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John Butler

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  1. Yeah, I thought that for the longest time. But, if you look close there is a gap between his hands wider than a, as we use to say, pop bottle unless he was holding it end to end horizontally. All of the images I can see (and that is one heck of a problem with the poor imagery available) it is something wider, perhaps wider than a bottle. To me this is an important idea. I am being led into a wild, speculation every time I look at PM in Weigman, Darnell, and John Martin. The speculation has to do with what he is holding. Buell Frazier mentioned in the interview no one had a camera. Or, at least he didn't notice. That looked suspiciously like a practiced answer. There is no way to confirm that with a yeah or nay. I also noted that Frazier omitted PM or Oswald being there on the landing with him. Now, that is suspicious since 2 of the 3 films put a person there we call PM. If you are interested I'll type out my wild speculation in detail. I don't think it does any harm to the PM notion. Thanks for your earlier reply.
  2. Andrej, Excellent point as always. 5'9". And, who was that height as measured at his death? PM/Harvey Oswald. The only Oswald you see in most media. Lee's imaginary is almost entirely removed from the record. Do you have an opinion on what PM / Oswald is holding in his hands?
  3. Bart Kamp, PM has something in his hands. I use to think it was a coke. I now think it is a camera. The frame above informs the notion. There seems to be some sort of glow in his hands or more correctly between his hands. He appears to be holding a 2-handed camera holder used with cameras in those days to steady the camera. His hands are always positioned for such a device in Weigman, Darnell, and John Martin. What's you opinion?
  4. John Butler

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    Well, what about those missing motorbikes. I don't mean the two that are associated with the alleged Lead Motorcycle Policemen. There are only 3 shown in the McIntyre Photo and 3 shown in the Bell Film. I mean the 5 missing motorbikes in the Altgens 7 photo. If you make a continuum of Altgens 7, a frame from the Bell film showing the Triple Underpass, and the McIntyre Photo you will arrive at a sequence that is just a few seconds in length with the images of one following the other. First there would be Altgens 7, the Bell frame, and then the McIntyre photo. What you will see is that the Altgens 7 photo does not have any motorbikes moving toward the Stemmons Freeway. Since the Jesse Curry vehicle is just about to enter under the Triple Underpass in the photo we should see 5 motorcycles of the Lead Motorcycle Policemen. But, we don't. The reason is that Atlgens 7 is of the same quality as Altgens 5 and Altgens 6. They are fakes. We then see 3 motorbikes in Bell and 3 motorbikes in McIntryre. Where is the 5 missing motorbikes in Altgens 7. Failing that where is the 3 motorbikes we see in the other media. This little exercise tells us we don't actually know what happened down there as the motorcade passed through.
  5. John Butler

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    Yeah, it may not even be the Bell film. It could be a military photographer film disguised as the Bell Film. I have just got to say this thread needs to be kept on the front page for awhile. There are great people saying great things here, even the ones you don't care much for. There is more information on the motorcade, both pro and con, found anywhere that should surely interest most folks. It is well worth the time for someone to review this tread. I encourage casual viewers to take the time to read this read in depth.
  6. John Butler

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    I need to make a typing correction. No one has noticed it but it needs to be fixed as a matter of honesty. For some unknown, moronic reason I often times time a q or a g and, a g or a q. Couple that with a faulty memory then you have this. The mistake is Sgt. S. G. Bellah. It should be Sgt. S. Q. Bellah or Sgt. Samuel Q. Bellah. So, when you read in the comments Sgt. S. G. Bellah it should be Sgt. S. Q. Bellah. With that out of the way you can blow up this photo and see a very vague image of Dallas Police Officer J. C. White. But, you don't see what he saw that day. This is another reason some folks including myself have suspicions about this photo. There is no train on the Triple Underpass that Officer White testified too. White said he saw a long, slow freight train pass through and he saw or heard nothing about the assassination. This has been discussed several times on this forum I believe. It could be the reason that you don't see a train there is the Triple Underpass is something like 100 to 120 ft. wide. I train on a track near the east side probably would not be visible. There was a train on the tracks during the assassination and you can see that train in the following: 1. Mark Bell Film 2. John Martin Film 3. Malcom Couch Film 4. Robert Hughes Film 5. Wilma Bond photo Rather than repeat writing anything else you can go to this site for more info: http://jfkrunningthegauntlet.com/2017/10/16/the-ghost-train-of-dealey-plaza-part-i/
  7. John Butler

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    DVP, I have already answered that question in my comments. Again. The action of the 3 motorbikes in the Bell film is no more than a couple of seconds from the action of the 3 motorbikes in the McIntyre photo. They need to be in tune. 3 bikes shown in Bell and 3 bikes shown in McIntyre. Only 3 bikes are shown in Bell and no sign of 5 motorbikes. There should be 5 there since they are some distance from the turn. The question is not that important. It is just a distraction. The real question is who is the outside bike rider in McIntyre. Is it Sgt. Stavis Ellis of the Lead Motorcycles or is it Sgt. S. G. Bellah of the Advance Motorcycles. On that question depends a reading of McIntyre as fake or not. Maybe someone out there can go back and look at that older thread which has Robin Unger's posts and determine who that is?
  8. John Butler

