Who Killed JFK?: Poll and Discussion?

[Caroline Hall]

I find this very interesting. I have never heard of the'Military Industrial Complex' - could you tell a bit about it?

Also if this theory is true, which it could be, how was Lee harvey Oswald picked to be the 'patsy'?

I have been pondering for so many years on this subject and I do believe deep down that Oswald did not shoot Kennedy. He may have been involved somewhow but i think the guardness of the US government speaks volumes.

I have been studying politics and looking at the history of the US governemnet including its statements about Iraq etc., I beleive a cover-up is highly possible.

I have spoken to Anthony Summers, author of 'Conspiracy' and he stands by a cuban involvment in the killing of JFK.

Caroline Hall

[John Simkin]

I find this very interesting. I have never heard of the'Military Industrial Complex' - could you tell a bit about it?

Welcome to the Forum. It is always good to have young students join the research community. It is likely to be a long stuggle to get to the truth and therefore we constantly need to recruit young people to the cause.

I am one of those who believe that the Military Industrial Complex was behind the assassination of JFK. Dwight Eisenhower devoted his last speech as president to this subject. (1)

Three days from now, after half a century in the service of our country, I shall lay down the responsibilities of office as, in traditional and solemn ceremony, the authority of the Presidency is vested in my successor.

This evening I come to you with a message of leave-taking and farewell, and to share a few final thoughts with you, my countrymen...

Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence - economic, political, even spiritual - is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

As Robert Higgs has pointed out, the Military Industrial Complex began during the Second World War (2):

The government itself became the dominant investor, providing more than $17 billion, or two-thirds of all investment, during the war. Besides bankrolling ammunition plants, the government built shipyards, steel and aluminum mills, chemical plants, and many other industrial facilities. Thanks to government investment and purchases, the infant aircraft industry soared to become the nation's largest, building 297,000 aircraft by the war's end. One might justifiably call this government investment "war socialism."

But it had a peculiarly American twist that makes "war fascism" a more accurate description. Most of the government-financed plants were operated not directly by the government but by a relatively small group of contractors. Just twenty-six firms enjoyed the use of half the value of all governmentally financed industrial facilities leased to private contractors as of June 30, 1944. The top 168 contractors using such plants enjoyed the use of more than eighty-three percent of all such facilities by value. This concentration had important implications for the character of the postwar industrial structure because the operator of a government-owned, contractor-operated facility usually held an option to buy it after the war, and many contractors did exercise their options.

The arrangements created in 1940 and refined during the next five years completely transformed the relations between the government and its military contractors. In the words of Elberton Smith, the official army historian of the mobilization, the relationship "was gradually transformed from an 'arms length' relationship between two more or less equal parties in a business transaction into an undefined but intimate relationship." The hostility that businessmen had felt toward the government in 1940 evolved into a keen appreciation of how much a company could gain by working hand-in-glove with the military.

This speech was written by Malcolm Moos. He later pointed out that the text of the speech was altered at the last moment. The group that Eisenhower was warning about was originally described as the “Military Industrial Congressional Complex”. Objections were raised and Eisenhower agreed to remove the word Congressional.

This fact provides new meaning to this speech. Eisenhower was actually referring to the group in Congress run by Lyndon Johnson and Richard Russell. Eisenhower was also aware that these politicians were being funded by people like Sid Richardson, Clint Murchison, H. L. Hunt and George Brown. In 1952 Eisenhower had agreed for their man, Robert Anderson, to enter his cabinet. Later he was to hold the important post as Secretary of the Treasury. In this post he introduced legislation beneficial to the oil industry. (3)

Eisenhower had been fully comprised during his own presidency. He had been unable to act after he had taken the money in order to allow Robert Anderson into his government. All Eisenhower could do was warn Kennedy of the problems that he faced. Did Kennedy try to do something about the MICC? Yes. After the Cuban Missile Crisis he began to take several measures in order to destroy the MICC. In doing so, he signed his own death warrant.

