Jump to content
The Education Forum

John Butler

  • Content Count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

About John Butler

  • Rank
    Super Member

Profile Information

  • Gender

Recent Profile Visitors

The recent visitors block is disabled and is not being shown to other users.

  1. Harvey had time to take Marina up to his old neighborhood, 77th and 2nd Ave, and show her around the old Hungarian communist neighborhood. Maybe even go over to the old communist club there.
  2. I have to say this fits my biased interpretations of the Dynamic Duo in Russia and elsewhere.
  3. I agree. Suppression could very well be the case. It might be interesting to list these missed witnesses or the ones that have only a March, 1964 FBI report. I have a feeling that something is here, but like so many things in this research one ends up going nowhere.
  4. I don't know or recall this one. I do believe there was someone early on who said shooting in front of the TSBD. The HSCA thought the missed shot, the first one, was at Z 158. I stirred up a pretty good sized argument when I posted about Z 157 being an edited frame and fraudulent. There were a number of things in that argument that carried on to about z 161-ish. This is from an article from Max Holland and Johann Rush: "Any theory involving a first shot even as early as Z 150 faces an insurmountable problem. It directly contradicts the earwitness testimony of dozens of Dealey Plaza observers". That's true. But, there are other witnesses who say differently. At this point in time they are a lesser number and not the majority. IMO, using Holland is risky. I disagree with a number of points he makes in the article that quote comes from. So, I guess the earliest is the HSCA unless someone like Harold Weisman said something.
  5. Where she has the first shot is also wrong with the official story. David Joseph, using Chris Davidson's Swan Song math, puts Z 190 at the corner of the TSBD. Anything prior to that is in front of the TSBD. OBTW, just looking at that thread makes my head hurt. But, still there are 77 witnesses I have found that say something different then the official story. There are 13 very close witnesses to the 6th floor within 40 feet of the Sniper's Nest. They are on the 3rd, 4th and 5th floor. Two of the witnesses maintain what they said concerning shots from directly above on the t6th floor. These were Bonnie Williams and Harold Norman. The other witnesses said something else. Junior Jarman said low and to the left (the Dal-Tex). Elsie Dorman said they came from the Court Records building. The others said the shots came from the west, mainly the Grassy Knoll. I run in to this a lot with many of my "original" thoughts. There is so much out there it is difficult to know and remember.
  6. Mark, These two people would be in the area I call Mannikin Row. That is people between the lamppost just off the R L Thornton sign and the Stemmons sign. This area, Mannikin Row is about 10 feet off the SW corner of the TSBD. There are 19 people there in about a 40 foot space. Most claim that people like Dishong and Burney were in that group. Others name this person or that person as being there. Some witnesses claim to be in that area. Here's what I think. The group is totally fictitous. Here's my reasoning. This crowd cannot be seen in Mary Moorman's Polaroid of Glen McBride. They cannot be seen in the Bronson frame you show. That's the Stemmons sign by the Umbrella Man. It's like Howard Brennan sitting spot. If two or three films ok it then someone might say it could have some truth. The Umbrella Man is seen in several media presentations, so one can tentatively conclude he was there by the Stemmons sign.
  7. Steve, It's my understanding that Oswald wrote that after he left Russia. I don't have a great memory anymore. I might be wrong. I've always seen the Collective as a spy report. Recall that Oswald was the first American that lived in Minsk. American tourists went there from time to time, but their were no permanent residents other than Oswald. I believe that Oswald was a dedicated spy whose task was to also set up pro-American spy networks, if possible. His main mission was to help down the U2. He began prepping for this mission at Atsugi, Japan with his involvement with Russian agents. Lee probably had a greater training in electronic aviation/radar operation then Harvey. Being watched by 30 KGB agents required the other half of the spy team to be there. That's why there is this sense of a dichotomy of Oswalds. There was the Oswald who didn't know Russian and was anti-communist, and Oswald, the Russian expert, who favored communism. I believe Harvey Oswald was what he said he was, a Marxist-Socialist, but not a Troskeyite. On the other hand, he could have pretended to that role. I also believed he was raised by Hungarian communists in New York. I've been toying with the notion that Minsk, with it's large Polish descended population, was the birth place of immigrant Harvey Oswald. It explains his knowledge of Russian and his Polish accent. It also explains his immigrant status and his saying my parents are dead and I do not have a brother or sister. During the rise of communism, Minsk was the center of resistance for White Russians. That's why Harvey, the