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John Butler

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  1. Jim, Your opinion is in tune with others that I have read several years ago when I first ran across this. Her story is unbelievable to most including myself. Rationally one has to take a step back from it considering the source. However, the irrational part of myself seems to want to hang on to this story because it has elements that might connect to the wider scheme of things. The story of Oswald (Which one?)approaching Mary Hollies on the bus might have to do with what was really happening at the TSBD in that outpost of CIA gun-running, dope trafficking, and school book delivering folks. Some of the statements she said he said about assassinating Kennedy could be to work his way into some kind of scheme there. That's a bit different than the usual take of putting words in Oswald's mouth to connect him to the actual shooting. What Mary Hollies has said can be read several different ways. Odd connections pop up in this story. Oswald caught VD, gonorrhea, in Japanese whorehouses which was treated and marked as "in the line of duty". Was he being trained as a seducer of women? Silly ideas like that were around at that time. Being able to seduce women a la James Bond would be a handy skill for an agent trying to work his way into an organization. Was he attempting to get close to Mary Hollies for the purpose of investigating the book companies role in the assassination. His statements about his willingness to shoot Kennedy may have been a ruse. This is just idle speculation. But, there has to be some reason Oswald was at the TSBD? Why was Oswald sent into the TSBD? What was the rational he was given to get him inside as a government agent. Was he trying to work his way into whatever was going on through people like Mary Hollies or others in other book companies?
  2. Jim, I would like to get your opinion on the Mary Hollies post made earlier. I just found this recently among things I had collected years ago. I realized this is why Bonnie Ray Williams is my main candidate for the black man on the 6th floor. I had forgotten Mary and what she said in 2011. But subconsciously, this was the reasoning for the suspicion that Williams was on the 6th floor. Mary claims to be on the 5th floor even though there are photos showing a woman sitting in a window on the 4th floor. If my memory serves, Junior Jarman said he saw a woman sitting in the window as he went down to the west end of the building on the 5th floor. If Mary can be believed she has identified two of the three men seen on the 6th floor, Bonnie Ray Williams and a Lee Oswald (the double). 4 people at the Nash Rambler (If that can be believed) and the double leaving the TSBD later indicates that there very well may have been 4 people on the 6th floor. This large of a number requires an efficient, secretive, get-away plan. The passenger elevator serves well for that. Four people leaving by stairs, or freight elevator, or fire escape is very noticeable. As Richard Carr indicates when he said he saw 3 men leaving the rear of the TSBD. This was "immediately" after the shooting. And, that raises speculation that they may have left before the shooting leaving Oswald (the double) to do the clean up. Their show display was over. Mary Hollies identifies why the automatic freight elevator is on the 5th floor. It was brought down by Williams from the 6th floor. Truly sees it on the 5th floor and states both elevators were there because the bottoms were even. It can only have went down after Truly and Baker goes to the 7th floor. Jack Daugherty is supposedly lurking somewhere on the 5th floor. If so, that makes a total of 6 people (this includes Alice Foster) there during the shooting. Any could have taken the freight elevator down. As far as the FBI goes, it is the most corrupt government agency for the last (nearly) 100 years. J. Edgar Hoover became the Director of the Bureau of Investigation in 1924 (renamed the FBI in 1935). The FBI's real role in government is as a political enforcement tool for variously, the Director, the Attorney General, or the President or whoever has the power to control what the FBI does. Criminal Investigation is the cover used by the FBI or the public's consumption. I say for nearly the last 100 years because J. Edgar Hoover was as corrupt or more corrupt than most in government. The FBI has not changed since his time. If an FBI agent didn't toe the line he was out. By 1963, Hoover had 39 years to enforce this kind of discipline. FBI agents at the time of the assassination had no problem with coercing, intimidating, and forcing witnesses to say what they wanted. In the case of Richard Carr, I believe he copied or had dictated to him what he was to say in the 2-3-64 statement. And, later on at the Shaw trial he felt free to say what he saw. There is no way to prove that. It is speculation. But, someone who reads this may find a way to validate it.
