sawyer is entering the TSBD a minute or two later... it's hard to imagine them not crossing paths... especially with others seeing Oswald by/in that storage closet... If the entire Coke episode is real - according to Reid, Truly, Baker and Fritz's notes of what Oswald said - why doesn't Baker's affidavit tell the correct story? As Greg says, once it was discovered Oswald was on the 2nd floor and has bought a coke and was NOT seen by Baker/Truly... the story had to change...

Great stuff Greg.... The 4th & 5th floors are very interesting places... Seems the passenger elevator at the front of the TSBD only went as high as the 4th floor... This is the elevator Sawyer and two officers take sometime between 12:34 and 12:37 By this point then Baker and Truly have been in, up and down. People have been going in and out of the front and back doors.... Fake SS agents are encountered at the back door and a black man who had been there claims not to have seen anyone leave in direect conflict with other testimonies.. Greg - are you also saying that Fritz made up Oswald's response when he noted "claims 2nd floor Coke when off came in... to 1st floor had lunch" and this happens in the first page of notes... from the 3:15 11/22 questioning While at the same time Baker is writing up his affidavit.... how is it possible to have THAT affidavit in their hands and question him as if nothing was in conflict with it? (By not showing or stating what was in the affidavit I assume) Since these affidavits would not see the light of day (like the Boone and Weitzman ones) the story for the WC would be the story... Fritz wrote these notes from memory or at the time of the questioning? If from memory, the 2nd floor comment makes sense... Representative BOGGS -Let me ask one other question. You later, when you recognized this man as Lee Oswald, is that right, saw pictures of him? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. I had occasion to see him in the homicide office later that evening after we got through with Parkland Hospital and then Love Field and we went back to the City Hall and I went up there and made this affidavit. Mr. BELIN - Now, you did see him later at the police station, is that correct? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN - Was he wearing anything that looked like Exhibit 150 at the police station? Mr. BAKER - He did have a brown-type shirt on that was out. Mr. BELIN - Did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen when you saw him at the School Book Depository Building? Mr. BAKER - I could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all I can say. Mr. DULLES - You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later Mr. BAKER - I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into the building and on up what we are discussing now. (At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.) Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker Mr. DULLES - I didn't get clearly in mind, I am trying to check up, as to whether you saw Oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day. Did you see Oswald later in the day of November 22d? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I did. Mr. DULLES - Under what circumstances? Don't go into detail, I just want to tie up these two situations. Mr. BAKER - As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time. Mr. DULLES - You saw him for a moment at that time? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, you then left the second floor lunchroom with Mr. Truly, is that correct? Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir. Mr. BELIN - How long did you stay in the lunchroom after Truly identified this person as being an employee? Mr. BAKER - Just momentarily. As he said, "Yes, he works here," I turned and went on up the stairs As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing. Mr. BELIN. What did you see? Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24. Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom. Mr. TRULY. That is right. Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23. Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open? Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember. Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember? Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed. Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it? Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way. Mr. BELIN. What did you see? Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. BELIN. And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him? Mr. TRULY. He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside he was just inside the lunchroom door. Mr. BELIN. All right. Mr. TRULY. 2 or 3 feet, possibly. Mr. BELIN. Could you put an "O" where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald? All right. You have put an "O" on Exhibit 497. What did you see or hear the officer say or do? Mr. TRULY. When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes." Mr. BELIN. And then what happened? Mr. TRULY. Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor. The avoidance of the entire episode is quite amazing really.... while this one thing is but a single detail it represents the entire case... The WC has in its hands evidence that directly conflicts with the testimony... and never bothers to investigate further... just like Sawyer and THIS MAN... Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by. And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything. Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct? Mr. SAWYER. That's right. Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door? Mr. SAWYER. Right. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man. (DJ: He later says the elevator was there when they got there... yet they still run into THIS MAN getting off the elevator with literally NO FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS related to who that was and why Sawyer did not stop or recognize him) Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door? Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right. Mr. BELIN. To the right? Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator? Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator. Mr. BELIN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator? Mr. SAWYER. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top floor. Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to? Mr. SAWYER. That's right. Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there? Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me. Mr. BELIN. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there into a warehouse area? Mr. SAWYER. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area. Mr. BELIN. Did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage area? Mr. SAWYER. No. Mr. BELIN. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area there? Mr. SAWYER. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers. Mr. BELIN. Now Inspector, what did you do then? Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building. Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that? Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out. Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance? Mr. SAWYER. We'll, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered. DJ: This I believe was Haygood Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building? Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out. Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out? Mr. SAWYER. I did. Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor? Mr. SAWYER. After I got down. Mr. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m? Mr. SAWYER. Correct. Mr. BELIN. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well, you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers? Mr. SAWYER. Officers. Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you? Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Mr. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas School Book Depository, at that particular time? Mr. SAWYER. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a reference also made to the overpass. Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event--pardon me, do you have anything else to add? Mr. SAWYER. Also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about the railroad yard. Mr. BELIN. All right. Mr. SAWYER. And this could be part of what I was thinking about, or what I had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad yard. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that correct? Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that. Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down? Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there. Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to? Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most. Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down? Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down. Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34? Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do? Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out. Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of? Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building. To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out. Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that? Mr. SAWYER. That's right. Mr. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that were there? Even before you instructed them? Mr. SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the Sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too. Mr. BELIN. What happened at the front door now. There were people standing. out on the area of the steps, were there not? Mr. SAWYER. No. There were some people around, yes. Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not any of those would have been stopped? Mr. SAWYER. For sure, no; I don't. Mr. BELIN. I have here a Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which appears to be a transcript of a police radio log, and I notice that at 12:35 p.m., there is a call from 142 to 531. 531 is your station headquarters? Mr. HAYGOOD. Right. Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read what you said? Mr. HAYGOOD. "I talked to a guy at the scene who says the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building with the Hertz Rent A Car sign on top." Mr. BELIN. Is that what you said? Mr. HAYGOOD. Approximately. I don't recall the exact words. Mr. BELIN. There was a response to you. What does it say there? Mr. HAYGOOD. "Get his name, address, phone number and all information you can." Mr. BELIN. Did you do that? Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I never. Mr. BELIN. What happened? Mr. HAYGOOD. Because I was told to go to the School Book Depository Building. I instructed the three different people to come to the front of the School Book Depository Building and remain there until they were talked to. Mr. BELIN. You took these people that you had with you? Mr. HAYGOOD. I did not take them, no. Mr. BELIN. You instructed them to go there? Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. Mr. BELIN. In front of the School Book Depository? Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. Mr. BELIN. And remain there until someone talked to them? Mr. HAYGOOD. Right. Mr. BELIN. You don't know the names of these people? Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I don't. Mr. BELIN. Do you know who talked to thereat all? Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't. Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I went to the School Building at the rear location of it, which would be Mr. BELIN. To the back door? Mr. HAYGOOD. North side of it, yes. Mr. BELIN. Where that door leads out there to the dock? Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; on the northeast corner there. Mr. BELIN. What did you do then? Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I talked to the colored male that was standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes or so. And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they had not. Mr. BELIN. Do you remember his name? Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't. Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time, it was people, squads and all arriving at the scene, and I went on into the building, which they stayed outside, and helped them search the building. Mr. BELIN. Anything else? Mr. HAYGOOD. That is about all. Mr. BELIN. Did you search the building on the sixth floor or not? Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the rifle? Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the shells? Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. Mr. BELIN. Where were you when the shells were found? Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on the sixth floor when the shells were found. I was still on the sixth when they found the rifle on the fifth. Mr. BELIN. On the fifth? Mr. HAYGOOD. Sixth floor, rather, I am sorry. Mr. BELIN. Where on the sixth floor were you when the shells were found? Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't recall just exactly where it was at. It was on the floor though. It was just a big open floor. DJ: Does that sound more like the 5th or 6th floor? When we look at thephotos of the 6th floor, there are boxes everywhere.... http://www.history-m...Vol17_0115b.htm this is a diagram of the 5th floor... and photos of the 5th floor... http://www.history-m...Vol17_0116b.htm more open or less than the 6th... and would anyone describe the spots where the rifle and shells were found as "OPEN" ? Mr. BELIN. Do you mean they were somewhere on that open floor? Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. Not sure that Harkness or Haygood went with Sawyer as their testimony does not give that impression - if it was neither of these men... WHO went to the 4th floor with Sawyer and who remained in the building while another went to the rear of the building? Mr. BELIN - When you told Inspector Sawyer that you had a witness that said the shot came from the building, up to that particular moment, had the front part of the building been sealed off yet? Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN - It had already been sealed off? Mr. HARKNESS - There was two officers with Inspector Sawyer at the front. Mr. BELIN - Were they stopping people from going in and out? Mr. HARKNESS - I don't know. Mr. BELIN - You don't know? Mr. HARKNESS - No, sir; I don't know that, because I didn't go up and talk to them. Mr. BELIN - Did you notice whether or not people were coming in and out of the building? Mr. HARKNESS - No. I was interested in getting around to the back of the building to make sure it was. Mr. BELIN - Then am I correct that your testimony is that you didn't notice whether people were coming in and out? Did you notice, or did you not notice whether people were coming out of the building at that time? Mr. HARKNESS - Several officers at the area, and it was a lot of people around. I don't know whether they were going in or out or not. I couldn't say that. Mr. BELIN - Then you went around to the back of the building? Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN - Was anyone around in the back when you got there? Mr. HARKNESS - There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service.

