Robert Harris
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Posts posted by Robert Harris
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David, it is a FACT that Lt. Alexander never put this thing into evidence. If he had it would have been listed in the DPD archives. Have you searched yet? I gave you a link.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm
To look at the other boxes, just change "box1" to box2, box3, etc.
I know that's more work than just blurting out lies, but it will be easier if you search using CTRL-f then "receipt" or Bell or Alexander. You can do a pretty thorough search that way in an hour or so.
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And BTW, David. Why have you evaded all of this?
If this was a valid receipt it would have been entered into evidence. That would be its only conceivable purpose.
If it was valid, Audrey Bell would have described multiple fragments on that receipt, not one.
And she would have told the HSCA and ARRB that she gave them to a Texas Ranger, as is written on this "receipt".
If it was valid, officer Nolan would have told us the nurse he encountered said she had "fragments" taken during surgery, not a whole bullet from a stretcher.
If it was valid DA Wade would have said the same thing. And he would never have seen her holding a bullet in her hand.
If it was valid, Stinson would have told Ramparts magazine that fragments were taken from Connally during surgery, not a whole bullet.
If it was valid, Connally would never have said a nurse recovered the bullet that wounded him.
And "Audrey Bell Never Gave Anything To Bobby Nolan" is not Robert Harris's theory. It is Audrey Bell's sworn testimony.
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6 hours ago, David Von Pein said:
~heavy sigh~
It was found in the National Archives files. And it's got the signatures of Bell and Nolan on it. That's not good at all for your theory....especially since we've got the DPD inventory list in CE2003 to corroborate the hospital memo that you think is "bogus".
When putting those two CORROBORATING documents together, we can safely label Bob Harris' "Audrey Bell Never Gave Anything To Officer Bobby Nolan" theory with this word ---- DEBUNKED!
How many times do I have to ask if you have verified those signatures, before you admit that you haven't even tried?
And why do you evade the overwhelming evidence which contradicts your "evidence" which was never even entered into evidence?
And here's a few more questions for you to evade.
Why is it that Bell never mentioned her encounter with DA Wade?
Why didn't Nolan ever mention signing a receipt?
How do you explain the doodling and partial erasures on the original CE-842?
Why was the information section empty on the envelope that Nolan received?
Why didn't "Bell" make him initial it before he took it to the DPD?
Why didn't Bell initial it as she was required to do and testified under oath that she did?
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14 hours ago, David Von Pein said:
Why do you keep saying this? It was found in the NATIONAL ARCHIVES by Gary Murr, among lots of other "JFK evidence". Doesn't that count as being "put into evidence"??
Being in a box, buried out of sight for decades does not count as being put into evidence.
If it had been put into evidence it would have been listed in the DPD's evidence archives after it was submitted by Lt. Alexander. But nothing even remotely similar to that, is in the files. Do what I did and check it out yourself, David. You can start with box #1
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10 hours ago, David Von Pein said:
Bob doesn't have the slightest idea what kind of "chain" that document followed. He just has a desire to call it a fake document---and that's because he's got a pet theory to push. And if that document is NOT a fake, then Bob's decades-long "Audrey Bell Never Gave Anything To Bobby Nolan" theory is toast. And I know Bob Harris doesn't like that idea at all.
It doesn't help you to lie about what I say and why I say it, David.
If this was a valid receipt it would have been entered into evidence. That would be its only conceivable purpose.
If it was valid, Audrey Bell would have described multiple fragments on that receipt, not one.
And she would have told the HSCA and ARRB that she gave them to a Texas Ranger, as is written on this "receipt".
If it was valid, officer Nolan would have told us the nurse he encountered said she had "fragments" taken during surgery, not a whole bullet from a stretcher.
If it was valid DA Wade would have said the same thing. And he would never have seen her holding a bullet in her hand.
If it was valid, Stinson would have told Ramparts magazine that fragments were taken from Connally during surgery, not a whole bullet.
If it was valid, Connally would never have said a nurse recovered the bullet that wounded him.