I have tried to explain this here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2310

Notes

(1) Dwight Eisenhower, television speech (17th January, 1961)

(2) Robert Higgs, World War II and the Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex, Freedom Daily Magazine (May, 1995)

(3) Robert Sherrill, The Accidental President (1967) page 145

[Paul Troglia]

I am amazed that so many people, especially those from academia, still believe there is more to the John Kennedy assassination than Lee Harvey Oswald acting alone. In the 40 years since, there has not been a shred of evidence to support other conclusions. All the ballistic, eyewitness, motivational and biographical evidence points to nothing but that demented loser getting to the 6th floor--the highest station he reached in life--and killing the President.

I think educators should be dedicated to passing on truth, and leave conjecture to something unexplainable--like how the Pyramids were built. You'll be doing history a favor.

[Shanet Clark]

The discussions of my youth which I participated in, by observing---they just now make sense.

In best FBI memo fashion, I'll give you what stands out in my mind, circa 1973.

LYNDON JOHNSON, H.L. HUNT, CLINT MURCHISON, OIL DEPLETION ALLOWANCE, BELL HELLICOPTER, LADY BIRD'S RADIO STATION, HOWARD HUGHES, VIETNAM, HENRY CABOT LODGE, ALLEN DULLES, BAY OF PIGS, ARMY LSD EXPERIMENTS,

OPERATION PHOENIX, MILITARY COUP FOR WAR IN VIETNAM, EUGENE BRADING, HOWARD HUNT, DAVE PHILLIPS, DES FITZGERALD, 1963 SECRET SERVICE BRAKED TO A HALT, FAKED AUTOPSY PHOTOS AND X-RAYS, MARTIN LUTHER KING MURDERED, ROBERT F. KENNEDY MURDERED. RICHARD NIXON WINS.

WAR CONTINUES. GERALD FORD, of the the WARREN COMMISSION

named Vice President, NIXON RESIGNS FORD PRESIDENT

etc etc etc

This is a capsule of cultural and political idioms and tropes I was exposed to growing up in the 1960s and 1970s...I hope it is helpful, I know the FORUM is very healthy for SHANET CLARK...

John and I were discussing Pierre Bourdieu's views on class.

I think sociology is useful in understanding the mindset of these players.

The Politics and Economics are important, but people see themselves

as being in a certain class. The entitlement, the arrogance,

willful blindness, ingrained coarseness...

this is the habitus, the mental landscape

of the COWBOY.

[Re:Carl Oglesby THE COWBOY VERSUS YANKEE WAR]

Secrecy, an priviness and sense of authority over illegal and clandestine operations, the ability to change and shape the facts and records...

these powers lead to a new and alien group, a class of people set apart,

overly willing to use, enjoy, deny the reality of and yet revel in the use of violence.

Of course JFK 11/22/63, Vietnam War and today's Gulf War and the Global War on Terror (sic) are linked, via these Ford Presidency era political players.

CHENEY, WOLFOWITZ, PERLE, RUMSFELD, BUSH fils

form a sociological habitus or separated class based mindset.

Merged with TEXACO, HALLIBURTON and the PENTAGON'S private corporate and revolving door interests.

Bush Rumsfeld and CHeney are the activists that emerged to rule the USA after the fall of the counterweight, the Soviet Union.

Far more radically activist than Reagan, Nixon or Eisenhower,

The present regime is the proximate and functioning heir to the illegal operations, plans and programs exposed on these historical threads.......

Edited February 23, 2005 by Shanet Clark

[Chuck Lacourrege]

Just to cast my vote. It was Lee Harvey Oswald alone.

[Shanet Clark]

Thanks for that .... (?) ...

From a recent post, on the ballistics model > > > > > > > > > >

So much of the problem is in an accurate estimation of the wounds,

on which to base our ballistics model.

The Warren commission and HSAC material is compromised and mutually

exclusive. The right temple wound is generally interpreted to be a back to

front tangential wound by the "lone gunman" supporters, but it is seen

as a front to back tangential temple wound by traditional "grassy knoll"

The Bullet into the back didn't penetrate or exit, so it wasn't super high power,

maybe it was hollow or even mercury filled?

