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Greg Burnham posted a topic in JFK Assassination DebateThe following audio recording of a telephonic conversation between me and Gerry Patrick Hemming is nearly 25 minutes in length. Gerry and I touch on various topics and characters of interest. Gerry Patrick Hemming: "We’d have been left dead and bleeding on the tarmac right at the foot of the stairs to Air Force One”.
.... N E W .... GORDON ARNOLD - Additional Claims about the Knoll-Wall Good Day.... The following are just a portion of the 16-page transcript quotes of a forty-five minute interview of self-claimed Dealey Plaza witness, Gordon Leslie Arnold, that was administered June 6, 1989 by interviewer Conover Hunt for the "Oral History Collection" done at "The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza." Isn't it amazing how, no matter which side of the "picket fence" you are on with respect to what you think about Arnold's claims, that the mere mention of his name sometimes --much more often with a few persons, than others-- can be enough to get one's self feeling (hopefully temporarily) just -- a --- bit ---- anxious. The transcript is annotated that it was originally transcribed by Stephen Fagin, November 2003, then, the transcript was revised by Stephen Fagin and Gary Mack in "January/February 2004". What follows are just some of the 6-6-89 additional claims and/or additional details that Arnold made to Hunt in 1989 (after Arnold's "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" 1988 shown interview had already been filmed and aired) that have not been previously publicized in any other newspaper article, documentary, or book. (in transcript-quoted, transcript-chronological order) Arnold claims, "And on that particular morning, I was going to be going to Fort Wainwright, Alaska, the following week, and my parents had bought me a brand new, modern camera to make movies with" Please recall that in "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" documentary that Arnold stated, matter-of-factly (a couple times), that the movie camera belonged to his Mother, and, he claimed, because it was sentimentally his Mother's that was the reason he initially did not want to give up the entire camera to the, supposed, "badgeman" that he claimed kicked him a couple times. In this 1989 "SFM" interview Arnold claims he parked, "on the other side of the tower," "before noon time." Arnold claims he went to Dealey Plaza because while driving he noticed the people lined-up and he wanted to test the new movie camera. He claims he did not know anything about the presidential motorcade, "because in the military training that we had, we weren't allowed to read newspapers, listen to radios, nothing like that." (which, in my military experience, was true only for recruit training "boot camp," but was not true for any advanced special training after boot camp) Arnold claimed on 11-22-63 he had been in the United States Army, "approximately nine months," and that during his three years of service he, "was in a special unit." (but he never details which "special unit") Arnold claimed the first encounter with the, supposed, "agent" occurred "down to the very corner where there's a… a drainage ditch" ....probably meaning the vertical sewer at the junction point where the west end of the north stockade picket fence adjoins the north end of the triple overpass bridge. Please recall how in 1988's "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" where he was first filmed stradling, was filmed noticeably far away from the picket fence, and, the vertical sewer does not even appear in the background. (in "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" he does mention that the agent first approached him from around up off the north side of the triple overpass bridge) Arnold claimed he, "weighed 175 pounds," and, "I was nothing but muscle." Does the, supposed, "Arnold" image "seen" in MOORMAN #5 polaroid photo enhancements appear to to you to be "nothing but muscle", or, does the, supposed, 5.8' tall "Arnold" image appear to you to have a somewhat noticeable "gutt"?; a gutt "seen" from a lower MOORMAN position, rising above above a 3.3' tall wall. Arnold claimed the, "agent" told Arnold that the agent, "was with either the CIA or Secret Service." When the "agent," supposedly, encountered Arnold again and told Arnold, again, to leave the area, Arnold claimed he thought or said aloud, "Well, horse rots" and then (probably thought to himself) "I'll just go around it and get on the other side of the fence. You know, I'm away from his territory. I'm in mine now. I get on the other side, and man, everybody's in good positions to take pictures but ole' Gordon here, so… (chuckling) So, the big problem was… is that there use to be a directional identification billboard out here. And it was just past the lampost." Arnold claimed, "at that point in time they were putting dirt on the knoll. There was a mound of dirt. And I said, 'Well, I'll stand on the mound of dirt.' And I was doing some practice pan shots" The ground between the retaining wall and the picket fence line may, or may not, have then had a thinnish layer of dirt on its top in that area, possibly even a grass-people-traffic-worn-showing dirt top, but, there are no photos, no film evidence, nor a single witness(es) statement(s) that there was ever an obvious, distinct, raised, rounded, "mound of dirt" --anywhere-- in that knoll/wall area. Professional surveys