  3. In January, 2011 the 6th Floor Museum posted a conversation with Mary Hollies. She said the following about Lee Oswald and Bonnie Ray Williams: “Floor five and six were all storage, warehouse. It was all open. It had wooden floors. You could hear the sound very easily, especially through the elevator shaft” “I spent a lot of time on the 4th and 5th floors. When it was announced that the president was near, “Alice (Foster) and I said “let’s go up to the fifth floor”. We rang for the elevator and Lee was on the elevator but he didn’t stop for us. He kept going. So we were kind of miffed with him, and we hollered up the shaft. “Hey, you could’ve stopped for us. But he kept on going to the sixth floor, and then he locked the elevator up. When we finally got to the 5th floor we opened a window and we were sitting on the window ledge and we heard clack..clank..clank..and someone was coming down the noisy elevator. It was a black dude coming down (Bonnie Ray Williams). We went to the window and sat there. We had the perfect place to watch.” (Some researchers believe that Mary Hollies was on the 4th floor but she insists that she was on the 5th floor and later moved to the 4th) We could see the president and Jackie coming down Houston and then…. we thought a cannon had gone off. We saw the president slump and we saw Jackie getting on the back of the car. She was hysterical. “I believe it was three shots, two or three. It was definitely not one.” “Alice noticed some smoke over on the little hill that was there. She saw smoke over there but I don’t know that it was a gun being fired. I don’t know what it was. Every one was going crazy. “Like a chicken with its head cut off.” From an earlier post from Duke Lane in 2007: “The fact of the matter is that Williams was probably on the sixth floor as late as 12:27-12:28. This is based on Jarman or Norman's testimony that they did not leave the front of the building (where they were seen and noticed by Roy Truly) until after they had heard that the motorcade was on Main Street. That could not have been before 12:22, when the pilot car first indicated that it was on Main Street, and could have been as late as 12:27 when the motorcade was again announced as being on Main.” When you put these two together the suspicion that Bonnie Ray Williams is the black man seen on the 6th floor becomes stronger. And, if you can believe Mary Hollies it becomes a certainty. Bonnie Ray with dust (some thought saw dust) in his hair could very well be the man seen by Amos Euins who first said he saw a white man there but latter denied that and said it was a white spot on his head that he was referring to. Euins had told a reporter, James Underwood, that the man he saw was black. This was noted by a policeman in his notebook at that time. The Oswald they saw may have been the double and was not recognized as such due to the darkeness of the elevator shaft, or the quick passage up the shaft or, having his back turned. Oswald didn’t reply indicating there was a difference in voice quality between the two Oswalds. This was the same kind of thing mentioned by others. There must have been a strong resemblance between the two for someone such as Mary Hollies to see an Oswald in the Oswald double who was on the 6th floor. As an aside, there are two things that fit my peculiar notions. One is that shooting occurred on Houston Street not on Elm for the Zapruder events (I actually think the intersection rather than Houston Street). Strange, isn't it. The other is that she didn't hear shots coming from the floor above her.
  4. There is an interesting thread going back to 2007. Eddie Piper By Greg Parker, December 4, 2007 in JFK Assassination Debate Some of this is about Bonnie Ray Williams and I thought this was interesting since Bonnie Ray is my candidate for the black man on the 6th floor: Duke Lane Super Member Members 1,401 posts Gender:Male Location:USA Interests:Universally loved and admired for his keen wit, sharp intellect, loathsome egoism, and awe-inspiring self-delusion, Lane studies the JFK assassination from afar, offers few opinions, and generally keeps to himself. Report post Posted April 25, 2008 If one reads closely the testimonies of Williams, Norman and Jarman, one finds that it's not only impossible for anyone to have seen these guys on the fifth floor very long before the shooting, but also highly improbable for whoever was on the sixth floor to have been Lee Oswald. The latter is due to the apparent fact that Bonnie Ray Williams was upstairs much later than he ever testified, and his failure to have identified Oswald as having been there fairly well exonerates him. After all, what was Oswald going to do to him for ratting him out? Is that necessarily so? Consider that, when Williams got down to the fifth floor, Junior Jarman had noticed that he'd had a white dusty or powdery substance in his hair. There is no actual representation of how much of that substance was in his hair. Was it a small spot, say 2 by 2 inches, and only lightly dusted, or did it heavily cover his head? If the latter, could someone have mistaken Williams for being "elderly?" Jarman only said that he'd noticed the substance in Williams' hair after the shooting, but he does not state that it was not there prior. Now, if we're to believe that a couple of tiny shells kicked loose enough dust to fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor (the floor of the sixth) some (ten?) feet