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John Butler

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  1. If it helps to see what is being talked about. Which reenactment would this be? Can anyone identify exactly what this film is? Or, is this an unknown photographer? (I favor reenactment, but still need to ask) There were many out and about that day. Just survey the existing record of photos and films and you will see many unknowns.
  2. Mark said, “While doing this work, and making all of the required measurements, I didn't detect any glitches or jumps in the car sequences or any other problems that I would expect to see if there had been any evidence destruction. I would suggest that the smoothness of the action in the animation implies that the visual record is complete and has not been tampered with.” And, “Taken at face value Zapruder is confirming that the film is the same as when he saw the original version before he handed it over to Life, but he can't vouch for exact frames. This seems plausible as he was unlikely to have counted the frames on the original or the copies before they were handed over. This account contradicts the claims of those who say the whole film is a concoction, with large chunks removed (e.g. the turning of the corner) or recreated in a film studio. However, it does leave open the possibility that the odd frame here or there may have been suppressed, as David and Chris suggested earlier in this thread. While I'm not in a position to prove or disprove these claims, I feel that the authorities would be taking a huge risk in doing this so I suspect this isn't what happened.” …. I believe Abe Z. said he didn’t turn his cameral off and filmed the entire parade. The Zapruder film is in three parts and the middle part is missing. The first part consists of 132 frames at the beginning of the Zapruder film. The second part is missing. And, the third part begins at Zapruder frame 133 and goes until Z frame 486. When the facts are summarized, it looks like this: 132 frames divided by 18.3 = 7.2 seconds. First Part 415.4 frames divided by 18.3 = 22.7 seconds (22.7 seconds multiplied by 18.3 = 415.4 frames). This is Mark’s measurement which is real close to my guestimate of 22 seconds. Second Part 353 frames (486-133) divided by 18.3 = 19.2 seconds. Third Part This short display of facts says that the longest part of the film is missing. This part is known as the Zapruder Gap. What this would look like visually is this: …. …. “John Connally is convinced that the first shot missed him, and if he is correct then there must have been at least 4 shots in total because there was definitely a shot fired well after the head shot (over a dozen witnesses reported this shot). 2 shots in 2 seconds is proof of multiple gunman because Oswald's gun couldn't be operated that quickly. 4 shots in total is proof of a second gunman as only 3 shots were associated with the TSBD, so the second gunman was located elsewhere.” Mark takes the testimony of a dozen witnesses to say there was a fourth shot. Would he believe this? I have listed on the forum twice a list of over 50 witnesses that said shooting occurred in front of the TSBD. This means that shooting occurred in the Zapruder Gap. How many witnesses do you need in order to believe something? Over 50+ witnesses are not enough when it runs contrary to your beliefs. But, 10 are believable when they concur with what you believe. The Zapruder film is a fraud and that has been proven too many times by many different people. I’m with Jack White on questioning the entire visual record. There are a few things I don’t believe have been tampered with, but they are few and far in between.
  3. Louis Budenz was the editor of the Daily Worker at the time Helen Levi Simon, known as the writer Maxine Levi, was working there. Below is an interesting photo of Louis Budenz. I'm sure any resemblance to Harvey Oswald is coincidental and illusionary. When you compare photos there is hardly any resemblance at all.
