Was CE399 "Planted"?

[Tim Gratz]

Riddle: What is the difference between a gardener and a conspirator?

Answer: Gardeners plant flowers; conspirators plant bullets.

Almost all of us agree that the SBT is ridiculous. Most of us would agree that CE399 was probably planted, and many suspect good ole Jack Ruby did the planting.

Per the HSCA, its NAA "proved" CE399 was not planted (its antimony composition was quite consistent with the composition of fragments from Connally's wrist). But the NAA has now been all but demolished.

In discussing the bullet planting theory, VB argues: How could the conspirators be sure that someone would not discover the REAL M-C bullet that hit JFK, JC, or both? If it was, that would prove there was a conspiracy and they might get caught. Plus of course the person doing the "planting" might get caught in the act.

How do we respond to those arguments?

[Dawn Meredith]

Riddle: What is the difference between a gardener and a conspirator?

Answer: Gardeners plant flowers; conspirators plant bullets.

Almost all of us agree that the SBT is ridiculous. Most of us would agree that CE399 was probably planted, and many suspect good ole Jack Ruby did the planting.

Per the HSCA, its NAA "proved" CE399 was not planted (its antimony composition was quite consistent with the composition of fragments from Connally's wrist). But the NAA has now been all but demolished.

In discussing the bullet planting theory, VB argues: How could the conspirators be sure that someone would not discover the REAL M-C bullet that hit JFK, JC, or both? If it was, that would prove there was a conspiracy and they might get caught. Plus of course the person doing the "planting" might get caught in the act.

How do we respond to those arguments?

I don't think the M-C was ever used to shoot the occupants of the motercade, so there was no chance of finding bullets from it. And also the car was immediatedly taken to be "cleaned", destroying crucial evicence.

Of course the CE 399 was planted.

Dawn

[Michael Clark]

When I was in the market for a hunting rifle (ultimately buying a 30-06), I was curious as to what the oft-called "thirty-odd-six" meant; I wanted to know why it was referred to as such. I quickly found-out that the designation referred to "30'caliber, 1906". I never found-out why the word "odd" was used, but I don't think that is relevant. The 30-06 round superseded the 30-03 round of 1903;  a very short life for a military round. 

For the purpose of this post I am just going to focus on the shape of the different bullets, the rounded 30-03 bullet vs. the pointed 30-06 "spitzer" bullet. I read that that the change to the pointed bullet was the result of a technological breakthrough that made the manufacture of the pointed round less expensive and troublesome; the knowledge of the desirability in ballistic characteristics of the pointed round having been known some time before. The technological manufacturing breakthrough is not often noted when looking into this and the improved ballistics are more often cited for the reason for the change in 1906.

It is often said that that the change or choice to or from a round to a pointed bullet has to do with the characteristics of the wounds inflicted by either round and what kind of wounds were desired on the battlefield. I don't believe that this is the case. I believe that the Italian armaments were simply tooled-up for their round nosed bullets and rifles, and that they were simply behind the times throuought the manufacturing life of the 6.5mm MC rifle and cartridge.

The point is that the round-nosed bullet was an odd-duck by the time someone bought that MC rifle as that weapon of choice for Alek Hidell.

As long as no identifiable bullets of fragments of bullets were found in the victims, the car, or elsewhere, the planting of a 6.5 mm MC round, somewhere, would narrow the scope of any investigation and field of possible perpetrators and weapons. A pointed 30-06 round, or any other pointed round, if still identifiable, would leave a much larger range of possible weapons as being suspected in the assassination. (Regardless of what Rachel Maddow reports below).

To me, this explains why several weapons were reported to have been found. Once it was clear that no identifiable, pointed Spitzer rounds were going to be recovered, all that had to be done was to get a 6.5mm round planted, and get an Alek Hidell library card to the appointed patzy. Perhaps, LHO thought he was delivering that card to someone else, as he made his way around Dallas after the shooting, or to the Texas Theater; perhaps he was duped. (Edit: I thought there was a non-photo Hidell card, but I don't see one. The point remains that a Hidell card could place blame on anyone with such a card).