above Williams' head while he kneeled with his head out the window in sufficient quantity after falling that distance - and presumably dissipating at least somewhat - then and only then can that substance have come from the fifth story ceiling cum sixth story floor. The fact of the matter is that Williams was probably on the sixth floor as late as 12:27-12:28. This is based on Jarman or Norman's testimony that they did not leave the front of the building (where they were seen and noticed by Roy Truly) until after they had heard that the motorcade was on Main Street. That could not have been before 12:22, when the pilot car first indicated that it was on Main Street, and could have been as late as 12:27 when the motorcade was again announced as being on Main. Word could not have filtered all the way down Main Street and into Dealey Plaza for the two to have gleaned that information from "the buzz of the crowd," although it is possible that someone nearby to the TSBD heard it over a police radio and word then filtered through the crowd there, or that there was a police radio near enough to the front of the TSBD for the two to hear, but in either case, that information could only have come from a radio broadcast. Jarman and Norman left the front of the TSBD at about the same time as Danny Arce went to meet his friend at the parking lot at Record Street, a short block away, and then walk to Main Street to watch the parade go by. That walk only takes about 1½ minutes. This is evidenced by Roy Truly's testimony that he'd thought he'd seen Hank and Junior crossing Houston with Danny. Either time would have been sufficient for all three of them to get to their respective locations. Anyway, they went around the back of the TSBD and rode the freight elevator upstairs to the 6th floor. Jarman estimated that this was at 12:26 or 12:28 if memory serves. Jarman also testified that Williams met them after they had arrived, although Norman said that he wasn't certain whether Williams was already there when they'd arrived, or if he'd come afterward (but he certainly did join up with them at some point!). We also know from Roy Truly's testimony that, when he and Officer Baker had gotten to the elevator shaft, both elevators were at the fifth floor. This jibes with the fact that Hank and Junior said that they'd taken the freight elevator to the fifth floor, and that Williams testified that he had ridden the passenger elevator first to the sixth floor, and then back down to the fifth floor when he decided to go downstairs. There is, as you might guess, much more to this story, which I'll get around to telling. Immediately, however, it goes to show that it is possible if not likely that the "elderly Negro" on the sixth floor was Bonnie Ray Williams with some "white stuff" in his hair, both because at some point later he did have the "white stuff" there, and because he was on the sixth floor almost right until the shooting. If that's true - if Williams was upstairs, near a window, with others not matching or even coming close to his description being seen in that and other windows - then Williams saw and very possibly was being "held hostage" by the shooter(s). The fact that he didn't say he'd seen Oswald up there is strong evidence that Oswald wasn't up there, for what did he have to lose - what could he possibly be afraid that a dead man was going to do to him or his family - by saying he'd seen him? Rowland, incidentally, estimated the time he'd seen the man who "seemed to me an elderly Negro" was at about 12:15, just before he noticed the other man with a rifle in the west window, which he estimated by hearing a police radio nearby (!see above about the motorcade on Main!) announcing that the parade was on or around Turtle Creek or somewhere in that vicinity. Even Bonnie Ray admitted to being upstairs at that time, "perhaps" even as late as 12:20 or so, which certainly encompasses 12:15. Greg Parker disputed this later.
  5. Ron, Although I favor the passenger elevator theory based on the need for secrecy and not being seen, I'm moving more toward the elevator theory as a possibility for a quick escape. According to Richard Carr's Clay Shaw Trial testimony 3 people were seen coming onto Houston Street from the back of the TSBD. If correct these 3 people, two of which got into the Nash Rambler station wagon and the third walked south on Houston, are members of the plot. The third person walking south is the person Carr claimed to have seen on the top floor. This is the same vehicle that picked up an Oswald identified by Roger Craig as Lee Harvey Oswald. 3 people must have had a quick way to get to the first floor rear of the TSBD, a fourth person could have walked down the steps and met Truly / Baker. The fire escape, the only other way out of the building, has a low probability of being an escape exit based on Carr's information. I would say generally a sniper team is made of two men, a shooter and a spotter to correct the shooting. However, the Dealey Plaza assassination was a different thing all together. There had to be coordination between sniping teams. This requires a radio man or communication extra person to monitor radio traffic. This was a well thought out operation. I would say a 4th man was added to protect the sniping team from interference. To keep someone from interfering with the sniping team. Say, someone on the 5th floor to control the elevators and have them ready for a possible escape.
