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How did the capture of a live Lee Oswald change the plot?


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Good point. It could not have been a decision that LBJ made by himself. It was made in concert with all the right people. After all, LBJ heard those shots in Dallas, and even asked Hoover if any were aimed at him. (Exactly how many shots did he think "Oswald"might have fired, acquiring three targets - JFK, Connally, and LBJ - in the process?)

When I listened to the tapes of Johnson talking to J. Edgar, it seemed to me he was putting on an act. He sounded like a scared little kid, but I thought it was all BS between Hoover and Johnson.

What bothered me was the tape of Johnson talking to Jacqueline Kennedy. I think she called him to thank him for something and she sounded like a little girl and very alluring in that almost obscene voice she had. I understand she had carried out an investigation of her husband's death through Daniel Moynihan. Didn't any suspicion of Johnson set in at this time?

Kathy

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Good point. It could not have been a decision that LBJ made by himself. It was made in concert with all the right people. After all, LBJ heard those shots in Dallas, and even asked Hoover if any were aimed at him. (Exactly how many shots did he think "Oswald"might have fired, acquiring three targets - JFK, Connally, and LBJ - in the process?)

When I listened to the tapes of Johnson talking to J. Edgar, it seemed to me he was putting on an act. He sounded like a scared little kid, but I thought it was all BS between Hoover and Johnson.

What bothered me was the tape of Johnson talking to Jacqueline Kennedy. I think she called him to thank him for something and she sounded like a little girl and very alluring in that almost obscene voice she had. I understand she had carried out an investigation of her husband's death through Daniel Moynihan. Didn't any suspicion of Johnson set in at this time?

Kathy

LBJ, according to Madeleine, was incredibly turned on by any "purty" woman, including

Jackie. Although she despised him, I think there was a flirtation. If you listen to her

voice on the tapes, you can feel the taunt..."you got Jack, but you can't get Jackie!"

I bet he got his jollies fantasizing about her instead of the Bird.

Jack

(according to Madeleine, Lyndon never suffered erectile dysfunction, and was in a

constant state of arousal; sex was constantly on his mind.)

Edited by Jack White
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LBJ, according to Madeleine, was incredibly turned on by any "purty" woman, including

Jackie. Although she despised him, I think there was a flirtation. If you listen to her

voice on the tapes, you can feel the taunt..."you got Jack, but you can't get Jackie!"

I bet he got his jollies fantasizing about her instead of the Bird.

Jack

I don't think the Bird cared. Some women are like that. Have your fling, I don't have to deal with you, I'll just enjoy the money and prestige.

And I agree with you. Jackie was a sexy woman. And so beautiful she didn't need make-up, just her red or pink lipstick, and a blush of pink across her cheeks.

Kathy

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Cliff,

Abort teams?

Detonate hidden explosive charges via remote control at Love Filed as AF 1 is landing, or in the middle of DP at 12:15 PM.

No motorcade.

Follow up with behind-the-scenes hang-outs.

No black wall monument in DC.

The entire Abort Team myth doesn't pass the laugh test.

Charles

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Cliff,

Abort teams?

I refer to Tosh Plumlee's account, an example of which follows:

(quote on)

The abort team was put together very fast and was not very organized, as I have

stated in the past. MI seemed to be the main contact as well as sections within the

CIA that formed the team, TFW Sec-C, and dispatched the team to Dallas.

(quote off)

That's William Plumlee on this Forum, Oct. 17, 2004.

This is not a key point to my argument. It is wholly consistent with my argument,

but the cherry on top, at best.

A cherry with the stem attached, for easy removal.

Detonate hidden explosive charges via remote control at Love Filed as AF 1 is landing, or in the

middle of DP at 12:15 PM.

I've yet to glean this info from what I've read on the issue.

No motorcade.

Follow up with behind-the-scenes hang-outs.

No black wall monument in DC.

I am not one of those who buy the argument that JFK

was in control of American foreign policy at the time of his death. He was

AWOL on the Diem coup. In the realm of pure speculation, I see his Viet

withdrawl plans eventually getting sandbagged in the Gulf of Tonkin even if

he'd lived.

The entire Abort Team myth doesn't pass the laugh test.

Charles

I will give weight to your assessment going forward, Charles.

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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For clarification: I am aware of multiple "abort team" fables.

Also, my "detonate explosive charges" material is offered not as references to actual occurences, but rather as illustrations of two -- of many -- possible means of aborting the assassination that could have worked if the intent of such an operation was to save the president's life even at the expense of the lives of some of the mechanics on the scene.

Another possibility: Fire weapons behind the fence at 12:15 PM in such a manner as to abort the motorcade's passage and make certain that the abort team's E&E from the scene was facilitated.

And Cliff, the fact that we note substantive disagreements in these exchanges by no means limits their value or the enjoyment of the process.

Best,

Charles

Edited by Charles Drago
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...

The entire Abort Team myth doesn't pass the laugh test.

Charles

And, in fact, in another thread on the forum many people gave their opinions on whether or not they believe the abort story.

Not one said they believe it.

Although many parts of Tosh's story are intriguing, I never found the ABORT TEAM

portion credible. He said it failed because they arrived too late...but the lateness is

lacking in detail. If there were actually a real abort effort, I can think of dozens

of easy scenarios to disrupt the parade...some as easy as a phone call or some

random gunfire, assuming time enough. How about a phone call to a newspaper

or television station warning of a bomb in the triple underpass? Tosh never explained

HOW he was going to abort the assassination.

Jack

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...

The entire Abort Team myth doesn't pass the laugh test.

Charles

And, in fact, in another thread on the forum many people gave their opinions on whether or not they believe the abort story.

