First Generation Critics of the Warren Report

[Cliff Varnell]

Cliff,

If you want to go back and forth on this, I will. I was going to leave it alone until you brought up my reference to you and poker totally outside of the context of the example I was making.

This thread was supposed to be about John Kelin's book and the early researchers. Not Jefferson Morley, Anthony Summers, or Vincent Bugliosi. Nor is it about the current state of research, and your views of same.

My point was to show how far from the original research we've come, and I

wonder if this situation extended to John Kelin's book on the original

researchers. I see people come on this Forum patting the original researchers

on the back while utterly ignoring their research.

I'm trying to find out if this is true of Mr. Kelin's book.

Cliff Varnell: I asked a question about Salandria, and stated my reason for asking it.

Michael Hogan: Cliff, you didn't ask a question at all. You made several statements. And you made

an unwarranted assumption that Salandria might not be in the book:

"Vincent Salandria wrote a nice blurb for the book, but I didn't get the

impression that Salandria was in the book.

If that's the case I may not buy it."

The "if" would seem to raise a question, would it not?

You're splitting hairs, Michael.

Cliff Varnell: I asked two questions about the book, and explained why I asked those questions.

Michael Hogan: You did not.

Both my use of the word "if" and my use of "?" certainly smack of questions.

John Kelin asked if he'd left anybody out and I asked -- "Gaeton Fonzi?"

Cliff, John Kelin did not ask if he'd left anybody out. He said he hoped that he didn't. To me there is a difference.

If you want to characterize what people say without quoting them, at least be accurate.

I stand corrected. Another distinction without a difference, imo.

The reason "the war drags on" is because "instant-expert" newbies and their

"new perspectives" ignore the earliest research in the case.

Yet when a new book comes out on that very subject, you threaten not to buy it.

Having spent the better part of a grand to attend the "Cracking the Case" conference

I'm a little leery about claims made by anybody.

That's why I'm discussing it here, Michael.

We've gone backwards, Michael. All I want to know is if I'm going to spend

money on something that is actually going to move us forward again

Cliff, you seem to have a particular view as to what constitutes evidence in this case. If you expect Kelin's book to move everyone forward in lockstep with you, I'd wager you're bound to be disappointed. Save your money.

It would be nice if Kelin moved in lockstep with Salandria and Fonzi, since

they point out the prima facie case for conspiracy.

I'm hoping he does. Then I'll spend my dough on his book.

See how easy this is?

Cliff Varnell:Due diligence. Works for me...

Michael Hogan: Normally your posts do exhibit due diligence. However, I didn't see any from you

at the beginning of this thread. You could have spent a minute or two with Google before promoting

the idea that Salandria might not appear in the book simply because of what you read on Amazon.

That would have been due diligence Cliff.

I wasn't "promoting" anything any more than Jack White was with his statement

about Mary.

And I still haven't seen my question about Fonzi answered.

[Michael Hogan]

I wasn't "promoting" anything any more than Jack White was with his statement

about Mary.

Yes. And this is what I said about that:

The book is 608 pages and obviously well-researched and documented. As I said to Cliff about Salandria, Mary Ferrell HAS to be in that book. Just because she was not listed in the publicity blurb is no reason to believe she could have been omitted.

Jack had the good sense to ignore me.

You're a good guy Cliff, and I agree with many of your views including those about Salandria, Fonzi and Larry Hancock.

All the best wishes for a good Christmas and New Year.

Edited December 24, 2007 by Michael Hogan

[Cliff Varnell]

I wasn't "promoting" anything any more than Jack White was with his statement

about Mary.

Yes. And this is what I said about that:

The book is 608 pages and obviously well-researched and documented. As I said to Cliff about Salandria, Mary Ferrell HAS to be in that book. Just because she was not listed in the publicity blurb is no reason to believe she could have been omitted.

Jack had the good sense to ignore me.

You're a good guy Cliff, and I agree with many of your views including those about Salandria, Fonzi and Larry Hancock.