And "Audrey Bell Never Gave Anything To Bobby Nolan" is not Robert Harris's theory. It is Audrey Bell's sworn testimony.
If that's not enough David, there are plenty of other very serious discrepancies we can talk about. But it does nothing for your credibility to pretend that this is all about my being closed minded. Prove that this is legitimate and I will agree with you, heart and soul. But so far, the evidence is overwhelmingly against you.
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5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:
Bob:
You never answered Alberto's entering question: Who do you think the nurse was?
He maps out three suspects and asks if you talked to any of them.
I have a suspect, but she has not been very talkative and I cannot prove she was the one, so at least for now, I'd rather not elaborate. There are several other nurses who are candidates as well, but most nurses from '63 are either dead or have changed their names, making them impossible to find.
I saw Alberto's post, but I really don't like to guess or speculate. I just wish I had started doing this in the sixties.
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3 hours ago, David Von Pein said:
But we know now that Nolan definitely DID sign a receipt. Gary Murr found it. You want to believe it's yet another piece of "bogus" evidence connected with this case. You are free to go down that path if you desire, but no reasonable person is likely to think that the FBI or DPD faked a document with the handwriting of three different people on it. (And Bobby Nolan's distinct "B" is telling me a lot, even if it tells you nothing.)
Face it, Robert Harris, your theory is wrong. Audrey Bell DID give an envelope to Bobby Nolan, and that envelope contained only FRAGMENTS of a bullet, not a whole bullet. And there's now TWO documents that corroborate that event---the hospital memorandum and CE2003.
David, how do I carry on a discussion with you without swearing and saying things that I'm sure are not permitted here?
You just keep blurting out things you couldn't prove to save your life. It gets really boring.
Your side of this argument bears the burden of validating the evidence you present. So far, no one has even tried to verify this alleged receipt. What HAS been proven however, is that it contradicts a small army of highly reliable witnesses, including the two who supposedly signed it. And the officer it was allegedly sent to, never put it into evidence - probably because it was fabricated long after 11/22/63.
Over in McAdams newsgroup I coined a phrase for the nutters, which even some of them have started using. "Blurtation" - something someone just blurts out with no attempt to prove or support it with evidence. Blurtations are all you do, David. You seem to think that if you blurt it out enough times it will eventually come true.
I'll be happy to accept this thing, if somebody can just prove it is valid.
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14 hours ago, Gary Murr said:
Just because the memorandum was addressed to Lt. Alexander does not, in my opinion, constitute proof of reception of this same document by Lt. Alexander and importantly the accompanying metallic residue. As Audrey Bell herself indicated, normal procedure would leave one with the assumption that acquisition of the document [and evidence] would have occurred had normal procedural routines been followed through to fruition. But "normal procedure" did not rule this particular day and what should have occurred procedurally did not occur - was short-circuited through the process of intervention on the part of Bob Nolan. So I ask the question once again: What proof do you have that Lt. Alexander ever had possession of this specific document? Do you see anything on this document that confirms Alexander ever saw, handled, or read the document? Are his initials on this document - anywhere? Whose initials are on the document?
I don't understand your theory. The deviation was passing the foreign body envelope to someone other than Alexander. But no one claimed that Nolan was given this receipt. Nolan in fact, never said he signed a receipt. But even if he had, why wouldn't it have been forwarded to Alexander?
What are you suggesting happened to it?
And BTW, what are your explanations for the statements of Wade and Nolan, regarding a nurse with a whole bullet that she claimed, came from Connally's gurney?
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57 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:
Davey is conveniently leaving out the fact that he told his wife and she confirmed this to Mickey H.
Connally never went as far in public as he did in private. Which is something else that DVP refuses to acknowledge-- even though its true.
Doug Thompson asked him flat out if he bought the WCR. Let me quote that discussion verbatim from Joe McBride's book in order to get it through DVP's rather obtuse thinking pattern:
DT: Did you think Lee Harvey Oswald fired the gun that killed Kennedy?
JBC: Absolutely not. I do not, for one second, believe the conclusions of the Warren Commission.
DT: So why not speak out?