  4. Helen Levi Simon Travis Helen Levi. Helen Levi Simon, alias Maxine Levi. Helen Levi Travis. The Tippit Phone Call document identifies the location 77th Street and 2nd Ave. as the location where the father and uncle of Lee Harvey Oswald lived. The document does not identify an address which needs a building number. So, this location covers East 77th Street from 2nd Ave. to 3rd Ave. There is a significant number of people living on the average New York block. There are on the average today: “So how many people are there on a typical block? We couldn't find any hard numbers, but we did find thoughtful estimates. Perhaps 10,000 on a densely populated residential block that has three or more high rise apartment buildings. The same holds for a commercial block, although that shrinks significantly at night. The average would be 1,400 people per block. (based on 4 million people and 2,872 blocks) And if you're not tired of numbers, here's one more...there are 175,000 people per square mile in Manhattan during the day.” Looking at these numbers suggests it will be difficult to find someone living in that area that knew something about Lee Harvey Oswald and his father and Uncle as indicated by the Tippit phone call. The numbers can be narrowed to the 342 members of the Yorkville Club, the organization for communists who lived from 49th Street to 96th Street. There were 342 members of which many lived in the area near 77th Street and 2nd Ave. There are no records for Harvey Oswald prior to the school year 1947-1948. This implies that he had not yet been selected as a double for Lee Harvey Oswald. The provenance of Harvey Oswald is mysterious and the only clue to an origin for Harvey Oswald is the FBI Tippit Phone Call document prior to school records in Texas from 1947-1948. The creditability of the information contained in the document is problematic. Some things may be true and others questionable. So, from the FBI document one should look for Harvey’s father and uncle in the years 1945-1947 in the area of 77th and 2nd Ave in NYC. Information from Harvey’s unknown family and Lee’s family is insufficient to establish any relationships to help identify Harvey Oswald’s orgins. If one takes a literal, unquestioning view of the document then the father and uncle of Harvey Oswald are not Emil Gardos and Fred Blair. However, an alternative view does connect the uncle and father of Harvey Oswald to Emil Gardos, Grace Gardos, and Fred Blair and the location 77th Street and 2nd Ave. Information from a Gardos family member indicates that Emil and Grace Gardos were not the parents of Harvey Oswald. The FBI document says the uncle and father were “Hungarians and Communists”. So, a search for Hungarians and Communists in the location 77th Street and 2nd Ave. in the years prior to 1947-48 is logical. From the book Communist Underground Printing and Illegal Propaganda: Hearings… we can find a number of Hungarian communists in that area and in areas close to 77th Street and 2nd Ave. in the years 1945-1947. The following Hungarian communists were living there during the years 1945-1947: Helen Levi Simon- 350 East 77th Street and 2nd Ave. Lou and Estelle Weber (real name Oringer)- 325 East 77th Street and 2nd Ave. William and Sonia Arnett- 215 East 77th Street and 2nd Ave. There are probably more, but not listed. The dominant communist organization was the Yorkville Club. This covered a district from 49th Street to 96th Street. Its membership was 342 people. I was not able to find any information for William and Sonia Arnett. The parents of Louis Weber were Hungarians. There is no information other then Census data on Louis and Estelle Weber. However, there is information on Helen Levi. Helen’s parents were German. She married Abbott Simon in 1938. Abbott’s parents were from a part of Poland that was a part of Russia. They spoke Polish, Russian, and Yiddish. Simon was involved in the 44 day strike in Flint, Michigan involving General Motors. Helen Levi Simon was a reporter for the Daily Worker during this time period. The Daily Worker at it’s peak had a subscription of 35,000, but on average of about 17000. How many papers were sold on the street is unknown. Whatever, the number of papers sold the Daily Worker was a small paper whose income was probably bolstered by the CPUSA and directly from Russia. Morris Child in his activities as a Soviet agent delivered something like 28 million dollars from Moscow for CPUSA operations. Helen was an active communist agent and probably knew all of the communist activities that went on at 77th Street and 2nd Ave. She was a member of a spy ring that included Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. She was instrumental in delivering money to Mexico to free Frank Jacson, the killer of Leon Trotsky. When questioned about these activities in the late 1930s she answered all questions with the 5th Amendment. Although guilty as charged, it is interesting to note she, as far as I know, was never charged or jailed. I do not think Helen was the mysterious caller or involved in any OSS operations. She was a dedicated communist. But, someone like her is who we are looking at for knowledge of 77th Street in the mid 1940s.