I believe in an early forward originating .22 shot to JFK's throat, although

AL says that any shot would have been "for the Kill" --evidence points to

small caliber preliminary entry wound. Small caliber rifle from the front

The photos and X-raays apparently cover up a right temple entry wound

and a large rear lower skull exit wound. High powered rifle from the front.

Connally sustained two or three distinct bullet events, from a fairly high angle,

possibly all from the rear. His ribs, wrist and thigh damaged, but not mortally.

Possibly an Il Duce 6.5 with working sites from the rear.

Don Roberdeau's evidentiary map shows skull and bullet material downfield

from the limousine, originating from the Dallas Textile building, and Ms.

Gutierrez makes it clear that the Blood and Tissue pattern conforms to

a forward originating shot. Shots from front and back, headshots: skull forward, tissue backward.

High powered front and back fire.

Organized crime, when it comes together in an alliance to murder someone,

will often use multiple caliber weapons and multiple shots to make it clear

that more than one entity (crime family, motorcycle gang, capo) is taking

responsibility....multiple weapons, calibers and directions not only signifies a

tactical triangulation, but also multi-unit coalition of forces is involved.

(...or Lee Harvey Oswsald with a broken gun by himself... ?....)

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Here's my 5 pence worth.

Kennedy wins in 64. being a realist he pulls out of Vietnam within 18 months

As Kennedy see's it Nam is another Bay of Pigs on the lay away plan.

The proof? Kennedy stonewalled all requests from interested parties to commit

troops to Laos in 61, a steeping stone to Vietnam.

This makes key players doubt his nerve, & as corperate America need a war

to ramp up profits ;these stubborn refusals to play real-politik are un acceptable

In oct 63 Kennedy signs a document ordering a secret withdrawl of U.S advisors

This seals his fate.

Shortly after JFK's death LBJ orders naval raids that lead to the Tonkin

incident & so happily for all concerned on to war. Now if I could just prove it.

[Tim Gratz]

To Stephen Turner:

From Victor Marchetti, anti-CIA author of "The CIA and the Armies of Intelligence":

There was a fairly widespread belief that one reason Kennedy was assassinated was because he was going to get us out of Vietnam. Don't you believe it He was the CIA's kind of president, rough, tough, and gung-ho. Under Kennedy we became involved in Vietnam in a serious way, not so much militarily as through covert action. It is a fact that the United States engineered the overthrow of Ngo Dinh Diem, South Vietnam's premier, and Ngo Dinh Nhu, his powerful brother. A cable was sent out to the ambassador which said, "If Lou Conein goofs up [Lucien Conein was a key CIA operative in Saigon], it's his responsibility." So when E. Howard Hunt faked these memos and cables when he was working for the "plumbers" on behalf of President Nixon (and against the Democrats), he knew what he was doing. That was his defense, that he wasn't really forging or inventing anything. "Stuff like that really existed, but I couldn't find it," he said. Of course Hunt couldn't find it by that time the original documents were gone. But Hunt knew what he was doing.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Tim.

Would this be the same CIA, that Kennedy threatened to smash into

a thousand pieces, and scatter to the wind?

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Anybody care to here Mr Marchetti on how the jew's control Hollywood?

real lovely Anti Semetic stuff. I wouldn't believe this chump if he told me

water was wet! Cant get the sight to attach sorry,Google "Vitor Marchetti"

go to "The big Hollywood lie-Denying the jews control Hollywood" Next best

thing to an emetic.

[Tim Gratz]

Yes it would be. The same CIA that was assigned the primary responsibility for carrying out the Kennedys' Operation Mongoose campaign of terrorism and sabotage against Cuba.

I assume you also remember that Allen Dulles was selected for the Warren Commission at the specific request of Bobby Kennedy. See "The Assassination Tapes."

On another thread, I posted the many cimplimentary remarks JFK made about the CIA after the comment you quoted, which he made, of course, in reaction to the BOP fiasco.