JBC: Because I love this country and we needed closure at the time. I will never speak out publicly about what I believe. (p. 418)
Now, if that does not explain a few things I do not know what would. He is not denying the SBT here Davey Boy. He is saying that Oswald did not fire a shot that day. And he is saying he felt that way from the start. Which would seem to be from when the WCR announced its conclusions. And he hid what he really knew and felt because of this goofy misguided patriotism that has screwed up this country.
And maybe that is why he told his wife in secret. And that is why he did not disclose it until he was at death's door. It completely jibes with what he told Thompson.
BTW, one last humorous aspect. In this day and age, for Davey to quote the WC testimony of anyone, especially when the questioning is by Specter, is simply ludicrous. If you dig up Ken O'Donnell's false affidavit about the direction of the shots, you will see that that was rehearsed with him by Specter. And that is just one example of falsely elicited testimony. And these are the kinds of people DVP trusts.
David knows all about that. He responded to my post in a.a.j. last year which cited Thompson at http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/24557 with a personal insult but totally evaded the issue. David doesn't care that an argument or question has been answered. He just waits for awhile and then repeats it again, hoping that everyone has forgotten.
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7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:
As I speculated earlier, I think it's merely a matter of conflating things. 1993 was thirty years after these events occurred. I think when Henry Wade said what he said about Connally's "gurney", he had thoughts in his mind of the CE399 "stretcher bullet". Wade knew that a whole bullet was, indeed, found on Connally's stretcher (or "gurney") at Parkland. And he also had in his mind an event at Parkland which involved a nurse and an envelope which contained some bullet fragments that were recovered from Governor Connally's body. Those two events, in my opinion, could very likely have become merged in Wade's head, so when Wade talked about the events of 11/22/63 in later years, he merged and conflated Stretcher Bullet 399 with a nurse holding an envelope which contained only bullet fragments.
If you want to accuse me of merely inventing a convenient excuse in order to dismiss Henry Wade's 1993 story, well, go ahead. But, nevertheless, "conflation" is what I think probably happened.David, you are hilarious.
And I guess Nolan suffered exactly the same delusion, right? And Connally? How about Stinson? Is this why he believed this was a whole bullet, just like Nolan and Wade did?
And what delusion caused Bell to be adamant that she never gave anything to Nolan?
My crazy theory: Connally, Nolan, Wade, Stinson and Bell told the truth.
David, you don't understand how conflation works. A person might confuse similar events but Wade would never have hallucinated a detailed conversation with a nurse who was holding a whole bullet in her hand.
And the fact that Nolan heard the nurse say EXACTLY THE SAME THING eliminates any possibility that this was a delusion.
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17 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:
Thanks Sandy, I wouldn't have said anything without further confirmation, but I would swear that I saw a video and heard Connally describing the object drop.
OK, for the first one to find and link that video, I will ask David to send a check for $1000!!
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25 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:
Huh?? Why on Earth would you think the RECEIPT ITSELF would need to be "catalogued" and therefore show up in an "INVENTORY OF EVIDENCE" list like the one we find in CE2003? You think the HOSPITAL MEMO itself should have been mentioned on the DPD's inventory sheet? That's crazy.
Nobody lied about this incident at all. Nobody. Bell was simply mistaken about the person to whom she gave the envelope containing the Connally bullet fragments. And via your own interview of Bobby Nolan, we know that Nolan himself didn't actually SEE what was inside the envelope. He had no idea what was in there. And Henry Wade's memory of the event must have also faded quite a bit too. He has undoubtedly conflated information concerning the "stretcher bullet" (CE399) with information about the envelope which contained only FRAGMENTS from Governor Connally's wrist. (What year did Wade say what he said about the "bullet" and the "gurney", Bob? I'm not sure when it was. Can you please inform me.)
And she was obviously wrong. And the hospital memo plus CE2003 provide the PROOF she was wrong/mistaken.
Why on Earth would you think the RECEIPT ITSELF would need to be "catalogued" and therefore show up in an "INVENTORY OF EVIDENCE"
Because it would have been extremely important evidence, which confirmed the chain of custody. Not only was this thing NOT in the DPD archives, but it never appeared in the National Archives, except buried in some box of items the HSCA had gotten from Parkland years later.