  6. People have said this numerous times. The photos clinch what people were saying. There is always something good coming from Prayer-Man.Com. You are getting me to the point where I am spoiled and expecting more and more good things from Kamp and Co.
  7. The language in the 2-3-64 handwritten statement by Richard Carr does not seem to be the language of a construction worker. Rather, it seems that it could be the language of a better educated person say, a FBI agent. The story, as written flows, as if it had been practiced or dictated. The language pattern is that of an educated person. In mitigation, the educational system of the US was more effective in educating people of that era then it is today. Regardless, the description there varies greatly from what is testified to by Carr at the Clay Shaw Trial which ended in March, 1969. The location of the vehicle, the number of people involved, their race or ethnicity, and what floor the hatted man was on are different. These differences seem greater than a simple memory lapse or, confusion brought on by time and tide. Jim Marrs noted that Carr in a taped interview said the following: Carr’s statements at the Clay Shaw trial differ radically, in my opinion, from years earlier FBI statements. From the Shaw Trial: ” Q: Would you tell us what you observed. A: Should I point it out, sir? Q: Yes. A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this. Q: Which way was the station wagon facing? A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north. Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated? A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston. The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from the driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his shoulder as if he was being followed. Q: Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give this information to any law enforcement agencies? A: Yes, I did.” Based on this, I conclude that the later statements by Carr at the Clay Shaw Trial are more truthful and explain what Carr actually saw without interference from the FBI. The events that happened to Carr over time indicate that someone was really interested in what he said and wanted to keep it in tune with his FBI statements to the point of his death.
  8. This is from the Clay Shaw trial in 1969. It makes everything clear as mud when compared to Bart's handwritten info. Carr said, "Q: Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give this information to any law enforcement agencies? A: Yes, I did.” I don't disagree with Bart's info, the hand written copy. It verifies the FBI statement. The difference between the two Rambler events described in the FBI statements and the trial statements is significant and needs an explanation. Jim Hargrove's notion is time and distance has distorted Carr's recollections of the event. And, J. Edgar Hoover had no reason to change the testimony. Hoover and his henchmen, being the master cover up specialists, in my mind are always doubtful. Bart's hand written statement by Carr does throw a monkey wrench into the gears. But, after re-reading Jim Marrs I see no reason to doubt what Carr said at the Clay Shaw trial either. Carr, in Crossfire tells you what his relationship to the FBI was and the hardships he suffered for saying Lee Harvey Oswald was not the man on the 6th floor. From the Shaw Trial: ” Q: Would you tell us what you observed. A: Should I point it out, sir? Q: Yes. A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this. Q: Which way was the station wagon facing? A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north. Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated? A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston. [This is comment is mine. This is a total of 4 men at the Nash Rambler parked by the TSBD. 3 from the TSBD, a Latin driver, and no sign of a young negro driver. They pickup an Oswald on Elm Street and this makes a possible 4 man team on the 6th floor. Others could be added such as the driver, whoever arranged boxes, and manipulated the power, others of your choice.] The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from the driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his shoulder as if he was being followed. Q: Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give this information to any law enforcement agencies? A: Yes, I did.”
  9. Jim, What do I think? I think Richard Randolph Carr was lucky to survive the Warren Commission and HSCA era. In Jim Marrs’ Crossfire, 2013 ed, on page 308-309 is interesting information that can be related to what you are asking me. According to what Marrs wrote in Crossfire, Richard Carr was an honest and upright person who was not intimidated or coerced by the FBI. According to Marrs in a taped interview, Carr had this kind of relationship with the FBI: Carr moved to Wyoming after repeated harassment. There he was shot at and found dynamite in his Carr. After testifying at the Clay Shaw trial in 1969 he was attacked and stabbed in the back in Atlanta, Georgia. He only survived because he killed his attacker. “No doubt anything coming out of the FBI in this case has to be approached warily, but I really see no reason for Hoover to have faked this version. What do you think?” I think Carr’s FBI statement of 2/4/64 was manipulated and changed. Particularly, in the areas that disagree with his statements at the Shaw trial. I believe there were things that Carr knew that J. Edgar and his hencemen did not want the public to know. As an example the man Carr saw was moved from the 6th floor to the 5th floor. The story of the Nash Rambler’s location that doesn’t match is another. There were 4 men at one time at the Nash Rambler rather than 1 and there was no young negro involved simply a dark complected man possibly a Latin. What happened to Carr after the assassination advances the notion that there was things that he saw and knew that was not acceptable to the authorities. The FBI couldn’t control him. He was turned over to the assassins.
