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David Von Pein

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  1. David Von Pein

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    Notice how Jim totally ignored (once again) the Dallas Times Herald 11/21 map that I posted yesterday. (Jim likes to rely ONLY on the Dallas Morning News, I guess. The Times Herald doesn't count at all evidently.) So, when we include the Times Herald of Nov. 21 (which Jim is avoiding at all costs), let's try to follow the Bouncing Motorcade Route from day to day.... --------------------------------- November 16 --- Main Street only (DMN). November 19 --- Elm Street turn (Both Dallas papers---the DMN and DTH). November 20 --- Main Street only (DMN).* * Presumed to show Main St. only. But I've never seen this paper, and I'm not sure Jim D. has either. I've just assumed the conspiracy theorists who have been saying for 50 years that the 11/20/63 DMN shows "Only Main Street" know what they're talking about. But, who knows? However, for the sake of this argument in this discussion, I'll give the CTers the benefit of the doubt and assume the Nov. 20 DMN does not say anything about a turn onto Elm Street or Houston Street (via a text description or a map of any kind). November 21 --- Elm Street turn (DTH). November 22 --- Back to Main Street only (DMN). November 22 --- Elm Street turn (via the actual motorcade route taken by JFK that day). --------------------------------- Now, it would require a massive amount of tortured logic to conclude that the above newspaper reports truly indicate that the motorcade route was actually changed back and forth a total of five different times over the course of a six-day period. The route was never changed, and these two items below---which are identical---prove that fact (IMHO).... November 19 --- Elm Street turn (Both Dallas papers---the DMN and DTH). November 22 --- Elm Street turn (via the actual motorcade route taken by JFK that day).
  2. David Von Pein

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    They are wrong, certainly. But I don't think any of them are liars. But particularly Bellah's story is wrong. And provably so---via the 11/19 papers. (Unless, for some reason, Bellah wasn't provided the COMPLETE motorcade route until 11/21, which I guess is possible. But that doesn't prove the Elm dogleg WASN'T part of the original route. It would only indicate that some officers weren't privy to the full route until a couple days later.) BTW, Jim, do you have a copy of the Nov. 20 (Wednesday) DMN? I've always heard (including from you) that the route printed in that day's DMN showed no Elm turn. But I've never been able to find a copy of that paper online. Do you have it? If so, what exactly does it say re: the route? I'm just curious.
  3. David Von Pein

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    Just exactly how did I "misrepresent" the various DMN stories, Jim? Please cite for that charge. Also.... Since you think the route was changed AFTER the 19th, then how do you account for the Times Herald including the Elm turn in its Nov. 21st edition [below]? This is the very same route published by this same paper on the 19th. Were the 2 Dallas papers getting their info from completely different sources? Is that what you believe?
  4. David Von Pein

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    This is nothing but a blatant falsehood spouted by DiEugenio. I never once accused anyone of "lying" when it comes to this "Motorcade Route" topic.
  5. David Von Pein

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    Huh?? It doesn't show any such thing. The Main St. portion of the route is on this DMN map, plain as day.... Here's the complete DMN 11/22/63 front page.....
  6. David Von Pein

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    The "changed at the last moment [on the evening of Nov. 21st]" recollections attributed to Police Officer Sam Bellah are proven wrong by taking just one look at the November 19th Dallas newspapers. There was no "last minute change"---period. And this 11/19/63 Dallas Morning News article proves it....
  7. David Von Pein

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    But there's no PROOF whatsoever that any "change" actually was made to the motorcade route at all. The "change" resides mainly in the wishful-thinking imaginations of conspiracy advocates. One thing is a certainty --- the constant back-and-forth "changes" that Jim DiEugenio is talking about (re: the DMN reports of Nov. 16-22) are not "changes" in the actual motorcade route at all. And no reasonable person could possibly believe they do reflect "changes". The "Only On Main Street" reports from the DMN are simply not as detailed regarding the streets JFK was going to travel on. And it's especially silly for Jim to prop up the very first of those DMN reports --- which is this 11/16/63 article --- which only says "Main Street". But that 11/16 report was printed at a time when Jim KNOWS that the final motorcade route had not yet been revealed to anybody. The police and Secret Service didn't finalize the route until two days later, on Nov. 18. So for Jim to say (as he did yesterday) --- "On November 16th, the motorcade was going down Main Street, no doglegs" --- is just ridiculous, because the DMN could not have possibly even known, as of 11/16, about any possible "doglegs" the motorcade route would encounter on Houston or Elm Streets. And I don't think ANY other street names are mentioned AT ALL in that 11/16 DMN article. So why would Jim make an issue out of the two "dogleg" turns not being printed in that article, when it would appear that no other street names are mentioned at all, except "Main"? As a side note regarding the "breaches of security" that conspiracy theorists are always contending were rampant in Dealey Plaza on November 22.... I'd be willing to bet that President Kennedy's open-top car was taken down many streets in many U.S. cities in which "hazards" very similar to the Houston-to-Elm hairpin turn were, in fact, negotiated by the driver of Kennedy's limousine. And I know there have been instances during motorcade parades when the President's car actually came to a complete stop in the midst of throngs of spectators. And we need to look no further than Dallas on November 22nd to verify this fact---because on two separate occasions during the Dallas parade, JFK ordered the car to stop so that Kennedy could greet well-wishers, which he did. But since JFK wasn't shot during those two unscheduled motorcade stops, nobody ever says a word about that "breach of security" on the part of the Secret Service. And the day I find in my large JFK video collection the pre-11/22/63 clip of President Kennedy's heavy SS-100-X Lincoln limousine slowing down to a crawl to navigate a hairpin turn like the one his vehicle encountered at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets in Dallas, I'll be sure to post that video at this forum. But maybe somebody can beat me to it, because video or film footage of such a common occurrence during a Kennedy motorcade must surely be out there in a video vault somewhere.
  8. David Von Pein