from the trapezoid points between the "badgeman" tree, picket fence corner, retaining wall southeast inside corner, and the northernmost wall corner (along with my several personal extended trip/vacations I have made to the plaza in the 80's and 90's) all reveal that trapezoid that ARNOLD claimed he was within to be relatively level. Conover then asks Arnold where he was standing in relation to the north pergola steps, to which Arnold claims, "OK. OK. The steps would be almost----I would say in front of me, but it's not in front of me because I'm standing askew to the steps----more towards the street than I am the steps." "And I'm up as… I'm about three feet from the fence." Please recall that the 1978 "Dallas Morning News" photo that shows Arnold standing noticeably much closer to the picket fence than the retaining wall that he stood closer to by 1988's "The Men Who Killed Kennedy." Conover then asks, "Between the steps and the fence?," to which Arnold replies, "Yes." *NOTE* that Arnold claims he was BETWEEN the steps and fence --in other words, he is specifically claiming he was specifically in the grass between the fence and the steps-- but he was not on the grass between the east edge of the sidewalk and the west edge of the retaining wall, he was not on the sitting bench, he was not on the west edge of the steps, he was not on the east edge of the steps, he was not on the steps or the top step, he was not on the pergola sidewalk, he was not on the west edge of the sidewalk, and, he was not on the east edge of the sidewalk. Based on the physical layout of the steps/retaining wall/picket fence corner I cannot visualize his above strange, imho, concurrent added claim that he was also "more towards the street than I am the steps." (perhaps he was trying to vocalize that his claim was that his facing direction --not his standing location-- was facing turned "more towards the street"?) Conover then asks, "So, the steps were east of you?" to which Arnold replies, "Right." (So, he has already said he was 3' from the picket fence, and the pergola steps, not the pergola sidewalk, are east of his standing location point) Arnold then claims he, "still didn't know what was happening until, well, the motorcade came around the corner…" (yet, he also claimed he had been there since just before noon. He claims he has been there 30+ minutes before the attack, so, is it logical to you that in that 30+ minutes before the attack that he, never once, reasoned just why so many people were pouring out of the buildings and gathering together, and/or, he never once even took just a few short seconds to casually ask someone --anyone-- just what was going on? Exactly WHAT did Arnold imagine/think the C.I.A. "agent" --or was it a secret service "agent"-- was doing there, anyway?) Arnold goes on, "And I said, 'Well, that looks like the presidential flag.' And I still really wasn't convinced, but I put the camera up, had it all wound up, and just as the nose of the car started to come into the… into my viewfinder, I pulled the little switch on it. And just as I started to pan and I was almost parallel to the street is when the… I want to say noise. It's not a noise. You feel something go past you, and then you… it's almost instantaneous. You'll hear a noise following behind it, and to me, I knew I was dead because that was a bullet that just went over me. And it's not a span of time that this occurred in. This happened, what I'm telling you, is all in one sequence because when the shot went past my ear, I was automatically falling. And when I was falling, I was still taking... The camera was still rolling. And I could see the president's head go back. Now that's the last that I remember being on the camera, but when I went down, I literally went down and when you're… you're taught to roll…" "…to get down as deep as you can and away from the line of fire. And I would say that another shot went over my… the position that I was in, but the… when that occurred, I was down. I had my face… I had rolled over once, and my face was now down. By now, the camera had quit running by this point in time. OK. At that… it seemed like eons, but it's not. A short period of time after that, somebody kicked me in the derrier, and now, I'm not in the mood to be kicked to begin with. And I was upset because I knew the president had been killed, and I turned over and I was ready to hit somebody. And I was facing a large bore weapon, and the man was crying." Conover asks, "What do you mean by a large bore weapon?" to which Arnold claims, "Like a shotgun…" "… but it looked… it was big enough for a truck to drive through." So, Arnold is claiming one shot was fired while Arnold was standing only 3' from the picket fence with the pergola steps in front of him, and Arnold first instinctively reacted to a bullet going over him. He implies that he rolled over one complete revolution, and since we know that no one is seen in photo nor films just west of the retaining wall --near that 3' from the picket fence Arnold claims-- he is clearly implying that he had to have rolled somewhere east or northeastward out of sight of all cameras --and towards the eardrum busting, very close bullet that he claimed in 1978 and 1988 passed very close to his left ear. *NOTE* that here Arnold said a bullet went over him but does not say --as he did in 1978 and 1988-- that a bullet went past his left ear. Also note that in 1978 Arnold claimed he was kicked not by the "badgeman," but rather by