  5. Jim, I'm really sick of reading about communist activities. But, will persevere. We are looking for people who are connected to 77th Street and 2nd Ave. Lautner is certainly one as a top communist in NYC and also an FBI informant. He knew all of the cast of the Tippit Phone Call. Probably was instrumental in the deportation of Emil Gardos and the attempt to deport Louis Weinstock. He did help put Weinstock in jail. This fellow might have been aware of FBI / OSS operations concerning Hungarian Immigrants. His connection to 77th Street and 2nd Ave. is the Yorkville Club and Helen Levi Simon who live at 350 77th Street and 2nd Ave which was fairly close to the Yorkville Club at 350 East 80th Street. Helen was a writer for the Daily Worker and a member of the spy ring that featured Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. She knew Ruby Weil who helped Frank Jacson infiltrate the Trotsky movement. She was instrumental in trying to free Frank Jacson, the killer of Leon Trotsky.
  6. Thanks Bart, I rarely think of Jack Dougherty. In a later statement he said he heard shots coming from above on the 6th floor. Earlier in a statement he said he didn't know where the shots came from. So, even if we go to 11 out of 14 (14 is iffy with Jack's statements) it still doesn't change the idea of reasonable doubt. He was on the 5th floor, but are his statements reliable?
  7. Bart, Can you point me to the article you are talking about. Anything about the 4th floor women is interesting to me.
  8. Bart, There are 13 people on the 4th and 5th floor. 10 women (if you count McCully and Davis) and 3 men on the 5th floor. I think people are missing the point on the location and testimony of these people. Only two people, Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, said they heard shots coming from above them from the 6th floor. Junior Jarman originally said the same thing, but changed his testimony while talking to Gerald Ford to hearing shots from low and to the left. The 10 women indicated they heard shots coming from somewhere else mainly to the west. I think Elsie Dorman said that shots came from the Court Records Building. That makes 11 people out of 13 that did not hear shooting from the 6th floor. These were the people closest to the 6th floor. There were more people on the upper floors if you count the windows that were edited. Mary Hollies and Betty Foster claimed they were on the 5th Floor where they saw I believe Bonnie Ray Williams clomping by. Therefore it can not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that anyone fired a shot from the 6th floor. Add that to the statement by Jesse Curry saying he never could put Oswald on the 6th floor with a rifle in his hand and don't forget the p. parade note. Oswald walks. Therefore he had to die and the quicker the better.
  9. David said, "John - I think what Jim means is that Fred Blair was not the Uncle... he was considered the brother-in-law.. Emil's brother-in-law in this case, which would also make Emil's brother - the uncle, a brother-in-law.... and brother-in-law to Emil's sisters as well." This is just a slight misunderstanding probably due to my lack of clarity. If you take the words "Hungarians and Communists" literally it excludes Fred Blair as the uncle. Fred Blair was not Hungarian. If you apply the words "Hungarian and Communists" to Oswald's father and uncle it excludes Emil Gardos. The exclusion of Gardos is due to there being no known brothers or sisters of Gardos in the records. If taken literally then there is a need to look further for Lee Harvey Oswald's uncle and father. If you make a looser interpretation based on the mysterious caller speaking broadly as just a general reference then Blair and the Gardos can apply as father, uncle, and brother inlaw. David said, "SHE COULD NOT GIVE HER NAME AS SHE WAS AFRAID OF BEING KILLED, THAT SHE WAS FROM NEW YORK AND HAD TO COME "HERE" TO MAKE THE CALL SO THAT SHE COULD NOT BE TRACED Communists do not trace phone calls... the FBI does, the police does, the "government" does." I agree. But, there is the possibility of the FBI, the police, or other government agencies being compromised by communist infiltrators who would pass this information on to higher levels of the CPUSA. SMERSH was still active up to about 1946. It was replaced by other Soviet agencies that carried on the task of investigating and at times eliminating traitors, defectors, and deserters. I would suspect this was still going on by 1963. The mysterious caller probably feared the Soviets, the FBI, the CIA, the New York Police. David said, "OSWALD’S FATHER AND UNCLE HAD LIVED AT SEVENTY SEVENTH AND SECOND (87th?) AVENUE, YORKVILLE, NYC What do we think, if any, is the significance of this address? While it used to be part of YORKVILLE, by the 50's it was no longer and was now part of LENOX HILLS in the Upper East Side.... " 77th Street and 2nd Avenue is a location not an address. That reference covers the whole block from 2nd Ave to 3rd Ave going east. One needs a building number to have an address. Somewhere in this area is the place that the father and uncle of Oswald lived according to the mysterious caller. There are people living there in 1945-1947 that can be related to Emil Gardos, Grace Gardos, Fred Blair, Louis Weinstock, and Louis Budenz. Louis Budenz was the editor of the Daily Worker before he became anti-communist. I will develop this more in a later post by speaking about Helen Levi Simon Travis. David said, "John - you have any info on AMY BLAIR, Grace's sister? It seems to me one would have had to read that Wisconsin paper article to get the names GARDOS and BLAIR associated with "brother-in-law"... yet that article is written in 1949. From the time Georgia Bell says Marge and son leave around Thanksgiving 1947, until the Bronx zoo photo... we have no location for Harvey Oswald... except for in the TARRANT COUNTY school records: Believe it or not, the TARRANT books skip 1946-47. There is nothing for Oswald in the 1944-45 or 45-46 sections... '47-'48 with NANCY LEE OSWALD who has HARVEY's 1948-49 birthday and who first gets crossed out in 48/49 and then TED L OSWALT is listed next (Ted L has been there all along)" There being nothing for Harvey Oswald in the 1944-45 or 45-46 may be a good sign that Harvey Oswald had not yet been selected for doubling with Lee Oswald. I don't have anything on Amy Blair. One could associate Gardos and Fred Blair if one reads what the mysterious caller said in a not so literal manner. The loose interpretation connects Hungarians, communists, uncle, father with the later reference to father and brother in law. Which way is best is still debatable. I lean toward the looser interpretation because it also connects other things such as the location 77th Street and 2nd Ave. David said, "THE WOMAN STATED KARDOS IS HEAD OF THE COMMUNISTS AND THAT THIS GROUP IN NEW YORK NOW HAS CHARTS AND MAPS. GARDOS was NOT the head of the communists in NYC. That article Paul posted was from Wisconsin, not NYC... in NYC Gardos was not all that well known." I agree with Gardos not being the head of the communists in NYC. Fred Blair and Louis Weinstock were Directors in the National Committee of the CPUSA. I also believe that Gardos was also on the National Committee, but can't really say that since I need to find that reference again. Emil Gardos and J. Peters (Sandor Goldberg) were alleged to be Russian agents with the NKVD when they left Hungary directly after the failed communist revolution in 1919. Supposedly Gardos and J. Peters came to the US at the same time. Another reference has J. Peters coming in 1924. As far as Gardos being head of the CPUSA you would have to consider his status as a NKVD agent reporting directly to Moscow. His connection to Fred puts him in the upper hierarchy of the CPUSA in New York. Again, if you take a loose interpretation Emil Gardos could be considered "head of the communists" in Yorkville. This is where he and Grace lived for many years. The Yorkville Club was the main organization for communists in Yorkville. It was conveniently located near 77th Street and 2nd Ave at 350 East 80th Street. This was just across the block from Helen Levi Simon. She connects to a lot of people, particularly big time spies such as Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, Whittaker Chambers, and was looked into as being connected to the assassination of Leon Trotsky in Mexico in 1940. Because you can look at what was said in the Tippit Call doc in different ways it might suggest that the mysterious caller did not know everything or had forgotten relevant things and was speaking generally based on her memory of events that could stretch back to 1945-1947. This notion might suggest that the mysterious caller had a momentary memory lapse, perhaps from stress, and forgotten the uncle's name (Fred Blair). And, she tried to convey who that was by saying and repeating the words brother in law. Good catch on the Oct. 19, 1939 birth date. It implies the short Marguerite as filling in that data. She often made mistakes with historical information. This is not really a counter to some of your statements. They stand as sound reasoning. I'm just trying to fill in data around your statements for clarity purposes and offering a different interpretation for some things.