Nice post Daniel.... There is also the TIMES we are discussing... a TIME when the first assumption was NOT that the governement or police or FBI was lying... covering anything up... THEY were the good guys, the guys to trust... and the "plan" used this fact against the witnesses.... When men in dark suits and glasses flash Secret Service credientials - both on the GK and at the back of the TSBD - it is not questioned... We have the benefit now of YEARS being indoctrinated to the evils of the governement and its employees... At that time, when you were told you only heard three shots and only from the TSBD... THEY must be right since THEY are the government and THEY would never lie to us... Some of the fooled spoke out sooner - and were dealt with.. some spoke out later.... and were also dealt with.... When a boulder is pushed down a hill - it is simply not correct to state that each pebble it encounters along its journey down the mountain is part of the reason the boulder is moving to being with.... they are simply spots along the way where the boulder comes into contact with the outside world... As DSL so eloquently puts it... the case is NOT about who put the bullets in, but who made sure they were taken out. DJ

Okay Greg... You keep offering CIA and FBI documents that are presented as "this was told to me by" and then presented as FACT thru the HSCA and WCR.... On the other hand you have Armstrong putting words into people's mouths in much the same way... Not entirely sure who is being either more devious or more genuine... Your arguments are valid. Sadly, even after studying Armstrong's work, visualzing the timelines and really understanding the minutia is an ongoing process for me, one that I am working on as best I can. btw - as YOU are the one helping me to see the "other" side of this.. I am inclined to take an even closer and more studied look at the info.... so thanks..... I do not see where I am "but what about" anything, rather I'm taking what you are saying about specific people and locations, "bad memories, possibly mistaken, etc..." and trying to provide the substantiation for their statements and an explanation regarding your rebuttals. I believe I too go to the nth degree to provide the documentation and reasoning behind my posts... in most every area and with most everyone Of course Armstrong could be wrong... At the same time he could be right... and before I chuck it all away - even WITH your excellent points - I'd like to do a bit more work. So, no more to bother you.... I need to construct a concurrent timeline based on the book and documents and see for myself... and btw, thanks for your nth degree... I've learned more from you and a small handful of others here than I could anywhere else - and it's much appreciated. DJ

Or sometime very soon afterward... yet that seems VERY difficult to explain... Right up until the casket was closed wasn't Jackie right there? Taking the wedding ring and such... What really bothers me here though is the original post... I went to my copy of Manchester and read the part about Vernon... If we are to believe him, JFK has to arrive at Bethesda, in the BRONZE casket, with NUMEROUS rubber shrouds over his head... It also states that Vernon was mostly concerned with protecting the green velvet in the coffin... that the largest piece of rubber was under the plastic and on top of the velvet... with what he says are 7 layers between JFK and velvet. There is not a single Bethesda witness of ANY of the casket deliveries who see any evidence of this.... if anything, the 8pm unveiling would have these 7 layers.... Does the removal of all this rubber help support the empty casket, wrapped in sheets stories?

On Sept 14, 1958 HARVEY Oswald was sent from Atsugi to Ping Tung Taiwan.. not to return until Oct 6th On Sept 16, Dr. Paul Deranian diagnosis Oswald with gonorrhea: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/vd.htm (I only use this link to show that Deranian was indeed the doctor at ATSUGI JAPAN.... not on the ship or in Taiwan.) One such misconception that collapses under further inspection is that Oswald's contracting of gonorrhea is conclusively linked to his activities as an intelligence operative. The cause of the speculation can be found among the Warren Commission's reproduction of Oswald's medical file during his service in the Marines from 1956-59.(2) The reason for this speculation is a diagnosis by Captain Paul Deranian, the senior medical officer at Atsugi, that Oswald contracted "Urethritis, Acute, due to gonococcus #0303." The Captain noted its origin as being "In line of duty, not due to own misconduct." While on the surface this notation might seem odd, especially to those not acquainted with military regulations and procedures involving law and medicine, there is no mystery surrounding this determination. http://www.history-m..._Donabedian.pdf Donadebian was called in by the WCR to explain the records.... Captain DONABEDIAN. Not in this one. The one above here, we assume he had gonorrhea-on the 16th. Problem here Greg... HARVEY OSWALD left for Taiwan two days before. as the unit diaries say... All the while that HARVEY is in Taiwan, LEE is still in ATSUGI getting treated for STDs. I'm all ears over how you reconcile this Greg.... thanks DJ and thanks Steven... much appreciated.