Marxist-Socialist, was accepted readily by that community in Dallas. He could pretend he was Lee, the anti-communist or he was not a Marxist-Socialist in reality. Here is Harvey the anomalistic, anti-social loner. This loner business was a role that both Harvey and Lee played. Just as an aside they dressed alike. That shirt Harvey is wearing is seen in other photos and perhaps by Lee. Sorry about the quality of this photo. It is a magnified crop. Oswald had more acquaintances and social contacts then most people. Oswald the spy is accentuated by most of these people being in the spy business. This crowd in the first photo is part of the 30 KGB agents monitoring Oswald or are hangers on because he had money and he was an important part of the Minsk factory favored by the authorities. If you look closely at his "buds" they appear to be a non-trustworthy bunch. Also, Oswald was not sent to Minsk as a lowly factory worker. The was sent as a "regulator" of supervisor in the experimental shop. As he was a supervisor his pay indicates what worth and value he had to the Russians in the experimental shop. These people are either monitors or folks hanging around because he had money or was a boss at the factory.
  8. From James Norwood on the Harvey and Lee site: "Shortly after Oswald began work in the Minsk factory, Comrade Libezin, the local Communist Party Secretary, approached a university-educated engineer named Stanislav Shushkevich with the task of tutoring Oswald in Russian, along with an eyewitness named Sasha Rubinchik, so that no single Soviet official would be left alone with Oswald. Shushkevich related to journalist Peter Savodnik that Oswald knew only a “few words, so it was impossible to discuss anything abstract, and he had trouble expressing anything that was not in the present tense.” [26] Mailer, who personally met with Shushkevich, recounts how the tutoring work progressed at a snail’s pace: "Lessons took place in a second-floor room after work....Shushkevich just worked on verbs, and occasionally tried to teach this American colloquial Russian....Their lessons proceeded without great enthusiasm, and Oswald found Russian difficult. He did get to a point where he could achieve understanding if Shushkevich spoke slowly, used gestures, wrote words on pieces of paper, and sometimes brought out a dictionary." [27] While polite and cooperative, Oswald was clearly not responding like a competent foreign language student. In a 2013 interview conducted on Radio Free Europe, Shushkevich vividly recalled one of the tutorials: “[Oswald] seemed to have very strong habits that weren't suitable for studying Russian -- especially with the accents in Russian words. I would teach him to say, ‘Ya DOO-ma-yu’ (‘I think’), but he insisted on saying, ‘Doo-MAH-yu.’ We would be going over the tenses, and he kept saying, ‘Ya Doo-MAH-yu.’ You see, I simply could not get him to say, ‘DOO-ma-yu.’” [28] In the end, Shushkevich was frustrated as an instructor because he could never understand why Oswald had come to the Soviet Union. Shushkevich informed Savodnik that Oswald’s presence in his country “did not make sense. He didn’t appear to know a lot. He didn’t appear to want to know a lot.” [29] But, it makes perfect sense if Oswald had been sent to the Soviet Union as a spy. In preparation for the 2013 interview, the Radio Free Europe reporter Pavel Butorin had studied Oswald’s essay entitled “The Collective” that was prepared in the United States after he returned from the Soviet Union. Butorin recognized that the report was so detailed about Soviet working and living conditions that “it’s as if he had been on a research mission here.” [30] In other words, Oswald was gathering intelligence about his nation’s greatest adversary during the Cold War. Savodnik learned that the KGB’s implicit goal in Shushkevich’s tutorials was “to see how much Russian Oswald really knew.” [31] If that was true, then Oswald was playing his role as a spy to a tee by concealing his skills in the Russian language while observing the landscape and making notes to be used in his future reports." Does this describe Harvey or Lee? Is it the American who couldn't learn Russian or the American who hid his language abilities successfully? Answer this question and I think you will have a greater understanding of the issue.
  9. Mark, I don't think Dishong was overlooked or missed. Everybody at the TSBD was interviewed except Steve Wilson and that was done later. There are a number of TSBD employees who do not have a 11 22-23 63 interview. I am always suspicious when I don't see a DPD, Sheriff's Office, or FBI interview during that time for a witness. Often times all you find is a March, 1964 statement basically saying nothing. In Dishong's case we don't even have that. There were lists of TSBD employees available to the authorities that day.