Not one said they believe it.

Ok.

This detracts not a whit from my point, however.

After all:

Somebody was behind the very-accurate rumors Underwood heard.

Somebody was behind the FBI teletype of 11/17/63 warning

of an assassination plot afoot in Dallas.

What do we make of the fact that the guy who heard all these definitive

rumors was a Democratic Party operative...

Tycoon A a Democrat, mayhaps?...

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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This is an easy one, Cliff.

Do you recall JFK noting shortly before the finale that, while indeed there were plotters in the weeds, there was no need to worry. "The Secret Service," he reportedly said, "have taken care of it."

Leaks happen. That's why we have plumbers.

How brilliant, if initially counter-intuitive: To significantly minimize you target's protection, flood the system well in advance of the real attempt with rumor upon rumor of assassination teams in place -- and not just in one city. In other words, cry wolf. Force the target to say, in essence, "What am I supposed to do, live in a bunker?"

Charles

Edited by Charles Drago
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This is an easy one, Cliff.

It's all easy at this point, where we seek not hard conclusions from the

evidence but consistencies.

No zero sum game afoot, eh? :secret

Do you recall JFK noting shortly before the finale that, while indeed there were plotters afoot, there was no need to worry. "The Secret Service," he reportedly said, "have taken care of it."

Leaks happen. That's why we have plumbers.

How brilliant, if initially counter-intuitive: To significantly minimize you target's protection, flood the system well in advance of the real attempt with rumor upon rumor of assassination teams in place -- and not just in one city. In other words, cry wolf. Force the target to say, in essence, "What am I supposed to do, live in a bunker?"

Charles

A very possible explanation.

I'm not inclined to dismiss any plausible explanation at this point. I'm looking

for consistencies in the evidence, not conclusions.

The only thing I can prove as a fact is that JFK was shot in the back around

the level of his 3rd thoracic vertebra.

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Allow me to cross post from Myra's "Can we really understand the murder of

President Kennedy, without understanding international drug trafficking?

Should have titled this thread " Can we really understand world politics without understanding international drug trafficking?"

It's the hidden history of our age.

Henrik Kruger, The Great Heroin Coup, ppg 191-2:

(quote on)

In my opinion the central manipulator in the whole narcotics scheme was the CIA,

or rather a faction within it. It is erroneous to treat the agency as a monolith. Various

lobbying groups have their own agents in the company, generating internal power

struggles that reflect political polarizations external to the CIA.

(quote off)

Among those "various lobbying groups" I'd include any number of transportation

tycoons.

Webster Tarpley & Anton Chaitkin, The Unauthorized Biography of George Bush,

Chapter 8b.

http://www.tarpley.net/bush8b.htm

(quote on, emphasis added)

During the years after the failure of the Bay of Pigs, [JM/WAVE] had as many as

3,000 Cuban agents and subagents, with a small army of case officers to direct

and look after each one. According to one account, there were at least 55 dummy

corporations to provide employment, cover, and commercial disguise for all these

operatives. There were detective bureaus, gun stores, real estate brokerages, boat

repair shops, and party boats for fishing and other entertainments. There was the

clandestine Radio Swan, later renamed Radio Americas. There were fleets of specially

modified boats based at Homestead Marina, and at other marinas throughout the

Florida Keys. Agents were assigned to the University of Miami and other educational

institutions.

The raison d'être of the massive capability commanded by Theodore Shackley was

now Operation Mongoose, a program for sabotage raids and assassinations to be

conducted on Cuban territory, with a special effort to eliminate Fidel Castro personally.

In order to run these operations from US territory, flagrant and extensive violation of

federal and state laws was the order of the day. Documents regarding the incorporation

of businesses were falsified. Income tax returns were faked. FAA regulations were

violated by planes taking off for Cuba or for forward bases in the Bahamas and

elsewhere. Explosives moved across highways that were full of civilian traffic. The

Munitions Act, the Neutrality Act, the customs and immigrations laws were routinely

flaunted. Above all, the drug laws were massively violated as the gallant

anti-communist fighters filled their planes and boats with illegal narcotics to be

smuggled back into the US when they returned from their missions. By 1963, the

drug-running activities of the covert operatives were beginning to attract attention.

JM/WAVE, in sum, accelerated the slide of south Florida towards the status of drug

and murder capital of the United States it achieved during the 1980's, when it became

as notorious as Chicago during Prohibition.

(quote off)

I think it's correct to consider the importance of the Golden Triangle opium trade

as a factor in JFK's death, as this thread has addressed, but I also think its a mistake

to overlook the prime importance Cuba once played in the world narcotics trade.

It wasn't so much the casinos and prostitution rackets the US Mob wanted back

from Castro, it was the Havana-to-Florida drug smuggling funnel that was coveted

more than anything.

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Tim,

You've hit the nail on the head with your selection of tense:

"It was the Havana-to-Florida drug smuggling funnel that was coveted more than anything." (emphasis added)

Of course I would add, "by powerful factions within the 'facilitator/false sponsor' level."

Back to tense: Can you imagine any international conglomerate worth the name that would not have had contingencies in place should its most valued business asset suddenly become compromised?

The "Havana-to-Florida drug smuggling funnel" was such an asset. So too were the Corsican middle men. But when it was decided to eliminate the latter in favor of more direct and profitable dealing within the Golden Triangle, the former became expendable.

Cuba had been ceded to JFK's world view. Its only values were as a bogeyman and as a false sponsor of the assassination -- the component that would insure the highest level plotters' security.

Southeast Asia could not and would not be lost.

Charles

Edited by Charles Drago
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