I'm no expert on this stuff, but I have not seen some of my above points having been made before; so I thought I would offer them up.

Cheers,

Michael

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Michael Clark]

 

[Mark Knight]

It was referred to as a " thirty-AUGHT-six," as 100 years ago people referred to the year as "AUGHT six," rather than "OH six," as we currently do. There was no "ODD" involved in the common name for the .30-06 rifle or cartridge.

[Michael Clark]

3 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

It was referred to as a " thirty-AUGHT-six," as 100 years ago people referred to the year as "AUGHT six," rather than "OH six," as we currently do. There was no "ODD" involved in the common name for the .30-06 rifle or cartridge.

Thanks, I am only going by how people speak the term. When I lived in a Vermont, I heard the "Aught". Here in NY I hear "odd" more often. To be sure, I am not frequently around a lot of gun owners and enthusiasts.

Cheers,

Michael

[Mark Knight]

3 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Thanks, I am only going by how people speak the term. When I lived in a Vermont, I heard the "Aught". Here in NY I hear "odd" more often. To be sure, I am not frequently around a lot of gun owners and enthusiasts.

Cheers,

Michael

I've been around guns all my life. My grandfather, my father and I were all hunters. So "thirty-aught-six" is a term I've been familiar with for around 55 years.

[Michael Clark]

A relevant thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/18625-ce-573-walker-bullet-not-the-real-bullet/&page=2

 

[George Sawtelle]

Why plant a bullet when the extent of the wounds are not known? Makes no sense.

Not even the doctors who first attended Kennedy knew the full extent of his injuries. 

I believe CE399 fell out of Kennedy´s body as doctors or nurses tried to resuscitate him while he was on a stretcher and moved from the limo to the operating room.

[Michael Clark]

4 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said:

Why plant a bullet when the extent of the wounds are not known? Makes no sense.

Not even the doctors who first attended Kennedy knew the full extent of his injuries. 

I believe CE399 fell out of Kennedy´s body as doctors or nurses tried to resuscitate him while he was on a stretcher and moved from the limo to the operating room.

I guess it's just a matter of where one is with their theory. The WC says it fell out of Connally's leg.

It sounds like you would say that CE399 never got as far as Connally.

I would say that no one fired the Mainlicher Carcano at the motorcade.

Cheers,

Michael

[George Sawtelle]

Michael

I don´t believe anything the government says about CE399. The government covered up the investigation. Anything they say is suspect and can´t be believed.

 

[Michael Clark]

1 minute ago, George Sawtelle said:

Michael

I don´t believe anything the government says about CE399. The government covered up the investigation. Anything they say is suspect and can´t be believed.

 

Roger that sir. It does sound like you believe that CE399 was fired at JFK and was barely, if at all, damaged (pristine).

Cheers,

Michael

[George Sawtelle]

Michael

Yes. The back wound was only 1-2 inches deep. It may have tumbled and entered backward. The small dent in the bullet could have been caused by it stricking bone.

[David Josephs]

CE399 comes into existence when SS Chief Rowley hands Elmer Todd a bullet to be brought to the FBI Lab.

In a couple of places the time CE399 is handed to Frazier APPEARS to be 7:30pm.

Yet in the envelope signed by all the necessary players - after the evidence reaches the FBI I may add - it states Todd did not take possession of what would become CE399, now referred to as Q1, until 8:50pm, over an hour and 20 mins AFTER he delivers a bullet to the FBI.

So CE399 "was" planted, just not at Parkland ...the bullet recovered and seen by Nurse Bell, Tomlinson, Wright and SA Johnson that evening was a pointed-nose bullet and only becomes CE399 when Todd leaves Rowley's office.

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by David Josephs

[Ken Davies]

Mr. Joseph's,

You are right again.

In regard to the aught six,  Mr. Knight is correct. My

grandfather, who was born in 1905,owned a 30.06 for his last 45 years. No one in our neck of the universe called it an odd six.

Bon soir!