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    That's yet another myth that won't die the death it deserves. It wasn't Rybka who was "called off". .... http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/11/secret-service.html#Lawton-And-Rybka
  9. David Von Pein

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/happenstance-or-conspiracy-part-1.html
  10. David Von Pein

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    The final selection of the motorcade route was definitely a "last few days decision", Ron. Without doubt. The Trade Mart wasn't even selected as the luncheon locale until Nov. 14. That's "last few days", to be sure.
  11. David Von Pein

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    Jim, You're just flat-out wrong about the "dogleg" turns onto Houston Street and Elm Street being "eliminated" on Wednesday, November 20, 1963. No such "elimination" of those two turns occurred at all. And I don't see how even you, a dedicated conspiracy theorist, can believe such a thing either---because in order for you to actually believe that those two turns were "eliminated" on Nov. 20th, you'd have to actually believe the motorcade route was changed twice after the Dallas Morning News published its "Houston to Elm" version of the motorcade route on Tuesday morning, November 19th. You'd have to believe the route was then changed on November 20th (with this change taking the cars straight down Main Street), and then you'd have to believe the route was changed back again to the same "Houston to Elm" version of the route that was previously reported in both Dallas papers on November 19th. That's kind of crazy if you ask me. The logical answer as to why the map of the parade route that appeared in this 11/22/63 edition of the Dallas Morning News didn't show the "dogleg" turns onto Houston and Elm Streets is because the map that was printed was fairly small in size, and it would have been a tight squeeze to fit the two short dogleg turns into a map of that size. (Although I suppose CTers can still argue that the two doglegs could still have been squeezed into that map, seeing as how the creators of this particular map did find room for all of the other turns along the motorcade route, e.g., Turtle Creek, Cedar Springs, Harwood, etc.) But, again, with the Elm Street turn being published in the papers on 11/19/63, I cannot see where the conspiracy believers can go with their argument that the motorcade route was changed around at the "last minute". As I said, the CTers would have to believe the route was changed TWICE after the Nov. 19 papers were published, with the second of these changes exactly mirroring the route that was made public on the 19th. And that's just wacky. Plus, let me also point out that members of the radio and television media were fully aware of the "Houston to Elm" turn as of at least mid-morning on November 22nd, which is a fact that would certainly tend to undermine the theory that the small map published on the front page of the Dallas Morning News that same morning (November 22) reflected an "elimination" of the Houston-to-Elm turn. As I discuss in Appendix 1 ("Additional Controversial Issues Surrounding The JFK Assassination") of "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" (on pages 421 and 422), both Bob Walker of WFAA-TV and Joe Long of KLIF-Radio narrated extensive live TV and radio coverage from Love Field as JFK arrived in the city of Dallas on Air Force One on 11/22/63 [see the two videos below]. Go to 28:15 ---- https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8UwZ588YcqILS0xWDZYeG9EWmc/view Go to 4:04 ---- https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0KFei3W7bGOVTZ1MzBybFZvTVk/view In each of those live broadcasts above, Walker and Long give a description of the motorcade route that the President will travel that day. In Walker's description, he says: "...it'll turn on Houston Street to Elm". In Long's KLIF report, he said: "The main route of travel will be west on Main to Houston, then through the Triple Underpass to Stemmons Freeway, and on to the Trade Mart." (And even though the words "Elm Street" were not spoken by Joe Long in that radio coverage, his description of the route implies the Houston-to-Elm turn, of course, because the only way to get "through the Triple Underpass" from "Houston" is by turning left on Elm from Houston.) In addition.... There is also this map of the Dallas motorcade route that was published in the Dallas Times Herald on Thursday evening, November 21, 1963, which clearly shows the Main to Houston and the Houston to Elm turns.... CLICK TO ENLARGE: So, in the final analysis (and after looking at all of the various motorcade descriptions and maps that were printed in the two Dallas newspapers starting on Saturday, November 16, 1963), it becomes fairly obvious what the answer to the "map" mystery is: Some of the maps (as well as the Nov. 16 DMN text description) published in the Dallas papers just simply didn't include all of the streets that President Kennedy was going to travel on during his motorcade through downtown Dallas. Because if that's not the answer, then we'd have to believe that the actual motorcade route was being changed practically every day from November 16th to the 22nd, with the route bouncing around like a tennis ball. Well, Jim, seeing as how I just destroyed the entire argument you were trying to make when you said this a little while ago.... "On November 16th, the motorcade was going down Main Street, no doglegs. On November 19th, the route described included the doglegs. But a day later, the doglegs were eliminated. And on the day of the assassination, the pictured route continued in that vein." ....I think it's a bit disingenuous on your part to claim that I am the one who is doing the "cherry picking" when it comes to this particular topic. With the introduction into the mix of the above motorcade map published in the 11/21/63 edition of the Dallas Times Herald, you are the one who is now going to have to "cherry pick" the various newspapers in order to keep your fantasy alive of the motorcade route ever being changed at all after the complete and finalized route was first printed in the Dallas papers on November 19th. Good luck playing your version of Motorcade Route Hopscotch what with that November 21st Times Herald map now staring you in the face too.* * And I realize you probably weren't even aware that the 11/21/63 map even existed before today (and I don't think I had ever seen that map prior to finding it online today either), but now that you can see that the Elm Street turn was being fully revealed to the public the day before President Kennedy went to Dallas, I don't see how you can continue to believe that the small scale map seen in the DMN on Nov. 22 is some kind of proof that the "doglegs were eliminated" [your quote] on November 20th. Can you continue to believe such a thing now, Jim?
  12. David Von Pein