  10. Mark, It looks like I have to change what I said on June Dishong. Further research indicates I was wrong. She initially says she was 30 feet from the corner. She didn't specify which corner, the SE corner or the SW corner. I thought SE corner. But, on reading further into what she said the clearly was 30 feet past the SW corner which puts her in Mannikin Row. 20 feet from where she was standing puts the p. limo behind the Stemmons sign from Zapruder. This is in accordance with the official story when approximates distance are allowed for. The letter looks aged and the date says 11-22-63. This letter comes to light on CNN on 11 21 2003. It's home is at the 6th floor museum. This is the way one sum's up: Analysis: this letter, which was only discovered after Dishong’s death, sums up what would seem to be the majority view quite nicely: a first shot hit at 190 (when Kennedy stopped waving, and Jackie moved closer to him), followed by the head shot (when people started screaming and dropping to the ground), followed by a third shot. First shot hit 190. Last shot after the head shot. This letter awakens my paranoia. And, truthfully it doesn't take much for that to happen. Is this letter for real or fabricated? It is accord with the official story and not with what other witnesses (77) are saying. The FBI interviewed everyone in the TSBD sometime during the period Nov., 1963 to March, 1964. Where is June Dishong's DPD statement, Sheriff's Office statement, and FBI statement? Where is her Warren Commission testimony? Why since she "sums up what would seem to be the majority view quite nicely" wasn't she interviewed and testimony used? She would be a star witness for the FBI or Warrren Commission. The nonsense she was not recognized or missed by the authorities is just that, nonsense. Something smells here. Based on the provenance and what is being said one is compelled to say this is real evidence. But, due to paranoia and other conflicting evidence I have to reserve major doubts that seriously challenge this letter's authenticity.
  11. Mark, Thanks for notifying me on June Dishong. What she says is a bit different from others about the motorbikes, shots, effects of the shots, sequences, and location from many others. I immediately keyed in on her location and where she said the p. limo was when shots were heard. June makes 78 witnesses saying shooting occurs in front of the TSBD. I am looking at what others say on where she was located. They place her in Mannikin Row near the Stemmons sign. That is not what she said. I was reading fiction the other day and the author made the comment that a backfire sounds like a backfire and not a gunshot. In his opinion gunshots sound like gunshots not firecrackers or backfires. I thought about that and came to the conclusion that maybe he was right. I suspect people who are familiar with gunfire from the military, hunting, or target practicing would recognize gun fire easier then one who has limited experience with gun shots. As I recall Jackie Kennedy's statement, she said the motorbikes were continually backfiring due to the slow pace. So, I suspect this gunfire/backfire/fire cracker confusion may he part of the reason folks are saying different things. Their is also echoes to consider. But, as you say deliberate corruption by the FBI is something one has to consider. In my second run through on your list I am currently in the Cs. I came across Rose Clark. She said she was in Judge King's court room with Lillian Mooneyham and Jeanette Hooker. They heard 3 shots while in that court room. Subsequent testimony by Mooneyham and Hooker begin to change what Clark said. I wrote this little review. I would like to get your opinion on. I think this is a fine example of FBI changing witness statements to meet the official story. What Rose Clark said was definitely not the official story. These 3 witnesses made statements on January 10, 1964. Dallas County Courthouse and Rose Clark, Lillian Mooneyham, and Jeanette E Hooker Rose Clark said she viewed the motorcade from the 2nd floor of the new courthouse on Main and Houston. She said she viewed the motorcade with Lillian Mooneyham and Jeanette E. Hooker. They were in Judge Henry King’s courtroom. She said she saw the motorcade come down Main Street and turn onto Houston. In order to see the motorcade this way these women must have been on the south side of the courthouse. You cannot see Main Street from the west side of the courthouse on Houston Street. And, you can not see Elm Street from the south side of the courthouse on Main Street. This Bond photo shows the above to be correct: If you watched the motorcade come down Main Street from Judge Henry King’s courtroom then you could only see the p. limo until it turned the corner onto Houston Street and not any further on Houston Street. You would not be able to see Elm Street from the south side of the courthouse. You would have to move into a room facing on Houston Street to see Houston and Elm Street. Watching from Judge Henry King’s court room, she said she heard 3 shots. If so, she was an ear witness only otherwise the shooting takes place on Main. The first was louder and the second two were not as loud and were closer together. She noticed after the shots the p. limo came to almost a complete stop. Before this sentence in her statement is prefaced by something not possible, but written in to throw the reader off from what she was saying. This was her impression that the bystanders on Elm Street went toward the Grassy Knoll. This was not possible when she was in Judge King’s courtroom. She could only see this from Judge Meyer’s room at a later time. You cannot see the Grassy Knoll from the south side of the courthouse. Jeanette