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    I see no one has taken the challenge to identify the Motorcycle Policemen in the McIntyre photo. There’s probably a good reason for that. I ran across this topic in older threads. Another proof the Zapruder film has been faked Guest James H. Fetzer, January 22, 2012 in JFK Assassination Debate (This is a really interesting discussion. Folks should go back and review this from 2012) In this thread on page 4 of the comments Robin Unger posted this photo and identification. Posted January 25, 2012 Looking back the other way In McIntire Chaney is seen still inside the underpass.  In a later post of this photo he has a closeup of the outside rider identified as Sgt. Ellis. The Bell film is mentioned as information on the points they were making. I went back and reviewed the Bell film frame by frame. 3 motorcycle riders are shown and not 5 anywhere in the film. There should be 5 shown somewhere there since they were not near the turn or shouldn’t be from the time sequence between Bell and McIntyre. Bell shows the 3 motorcycle riders in a peculiar fashion. They are shown in one spot past the triple underpass as being stationary. The presidential limousine and accompanying vehicles move down Elm Street and pass under the Triple Underpass. Meanwhile, the 3 motorbikes do not appear to be moving. I could accept Robin Unger’s analysis if I knew what source he used to identify Sgt. Ellis. Did someone recognize the outside rider as Sgt. Ellis or did Unger just assume as many others have this is a remnant of the 5 Lead Motorcycle Policeman and provide Lead Motorcycle names. Since, there are only 3 motorcycle cops shown then I am back to wondering is this the Advanced or Lead Motorcycle Policemen? The peculiar fashion they are shown in Bell raises suspicions. This is an important point. If Unger is correct, then this a true picture of events in Dealey Plaza. If not, then it is just another fake. The first assumption may be the correct one since I can find no obvious signs of photo editing. This is a really sharp and clear photo that can be magnified and looked at closely. Other than the questionable identification of the 3 motorbike riders there are no obvious alterations. If there is then they would be very well done and professional.
  9. John Butler

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    David Von Pein, I am going to withdraw my agreement with your position. New information has led to another conclusion. Again, I have to correct something I wrote. Let's go back to what was originally said, “I did find where the 5 Lead Motorcycles did separate into two groups in the Marie Muchmore film. The other assassination films are uninformative. When the Lead motorbikes turned onto Houston Street from Main Street they separate into two groups. First, there were 3 motorbikes making the turn. They were closely followed by the other two. This offers weak evidence that this was there procedure for making the turns that they needed to make. First, there would be a group of 3 bikes and then there would be two bikes. If this is case then McIntyre does not show a group of two following the group of 3. David Von Pein is saying that the missing two turned first towards the Stemmons Freeway. There may be away to solve this small argument. Identify who the 3 motorbike cops are: Advance Motorcycle Policemen: Sgt. S. G. Bellah Glen C. McBride J. S. Garrick Lead Motorcycle Policemen: Leon E. Grey E. D. “Buddy” Brewer Harold B. Freeman W. G. Lumpkin Sgt. Stavis Ellis The two outside men in both formations (screen right) are: Glen McBride Sgt. Stavis Ellis” What needs to be changed is Glen McBride to Sgt. S. G. Bellah. In the Zapruder film in Z frame 63 the outside rider in the Advanced Motorcycle Policemen is not Glen McBride but, Sgt. S. G. Bellah. You can see that the outside rider has stripes or chevrons on his sleeve indicating he is a Sgt. He is not Glen McBride. This changes what I said earlier about the 3 motorbike cops being the Lead Motorcycle Policemen. It is now possible that the outside rider in the McIntyre photo is not Sgt. Stavis Ellis but, maybe Sgt. S. G. Bellah. The outside rider in the motorbike formation in the photo McIntyre (photo right) needs to be identified between Sgts. Stavis Ellis and S. G. Bellah. This could be the Advanced Motorcycle Policemen with Sgt. S. G. Bellah as the outside rider. This restores the notion that this maybe an altered photo. Can anyone help with this identification? Identifying this Motorcycle Policemen will end this contention.
  10. John Butler

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    Sorry, I have to correct something I wrote. I did find where the 5 Lead Motorcycles did separate into two groups in the Marie Muchmore film. The other assassination films are uninformative. When the Lead motorbikes turned onto Houston Street from Main Street they separate into two groups. First, there were 3 motorbikes making the turn. They were closely followed by the other two. This offers weak evidence that this was there procedure for making the turns that they needed to make. First, there would be a group of 3 bikes and then there would be two bikes. If this is case then McIntyre does not show a group of two following the group of 3. David Von Pein is saying that the missing two turned first towards the Stemmons Freeway. There may be away to solve this small argument. Identify who the 3 motorbike cops are: Advance Motorcycle Policemen: Sgt. S. G. Bellah Glen C. McBride J. S. Garrick Lead Motorcycle Policemen: Leon E. Grey E. D. “Buddy” Brewer Harold B. Freeman W. G. Lumpkin Sgt. Stavis Ellis The two outside men in both formations (screen right) are: Glen C. McBride Sgt. Stavis Ellis The outside man in McIntyre looks like Glen C. McBride. Is there anyone still around who can identify these men? Maybe Mary Moorman?
  11. John Butler