Nobody lied about this incident at all.
The Psychic Hotline closed down years ago. So how did you confirm that no one lied?
Please be specific.
And yes, Nolan didn't see the bullet. He was told that it was a bullet, undoubtedly by the same nurse who Connally saw retrieve it. Wade also encountered that nurse, who was holding the bullet in her hand and who told him exactly the same thing that she told Nolan.
Wade stated that in an interview in 1993. Are you going to claim that those men suffered identical delusions due to age? How did they manage to both come up with the bullet coming from Connally's "gurney" - exactly where Connally said it came from?
The "gurney" was unintuitive, David. The natural presumption would be that it was recovered in surgery. No one would just hallucinate something like that. They had to have been told.
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18 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:
You've now got TWO very good reasons to abandon your theory about Audrey Bell never giving any evidence to Bobby Nolan----those two things being: the hospital memo unearthed by Gary Murr and the DPD inventory sheet in CE2003.
It is hilarious to hear what you think are "very good reasons".
1. An unverified receipt that the officer who received it, refused to put into evidence, and which contradicted everything those two people told us.
2. Third hand statements by people who never in their lives, heard Bell or Nolan confirm that she passed an envelope to him.
David, if a conspiracy advocate presented "evidence" like that, you'd be laughing your proverbial ass off, and rightly so
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5 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:
That's odd. Because I also recall Connally describing something drop to the floor. That's how I became aware of this issue.
Perhaps what I saw was a video with a narrator describing how Connally heard something drop.
Well, if you can find it, please post a link to it.
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Cut the crap, David.
There is NOTHING in the DPD archives that even remotely describes the receipt we are talking about. Alexander obviously, refused to send it to Fritz, who would have catalogued it along with all the other evidence.
And yes, the "description", AKA third hand statements that Bell passed a "fragment" to Nolan was certainly in the files, but not a single person outside of the FBI, claimed that Bell told them that. Strange, isn't it that she told NO ONE about this except the FBI, who at the very least, lied about the quantity that Bell processed, then lied about what Nolan and Stinson told them?
Bell told us exactly what happened and who she gave her fragments to - FIRST HAND.
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35 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:
What a surprise! Bob Harris thinks something is fake! But it's not too much of a shocker that Bob is now calling the hospital memo a "bogus" document. Because if he were to admit the truth---that Nurse Bell gave the bullet fragments to Officer Nolan after all---Mr. Harris would have to abandon one of his most treasured theories that he's put decades into promoting. And I doubt that that will ever happen.
David, it's one thing to misrepresent me, but it's another to deliberately lie about why I said what I did.
My conclusions are based purely on the evidence - evidence that you have been evading for years. Nolan never signed a receipt at all and Bell would never have said that the man she dealt with was NOT in uniform if she had dealt with Nolan (in full dress uniform) and watched him sign off as a "Texas State Trooper".
Alexander must have known that this thing was phony, which is why he refused to send it to Will Fritz. All of the evidence DPD processed, was catalogued and listed along with descriptions. That "receipt" is nowhere to be found.
Pretending that I form my conclusions based on some mythical need is hugely insulting, and you KNOW that is pure BS.
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23 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:
How do you know precisely what Alexander did with it? And how do you know it wasn't seen by other members of the DPD or FBI?
Maybe somebody made a copy of it, and all that remains now is the copy that Gary Murr dug up for himself in the late 1990s.
In any event, that document positively has the handwriting of THREE different people on it, including Nolan's and Bell's writing. I guess you think the FBI (or somebody) forged BOTH Nolan's and Bell's signatures on that document, right? You must think their signatures are forgeries, since you're now saying you think the memo is "bogus".
What a surprise! Bob Harris thinks something is fake! But it's not too much of a shocker that Bob is now calling the hospital memo a "bogus" document. Because if he were to admit the truth---that Nurse Bell gave the bullet fragments to Officer Nolan after all---Mr. Harris would have to abandon one of his most treasured theories that he's put decades into promoting. And I doubt that that will ever happen.