a "badgeman accomplice" also dressed in a D.P.D. uniform (in 1978 the *first* D.P.D. uniformed "badgeman accomplice" had the additional Arnold claim that "badgeman accomplice" was also wielding a visible, drawn, held revolver), but by 1989, Arnold has now mutated his claim to the "badgeman" himself was now the only kicker ---while he is holding that waving, large bore, shotgun-like weapon. When asked how far away from him the "badgeman" was, Arnold claims, "He was just out of arm reach, down to the barrel" and, "He was between me and the fence." After Conover asks if Arnold saw from where the "badgeman" came from, Arnold claims, "No, not where he came from, but now, people were moving at that point in time. Some were running away from where I was at. Some were running up the hill. What I couldn't understand is, he took the film out of the camera, pitched the camera back to me, and then he came back towards the… along the fence line towards the parking area," and yet, not one single witness, nor one single photo/film confirms an armed, crying D.P.D.-uniformed assassin kicking anyone and waving a large weapon around for all these persons that Arnold, by his own 1989 claims, said were now "running up the hill" past the, supposed encounter only a few yards away. *NOTE* that Arnold never once mentions a second D.P.D.-uniformed "badgeman accomplice" in his 1989 claims, even though he detailed a second D.P.D.-uniformed "badgeman accomplice" carrying a revolver --and who did the kicking-- in his 1978 claims. And here's one of the 1989 Arnold claims that REALLY caught my attention. A claim that I have never in 29+ years ever heard a single researcher ----including the "badgeman" founders---- ever mention, much less, provide the details of for us, nor has it ever appeared in ANY photo enhancement: "He had a… it looked like a Dallas Police officer's uniform, and he was a white male. He had… oh, back in those days, it's what they use to call shooter's glasses. Oh remember the… it was like a yellow tint to the glasses. It kept the glare off your eyes." I can just visualize the MOORMAN photo enhancer-artists that also think that "Arnold" is "seen" in MOORMAN now scrambling and having to alter their black and white and water-colorized enhancements to match this additional, "important" claim by Arnold to now "show" the, supposed, "badgeman" glasses with yellow-tinted lenses, and don't forget to add-in the glasses frame of these, "shooters glasses," and remember to trim "Arnold's" gutt to appear as, "nothing but muscle." During the experiences of war, in hunting, for target-practice, and when trap and skeet shooting, most persons still do call them "shooter's glasses," Gord-ee-oh. Arnold claims the "badgeman" was in his, "late-twenties, early thirties," had dark hair, "was not fat," "was stocky," "had a ruddy complexion," and was, "a little bit taller than I was" (Arnold states he was 5' 10.5" tall, = 5.87') The, supposed, badgeman, Arnold goes on to claim, "had dirty fingernails" that Arnold claimed he noticed while he was watching the "badgeman" trigger finger during the, supposed, encounter. Of the encounter, and "badgeman" during the encounter, Arnold claimed, "And with him shaking like that, it was going back and forth, and it just shook me up." "He had tears coming down his eyes, but he… when I left here, I got to my car as fast as I could." Arnold goes on to claim that he told his girlfriend-later-his-wife, "Now, I explained to her what had occurred, and I had explained to my parents what had occurred" and after he left Dallas to travel to Alaska, he stopped-over in Seattle and "explained to the officer-of-the-day where we were being billeted what I had seen." Arnold further claims, "The… my son and daughter now know about it." Then this strange exchange: Arnold: Well, I went into the service… Conover: What year? Arnold: …in '66. I say "strange" because earlier in his claims in this same 1989 interview Arnold stated that he started serving in the U.S. Army in 1963 (possibly, that is a transcription error?) Arnold then claims that while serving on a court trial jury he told a fellow University of Texas at Arlington student who was researching the assassination the "true" story of what happened --according to Arnold. Arnold claims he took this UTA student to the "grassy knoll" and that the student took a photo of Arnold standing on the "grassy knoll" Arnold goes on to describe how Nigel Turner found Arnold, "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" filming, etc. Of the "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" segment where Arnold, supposedly for the first time, views the enhanced "badgeman" image after flipping up the piece of cardboard, Arnold claims that "badgeman" was Lucien Sarti when Arnold elaborates to Conover after Conover asked what the assassin looked like, "And… well, if you have the tape, he's in the tape." (unless Arnold is saying the assassin was someone else who appeared in "The Men Who Killed Kennedy") I guess the Frenchman, Sarti, did not speak with a, noticeably, French accent when he spoke to Arnold, aye? If I recall correctly, Gary Mack once emailed me and said that "The Men Who Killed Kennedy"/Steve Revile French-Corsican-mafia-were-the-assassins-theory was "nonsense." Arnold further describes how he was shown several mugshot-type photos by Turner or a Turner assistant, and after about 30 seconds he was "semi-sure" he identified one of them as being the third assassin team member (or second assassin team member, depending on which year version of Arnold's claims he was claiming to Turner) -- the "hard-hat badgeman accomplice" that is, supposedly, "seen" in the MOORMAN polaroid enhancements. (I wonder why this important identification of the "hard-hat badgeman accomplice" was not filmed, or, if filmed, why it was also not shown in "The Men Who Killed Kennedy"?) About how long the encounter with the, supposed, "badgeman" lasted, Arnold further claims, "That lapse of time that you're talking about, and I… I… It would be no more than thirty seconds because, in all honesty at that point in time, there was a lot of police officers up or coming up the hill or were on the knoll." Please read my study, "The WILMA BOND Photos Do Not Timestamp ARNOLD's Presence Anywhere on the Grassy Knoll" linked to below. Incredibly, Arnold goes on to mutate his story, temporarily, within this very same 1989 interview when he goes on to claim to Conover Hunt, "And believe it or not, I say there was four or five shots fired. I know there was two fired over me, but now the… the problem with this particular area is that you've got reports going off between buildings." Conover asks, "So, you were aware of shots being fired before the ones came over your head?" to which Arnold claims, "To be honest with you, no." Arnold claims he never heard anyone talking from behind his, supposed, filming/standing location. Arnold again claims how the highway sign blocked his camera filming view just before the attack started, and how Arnold had his body parallel to the street direction when "his" first shot went over him (or, was it to the left of him?). But, in utilizing and calculating on a professional surveyed map from the area where "Arnold", supposedly, stood during the attack --from the intersection point of the Z-202 "black dog man" mandatory line-of-sight with the Z-315.6 MOORMAN mandatory line-of-sight for the "Arnold" image, or, from that BDM Z-202 line-of-sight 3' from the picket fence, or, from the Z-315.6 MOORMAN mandatory line-of-sight for the "Arnold" image at 3' from the picket fence-- the highway sign (presumably, the "Stemmons" sign) would horizontally block President Kennedy from Arnold's view from before Z-133 (on the left north edge of the sign), through only about Z-160 to 175 (when the president would have emerged from the right south edge of the sign) Also, please recall that Gary Mack has stated that Arnold claimed to Gary in 1982 that Arnold starting walking forward towards the retaining wall (southeastward), from a grass point nearer to the "badgeman" tree, just as the limousine entered Elm Street, and while Arnold --as Arnold claims-- was panning his camera around in practice. Arnold claimed he was walking southeastward, with his (or did it belong to his Mother?) new-to-the-touch/unfamiliar-with-all-mechanisms-feeling movie camera, raised up to his eye, panning the camera around in arcs, walking towards an imminent crest/drop-off of a "grassy knoll" hill that surrounds the steps top, and/or, bumping into the retaining wall, and/or, tripping on the straight-edge of the pergola sidewalk, and/or, and/or bumping into whomever spilled the red drink onto the east sidewalk edge, and/or tripping-down-into-MOORMAN's-view because he did not see the top pergola step, and/or, all the while, walking up onto then standing upon a raised mound of dirt that no other witness that went up there has ever spoken of, that no one captured in any photos/films, nor is documented by a single professional surveyor on any of the professional land survey maps and professional plats performed in 1963/1964. Arnold further claims the movie camera film was color, 8mm, brand "Kodak" (but he gives no "Kodak" specific film type), and admits he, "was concentrating more on the… on the camera and the---what I keep saying---stupid people in front of me because I couldn't get up to where I could see what was going on." "And I rolled, and when I rolled, the camera was still running. So, it would have taken a picture of the fence…" "…and anything behind it." Ahhhh-hah !!.... Now we know why the, supposed, "badgeman" wanted to get "Arnold's" film.... .... "badgeman" saw the camera, and/or saw the camera laying on the ground facing him and the "badgeman" thought he may have been exposed on film.... .... But wait.... .... Why did the "badgeman," completely illogically, give the movie camera BACK to Arnold?!!? ----you know, so Arnold could keep safe the same movie camera that, most likely, now also had "badgeman's" fresh fingerprints well preserved for the authorities to find on the movie camera's outside AND on the inside the movie camera???? Maybe it was just that the "badgeman" already knew beforehand that he, or any of the other conspirators, did not need to ever worry about any serious investigation by the "authorities." With some of these additional claims that Arnold "illuminated" and ruminated about during his 1989 "SFM" interview, you can count on that I will be updating my research study, "The WILMA BOND Photos Do Not Timestamp ARNOLD's Presence Anywhere on the Grassy Knoll," currently available for all, here .... http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=14115&st=0#entry163847 Best Regards in Research, Don Donald Roberdeau U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, plank walker Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges clearly T ogether E veryone A chieves M ore National Terror Alert for the United States: