Evan Burton Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 Jack, A group of science enthusiasts I am involved with are planning to try and give a credible effort for the Moon Challenge. In order to ensure that the imagery obtained from such an endeavour is not claimed as being "faked", I'd like you to be involved so as to confirm the validity of imagery taken from the lunar surface from our planned probe. Will you subject our efforts - prior, during, and after - to scrutiny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gary Loughran Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 As an aside to the threads main aim. That's very interesting Evan. Are you getting sponsorship? I'm sure such an endeavour is very expensive. If you have a website or blog to keep folk updated could you publish it here, I'd like to see how this goes. Best of luck with everything, I am very impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Burton Posted September 14, 2007 Author Share Posted September 14, 2007 As an aside to the threads main aim.That's very interesting Evan. Are you getting sponsorship? I'm sure such an endeavour is very expensive. If you have a website or blog to keep folk updated could you publish it here, I'd like to see how this goes. Best of luck with everything, I am very impressed. It's basically a group of science geeks. Some of us know people in the aerospace industry, and are going to look for sponsorship. The forum we belong to also is part of a national TV network, so we are hoping they will give us - at a minimum - publicity in order to generate funds. We are planing to be the original "shoestring" entry. I want our landing site to be one of the original Apollo sites so that we can take images of the artifacts. That's why I'd like Jack to be involved, to verify the integrity of the visual record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Daman Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 I want our landing site to be one of the original Apollo sites so that we can take images of the artifacts. I am intrigued that you and the rest of the "geeks" believe that you would be able to produce the technology to actually soft land a craft on the moon , for the purpose of taking pictures of an alleged Apollo landing site . Which makes me wonder ... If you and your friends can accomplish this amazing technical feat , then why doesn't NASA land a craft at an alleged Apollo landing site and take pictures of the stuff they claim was left behind ? ... I wonder if they think that possibly not many people would believe them and that their photos would be as faked as the first time around . That's why I'd like Jack to be involved, to verify the integrity of the visual record. You're kidding , right ? ... Now I do believe I've heard everything ! Excuse me for questioning your motives here , but aren't you one of the main players in character assassinating Jack, by claiming that all of his Apollo studies are incorrect and therefore he is not very adept at analyzing photographs ? If you really believe that , then why on Earth ( or possibly the Moon ) would you want Jack to "verify the integrity of the visual record " , of something which you may never accomplish ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Burton Posted September 14, 2007 Author Share Posted September 14, 2007 I'm inviting Jack to be involved because if the project is successful and images of the Apollo relics are returned, Jack, you, and others will cry "FAKE!". If Jack verifies the integrity of the images, he would have to admit they were genuine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 I want our landing site to be one of the original Apollo sites so that we can take images of the artifacts. I am intrigued that you and the rest of the "geeks" believe that you would be able to produce the technology to actually soft land a craft on the moon , for the purpose of taking pictures of an alleged Apollo landing site . Which makes me wonder ... If you and your friends can accomplish this amazing technical feat , then why doesn't NASA land a craft at an alleged Apollo landing site and take pictures of the stuff they claim was left behind ? ... I wonder if they think that possibly not many people would believe them and that their photos would be as faked as the first time around . That's why I'd like Jack to be involved, to verify the integrity of the visual record. You're kidding , right ? ... Now I do believe I've heard everything ! Excuse me for questioning your motives here , but aren't you one of the main players in character assassinating Jack, by claiming that all of his Apollo studies are incorrect and therefore he is not very adept at analyzing photographs ? If you really believe that , then why on Earth ( or possibly the Moon ) would you want Jack to "verify the integrity of the visual record " , of something which you may never accomplish ? No worry, Duane...I know a "set-up" when I see one. I am familiar enough with magician's illusions that I am sure they could show a herd of elephants on the moon if they wanted to. It is the old lawyer's trick...don't ask a question unless you already know the answer. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Daman Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 I'm inviting Jack to be involved because if the project is successful and images of the Apollo relics are returned, Jack, you, and others will cry "FAKE!". If Jack verifies the integrity of the images, he would have to admit they were genuine. You really do live in the land of Geekdom by the river Denial , don't you ? Jack ... I do believe that Evan is going for the $$$ 30 mil. .... Check out this google contest .... and we're suppossed to believe that manned missions landed on the Moon almost 40 years ago !?!? ...Check out the last line ... $ 50 mil. is the big prize ! ............................................ Google Sponsors $30 Million Moon Contest By ALICIA CHANG, AP Science Writer (AP) -- Google Inc. is bankrolling a $30 million out-of-this-world prize to the first private company that can safely land a robotic rover on the moon and beam back a gigabyte of images and video to Earth, the Internet search leader said Thursday. If the competition produces a winner, it would prove a major boon to the emerging private spaceflight industry and mark the first time that a nongovernment entity has flown a lunar space probe. Google partnered with the X Prize Foundation for the moon challenge, which is open to companies around the world. The Santa Monica-based nonprofit prize institute is best known for hosting the Ansari X Prize contest that led to the first manned private spaceflight in 2004. The race to the moon won't be easy or cheap. Teams have to raise money to build a roaming spacecraft that will be tough enough to survive a landing and have the smarts to complete a set of tasks. Each rover must also be equipped with high-definition video and still cameras to document the journey. The rules call for a spacecraft to trek at least 1,312 feet across the lunar surface and return a package of data including self-portraits, panoramic views and near-real time videos. Participants are also responsible for securing a launch vehicle for the probe, either by building it themselves or contracting with an existing rocket company. Whoever accomplishes the feat by the end of 2012 will receive $20 million. If there is no winner, the purse will drop to $15 million until the end of 2014 when the contest expires. There is also a $5 million second-place prize and $5 million in bonus money to teams that go beyond the minimum requirements. Details of the Google X Prize are to be revealed at the WIRED Nextfest technology show in Los Angeles. The competition comes at a time of revived interest in lunar exploration among foreign governments since the Cold War space race. Governments including the United States and those in Europe and Asia are gearing up to return to the moon. Japan's space agency, JAXA, plans to launch its long-delayed orbiter SELENE from a remote Pacific Island on Friday. NASA next year will rocket a lunar orbiter and impactor, the first of several lunar robotic projects before astronauts are sent to the moon next decade. Government lunar missions can cost upward of hundreds of millions of dollars, but the X Prize Foundation and Google hope the private sector can do it for considerably less. The partnership between Google and the X Prize Foundation comes as no surprise. Earlier this year, Google co-founder Larry Page hosted a star-studded charity auction for the foundation at the company's Mountain View headquarters. Page is a trustee of the X Prize Foundation. Google has had previous forays into space albeit via the Internet by launching Google Mars and Google Earth, Web browser-based mapping tools that give users an up-close, interactive view with the click of a mouse. The X Prize Foundation is also holding competitions in rapid genetic decoding and creating super-efficient vehicles, but the moon prize is by far the largest in its history since it was founded in 1995. The Google X Prize is second richest space prize, next to the $50 million pot being dangled by hotel magnate Robert Bigelow to any American team that can rocket a MANNED spacecraft into orbit by 2010.... http://www.physorg.com/news108910808.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Burton Posted September 14, 2007 Author Share Posted September 14, 2007 The offer has been made but I knew Jack wouldn't accept it, because it means he risks having his beliefs challenged. He won't do that. Instead, he'll continue to cry foul. The offer will, though, remain open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Daman Posted September 14, 2007 Share Posted September 14, 2007 Evan .... I really can't speak for Jack , but if you and your friends are able to soft land a craft on the real lunar surface , and even manage to land it on top of an alleged Apollo landing site , and are also able to take videos or still photographs of one of those alleged sites , then I don't think wild horses could keep Jack away from giving you his professional opinion about those particular photos .... BTW , do you plan to land your space craft by 2010 , to win the 30 mil ? ... Or like NASA , will it have to wait until 2020 ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Greer Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 Which makes me wonder ... If you and your friends can accomplish this amazing technical feat , then why doesn't NASA land a craft at an alleged Apollo landing site and take pictures of the stuff they claim was left behind ? ... I wonder if they think that possibly not many people would believe them and that their photos would be as faked as the first time around . Several reasons I think. Firstly, it doesn't behove NASA to prove something they achieved nearly 40 years ago. Secondly, would they really be able to get funding for that purpose? I doubt it as there was a furore over $15,000 for a book explaining many of the regular HB questions. Thirdly, the small fraction of people who don't believe Apollo happened are hardly going to be convinced by new photos from NASA when they think the other 20,000 or so are all fakes. I'm not surprised you're scoffing at this programme even before it's got off the ground (literally!) - time to start getting your excuses in early! I think it's a really exciting project. Whether the prize money will cover the expense I doubt, but I suspect it's there to generate interest. Going to be an exciting few years from now through to 2020! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Burton Posted September 15, 2007 Author Share Posted September 15, 2007 Dave, The common consensus is that the prize money will barely cover costs. If our group is going to have any hope at all, we'll need sponsorship. Quite contrary to Duane's beliefs, we intend to draw heavily on NASA experience, as well as experience in the Lunokhod programme. No need to reinvent the wheel, or spend time / money on studies which have already been conducted. We hope to use a combination of innovation and modern technology to achieve the goals. Even if we don't win, the experience of being involved in such an endeavour is going to be fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Greer Posted September 15, 2007 Share Posted September 15, 2007 Dave,The common consensus is that the prize money will barely cover costs. If our group is going to have any hope at all, we'll need sponsorship. Quite contrary to Duane's beliefs, we intend to draw heavily on NASA experience, as well as experience in the Lunokhod programme. No need to reinvent the wheel, or spend time / money on studies which have already been conducted. We hope to use a combination of innovation and modern technology to achieve the goals. Even if we don't win, the experience of being involved in such an endeavour is going to be fantastic. Good luck with the challenge, really hope it comes off. Make sure you keep us all posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Daman Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 (edited) Several reasons I think. Firstly, it doesn't behove NASA to prove something they achieved nearly 40 years ago. Secondly, would they really be able to get funding for that purpose? I doubt it as there was a furore over $15,000 for a book explaining many of the regular HB questions. Thirdly, the small fraction of people who don't believe Apollo happened are hardly going to be convinced by new photos from NASA when they think the other 20,000 or so are all fakes.I'm not surprised you're scoffing at this programme even before it's got off the ground (literally!) - time to start getting your excuses in early! I think it's a really exciting project. Whether the prize money will cover the expense I doubt, but I suspect it's there to generate interest. Going to be an exciting few years from now through to 2020! Firstly , it doesn't behove nasa to try to prove something which they couldn't prove nearly 40 years ago , or even now. Secondly , would they really be able to get funding again to do something that they faked the first time around ? ...Probably not . ... As for their feeble excuse as to why the Moon hoax 'debunk' book was pulled , you can't possibly really believe that a trivial $15,000 was the real problem , can you ? Thirdly , the "small fraction of people who don't believe Apollo happened " equate to MANY MILLIONS of people from all walks of life and from all over the world ... So don't try to trivilize those numbers , or those people , with your typical condescending tone .... I will scoff at any space program that "geeks" think they can accomplish , while the biggest space agency in the world , NASA , otherwise known as Never A Straight Answer , can't . If you consider watching World War III unfold exciting , then yeah , the next few years from now through to 2020 should be a blast ! Edited September 16, 2007 by Duane Daman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Greer Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Several reasons I think. Firstly, it doesn't behove NASA to prove something they achieved nearly 40 years ago. Secondly, would they really be able to get funding for that purpose? I doubt it as there was a furore over $15,000 for a book explaining many of the regular HB questions. Thirdly, the small fraction of people who don't believe Apollo happened are hardly going to be convinced by new photos from NASA when they think the other 20,000 or so are all fakes.I'm not surprised you're scoffing at this programme even before it's got off the ground (literally!) - time to start getting your excuses in early! I think it's a really exciting project. Whether the prize money will cover the expense I doubt, but I suspect it's there to generate interest. Going to be an exciting few years from now through to 2020! Firstly , it doesn't behove nasa to try to prove something which they couldn't prove nearly 40 years ago , or even now. Secondly , would they really be able to get funding again to do something that they faked the first time around ? ...Probably not . ... As for their feeble excuse as to why the Moon hoax 'debunk' book was pulled , you can't possibly really believe that a trivial $15,000 was the real problem , can you ? Surely you've heard of the Constellation programme? You know, NASAs new programme for a return to the moon? The first source I found showed that in 2006 NASA has been awarded over $1,000,000,000 dollars for their Constellation programme. Source. I think the $15,000 would have been a waste of money, because Apollo conspiracists either wouldn't have read it, or wouldn't have believed it because it was funded by NASA. In the words of Scientific American, it's akin to paying $15,000 to prove the world is round. And conspiracists at the time were using it as proof that NASA had something to hide! ("Why don't they answer our questions? They've got something to hide... They ARE answering our questions, they MUST have something to hide! No, they've decided against it. They really DO have something to hide!") Thirdly , the "small fraction of people who don't believe Apollo happened " equate to MANY MILLIONS of people from all walks of life and from all over the world ... So don't try to trivilize those numbers , or those people , with your typical condescending tone .... Condescending? Moi? Try telling that to the billions of people who know Apollo happened. I will scoff at any space program that "geeks" think they can accomplish , while the biggest space agency in the world , NASA , otherwise known as Never A Straight Answer , can't . Scoff away. I'm sure many others are genuinely interested at what human beings can achieve when facing difficult challenges. I see it as part of the human esprit de coeur. You see it as something to treat with contempt and derision. Vive la difference! If you consider watching World War III unfold exciting , then yeah , the next few years from now through to 2020 should be a blast ! No, I was referring explicitly to the lunar ventures, publicly and privately funded, by various different countries, manned and unmanned, which are planned in the next few years. What you're referring to is anyone's guess. Japanese edge closer to a manned mission, manned base planned by 2025 $100,000,000 for a trip to the moon anyone? Chinese Moon Mission Plans Indian first moon mission 2008, possible manned landing by 2020 NASAs Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter planned for 2008 NASAs Constellation Programme Google Lunar Xprize First British Lunar Mission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ulman Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Evan- Sounds like fun! As for convincing the Apollo Hoax charlatans - good luck. No hope for that. As is evident from other threads here, conspiracy believers of any ilk are convinced that the CIA/NWO/Masons/whatever are omnipotent and will corrupt any effort to find the "truth". For the casual person who isn't sure that Apollo was real or not, any images need to be sent back to earth via an open protocol that anyone with a minimal hardware setup can decode and view. Some quick questions? Do you have any idea how many groups are planning to compete for the X-prize? Does using a previous NASA Design, such as MER or Sojourner, count towards "private" exploration? Has your group thought about who's launch system you'll likely use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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