  10. Jim, John Armstrong should reconsider his information on Richard Carr. There are several things in the "Escape from the 6th floor plan" that is different from his testimony at the Clay Shaw trial in 1969. Compare what John wrote with the portions of the trial transcript I provide below. He may want to look at this and include it in his essay. John Armstrong said: “Richard Randolph Carr saw a man looking out the top floor of the Book Depository moments before the shooting. Carr, like Carolyn Walther, said the man was wearing a light brown coat. He described the man as having an athletic build, wearing horn rim glasses, and a hat. A few minutes after the assassination Carr saw the same man walking toward him on Houston, constantly looking back over his shoulder. The man turned east on Commerce St, walked one block to Record St., and got into a 1961 or 1962 light colored Nash Rambler station wagon. I believe the man wearing the brown coat drove this vehicle north on Record St., turned left on Elm, and stopped in front of the grassy knoll. Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig saw the Nash Rambler stop, heard a loud whistle, and watched as LEE Oswald hurried down the grassy knoll and got into this car at 12:40 PM. This incident occurred at the same time that HARVEY Oswald (the man accused of killing President Kennedy) was riding on a city bus, driven by Cecil McWatters, several blocks east of the Book Depository. LEE Oswald (white shirt) and the man wearing the brown jacket were seen together on the 6th floor of the TSBD (circa 12:30 PM). Ten minutes later (circa 12:40 PM) they were together in the Nash Rambler station wagon as the car quickly left Dealy Plaza.” This information provided by John Armstrong is different from the testimony of Richard Carr at the Clay Shaw trial in 1969. The number of people Carr saw and where he saw the Nash Rambler differs from what Armstrong provides. Perhaps, Armstrong should consider reading the trial transcript for Richard Carr. “A: Yes, I was on the Seventh Floor of the New Courthouse Building that was under con- struction at that time, located on Houston and Commerce, facing Dealey Plaza. Q: Approximately what time were you on the Seventh Floor of that building facing Dealey Plaza? A: Sir, I can't recall the exact time, but it was at the time that the parade was coming down towards Dealey Plaza. I did not have a watch at the time. Q: Were you in a position where you could see the parade? A: Yes, sir. Q: Do you recall seeing anything unusual happening? A: Yes, I do. Q: Would you tell us what happened. A: At the time the parade came down towards -- going to the School Book Depository, Dealey Plaza would have been to my left where I was standing, and at the Fifth Floor of the School Book Depository I noticed a man at the third window, this man was dressed -- he had on a light hat, and I saw this man later going down Houston Street, to the corner of Commerce, and then turned toward town on Commerce, and at that time before this happened I heard a single shot which sounded like a small arms, maybe a pistol, and I immediately, immediately there was a slight pause and immediately after that I heard three rifle shots in succession, they seemed to be fired from an automatic rifle and they came – “ ” Q: Would you tell us what you observed. A: Should I point it out, sir? Q: Yes. A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this. Q: Which way was the station wagon facing? A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north. Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated? A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston. (this is a total of 4 men at the Nash Rambler parked by the TSBD) The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from the driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his shoulder as if he was being followed. Q: Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give this information to any law enforcement agencies? A: Yes, I did.”
  11. As we know an Oswald gets picked up on Elm Street. Let's count people. Two men noticed for sure on the 6th floor Sniper's Nest. Add, one black man as a possibility to the list. A black man is not described as a member of the 3 man group. One of the three men walks up Houston towards Main. 2 men get in the station wagon with the Latin. One man is picked up on Elm. Our count should equal 6 men. 2 + 1 + 2 + 1 + a -1. Now if you add the possibility of 1 or two extra men from the TSBD to control lights and elevators and provide watch security for the assassination team you could have as many as 7 or more men involved. The Oswald double is counted at the end as a minus one. My count here doesn't seem right. Let's try again. 1. Two men in the Sniper's Nest seen by many. 2 2. The possibility of a third, a back man. 1 3. 3 men come from behind the TSBD and two of which get into a Nash Rambler with a third man, a Latin. 3 4. 1 man proceeds down Houston toward Main St. That's a total of 7: One of the 3 men one is seen on the 5th floor. And, an Oswald is picked up on Elm Street. These are not counted because they are represented in the earlies count numbers 1-4. If you add 1 or 2 men as helpers from the TSBD for extra duties then the count goes to 8 or 9 men in the assassination team. There are others seen on the 6th floor down by the west end of the building. That would make an even larger team. Or, two teams possibly.