btw - you will notice that ALL the links for 54-55 describe Oswald as the small, quiet, loner, that was HARVEY... Betwewen that photo of LEE in the classroom in the Bronx zoo composite, 1952/3, and the 1956 Marine photo all there is of LEE is the photo of his missing tooth in the classroom which John feels could be Robert. Look at what we have for LEE between 55 and 59.... horribly out of focus, potential composites versus the clear images of HARVEY. LEE can be traced after 55/56 and the contrast between the MARINE and the little commie-loving troublemaker Harvey is easily seen and extensively documented.... DJ

Thanks for taking the time and effort Greg... I would not call McBride the FOUNDATION as much as the launching point... that would be akin to saying if we can prove Oswald ordered the rifle, he committed the crime... those two things do not necessitate each other... beyond McBride there is so much to support H&L.... but all in due time At a quick glance I see most of your info is focused on 54-55 and not the 52-53, 53-54 school years... As I go to each of those links you offered I find them discussing 54-55.... we are focused on the 53/54 school year here... you will not find many witnesses after 1955 who will tell you anything about LEE... Harvey on the other hand has become the center of attention. Myra Darouse - Beauregard Myra "claimed" to be Oswald's home teacher because she was. Just not in any part of 1953 as she apparently thought some 40 years later. http://www.maryferre...71&relPageId=34 At this link of yours there is no mention of school years at all... and she confirms the smallness of the student she knew as Harvey Here is the NY PS#44 school record for LEE - between MAY and SEPT 1953 he grew slightly and was still 115lbs - not the small, quiet little boy Darouse - and a number of other people who knew Harvey and not Lee - described him as... the psychiatrist in NY (Milton KURIAN, march 1953) also described him as very small and undernourished while dealing with his truancy problems... nothing like the well adjusted, and well developed LEE Are you going to claim that from Jan 53 thru May 53 he grew 8 inches? and then when the photo at the Bronx zoo is taken that summer he shrinks back down again? The boy in the Bronx zoo photo is NOT 5'4" and 115... in fact, LEE would have grown even more by the summer... Harvey, the boy in that photo was NOT recognized by John.. while the other boy was... Greg, the problem is WITH the official timeline... I will take your post and look thru the links and address your points - which I can always count on to be well presented and well supported.... yet starting with that link to Darouse and you telling me there is something there that tells us the YEARS involved - when there is no mention of timeframe at all is a bit of a surprise. I'd like to get back to 1952/53 as this is the key period of transition - Here is just a little piece of why I do not trust what the FBI writes without signature of authentication - and then I will address 52/53 and more of your post. when we look around the Darouse pages in that file you linked me to, we see the FBI saying BREEDLOVE said that he too did not "recall" Oswald while at Beauregard Yet at the same time we have Lee Harvey Oswald's 8th grade report card for Industrial Arts taught by FRED BREEDLOVE, with his signature... showing Lee in his class... guess it was convenient for the FBI to state that Breedlove did not know him... especially during the 53/54 year when LEE was in HR 303 and Harvey was with Darouse elsewhere. Greg, Since when do FBI reports of what he said, she said, they said, and what we chose to write down ever account for evidence in this case? and so far, each of the links has to do with 54-55.... 53/54 is what wer are discussing, having statements from people about the 54/55 year is of no consquence... More soon. Cheers DJ btw - while I am no where near the researcher others are, I do believe I have a good grasp of the material. I try not to JUDGE the theory before I investigate it. You seem to simply not like the H&L idea and have focused all your efforts on McBride... when the keys to this mystery are to be found in total...