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    Yeah....anything to avoid the obvious, I guess. (Just like my 2015 discussion with EF members re: the SBT.)
  13. David Von Pein

    The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

    Paul, And do you have any idea why Marina still, to this day, is saying she took the backyard pictures (despite the fact that she now thinks Lee was innocent and was framed as the patsy for JFK's murder)? Is she still afraid of being deported? .... "I was very nervous that day when I took the pictures," [Marina told author Gerald Posner]. "I can't remember how many I took, but I know I took them and that is what is important. It would be easier if I said I never took them, but that is not the truth." -- Page 106 of Gerald Posner's "Case Closed" And.... On November 30, 2000, Marina told author Vince Bugliosi that she took the backyard photos and she also re-confirmed for Bugliosi that Lee Oswald had taken a shot at General Edwin Walker: "Although...I did not come to interrogate Marina about the facts of the case, since this had already been done ad nauseam, a few references to factual matters were made. When she insisted on Oswald's innocence, suggesting he would never do such a murderous act, I reminded her that he had, in fact, attempted to murder Major General Edwin Walker, and she readily admitted he had, telling me she knew this because "Lee told me he did." But she hastened to add that the president was different because "Lee liked Kennedy." And [Fort Worth lawyer and friend of Bugliosi's] Jack Duffy, who has studied the assassination for years and leans toward the conspiracy theory, asked Marina if she had taken "the backyard photos" of Oswald holding the Carcano rifle. "Yes," she answered evenly, "I did." "That settles that issue," Duffy said." -- Page 1487 of "Reclaiming History" by Vincent Bugliosi And so, Paul, would I be correct in assuming then that you do NOT think that President Kennedy's head is moving initially FORWARD at the instant he was struck by the head shot? And would you agree that a movement of the President's head FORWARD at the critical moment of impact would, indeed, tend to indicate that the bullet that caused that forward movement was likely fired from BEHIND the President? And can I also assume, Paul, based on your last comment quoted above, that you are also of the opinion that the autopsy photo of JFK's head below is a fake and has been altered in some manner (despite the conclusion reached by the HSCA on this matter [at Page 41 of HSCA Vol. 7])?
  14. David Von Pein

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    I have no idea why anyone would say they were "introduced to the route" only 24 hours prior to the motorcade----because that is kind of crazy given the PROVABLE FACT that the Houston-to-Elm turn was announced IN THE PAPERS on November 19. So the press and the public knew it on Nov. 19---we KNOW that for a fact (unless you want to now claim that the DMN and Times Herald papers that appear in the WC volumes are phony and fake newspapers). As far as Chief Batchelor specifically is concerned, we know (via Page 32 of the Warren Report) that he, HIMSELF, was riding along with SS Agents Sorrels and Lawson on the dry run of the motorcade route that was done on November 18. So Batchelor was certainly aware of the "dogleg" route as of that date. Why he would claim otherwise can only elicit a shrug from this writer.
  15. David Von Pein

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    But since Kenneth O'Donnell didn't officially decide to hold the luncheon at the Trade Mart until that exact day you just mentioned---November 14th [see WCR, p.31]---then of course there was no dogleg as of that date. There was no definitive motorcade route at all as of November 14th. The final motorcade route wasn't announced until "the afternoon of November 18th" [WCR; p.32]. That's ridiculous, and Vince Palamara has to know it. The Houston-to-Elm dogleg was described in the November 19th Dallas newspapers, which makes perfect sense considering what I just said above about the route being officially announced on Nov. 18. Therefore, the dogleg was part of the motorcade route as of November 18th, otherwise the Dallas Morning News couldn't have printed the route in its paper on the morning of the 19th [as seen in CE1363]. Who does Palamara think he's kidding? Some conspiracy myths just refuse to die, don't they? And "The Motorcade Route Was Changed" junk is apparently one such myth that I guess will be with us until the end of time. More: http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/Was JFK's Motorcade Route Changed At The Last Minute?
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