  12. I have been arguing for a larger than 2 man assassination team in the Sniper's Nest by including the possibility that there was black man there according to Amos Euins. I believe the team was larger and that's why it was necessary to use the passenger elevator as an escape route. Richard Carr didn't notice one man leaving the TSBD by the rear of the building as James Worrell did. He noticed 3. Two got into the Nash Rambler and 1 proceeded to walk towards Main Street in a hurry looking backwards. From the Clay Shaw trial in 1969 comes the following: Q: And at the same time you were looking up towards the Texas Book Depository seeing three men come out from behind it. Is that right? A: Do you see these dots on this -- Q: Would you answer my question and then explain, please, sir. I say would you answer the question and then explain. A: Yes, I will answer your question, repeat it, please. THE COURT: Mr. Carr, when a question is put to you, you can answer it yes or no, but you have a right to explain your answer so you cannot be cut off, so if you wish to explain the answer, you are permitted by law to do so. (Whereupon, the question was read back by the Reporter.) A: Yes, that's right. BY MR. DYMOND: Q: And also at the same time you were watching the man whom you say you had seen on the Fifth Floor of the Book Depository walk on Houston Street towards Main. Is that right? *** THE COURT: You may explain. A: The same man that I saw here in this window was with the three men that I told you a minute ago, they came out from behind the School Book Depository, got in the station wagon, one man crossed the street and then came down this side of Houston Street and turned onto Commerce Street. More interesting stuff: Q: You can go on and tell us what you observed, tell us what you observed and what you heard. A: All right. As I stated before, I noticed this fellow in the window, and this gentleman, the pipefitter and myself, he made the statement to -- MR. DYMOND: I object to what the man made a statement concerning. BY MR. GARRISON: Q: You can say what you said. A: I thought he was a Secret Agent man or an FBI man. Q: What did the man in the window look like? A: He had on a hat, a felt hat, a light hat, he had on heavy-rimmed glasses, dark, the glasses were heavy-rimmed, and heavy ear pieces on his glasses. Q: Go ahead. A: He had on a tie, he had on a light shirt, a tan sport coat. ** Q: Now, after the shots, did you notice any movement of any kind -- A: Yes, I did. Q: -- as unusual, that was unusual? A: Yes, I did. Q: Would you tell us what you observed. A: Should I point it out, sir? Q: Yes. A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this. Q: Which way was the station wagon facing? A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north. and, Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated? A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston. The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from the driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his shoulder as if he was being followed. As we know an Oswald gets picked up on Elm Street. Let's count people. Two men noticed for sure on the 6th floor Sniper's Nest. Add, one black man as a possibility to the list. A black man is not described as a member of the 3 man group. One of the three men walks up Houston towards Main. 2 men get in the station wagon with the Latin. One man is picked up on Elm. Our count should equal 6 men. 2 + 1 + 2 + 1 + a -1. Now if you add the possibility of 1 or two extra men from the TSBD to control lights and elevators and provide watch security for the assassination team you could have as many as 7 or more men involved. The Oswald double is counted at the end as a minus one.