I some times find it amusing that people can quarrel with the opinions of the people who were on the scene participating, who were "in the arena" in Teddy Roosevelt's words, whether it be Al Haig on the right; Joseph Califano in the center; or Victor Marchetti on the left.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Yes it would be.  The same CIA that was assigned the primary responsibility for carrying out the Kennedys' Operation Mongoose campaign of terrorism and sabotage against Cuba.

I assume you also remember that Allen Dulles was selected for the Warren Commission at the specific request of Bobby Kennedy.  See "The Assassination Tapes."

On another thread, I posted the many cimplimentary remarks JFK made about the CIA after the comment you quoted, which he made, of course, in reaction to the BOP fiasco.

I some times find it amusing that people can quarrel with the opinions of the people who were on the scene participating, who were "in the arena" in Teddy Roosevelt's words, whether it be Al Haig on the right; Joseph Califano in the center;  or Victor Marchetti on the left.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim.

Glad to bring a smile to your face.The problem is , i'm not aware that i've posted

any thing about Haig,or Califano.Now as reguard's Mr Marchetti,this is a guy

that belives some sort of Jewish cabal is running Hollywood,& that sinister

mossad agent's make sure the scripts don't critisise Isreal.If you want to belive

this guy is telling the truth about the CIA,Fine,personally I think a large dose of

sceptisism is in order.As for those "in the area"I may be wrong ,but you seem

to be saying that they are above critisism,or ,investigation.If that's the case

we might as well all pack up & go home.Earl ,Gerald,Mr Hoover &the gang

were certainly "in the area"They say Ossie did it,are you now supporting their

findings.

[Shanet Clark]

MEMBERS AND FORUM READERS:

In the late 1800s the nineteenth century experienced a wave of TERRORISM.

Vigilante groups, self appointed white males used violence to co-ordinate and drive anti-democratic and anti-republican representative theories of power onto the national political stage, where they remained through until today.

In San francisco, New orleans and New york city, violent and murderous elites took hard right reactionary race baiting political positions, while taking over local and state political structures. Anti Asian and Anti Irish Catholic rhetoric drove the organizations efforts, and the tradition of the Know Nothing runs through secret societies until this day.

Self appointed race baiting whiter than white rednecks with money combined in the 1850-1900 period and they recombined, as the reaction of the late 20th century recapped many of these themes.

Joseph Kennedy and his four sons were Irish Catholic political bosses from Boston, Massachusetts, and while some in the Cambridge Harvard MIT Beacon Hill circle accepted and welcomed the Kennedy's entrepot to political power, others

centered in New Haven, Wall Street, Michigan and greater Los Angeles opposed the rise of the Kennedy's sons.

Vigilante elites. This is the key, paramilitary assassinations were common in the racially loaded Victorian period, when Irish and Asian were non white ethnic groups, Catholic leaders were killed.

When John Kennedy took the 1960 election, over fellow Senator and Vice President Richard Nixon, the aggravated elements of the right brought militant reactionary illegal force to bear, and the constitution was overhauled with the new succession doctrine of EXECUTIVE REMOVAL, in a law originally composed by Senator Estes Kefauver, who died in 1963 of a heart attack and ratified by the States in 1967, in the year before Lyndon Baines Johnson stepped down.

ALexander Haig, National Security Adviser to President Ford, Protege of Henry Kissinger and General Douglas MacArthur, served as White House Chief of Staff during the transition of power in August 1974. Recent indiscretions committed by the Haig ego point to a role for Al Haig in the Bay of Pigs, BAYO EDDIE, OPERATION TILT, OPERATION EXECUTIVE ACTION, CHAOS, COINTELL COUNTER INTELLIGENCE PROGRAM the domestic joint agency disruption of American Society and our political state in the Cold War 1960s and 1970s.