We know exactly what Alexander did with it - NOTHING.
As Gary suggested, it was taken by the HSCA years later, who subpoenaed Parkland hospital for everything related to the JFK case.
And you need to stop blurting out things that you can't prove to save your life. We don't know if those signatures are authentic. What we DO know is that this supposed receipt, contradicts nearly everything that Bell and Nolan told us about this issue. It also contradicts the statements of Connally, Stinson and Wade.
There has to be a reason why Alexander would refuse to send this document to Will Fritz or the FBI. The FBI had a great way to convince a few Parkland people to go along with them - they simply stated what they honestly believed - that evidence of conspiracy could lead to war with Russia. But not all of them were eager to take part in the scam.
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30 minutes ago, Gary Murr said:
Bob:
What evidence do you have that Lt. Alexander ever had possession of what you continue to maintain is a "bogus" receipt, duly prepared by Audrey Bell and signed, in turn, by Robert Nolan? Have you ever seen, or can you produce, another receipt from what in your opinion must be "thousands" that passed through the office from Lt. Alexander?
Gary, the evidence is that it was addressed to him. As you stated yourself,
The answer I contend is on the memorandum itself - the individual and entity to whom Audrey Bell originally and "normally" addressed the document and envelope - "Lt. Alexander, Crime Lab."
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David, it has been explained to you over and over and over again, why Connally did not come forward about that bullet, sooner than he did.
You should also remember that the JFK case was far from the most important thing in his life. He was a consummate politician and literally bankrupted himself in a failed attempt to run for the Presidency. He also worked hard to support other Democratic candidates.
Not only was that kind of thing far more important to him than the JFK case, but causing a controversy between himself and the FBI could hurt him politically.
But we can only guess about his motivations. What settle the matter is that WADE AND NOLAN MET THE SAME NURSE WHO RECOVERED THE BULLET.
Wade said,
I also went out to see (Gov. John) Connally, but he was in the operating room. Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the gurney that Connally was on.
And Nolan said
Nolan: I was talking to a man who was one of governor Connally's aides. His name
was - I think it was either Stinton or Stimmons (Bill Stinson). And he was an
aide to the Governor. And she came up and told him that she had the bullet
that came off of the gurney.And Stinson also stated that this was a bullet, not a fragment, which means that Nolan was correct when he said the nurse told him that. How else could Stinson have known this was a whole bullet.
This is what settles the matter. Case closed, David. Live with it.
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Another question David has not answered.
Why is it that Lt. Alexander of the DPD never turned over this supposed receipt to either the PD or the FBI? It would have been critical to maintaining the chain of custody, yet he kept it in his office instead of doing what he had done a thousand times before, when this kind of thing was sent to him.
Assuming he didn't have Alzheimer's, what is the most likely explanation?
That's right, he didn't pass it along because he knew it was bogus.
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2 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:
It doesn't "settle" the matter at all. Far from it, in fact.
Why?
Because the bullet that you, Bob Harris, thinks exists is NOWHERE IN EVIDENCE.
The things Bob Harris think are "settled" are really anything but (including Bob's "Z285" theory).
Let's review your "logic", David.
Zeek the Sneak, steals a million dollars worth of diamonds.
But wait!! There was no crime because the diamonds are not in evidence
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7 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:
That is what I thought.
Now, I am assuming this was written by Mickey H. Right?
Is Bob saying that Nellie told him about it and she got it from JBC?
No. John Connally told Herskowitz and his statement was put in the book, verbatim.
I interviewed Herskowitz, who told me that Nellie said her husband told her about it, within a few days after the assassination.
BTW, did you watch Nolan's interview, which I linked a few posts back? The man was an excellent, clear-headed witness and he recalled a lot details regarding the nurse he encountered and the bullet he received from her.
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2 hours ago, James R Gordon said:
Robert.
I have no idea why you should be confused. It was your words I was quoting. The post by DVP - that you answered and from whichI took a quote by you - pointed out that Connally never said that he heard a bullet fall from his stretcher.
My post simply posted out that what you said - in the excerpt I posted - was oblique. It was not clear whether this comment you made referred to Connally stating he heard the bullet fall and/or that Connally made it clear that he believed in a conspiracy. If the latter, I have no idea why you should identify points towards the end of his life. Although John Connally never used the word conspiracy in the 60's and 70's by determined sticking to his position that he was never hit by the same bullet that caused JFK's throat wound he was clearly supporting a conspiracy.
James, you asked me,
"Are you suggesting that towards the end of life John Connally did indeed mention to friends that he had heard a bullet falling from his stretcher?"
I never suggested that he told his friends about that. Why would you ask me if I did? I have no idea who he told about it.
What he did was describe that incident in his autobiography.
To clarify, I said Connally always realized this was a conspiracy, but told at least one friend that he never said that because the country needed to move on.
What I meant was that he realized this was a conspiracy but didn't go public with that belief because he thought the country needed to move on. His statements about the early shots did not mean conspiracy. He said he wasn't hit by the first shot, but also testified that he never saw JFK then, so he had no way to be sure Kennedy was hit by a different bullet then he was. Like you, I have never heard him publicly state that JFK was the victim of a conspiracy.
We can argue all day about his motives. But as I told David, the statements of Wade, Nolan and the nurse who recovered that bullet, settles the matter. Bell and Stinson added further corroboration. Have you watched Nolan's interview yet? It's important.
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12 minutes ago, James R Gordon said:
Robert Harris said:
"So he waited until he was literally on his death bed to come forward and the nation was at a point where most people knew this was a conspiracy anyway. By then, no harm would come."
Robert I am not sure what you are saying here. David's point was that there was never any statement from John Connally about hearing a bullet falling from his stretcher. Are you suggesting that towards the end of life John Connally did indeed mention to friends that he had heard a bullet falling from his stretcher?
James.
James, I'm a bit confused here. Why are you asking me if I said something that you know, I didn't say.
I have no idea who Connally may have told about this, other than Nellie, who told Herskowitz that he told her.
If he did tell anyone, he undoubtedly insisted that they not repeat it.
I answered your last question, in the paragraph that you snipped.
"I explained that to you before, David. Connally always realized this was a conspiracy, but told at least one friend that he never said that because the country needed to move on. Had he testified about the bullet, it would have caused a storm of controversy and turmoil, with the FBI probably attacking his claims."
You have always taken an adversarial position to my analyses, on various issues. That' s fine of course, but would you be willing to answer a few questions for me?
Who was the nurse collecting the TRUE bullet falling from Connally's thigh?
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
David, you need to do three things.
Think, think and then think.
If someone fabricated this thing, would they attempt to forge those signatures? Give me YOUR opinion.
We already know that the info section of CE-842 was forged because when Nolan got it, there was nothing there.
And there are other ways to verify this than via the signatures. A copy of this thing in the DPD archives would be very supportive, or a verification from Lt. Alexander, that he received it. Or anything that confirms that it went to Alexander. But Bell was very specific that she gave her receipt to her supervisor, Jack Price. From the ARRB report:
"She said she personally delivered the original of this receipt to Parkland Hospital Administrator Jack Price."
Here's the thing, David. If we were just looking at a couple of discrepancies, I might write it off to bad memory, but there are waay too many. Almost EVERYTHING from your side of the argument contradicts the verified evidence and witness statements.
Look at all the lies in the FBI reports, claiming that Nolan, Stinson and Bell all described one fragment. Nolan and Stinson described a whole bullet, which matches Wade and Connally and Bell reported "4 or 5" fragments. There are TOO MANY witnesses who were misquoted and they were much too consistent with one another, to call it brain farts.
Bell would never have signed a receipt describing ONE fragment and Nolan would never have signed a receipt claiming it was not a whole bullet.
Interesting, isn't it that she went to all this trouble to write up a receipt but failed to initial CE-842, as she was required to do and swore that she did??
I don't reject this item because I don't want "my theory" to be disrupted. I reject it because the evidence contradicts almost everything related to it.