  13. Jim, I think that a lot of people think the two are the same. Or, at least that is the impression I get from reading about what people say about witnesses to people on the 6th floor. Under suspicion are Lee Oswald and Malcom Wallace for various reasons. There is a fairly good thread going back to 2005 on witnesses that saw something on the 6th floor: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/3524-witnesses-to-window-shooters/ Witness to Window Shooters and, from that comes a good list of people that saw something: Greg Wagner Advanced Member Members 355 posts Gender:Male Report post Posted April 19, 2018 (edited) I have compiled this list of people who claim to have witnessed activity in upper floor windows of the TSBD near the time of the assassination. Are there any others I may have missed? Thank you! Howard Brennan Richard Carr Malcom Couch James Crawford Tom Dillard Robert Edwards Amos Euins Ronald Fischer Ruby Henderson Robert Jackson John Powell Jeraldean Reid Arnold Rowland Barbara Rowland James Underwood Carolyn Walter James Worrell Edited April 20, 2018 by Greg Wagner Working on another project I have read all of the testimonies of the above but, mostly are now dim recollections. I am going to reread those testimonies. If there is answer to your question it should be found in the testimonies of these witnesses and what people think to form a consensus. I wouldn't worry about letting this thread go. It will come back in some other form or another. People can't seem to let go of what happened 3 minutes after the assassination involving Prayerman, escape from the TSBD, shooters on the 6th floor, what the witnesses said, what the various films show, etc. I have posted the other project I am working on but, failed to include backup evidence for what I was saying about the witnesses. The idea is so strange and foreign to most that the thread didn't go far. I intend to repost that thread and include what the witnesses said and where what they said came from. It is an interesting idea and challenges nearly everything seen and talked about occurring around the Grassy Knoll and the TSBD. It presents a different view or alternate reality for what people saw and heard occurring in front of the TSBD. The list of witnesses is greater than 50 witnesses saying something different occurred than what most people believe.
  14. There is nothing to argue about with what you have said. You have summed up nicely. Realistically, there is no good evidence for any route out of the TSBD. By implication if someone is seen on the street and thought to have been on the 6th floor then they would have had to exit the TSBD somehow. There's only two ways to do that, the first floor exits or the fire escape. The elevators seem to be a focus with people noticing what was going on with both freight and passenger elevators on the first floor. To avoid that one could ride an elevator to the basement and then come up the basement stairs to exit the first floor. It seems to me that if you were a TSBD employee you would not be as noticed or remembered if you came up to the 1st floor from the basement. Maybe. I don't know about a stranger to the building. I think a stranger would be noticed. Would someone like Mac Wallace be considered a stranger? There is an Oswald and a double at the TSBD if you credit Roger Craig's story and other witnesses. He wouldn't be noticed moving around the first floor and could exit out the back or front without any problems. But, "But trying to find the Truth of what is available is worthy of talking about it."
  15. Jim, I'm not wedded to the fire escape notion. There is no supporting evidence of any quality. All it does is account for the only other way to leave the TSBD. The notion would not make a hypothesis simply because there is no way to test it. The Oswald double on the 6th floor, possibly Lee Oswald, had to look enough like Harvey Oswald, the man killed by Jack Ruby, to fool Roger Craig, a keen detective. There may have been more that two people there. Possibly, a black man who Amos Euins covered for saying he was white. He told a reporter, I believe James Underwood, that the man was black. Amos' story shifts about a bald guy or light colored hair. My favorite candidate for this black man in Bonnie Ray Williams who had "white stuff" or "debris" in his hair as described by Jarmin and possibly seen by Euins as baldness. How did he acquire the hair problem? Getting that as dust from the building shaking from shots fired seems like an after the fact justification. Just before the assassination, he leaves the 6th floor by the steps and joins Norman and Jarman to watch the assassination. His role on the 5th floor was as a watchman or spotter. He did not accompany Norman and Jarman to the 5th floor. Norman and Jarman are not clear on how long was it before the assassination that Bonnie Ray joins them. Bonnie Ray's story on where he was at and what he saw changed four times. Can we expect him to be consistent on anything? According to Jarman's testimony he was the one who parked the west elevator on the 5th floor and if he left the gate open no one would be able to use it except someone on the 5th floor. Where is Jack Daugherty during all this? He is not seen or mentioned by any of the three on the 5th floor. Particularly, Bonnie Ray who goes to the 5th floor just moments before the assassination. He may have come down from the 6th floor. There is a possibility for Daugherty to be the clean up man on the 6th floor. Walk to the 5th and take the elevator to the 1st floor before Truly and Baker arrive and then send it back up the 5th floor. I also suspect Eddie Piper. Why else would Piper and Daugherty validate each other's presence of the 1st floor? They can at least be charged with collusion as it is defined modernly. There is all kinds of problems with this on timing. Why didn't Baker and Truly notice or hear the movement of the west elevator as they went up the stairs?
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