All the best wishes for a good Christmas and New Year.

The same to you, my friend!

I take your point as to my hastiness in this instance, and I will be purchasing John Kelin's book.

Happy Holidays all!

[Charles Drago]

Friends,

A sympathetic history of the First Generation of WC critics was long overdue when John Kelin published PFAFG. His work is, in my estimation, honest, comprehensive, literate, and in all respects a significant contribution to the struggle for justice.

John readily acknowledges the glaring absence of Mary Ferrell from his pages. But who among us is ready to fault him for failing to draw out, let alone capture, the essence of that remarkable, elusive woman?

Mary flattered me with friendship and repeatedly stunned me with support. I last heard her voice when I called her hospital room during the final illness. Her mind was focused, her emotions were controlled. She maintained her strength and optimism throughout.

But for all that Mary revealed of herself over the years, she barely scratched the surface.

As I may have noted elsewhere on these cyber-pages, Mary Farrell was possessed of the most powerful and refined intellect I have ever encountered. I became convinced of this at a classic MF hotel suite soirée during a Lancer conference.

Let me put it this way: Peter Dale Scott was taking notes -- especially after Mary had corrected certain of his errors of fact.

David Mantik was literally struck dumb when Mary told him, "I really enjoyed you today." It was left to me to break the ice by asking, "When was the last time a woman said those words to you, Mantik?"

Laughing out loud, he responded, "It's been so long, it's not even in the memory banks!"

And George Michael Evica, who also was present that night, who loved Mary deeply, and who works with her now, long ago had informed me of how he stood in awe of her mind.

Why bring this up here?

Because like all of us, John Kelin took from Mary Ferrell nothing more or less than what she was willing to give. So don't boycott PFAFG because of her absence from the body of the work.

Great job, John.

Charles Drago

[Courtney Redd]

I received another email from John Kelin today. He asked me to pass it along to all of you:

Someone wondered whether 1) Vince Salandria is in the book, and 2) Gaeton Fonzi is in the book. The answer to both is: Yes. I interviewed Gaeton four or five years ago and he was kind enough to supply me with a transcript of his historic Specter interview, the one he refers to in THE LAST INVESTIGATION. It makes up what I think is a very effective section of my book. I've also got a copy of his PHILADELPHIA magazine article that came from that 1966 interview -- I probably got that from him, too, but it might have come from Vince. It too figures into this section.

And yes, Bill Kelly, you may have either the credit or the blame for the fact that my book exists. As a reticent person I would not on my own have gone up to Vince after his speech, but you dragged me along with you. And that meeting made all the difference. I neglected to note this in the book's Intro, which morphs into a lengthy acknowledgments section. I should have. I do so now, in this much narrower arena.

Thanks in advance, Courtney.

John Kelin

[Peter McGuire]

My negativity is directed at the current state of JFK research.

My negativity is directed toward sites like Lancer which characterize the SBT as

"not probable" rather than "flat out impossible."

It seems that Lancer it taking a politically correct position on this. I have wrote to them about the position they take without a a response from them. I never go to their site anymore and was quite frankly confused about the great write-up about the founder who never seemed to take a stand on what really happened. All work is for not if you do not come to the conclusion , without reservation , that the SBT never happened. It is a non-starter and as you say " FLAT OUT IMPOSSIBLE" period.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Peter McGuire

[John Kelin]

Friends,

A sympathetic history of the First Generation of WC critics was long overdue when John Kelin published PFAFG. His work is, in my estimation, honest, comprehensive, literate, and in all respects a significant contribution to the struggle for justice.

John readily acknowledges the glaring absence of Mary Ferrell from his pages. But who among us is ready to fault him for failing to draw out, let alone capture, the essence of that remarkable, elusive woman?

Mary flattered me with friendship and repeatedly stunned me with support. I last heard her voice when I called her hospital room during the final illness. Her mind was focused, her emotions were controlled. She maintained her strength and optimism throughout.