  10. He needs to look into letters between Fred and Grace for the period 1950 to 1966. Particularly if Grace had more than one child. The average family size from 1930 to 1960 was 3 or 4 kids per family. Single child families were rare in the days before birth control. If he is looking for things Hungarian then the period of 1942 to 1947-1950 would a good place to search for Hungarian children or some indication the Gardos were concerned with Hungarian immigrants or belonged to immigrant organizations? Where was Fred Blair from 1946 to 1950? Supposedly, he was hiding out or went underground during the years of the Red Scare. There is some connection between Grace Gardos and the FBI that kept her from returning to the US in 1966. Russ Geck said she didn't have the money. That's not true. Morris Child, CG 5824-S*, had arranged financing for Grace through Hungarian communist organizations. Russ Geck may not have known this. Another question is why did Grace Gardos lost connections to her family after 1966? Sara Mares indicates this in I believe 2012 or about then. Another good question is exactly what year did Grace and Emil leave for Hungary. And, is there any information on how they went, ship or plane?
  11. You are right Jim. But, it doesn't fit Fred Blair. A quote from David's comments: "THE WOMAN SAID SHE KNEW OSWALD’S FATHER AND UNCLE WHO WERE HUNGARIANS AND COMMUNISTS." That was the point. It goes along with David Josephs notion we might be making unwarranted assumptions. I don't necessarily agree with David. But, he has a good point that needs to be considered. That is why I stressed Hungarians and communists. This doesn't fit Fred Blair suggesting there may be two groups of two men. It is an idea worth checking out.
  12. Paul, Send me an email and I will give you email addresses for Russ and Andi Geck. I'm thinking you can probably get more out of them than I did.
  13. David Josephs said, “Where in this report do you see that EMILE KARDOS = OSWALD'S FATHER? or UNCLE? ... or that "FATHER" and "UNCLE" are related (many ways to have a father and uncle from different families) ... or that "UNCLE" is connected to "brother-in-law"... WE are making these connections, not the report." I said, “The part about Hungarians and Communists does not fit Emil Gardos and Fred Blair. So, there might be another pairing for father and uncle. But, who?” If David Josephs is correct, we need to look for another pair of brothers who can be a father and an uncle. Ones that are actual brothers, not a father and uncle who is also the brother in law. In this I don’t know how to account for the brother in law. The father and uncle of Lee Harvey Oswald allegedly lived at 77th and 2nd Ave. Without a building number that is a big place with a lot of buildings. I could not find any connection to this location for anyone connected to the FBI Tippit Phone Call. Emil Gardos, Grace Gardos, Fred Blair, and Louis Weinstock all were close to this area in Yorkville, NYC. Yorkville is often called Little Hungary and is generally reckoned to be from 79th Street to 92nd Street. Others suggest that Yorkville could stretch further south and north. The Yorkville Communists might be a good place to look for brothers. The Yorkville Club was a communist organization at 350 East 80th Street, NYC. There membership was 342 members. The Yorkville Club district for members had Yorkville stretching from 42nd Street to 96th Street, NYC. The main copying machine for printing and copying communist material was located there. This organization may have dealt with Hungrarian immigration after WWII. This comes from the book Communist Underground printing and Illegal Propaganda- Congressional Hearings… This information about the Yorkville Club comes from the period 1945-1947. It lists several of its members. I have chosen the ones that have an address on 77th Street. First off there is a mention of J. Peters in this record. Sandor Goldberger alias Alexander Stevens alias Joseph Peter was an alleged agent of the NKVD along with Emil Gardos. Helen Simmons is an interesting person living at 350 East 77th Street, NYC was a writer for the Daily Worker. She would have known all of the cast of the FBI Tippit Call. Lou and Estelle Weber’s (real names Oringer) address was at 325 East 77th Street. William and Sonia Arnett lived at 215 East 77th Street, NYC. There were many others listed within just a few streets of 77th Street and 2nd Ave. The Jefferson School of Social Science was a communist organized and dominated school in the area. There are two brothers associated with the FBI / Grace Gardos. They are the two Childs brothers, Morris and Jack, the Solo spies. But, they are Russian rather than Hungarian. The 77th Street and 2nd Ave. area appears to have been remodeled and would have little to do with the appearance of the area and the people of that time. This was all I could find on communists on 77th and 2nd, and the general Yorkville area.