E. Hooker was with Rose Clark and Lilliam Mooneyham in Judge Henry King’s court room when the motorcade came down Main Street and turned onto Houston Street. Jeanette Hooker tells a different story then Rose Clark. They agree that they were in Judge King’s court room watching the motorcade come down Main Street. But, instead of going to Judge Meyer’s room she said they went to Judge J. Frank Wilson’s court room. From there she said she observed the motorcade turn onto Elm Street from Houston. (It could be that Meyer and Wilson shared a court room) Clark said she heard 3 shots while in Judge King’s room. Jeanette Hooker said she heard 3 shots when the p. limo was close to the R. L. Thornton sign. The word sign is not in the statement, but one can infer she meant near the sign rather than the actual roadway which would put the assassination past the Triple Underpass. So, according to Hooker the p. limo was in front of the TSBD when shots were fired. Lillian Mooneyham tells a different story in which an FBI agent’s confusion may play a part. The agent seems to confuse Kings and Wilsons court rooms by reversing them. And, partially clears up the confusion over Judge Meyer’s room being on the 3rd floor rather than the second. Mooneyham does not say where the p. limo was when she heard shots. She said the sequence was the first shot and then a slight pause and the second two were close together. Hooker and Mooneyham's statements differ enough to through the 3 witnesses' statements into confusion. Is it enough to invalidate what they say?
  12. There were several witnesses that said Oswald had a Polish accent when speaking Russian. This might help with answering the question how did Oswald learn the Russian language? He was born to it. There is an area in eastern Poland and western Russia that has swapped ownership from time to time. This is the area that contains the city of Minsk. From the internet: It was part of a region annexed by the Russian Empire in 1793, as a consequence of the Second Partition of Poland. From 1919 to 1991, after the Russian Revolution, Minsk was the capital of the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic, in the Soviet Union. Now, wouldn't that be something if immigrant Harvey originally came from Minsk and then returned there later on in life. Allen Dulles was in charge of the OSS in Switzerland during the war years 1942-1945. Switzerland was a conduit for Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazis during those years and particularly from Poland. Dulles helped refugees get to France and Spain which were stops on their way to the US. Many of these refugees came from Poland and some from the area of Minsk. Harvey wrote in one of his letters (autobiography) that his mother and father were dead, and he did not have a brother or sister. Was this the truth for immigrant Harvey? Did his family die in Russian occupied Poland due to the Nazis systematic genocide? Harvey has connection to Hungarians according to the Tippit phone call FBI doc. This connection was to the Gardos and Louis Weinstock. The folks were Hungarians and ranking communists in New York in the 1940s. Because of the FBI treatment of these people it is suspected that they may have been informants. Allen Dulles and his henchmen made have been thinking of a way to attack the upcoming and new enemy, the Russians, mid way through the war. Immigrant Harvey may have been placed with them from about 1943 to 1947 when he is turned over to Mysterious Marge. The Oswald Project may have been the brain child of Allen Dulles starting midway through WWII. This Hungarian connection was emphasized by adult Oswald having a 1962 book of Hungarian poetry in the Hungarian language. Immigrant Harvey was probably multi-lingual. If you listen closely to Harvey speak you can hear New York and some foreign-ish language. What you don't hear is a New Orleans accent such as those heard from Louisiana cooks heard on TV. Lee Oswald had this accent but probably lost it to some extent by being in Texas, New York, and the military. None of this is really provable and is just conjecture and speculation. But, there is some slight validity in this.
  13. Mark, This is my second go through of your material. I have not found an error or omission in what you are looking for with the witnesses. I am adding my information to your spreadsheet for my own benefit. I have changed the format somewhat by word wrapping column G. That puts all of that information into a readable space that doesn't run off the screen. Columns A, B, C, D, G, and H are the ones I am most interested in. I think, in part, this is intentional on the behalf of the FBI 302 writers. I have noticed certain patterns with the FBI 302s. 1. There are about 70 employees at the TSBD. All were interviewed on 11 22 63 or 11 23-25 63. There are a few exceptions like Steven Wilson. Some witnesses were interviewed as many as 4 times by the DPD, Sheriff's Office, and the FBI. But, mostly by the FBI. For many witnesses you can not find these initial reports. What you find is the FBI Reports from March, 1964. These are highly sanitized. 2. If a witness didn't report the correct information then they had to make further reports until they got it right. A good example is Bonnie Williams or Howard Brennan. 