Another PROGRAM FOR PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATION illegal domestic program was the INLET system, NSA MAIL COVER, FBI DOMESTIC BLACK BAG JOINT OPS,

and of course AM/LASH, ZR/RIFLE ZERO RIFLE and WH EXECUTIVE ACTION an illegal US domestic covert assassination team run by Howard Hunt out of Mexico City, but cooperating and coordinated by JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF, NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY, DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE, MARINE INTELLIGENCE and NAVAL INTELLIGENCE. Of course, marine intelligence is an oxymoron and very frightening entity, serving as the source for LEE HARVEY OSWALD, and his LEGEND.

The vigilantes of the anti Catholic reaction survived to mix with German rocket scientists and Nazi Pharmocological and Behavioural Psychologists in OPERATION ARTICHOKE which was a joint military illegal Domestic mind control, hypnosis and forced drugging PROGRAM.

Most famous of these was the MK/ULTRA, which combined PSYCHIC DRIVING or forced behavioural actions on witting ang unwitting individuals.

These forces, I believe came together to kill John Kennedy and overthrow our government through force and guile. RICHARD RUSSELL, Georgia Senator, Military and Intelligence Appriations Chair and Warren COmmission member, Exercised what enforcement and oversight which existed, which was nearly nil.

He and the Congress knew little of the PROGRAMS until November 1963.

Edited March 5, 2005 by Shanet Clark

[Steve Mullard]

Just to post a simplified version of events, in my opinion, wasn't JFK murdered because too many people had too much to lose? I guess I'm putting the blame firmly on the 'Old Guard' (and pick any 2 from groups & organisations such as the Oilmen, CIA, Mafia, and right-wing Government & military factions). They all had their grievances with JFK [and RFK for that matter] namely the proposed dismantling of the Vietnam war 'machine', the CIA, organised crime and of those vehemently against the Kennedy administration. Was it simply a case that the 'Old Guard' feared their billions of dollars and the empires they were building would be eroded away?

Who pulled the trigger? Not LHO that's for sure unless of course he was behind the fence about 30/40 yards away from the limo!! He was probably involved to some (minor) extent and was more than likely killed because he had too much information to divulge about the involvement of the CIA, FBI, et al and the many covert ops & dubious individuals he knew about.

Again a very simplified version is that up to 5 assassination 'teams' were in Dealey Plaza on 22 Nov, maybe from the military and/or the CIA. The fatal shot had all the signs of coming from an expert marksman when one considers just how close Jackie's head was to JFK's at the moment of impact, and no-one will ever convince me that it came from the Book Depository even though I'm no expert in determining the trajectory of a bullet!

I apologise for my 'amateur' ramblings here and hope my going over old ground and the obvious hasn't caused too much offence to anyone. I sincerely hope one day that the truth about the murder of JFK will eventually be told but somehow I think not....

[Pat Speer]

Yes it would be.  The same CIA that was assigned the primary responsibility for carrying out the Kennedys' Operation Mongoose campaign of terrorism and sabotage against Cuba.

I assume you also remember that Allen Dulles was selected for the Warren Commission at the specific request of Bobby Kennedy.  See "The Assassination Tapes."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have to consider the source, Tim. LBJ was fond of asking people how they would feel about blank and then as soon as they agreed, he would tell others that it was that person's idea. In his memoirs he talks about how it was Bobby's idea that he be sworn in in Dallas, when those near Bobby knew that that was ludicrous and that Bobby was offended by LBJ's behavior regarding the swearing-in. LBJ had simply asked Bobby about the procedure of swearing-in, and Bobby called Katzenbach to get the right words, and called LBJ right back. It was by no means his idea. Similarly, I believe it's clear that LBJ picked Dulles and McCloy, and ran them by Bobby, and then announced to all that they were Bobby's picks. It seems to me that if Bobby had really had his choice he would have picked liberal Democrats, the very people LBJ BANNED from the Commission.

On the other hand, outside of his complicity in keeping the assassination plots away from the Commission, I think Dulles did a decent job. He asked a number of intelligent questions of the autopsy doctors for instance, during their testimony. If he was part of some grand cover-up I think he would have probed a bit less.