But for all that Mary revealed of herself over the years, she barely scratched the surface.

As I may have noted elsewhere on these cyber-pages, Mary Farrell was possessed of the most powerful and refined intellect I have ever encountered. I became convinced of this at a classic MF hotel suite soirée during a Lancer conference.

Let me put it this way: Peter Dale Scott was taking notes -- especially after Mary had corrected certain of his errors of fact.

David Mantik was literally struck dumb when Mary told him, "I really enjoyed you today." It was left to me to break the ice by asking, "When was the last time a woman said those words to you, Mantik?"

Laughing out loud, he responded, "It's been so long, it's not even in the memory banks!"

And George Michael Evica, who also was present that night, who loved Mary deeply, and who works with her now, long ago had informed me of how he stood in awe of her mind.

Why bring this up here?

Because like all of us, John Kelin took from Mary Ferrell nothing more or less than what she was willing to give. So don't boycott PFAFG because of her absence from the body of the work.

Great job, John.

Charles Drago

[Jack White]

Hmmmmm....this morning I wrote a lengthy message regarding John Kelin's

fine work and related several anecdotes about Mary Ferrell. I posted it and

then left for Dallas to spend the day with some family. After returning tonight,

I checked the forum and my message somehow did not get posted.

Well, I won't bother with rewriting it, but I will repeat my welcome to John!

Jack

PS...I may reconsider when I have time and redo my anecdotes about

the remarkable Mary Ferrell.

[John Kelin]

Hi all,

I must keep this post short. I"m new to this group...I see my book has been discussed here over the last few days...I have been able to make partial replies through the kindness of Courtney Redd...but I'm having a devil of a time trying to learn this interface. Can't seem to find a way to post the messages I've written.

So this is one last attempt before I give up for the night and go to bed. On my frustration meter, I'm somewhere around an eight (scale of ten).

Just in case this goes through...thank you to all who have made comments about the book. Seeing all these remarks is simultaneously gratifying and scary.

If this thread lasts, and I can learn this %$* interface, I'll post some more.

John Kelin

Friends,

A sympathetic history of the First Generation of WC critics was long overdue when John Kelin published PFAFG. His work is, in my estimation, honest, comprehensive, literate, and in all respects a significant contribution to the struggle for justice.

John readily acknowledges the glaring absence of Mary Ferrell from his pages. But who among us is ready to fault him for failing to draw out, let alone capture, the essence of that remarkable, elusive woman?

Mary flattered me with friendship and repeatedly stunned me with support. I last heard her voice when I called her hospital room during the final illness. Her mind was focused, her emotions were controlled. She maintained her strength and optimism throughout.

But for all that Mary revealed of herself over the years, she barely scratched the surface.

As I may have noted elsewhere on these cyber-pages, Mary Farrell was possessed of the most powerful and refined intellect I have ever encountered. I became convinced of this at a classic MF hotel suite soirée during a Lancer conference.

Let me put it this way: Peter Dale Scott was taking notes -- especially after Mary had corrected certain of his errors of fact.

David Mantik was literally struck dumb when Mary told him, "I really enjoyed you today." It was left to me to break the ice by asking, "When was the last time a woman said those words to you, Mantik?"

Laughing out loud, he responded, "It's been so long, it's not even in the memory banks!"

And George Michael Evica, who also was present that night, who loved Mary deeply, and who works with her now, long ago had informed me of how he stood in awe of her mind.

Why bring this up here?

Because like all of us, John Kelin took from Mary Ferrell nothing more or less than what she was willing to give. So don't boycott PFAFG because of her absence from the body of the work.

Great job, John.

Charles Drago

[John Simkin]

Hi all,

I must keep this post short. I"m new to this group...I see my book has been discussed here over the last few days...I have been able to make partial replies through the kindness of Courtney Redd...but I'm having a devil of a time trying to learn this interface. Can't seem to find a way to post the messages I've written.

So this is one last attempt before I give up for the night and go to bed. On my frustration meter, I'm somewhere around an eight (scale of ten).

Just in case this goes through...thank you to all who have made comments about the book. Seeing all these remarks is simultaneously gratifying and scary.

If this thread lasts, and I can learn this %$* interface, I'll post some more.

John Kelin

Welcome to the forum. I have been trying to contact you by email but my messages have not been getting through. I believe Cortney has sent you my private email address. Please contact me as I want to use my website to give your book as much publicity as possible. I will also be able to help you with the technical problems of using the forum.

[Duke Lane]

...and maybe someday he'd do a follow-up volume with the second generation researchers. (hint, hint!)

For myself, I'll be simply satisfied that my name is in the book, even if it's not there in reference to me!

[Dixie Dea]

John Kelin...

Welcome to the forum. It's very nice to see you here. As I mentioned in an above post, I have enjoyed your book, Praise From A Future Generation, very much. Through the years, I have also enjoyed your Online Fair Play Pub, and still continue to refer back to it.

Thank you, Courtney, for contacting John and bringing him to join us.

______________

Dixie

[John Kelin]

John Kelin...

Welcome to the forum. It's very nice to see you here. As I mentioned in an above post, I have enjoyed your book, Praise From A Future Generation, very much. Through the years, I have also enjoyed your Online Fair Play Pub, and still continue to refer back to it.

Thank you, Courtney, for contacting John and bringing him to join us.

______________

Dixie

Thank you, Dixie.

I've had a little trouble learning how to use this site, and have lost a couple of posts in the process. I don't think I can re-create them now. But I will say, recalling the various comments to this thread, that of necessity I used a very narrow definition of "first generation critic", and it came down to those who started on or just after 11-22 or 11-23. For the most part, "starting" meant immediate skepticism and clipping newspaper articles.

I also wanted to invite anyone who might be interested to take a look at a video I posted to YouTube:

There is also a two-part video, each part about ten minutes long, also on YouTube.

Lastly, there is the book's web site:

http://home.comcast.net/~johnkelin/praise.html

Yesterday I wrote a thank-you to Charles Drago for his kind remarks. Alas, I was not successful posting that one and I'm not sure what corner of cyberspace that text wound up on. With that in mind I will now shut up and see if I can successfully post this.

John Kelin

[Courtney Redd]

Hi, John! Glad to see you here.

It is a little confusing at first but keep at it. If you have any questions, you can send private messages to someone and I'm sure they'd be glad to help you. To send someone a private message, click on their name and then in the box you'll see several different options, including "Send Message." Click on that and then you should be taken to another page where you can type the message and send it.

At any rate, I'm happy you're here.

[Cliff Varnell]

I received another email from John Kelin today. He asked me to pass it along to all of you:

Someone wondered whether 1) Vince Salandria is in the book, and 2) Gaeton Fonzi is in the book. The answer to both is: Yes. I interviewed Gaeton four or five years ago and he was kind enough to supply me with a transcript of his historic Specter interview, the one he refers to in THE LAST INVESTIGATION. It makes up what I think is a very effective section of my book. I've also got a copy of his PHILADELPHIA magazine article that came from that 1966 interview -- I probably got that from him, too, but it might have come from Vince. It too figures into this section.

And yes, Bill Kelly, you may have either the credit or the blame for the fact that my book exists. As a reticent person I would not on my own have gone up to Vince after his speech, but you dragged me along with you. And that meeting made all the difference. I neglected to note this in the book's Intro, which morphs into a lengthy acknowledgments section. I should have. I do so now, in this much narrower arena.

Thanks in advance, Courtney.

John Kelin

Thank you, John Kelin!

I ordered the book last Sunday and anticipate its arrival like a little kid waiting for Xmas.

The entire transcript of the Fonzi-Specter encounter -- a lovely slice of research heaven!

Words cannot express my gratitude, sir!