3. In some reports the information is intentionally confusing or vague to disguise what is being said. These are more than likely rewritten by the FBI to obscure what was said or where the witness was. Many of these witness statements have the same arranged format stating much the same as other witnesses. Locations are changed to protect not the innocent, but the guilty. 4. Location of witnesses change in reports that evolve from Nov., 1963 to March, 1964. 5. Many reports give a location with these two phrases "just after" and "immediately after" passing the TSBD. These 2 words can be easily added as the agent writes the 302 at a later time from his notes. Those two words can change what a witness said about location of the p. limo. 6. I may be goofy on this one. But, you can all most read fear in some witness statements. Particularly, those who make more than one statement. Mary Hollies (who many consider a deceptive person) as an example made statements over time that seemed to show this. 7. The reliability of witnesses are comprised by the FBI in later statements. The either coerce the witnesses to make different statements than prior or rewrite them later. It amounts to the same thing. In this regard I stick to first day statements as much as possible. Witnesses who know they have been comprised usually don't say anything until years later. And, generally when a witness does make a later statement in contradicts what they are reputed to have said earlier. I suppose that was ok with the FBI and others since that further compromises their record. Anyway, I am enjoying your spreadsheet since it is leading me to new information. I am into the C's an have already found 4 new witnesses whose statements contradict the main theories of the assassination as both sides of the assassination say.
  14. John, Something suspicious from the internet on what Marilyn Murret knew and mayhaps connects her to some intelligence function: Nov 1, 1959 Marilyn Dorthea Murret plus MACS 9 (too old to reply) curtjester1 9 years ago Permalink November 1 - Marilyn Dorthea Murret On Sunday, November 1, John Pic's (and LEE Oswald's) cousin, Marilyn Murret visited Pic and his family at Tachikawa Air Base in Japan. Pic told the Warren Commission, "In approximately Oct-Nov, early November, the end of October 1959 (probably October 25) she called me up at the hospital......and I invited her out to the house the next weekend. She visited us on Sunday (Nov. 1), I believe...she talked about the family, and everything....she talked about LEE....she said, 'Do you know that LEE is is in Europe?" Somewhat surprised Pic said, "No, I don't know that." By reconstruction Pic's testimony and noting that Pic contacted the U.S. Embassy in Tokyo on Thursday, November 6, we realize the only Sunday that Marilyn Murret could have visited Pic and his family was on Nov. 1, BEFORE Oswald's "defection" was made public in Japan. Yet Marilyn Murret, the free-lance, globe-trotting school teacher, somehow knew that Oswald had already left for Europe. Pic did not know that LEE was in Europe, and somewhat curious, asked Marilyn about him. Pic told Commission Attorney Jenner, "It was that night, sir, onthe 9 o'clocknews (Sunday evening, Nov 1) that I learned that Lee had defected...on the American Armed Forces Network......the next day it appeared in the paper (Monday Nov. 2)....the Stars and Stripes..." (The only English press in Japan at that time was the Stars and Stripes and the American Armed Forces Network - neither of which had published articles or broadcast news about Oswald's defection by the time Marilyn had visited Pic and his family on November 1). Marilyn Murret had unknown but very good sources of information about Oswald's defection. When asked by Commission Attorney Liebeler, "Did John (Pic) tell you that Lee had gone to Russia?" Marilyn responded, "He didn't tell me, his WIFE told me. So I didn't bring the subject at all with John." Someone is Lying!! - either John Pic or Marily Murret. Which Oswald was it that Marilyn said was in Europe? October, 1959 (mid-October?)- Lee Oswald takes a MATS flight to Germany. This is dicussed in the Steenbarger interview at the HSCA in 1978.
  15. Thanks Mark, I haven't got a clue what I was doing wrong. Did what you suggested first off. I did get something that looked like a spreadsheet, but didn't work properly. I'll try again. Your spreadsheet has been of immense help. By going through your witnesses I have increased mine to 75 witnesses. Being a lazy fellow I wished you had included a reference such as Sheriff's Office, DPD Report, FBI Report, etc. I have found that if people want to challenge your work having the work referenced to the report or document eventually sends those kind of fellows away. They can challenge you, but not the source. Anyway, Great Work and thanks. PS Sorry about the reference to sources note. Your sources are there I just didn't see them until I figured out how to load the spreadsheet correctly. This spreadsheet of your's is really one of the best research studies I have seen on witnesses. You do have info on what I am researching. But, you don't really emphasize the importance of the question where was the president when the witness heard shooting. Stupendous work. Thanks again.
  • Create New...