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    Instead of jumping to the unwarranted conclusion that there must have been photo fakery, why not consider the obvious answer? With that obvious answer being: There are some additional motorcycles in front of the 3 cycles we see in the McIntire picture, and those additional cycles are simply out of the camera range of Mel McIntire's camera. Plus....ask yourself: Why would anyone want to alter the number of motorcycles seen in this photograph? .... Thanks David Von Pein for making my point! There should be 5 motobikes here. They rode in formation. Two are missing. We can't assume anything other than what we see in this photo. Or, you can assume whatever you want. FWIW... I count eight (8) motorcycles riding in front of Chief Curry's Lead Car in this motorcade photo.... There are 8 motorbikes. 3 advance motorbikes followed by 5 lead motorbikes. When you do get to see the 5 lead motorbikes in various media they always ride together and not as a group of 3. I don't know why the McIntyre photo is altered. There doesn't seem to be a good reason for it except to match other films and photos. Can't have a big discrepancy hanging out there for all to see. Edited 5 hours ago by David Von Pein
  12. John Butler

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    David Lifton says: "As the 3 cycle officers who led the motorcade emerged from the Triple Underpass, a photographer--McIntyre (not sure of spelling)--was standing somewhere on a grassy island just to the west of the TU--and he snapped an important photograph. It shows the 3 cyclists leading the way, with the chaos erupting behind them--i.e., with JFK's car, Curry's vehicle and others, now racing away from Dealey Plaza, and just emerging from under the TU. If you blow up that photograph, one can get a pretty clear image of those 3 cycle cops, and the general impression that I got (and still "get") is that they are smiling broadly. Perhaps its just the sunny weather? Sure, that's possible, and yes, its possible that they are completely unaware of what's just happened; but I think (as the saying goes) a picture is worth a thousand words, and that further study is warranted. " There should be 5 motorcycle cops there not 3. The 3 Advance motorbikes are in front of the 5 Lead motorbikes. The three motorbikes are the ones we see in Zapruder. The 5 motorbikes come next are not seen in Zapruder and precede the lead car with Jesse Curry and then presidential limousine. Most photos and films show 3. Bell shows 5 in a few frames and also shows 3 as representative of the 5 lead motorbikes. 3 Advance motorbikes in McIntyre shows you that someone has altered that photo. The question is where are the 5 Lead Motorcycles in McIntyre?
  13. Apologies to Bart Kamp for sticking my nose in here. I understand Bart's frustration with the Sarah Stanton Red Herring issue. But, Jim Hargrove seems to be an honest fellow and if "his drivel" is drivel then it should be pointed out in a more tactful manner. I had a similar conversation with Tommy Graves in which he kept badgering me about Sarah Stanton being Prayer Man. I'm with Bart Kamp, it is a ludicrous thought. Speaking of T.G. he asked a question that I didn't answer. I missed it concentrating on Sarah Stanton. I said you can't prove anyone fired a shot from the 6th floor Sniper's Nest. I want to answer that here even though it is off topic. 5th Floor witnesses: Harold Norman- Said 3 shots came from directly above him and he described these in detail. He didn't change his testimony over time. One solid testimony. Bonnie Ray Williams- First said he heard two shots (didn't specify where they were from) when the presidential limousine turned into the Main and Houston Street intersection. He later changed this during 3 more statements until the FBI was statisfied. An iffy testimony based on changing statements. James "Junior" Jarman- Junior initially agreed with Harold and Bonnie that shots came from above their position. He later changed this, when then Congressman Gerald Ford asked about the shooting, to shots that came from low and to the left. A changed testimony offering something different. 4th Floor Witnesses: They were within 40 feet of the 6th floor Sniper's Nest. Victoria Adams- Heard shots coming from the west in the direction of the Grassy Knoll. Sandra Styles- At first said she didn't know where the shots came from. Later, she said they came from the area of the Grassy Knoll. Dorothy Garner- Heard 3 shots while the limousine was under trees in front of the TSBD. Elsie Dorman- Heard shots coming from the Court Records Building. This is similar to Junior Jarman. Under "Mervyn Hagger Standards" of just the facts and legal proof based upon evidence beyond a reasonable doubt then you can not prove anyone fired a rifle from the 6th floor regardless of what witnesses on Houston and Elm said.
  14. John Butler

    Oswald's Rifle Skills?

    Evan, It is great to hear from an American Patriot. Pass on to your grandson my thanks for this service. Not everyone is willing to put themselves on the line.
  15. John Butler

    Who changed the motorcade route?

    James DiEugenio, Thanks for the visual. I had missed that bout. I will look it up on Utube and watch the whole thing. I get your point but, the bout shown was absolutely delightful. I can't remember a time that I was not a boxing fan. Thanks again
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