What YOU consider is of no consequence to anyone here Mikey... You can IGNORE everyone if you like... no one is going to put up with your repeated reluctance to LEARN SOMETHING HERE as opposed to climbing up your little ant hill and proclaiming yourself "King" So no more worries Mikey... like Paul May and Brian Walker before you... stoopid is as stoopid does.... You want to get your jollies sounding ignorant and offering uninformed opinions - have at it. Another fly by night xxxxx in the process of losing steam... bu-bye now...

replies in bold Mike, Forming your opinions from what you have found out on this, or any other forum, is no way to understand - let alone criticise - any researcher's work and ideas. Opinions generated on the Internet tend to be watered down versions of the original. If you want to be critical of David Lifton, at least do him the curtesy of reading his work. That way you might at least understand what it is he is saying. James Again, I am not critical of David Lifton. I think he is a very nice man. I am critical of his theories that he has stated in the forum. That is all. How can one be critical of "his theories" when you haven't taken the time to read and understand them yet? I am happy that he is willing to engage with us in the forum. Not as long as you keep talking out of your A$$ Mike... those here have been at it for 10, 20, 30 almost 50 years!! What he exposes are suppressed, historical FACTS related to the movement and alteration of JFK's body... refute this Mike... and please try not to forget that it was Kellerman, Greer, Sibert & O'Neill who claim to WHEEL JFK into the morgue at 7:17. and the MDW (Joint Casket Bearer Team) officially carries in the casket at 8pm... first incision at 8:15... Finck called at 7:30 after xrays and photos have already started being taken When you can reconcile these three bits of FACT into a coherent theory, let us know... DSL did it in 1981 after 15 years of work. And you've done what, exactly? My theory of the case is based on the validity of the photographic evidence. His theory of the case requires that photographic evidence to have been fabricated. So why not go about AUTHENTICATING / VALIDATING this evidence? Your complete inability to grasp what DSL has offered is staggering... As I have stated before, I have read very few books on the JFK assassination. I did not want to be influenced by any opinions of the case stated by other authors. I wanted to study the evidence and come up with my own opinion. I was very surprised to find that there was a book out there that had a somewhat similar interpretation.( I have not read that book either) "study the evidence" - from where Mike? From which book or set of books will you be finding and authenticating this "evidence" The WCR? HSCA? ARRB? Rush to Judgement? False Mystery? Accessories After the Fact? Reclaiming History? Case Closed? With Malice? Death of A President? The Weisberg books, Harvey & Lee, Oswald and the CIA, LBJ: Mastermind, Who Kiled JFK?, Six Seconds in Dallas...... Where exactly are you going to find the evidence YOU LIKE? When you read my opinion you can be sure it is my opinion, uninfluenced by the opinion of the author of any other book. But like a$$holes, everyone has an opinion.... from what do you base this opinion Mike? What gives your opinion any value to others when you choose not to LEARN about the assassination? This approach has worked well. I have been able to identify several important errors. The severe cropping of the Towner #3 photo and the incorrect chronological ordering of that photo are two important examples. YOU were able to ID these errors? Tell us Mike... what EXACTLY is your opinion related to the assassination and from where do you derive it? Whose shoulders do you stand upon to come to your conclusions?

I didn't actually think the swap happened at Parkland... just a thought based on the sequence... But there is the quick drive to Love Field... I didn't realize so many went with the ambulance... I could have sworn that it was only Kellerman who drove off... DJ http://www.jfk-online.com/landis.html At approximately 2:00 pm the President's body was wheeled from the hospital in a coffin into an ambulance. Special Agent Andrew Berger drove the ambulance; ASAIC Kellerman and ATSAIC Stout were in the front seat. Mrs. Kennedy, Admiral Burkley, and Agent Hill rode in the rear of the ambulance with the President's body. I rode in the Follow-up car behind the ambulance which departed the hospital at 2:04 pm. At 2:14 pm, the President's body arrived at Love Field Airport and several Secret Service agents immediately carried it on board U.S. Air Force No. One via the rear door. I followed on board behind Mrs. Kennedy and then moved to the forward section of the plane. I witnessed the swearing in of President Johnson at 2:39 pm in the center compartment on board Air Force #1, and at 2:47 pm departed Love Field Airport, Dallas, Texas, via Air Force No. One, with Mrs. Kennedy and the body of the late President Kennedy. Josh, my understanding was that there was luggage problems between AF-1 and AF-2... the wait for the judge to swear LBJ in... and the FACT that everyone attnded the wearing in... even those who said the casket was never left alone... I do believe that JFK was offloaded from the front right of the plane and flown via helicopter to ??? DJ