  14. Jim, David Josephs has made a brilliant re-analysis of the Tippit call. At first I wasn't sure I could agree, but believed it was certainly something that needed to be thought about. On the second reading it made more sense. What if we have interpreted the call doc wrongly and there are two sets of characters rather than one. David said: "Paul... Take a moment and reread the FBI report... there are 2 distinct parts being referenced here... 1. The man Ruby killed had a father and an uncle who were Hungarian Communists & THESE MEN lived at 77th and 2nd (I think the FBI changed this too... Yorkville is much more a real community at 87th and 2nd rather than 77th.. 2. The call BEGINS TO SPEAK DIFFERENTLY... and mentions Emil, something about a brother-in-law, and WEINSTOCK. THE WOMAN SAID SHE KNEW OSWALD’S FATHER AND UNCLE WHO WERE HUNGARIANS AND COMMUNISTS. THE WOMAN CONTINUED THAT OSWALD’S FATHER AND UNCLE HAD LIVED AT SEVENTY SEVENTH AND SECOND (87th?) AVENUE, YORKVILLE, NYC, THAT WHILE LIVING THERE BOTH WERE UNEMPLOYED, GOT THEIR MONEY FROM COMMUNISTS AND SPENT ALL THERE TIME IN COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES. THE WOMAN THEN BEGAN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY, DISJOINTEDLY, AND NERVOUSLY. SHE STATED SHE HAD TWO NAMES TO GIVE AND MENTIONED THE NAME EMILE KARDOS (GARDOS) AND SAID SOMETHING ABOUT A BROTHER IN LAW. THE WOMAN KEPT REPEATING THE WORD BROTHER IN LAW Where in this report do you see that EMILE KARDOS = OSWALD'S FATHER? or UNCLE? ... or that "FATHER" and "UNCLE" are related (many ways to have a father and uncle from different families) ... or that "UNCLE" is connected to "brother-in-law"... WE are making these connections, not the report." …. The part about Hungarians and Communists does not fit Emil Gardos and Fred Blair. So, there might be another pairing for father and uncle. But, who? 77th and Second Ave. is just outside of what is considered Yorkville. I have never been able to tie anything to that address. It might be phony throw off. Emil Gardos and Louis Weinstock were directors on the National Committee of the CPUSA. They were also editors or reporters for the Daily Worker. Grace Gardos was also. Where the possible confusion comes in is when Emil Gardos and the brother in law are mentioned. This can only be Emil and Fred. You can make an argument to either separate these pairs and also combine them. We have looked at the event by combining Emil, Fred, and Grace. This has led to John Gardos. And, we now have evidence that backs up the 1966 FBI document (Solo spies) that says Grace wanted to bring her son back to the US. This is the Russ Geck info. The 1950 info on Emil Gardos, Amalia (Grace) Gardos, and Louis Weinstock all applying for visas to Hungary in the period 1949-1950 needs to be thought about. Another communist, Israel Amter, is charged with the same charges as Louis Weinstock. He is released from trial for health reasons. Suspicious. Both were charged with trying to overthrow the government of the US. The Solos spies, the Childs, become FBI informants in 1952 or there abouts. Speaking of 1952 Harvey would be 13 years old. Isn't there somewhere in Armstrong's Harvey and Lee that the refugee children could not be used until they were 13 years old. This was some kind of government requirement. 13 years old in 1952 and a trip to New York might connect. The Grace Gardos situation in 1966 is still something of a mystery. Why did the FBI consider her suitable for a counter intelligence operation if she returned to the US with her son? And, why did Grace Gardos quit communicating with her family and begin a near 50 year period where communications were lost. This is according toe Sara Mares. Despite what might be false information in the Tippit Call document there is still much that has been verified. And, there is the FBI treatment to the doc to consider. There are still unanswered questions that probably need further research. Sara Mares is the niece of Grace Gardos. There was a reference to Fred Blair and Naomi Blair. Possibly the daughter of Naomi Blair.
  15. I guess what I am trying to say is should we consider the Mrs. Jack Tippit phone call issue dead or keep looking around for an alterative answer?
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